| janfields |
June 12, Open Forum
with web editor Jan Fields will begin in five minutes -- this is
open topic so any writing related question is
welcome.
|
| janfields |
Open forum begins in
two minutes...are your questions ready?
|
| janfields |
Welcome to June 12 Open
Forum with web editor Jan Fields -- I'm ready and willing to tackle
any questions you've got...notice I didn't say ABLE...but I'll do my
best.
|
| janfields |
I'm glad to see so many
folks here...school must be letting out.
|
| janfields |
I have a couple
leftover questions I want to jump on...left over from Ruth's
chat.
|
| janfields |
They were on topics
that we're really Ruth's thing.
|
| janfields |
So...thanks for
indulging me as I snag a couple.
|
| jan_fields |
Sylvia: How can a new
author attract and hire an illustrator for an early childhood
picture book?
|
| janfields |
Writers don't attract
illustrators.
|
| janfields |
Writers don't hire
illustrators.
|
| janfields |
Publishers hire
illustrators.
|
| janfields |
Which is good, because
a good illustrator who knows the business cost many thousands of
dollars.
|
| janfields |
A sad thing that makes
self-publishing so expensive if done right.
|
| janfields |
And one more reason why
self-published books tend to be dissed...often the author hires a
cheap illustrator
|
| janfields |
And no designer...and
it shows.
|
| janfields |
So...as a writer in
commercial publishing...you don't have to worry about the
illustrator.
|
| janfields |
Nice to have one thing
you don't have to think about.
|
| jan_fields |
Terrance: HAVE YOU EVER
SELF-PUBLISHED ANY OF YOUR STORIES. OR BEEN TEMPTED TOO? HAVE ANY
TIPS OR ADVICE ABOUT SELF-PUBLISHING.
|
| janfields |
Self-publishing
wouldn't have worked for Ruth because self-publishing quality
illustrations is expensive
|
| janfields |
Even when you're the
illustrator.
|
| janfields |
Plus, she writes for a
general audience.
|
| janfields |
Self-publishing tends
to work only when you're writing for a niche
|
| janfields |
that is easy to market
and target.
|
| janfields |
Which is why
self-publishing "success" stories tend to involve
|
| janfields |
Books that were
self-published and somehow brought before an editor
|
| janfields |
And later republished
by a commercial publisher, at which time they sold
copies.
|
| janfields |
And so most
self-publishing success stories turn into "who you know" stories
once you dig below the surface.
|
| mk1 |
Jan, is it O.K. to have
two equal main characters in an intermediate level story? I'm
thinking like brother and sister?
|
| janfields |
Yes, I've seen a
multiple main character stories.
|
| janfields |
Often series books have
multiple main characters.
|
| janfields |
One thing you tend to
see even in a multiple main character book, though,
|
| janfields |
Is that one character
tends to take the "point" and be slightly more main than the
other.
|
| janfields |
Ultimately making it a
story with a main character and a really really really strong
secondary character.
|
| janfields |
However, in stories
where there is viewpoint switch at the chapter by chapter basis, you
can share main character status.
|
| janfields |
It is not easy, but
it's do-able.
|
| janfields |
Now if you're writing a
magazine story.
|
| janfields |
Usually a story with
two main characters is told in dramatic viewpoint
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| janfields |
As if an outsider is
watching the brother and sister and reporting.
|
| janfields |
So you don't get in
either character's head
|
| janfields |
But you can stick with
either character.
|
| janfields |
That can work really
well in a strongly plot driven story.
|
| janfields |
Usually...most of the
time...you won't have a short story that head hops.
|
| janfields |
However, having said
that.
|
| janfields |
I recently read a scary
short story by Vivian vande Velde with two main
characters
|
| janfields |
One was a
ghost
|
| janfields |
And the other was her
"best friend" who really hated her.
|
| janfields |
It hopped back and
forth at the scene change.
|
| janfields |
And both were in first
person.
|
| janfields |
But in a single scene,
you had only one character in charge.
|
| janfields |
ccollier asks if it was
hard to understand the vande velde story.
|
| janfields |
Actually no, because
the viewpoint was totally different
|
| janfields |
The ghost considered
she and the other main character best friends...totally soul
maters.
|
| janfields |
The live girl hated the
dead girl and considered her a leach.
|
| janfields |
So you didn't have much
trouble telling who was talking.
|
| janfields |
And even in that story,
the ghost had slightly more drive on the story.
|
| janfields |
She was more in charge
because ultimately, she was in charge of the
action.
