| janfields |
February 23, OPEN FORUM
CHAT begins in five minutes in the Auditorium. Open Forums are
totally open topic (well, we like to keep it writing related
somehow), so drop in and tell us what's on your mind
today?
|
| janfields |
February 23, NIGHT
FORUM CHAT begins in 2 minutes. Join us in the Auditorium to ask
questions -- it's open topic, so what do you want to
know?
|
| janfields |
Hi Gang, and welcome to
Friday Night Open Forum for February 23. I'm happy to see some
cheery faces out there.
|
| janfields |
We have some great
questions already sent in...
|
| janfields |
so I'm
happy.
|
| janfields |
Okay...I think we have
an audience question...ahhh...and it's on one of tonight's
topics...
|
| craftymama |
What do you all think of
that new berry winner that is being banned by some of the
libraries?
|
| janfields |
Newberys actually have
a long history of getting banned.
|
| janfields |
Since they often
explore new ideas
|
| janfields |
And look at things in
unconventional ways.
|
| janfields |
So, there are rather a
lot of Newberys that have been challenged.
|
| janfields |
This relates to another
question too...so I'm going to post that one also and go from
there.
|
| janfields |
monkee: Some of the
words causing the ban are, to me at least, inoffensive in the
context in which they appear. For example: the word "scrotum"
resulted in one book
|
| What would they
have us call that particular body part? That book is targeted at 8 -
12 year-olds and is titled: The Higher Power of Lucky by Susan
Patron. I would like to see this discussed in an upcoming weekly
scheduled forum (chat) so we know exactly where we stand in terms of
current language for 2007 and the chances of publishing when the
author feels change would compromise the piece's
integrity. |
|
|
|
| janfields |
Okay...this year's
Newbery has gotten into trouble with SOME school librarians for the
word scrotum
|
| janfields |
In the book, the main
character overhears an adult talking about his dog
|
| janfields |
who was bitten by a
rattlesnake on the scrotum.
|
| janfields |
The child doesn't know
what the word means.
|
| janfields |
And for Lucky...she
doesn't actually have any trusted adults to ask about
it.
|
| janfields |
She is stuck...she
wants to learn, to grow, but she's in a situation where much of her
"wisdom" is worked out for herself.
|
| janfields |
At the end of the
book...she actually is told
|
| janfields |
in specific direct way
what a scrotum is
|
| janfields |
Interestingly, the word
"scrotum" has appeared in many children's books.
|
| janfields |
Specifically in the way
it appears in Lucky -- as a word for a part of an animal's
anatomy.
|
| janfields |
So it did come as a
surprise to the authro that folks would have trouble with the
word.
|
| janfields |
And, really, very very
very very very very very very few librarians have had trouble with
the word.
|
| janfields |
But like most media,
the focus has been on the controversy -- on those who do have
trouble with it.
|
| janfields |
But you'll find it in
many nonfiction books for that age group if they talk about
animals...I actually saw a list.
|
| janfields |
After all, what else
are you going to call that part of an animal?
|
| janfields |
In nonfiction, you
aren't going to make up funny names for it.
|
| janfields |
To me, the only unusual
thing is that a guy at an AA meeting called it his dog's
scrotum
|
| janfields |
Instead of something a
bit coarser
|
| janfields |
One librarian said a
man's genetalia does not belong in a book.
|
| janfields |
David Lubar agrees, he
said he tried using his scrotum as a bookmark once and it
hurt...they do not belong in a book.
|
| janfields |
But in this
instance...it is not a MAN's gentalia described...it was a
dog
|
| janfields |
and it was the part of
the dog that was bitten.
|
| janfields |
And vets say it's not
an unusual part of a dog to receive damage.
|
| janfields |
Yeah...ouch...poor
dog.
|
| janfields |
Ahhh...craftymama asks
why the dog wasn't bitten on the leg.
|
| janfields |
The word is introduced
to show that Lucky has no one ...no adult source of knowledge to ask
about the questions she encounters.
|
| janfields |
No one to tell her how
the world works or to explain words she encounters.
|
| janfields |
She's alone...she is
forced to depend on herself...and thus she comes up with her own
ideas about what "scotum" means
|
| janfields |
She thinks it sounds
like a word for phlegm.
|
| janfields |
You wouldn't get the
same feeling with "leg" which she really would know
|
| janfields |
Or femur...again, a
part she would recognize since she is a bright kid.
|
| janfields |
It had to be something
unusual..and yet a word with an interersting medical sound to
it.
|
| janfields |
And someplace a dog
could legitimately be bitten.
|
| janfields |
So it couldn't be like
duadenum...man, did I spell that wrong.
|
| craftymama |
What other titles has it
appeared in?
|
| janfields |
I'll try to find the
list online and put it in the transcript, crafty. Ah, here's the short list http://www.gelfmagazine.com/gelflog/archives/youth_literature_is_filled_with_scrotums.php I saw a longer one somewhere based on this one, but this will give you some ideas.
|
| coloradokate |
I do have to say, though
I have no problem with the word, that I feel very sorry for public
school librarians in ultraconservative areas--talk about being
between a rock and a hard place.
|
| janfields |
It actually created a
problem for only a few librarians.
|
| janfields |
The media has made it
sound like a much bigger deal than it was.
|
| janfields |
Most librarians on most
list have said they were fine with it...because it's use was
appropriate, and technically correct.
|
| janfields |
It isn't like the
charming use of "penis breath" in E.T....which just put a
questionable word into a movie to avoid a G rating...much more of a
"stunt" use of a word.
|
| janfields |
The book technically
hasn't been banned anywhere.
|
| janfields |
Some librarians said
they wouldn't buy it for their collection
|
| janfields |
Because they felt the
word was inappropriate
|
| janfields |
But they didn't say
kids can't read it
|
| janfields |
folks can't buy
it
|
| janfields |
You can't do a book
report on it
|
| janfields |
etc.
|
| janfields |
They just said, "I
won't buy it for my