|
| janfields |
It's very hard to write
a totally balanced book/story with both characters really driving
the action.
|
| janfields |
And it can be really
easy to end up with a story where neither character drives the
action.
|
| janfields |
And they're both
passive (in terms of story force)
|
| janfields |
So, that's something
you always have to watch...the main characters have to be integral
in how the action unfolds.
|
| janfields |
Oh, also with the Vande
Velde story, there is a twist ending.
|
| janfields |
Which is another reason
only one of the characters can drive the action.
|
| janfields |
But since we had to see
that the driving character was totally not understanding the
relationship...thus creating a need for a split
viewpoint
|
| jan_fields |
mk1: So in each
chapter(book) or scene (short story) you have to know who is driving
the action
|
| janfields |
Well...you can have
action in a story that comes from outside.
|
| janfields |
But in each chapter or
scene, you'll usually only have one viewpoint character (or
less)
|
| janfields |
In modern stories
anyway
|
| janfields |
But you can't usually
have another character who's really driving the action but isn't the
main character.
|
| janfields |
For example, if the
parents are really in charge of eveything that
happens
|
| janfields |
But the kids are your
viewpoint characters, reacting to the parents
|
| janfields |
Then you have passive
characters...they aren't making their own choices.
|
| janfields |
They aren't driving the
plot.
|
| janfields |
The parents
are.
|
| janfields |
Even with a story like
Ellie McDoodle...Ruth's book...the trip is not the main character's
idea and she doesn't want to go.
|
| janfields |
So in that...in taking
a trip...she's not in charge...she isn't taking the trip
voluntarily.
|
| janfields |
But she chooses, in
effect, what kind of trip it will be...
|
| janfields |
by being difficult and
fighting with her cousin
|
| janfields |
And not liking
anything
|
| janfields |
So...though some events
aren't under her control, the scene by scene action is focused on
what she will do and how she will change the world around
her
|
| janfields |
Even if the world
around her just encompasses a seat in a vehicle.
|
| janfields |
A story that primarily
focuses on parents teaching their kids somethign would be a totally
different story.
|
| janfields |
The kids might be able
to choose whether they will learn or not
|
| janfields |
But they aren't really
driving the story -- the parents are.
|
| janfields |
Another book I've seen
with two main characters...POWERS, a YA novel
|
| janfields |
The two characters are
in conflict
|
| janfields |
But it isn't a good
character/bad character conflict
|
| janfields |
It's more of a clash of
opposites...both capable of good and bad.
|
| janfields |
So the "driving" of the
story can switch back and forth between them at the
chapters.
|
| janfields |
And interesting thing
is that part of the conflict comes from each character's concern
over the other taking control.
|
| janfields |
So as you read a
specific character's viewpoint, that character tends to talk as if
the other character has all the power.
|
| janfields |
So, with a shared main
character spot, you can actually have both characters be wrong...and
only the reader figures out the real story.
|
| janfields |
So...that's a long
pontificating on shared main character.
|
| janfields |
Any other
questions?
|
| janfields |
Or shall I
sing?
|
| janfields |
La la la la la la
Laboom...la la BOOM...la la BOOM
|
| janfields |
Dancing is fun too...a
little tap, a little soft shoe.
|
| janfields |
What is soft shoe? Is
that like jazz? Or what?
|
| janfields |
Ahh...a
question!!
|
| mk1 |
In a series, like with my
brother and sister characters, can one be dominant in one story
(book) and the other one in another story/
|
| janfields |
Yeah, when you intend a
series of stories, you don't have to keep the same viewpoint
character.
|
| janfields |
For example, the
babysitter's club (no groaning) had a switch of viewpoint from book
to book.
|
| janfields |
So did the
Animorphs
|
| janfields |
With only two main
characters and one a boy, one a girl
|
| janfields |
Your switch book by
book can be a little trickier
|
| janfields |
Because it would be
easy for the whole style of the book to change.
|
| delima-e |
can you explain the books
that the story starts one page and
|
| delima-e |
then jumps all over the
book
|
| janfields |
Delima is talking about
the which-way books where the reader chooses the
storyline
|
| janfields |
by answering questions
that take him to new spots in the book.
|
| janfields |
Those books were
incredibly popular in the...hmmm....late 70s.
|
| janfields |
And are making a kind
of come back
|
| janfields |
The plots are virtually
always adventure or scary.
|
| janfields |
In the 70s books, the
viewpoint was "you" where you are a character.
|
| janfields |
In the books today, the
viewpoint is third person
|
| janfields |
And the reader isn't a
character, just a kind of "advisor" since we follow the reader's
plot path.
|
| janfields |
I actually just read
one of those to my daughter the other day.
|
| janfields |
In the 70s, those were
produced by packagers.
|
| janfields |
And written
work-for-hire
|
| janfields |
I am not sure about the
ones today.
|
| janfields |
You actually plot those
best in a flow chart...or maybe a series of index
cards
|
| janfields |
Because you end up with
a series of short stories
|
| janfields |
All with the same main
character and same beginning
|
| janfields |
But with different
paths according to which choice the reader makes.
|
| janfields |
Each story is just a
couple thousand words long ...sometime sless
|
| janfields |
And making the wrong
choice can sometimes be most unfortunate as the story ends with
something smashing the main character or eating him or
something.
|
| janfields |
usually there are only
about two of the stories that have a happy ending where the main
character maneuvers the dangers successfully.
|
| stephenie |
How do writers get
"hooked up" with book packagers?
|
| janfields |
Packagers usually
accept resumes and writing samples from writers.
|
| janfields |
Then if they like
you...they often ask you to "try out" for an idea they
have.
|
| janfields |
"Try out" is euphamism
for write a bunch of stuff for free.
|
| janfields |
You rarely get to
propose a project with a packager...usually you're being hired for
their project
|
| janfields |
And you work within
parameters of their choosing.
|
| janfields |
Pay can vary...I wrote
a packaged book this year for middle grade novel
|
| janfields |
I was offered a 300
word picture book package deal for
|
| janfields |
Oh..the transcript is
going to eat the numbers...so let me say it again
|
| janfields |
six thousand for the
novel
|
| janfields |
two thousand for the
picture book.
|
| janfields |
Those numbers are
comparable to the advance offered by a lot of publishers to "newish"
authors.
|
| janfields |
Meaning writers who
don't have a book.
|
| janfields |
Or writers whose book
is with an educational publisher...or similiar less commmerical
publisher
|
| janfields |
And since a good many
books don't get you money past the advance...it's not impossible
that you would end up with the same amount with a commerical
publisher.
|
| janfields |
But generally,
packagers are not as good a deal financially as commerical
publishers because you don't get any benefit if the book is wildly
successful.
|
| janfields |
A book packager is a
producer of books.
|
| janfields |
They take an
idea.
|
| janfields |
And hire
writers
|
| janfields |
And
illustrators.
|
| janfields |
And produce a book to
match the diea.
|
| janfields |
idea
|
| janfields |
Often the idea comes
from a commerical publisher and is very "high concept" -- meaning
something very commerical and plot driven and
trendy.
|
| janfields |
The sisterhood of the
travelling pants was created by a packager
|
| janfields |
Most series books that
produce tons and tons of books end up with packagers...even though
the book is sold under the main publisher's name
|
| janfields |
It's just cheaper to
get a packager to do series books.
|
| janfields |
Especially considering
how understaffed many commerical publishers are.
|
| janfields |
Another packaged series
is Animal Ark
|
| janfields |
They are written by a
bunch of folks, but sold with one author's name.
|
| janfields |
Yes, packagers
generally do not expect you to promot the book.
|
| janfields |
Sometimes you're not
even allowed to claim the book as yours
|
| janfields |
It depends upon the
contract
|
| janfields |
If the packager is very
married to having the reader believe that one person really did
write all the books, then the ghost writers hired by the packager
are not allowed to claim the book.
|
| janfields |
Yes, the Nancy Drew
books were and are packaged.
|
| janfields |
Originally, the Nancy
Drew folks called themselves a syndicate...but they operated just
like a modern book packager.
|
| janfields |
George wants to know if
you can claim packaged books on your resume.
|
| janfields |
If you've signed a
total nondisclosure agreement, then no.
|
| janfields |
You're really not
supposed to tell anyone.
|
| janfields |
And if you do that kind
of book, you often get paid lousy too.
|
| janfields |
A double
whammy.
|
| janfields |
I've seen packaged
board books in groceries where the author got less than 1000 dollars
and the board book sold zillions.
|
| ccollier |
Jan, if you do another
book will they pay you more
|
| janfields |
You can
try.
|
| janfields |
If a packager really
likes working with you
|
| janfields |
And you're fast...fast
is really important
|
| janfields |
Then you can ask for
more and get it.
|
| janfields |
For the packaged book I
did...I asked for more money for the first book.
|
| janfields |
And warned them that I
would need more money still for future books.
|
| janfields |
They were fine with
that.
|
| omalizzie |
Do packagers mostly do
series?
|
| janfields |
Probably more than
anything else...yes. They also tend to do mass market books like the
really really cheap knock offs you see in supermarkets and at dollar
stores...though that is fading a bit.
|
| jan_fields |
pipepan: Is the magazine
market as hard to break into as the book
publishers?
|
| janfields |
It
depends.
|
| janfields |
I know book authors who
say they totally could not sell to magazines.
|
| janfields |
They couldn't do the
kind of writing required.
|
| janfields |
But I know magazine
writers who can't do book work.
|
| janfields |
There are a lot of
magazines and they need more authors overall than most book
publishers.
|
| janfields |
So if you can produce
what they need...you'll find it easier.
|
| omalizzie |
Should we be reading
those even if we don't want to do work for a
packager?
|
| janfields |
Packaged books tend to
be very exciting
|
| janfields |
Very plot
driven
|
| janfields |
Very very
trendy
|
| janfields |
So it's a good way to
know what kids love RIGHT NOW
|
| janfields |
And that can be helpful
for writers.
|
| janfields |
I think you should read
mine when it comes out :-)
|
| stephenie |
Are they going to send
the packager mob after you for
|
| stephenie |
spilling the beans
here?
|
| janfields |
The packager I'm
working for doesn't have a nondisclosure that's very
taxing.
|
| janfields |
I'm not supposed to
tell about the whole plot or marketing plans they
have
|
| janfields |
But nothing beyond
that.
|
| janfields |
And...um...I'd have to
be sorta stupid to go around retelling the story.
|
| janfields |
Since no one would buy
it...though...sometimes it's hard.
|
| janfields |
But I have done work
for folks that required I not talk about it at all.
|
| janfields |
And for that...I don't.
I have no interest in doing any more of that kind of
work.
|
| janfields |
But generally, it
doesn't look good if you spill the beans after you said you
wouldn't
|
| janfields |
The nice thing about
packager work is that it pays really fast
|
| janfields |
And they'll work you
forever if you want
|
| janfields |
But they'll also work
you to death
|
| janfields |
And if the book takes
off...it's depressing to know you don't get anymore
money
|
| omalizzie |
Do you work for more than
one packager?
|
| janfields |
I've only worked for
one packager at a time.
|
| janfields |
I considered working
for two last year...but I just had too many irons in the
fire
|
| janfields |
Even though the second
one was really nice.
|
| omalizzie |
On average, how long do
they give you to write a book?
|
| janfields |
The packager that is
doing the series I'm on now...the fantasy series
|
| janfields |
Will eventually want
two books a month
|
| janfields |
It's not usual to want
a novel in a month...two months tops
|
| janfields |
So, if you don't want
to suffer...a lot...packagers may not be for you.
|
| ccollier |
So they give you the plot
and you start writing?
|
| janfields |
The packager I'm
working for only gave me a concept.
|
| janfields |
I worked up the plot,
the characters, the future of the series.
|
| janfields |
Sometimes you get
more...sometimes you're working from an outline
|
| janfields |
So...it
varies.
|
| janfields |
Mk1, asks if it's
possible to do an original series with so many packagers to compete
with.
|
| janfields |
Sure.
|
| janfields |
But this is one reason
why so many publishers and agents say
|
| janfields |
Make sure your first
book can stand alone and just hint at your desire for a
series
|
| janfields |
Because any series
decision is going to be made based on the success of the first
book.
|
| janfields |
And eventually, even if
you stay the only writer...there's a chance a packager may get
handed the job of editing, designing, packaging the book
series.
|
| janfields |
Though in that case,
you'll still get royalities and it'll stay just like a regular book
deal
|
| janfields |
On your
end.
|
| omalizzie |
Do they give you all the
information you need, plot..etc, or are you to make the whole thing
up yourself.
|
| janfields |
It depends...I know of
writers who have worked on preexisting series
|
| janfields |
Like
Animorphs
|
| janfields |
And a lot of that is
"fill in the blanks"
|
| janfields |
They can inject some of
their own ideas, but not a lot
|
| janfields |
Okay...it's 3pm...so I
want to thank you for a fun forum...and questions.
|
| janfields |
Thanks for not stumping
me too badly.
|
| janfields |
I'll be here next
Tuesday in a hang around time.
|
| janfields |
But the next forum is
Friday June 29th .. night
forum
|
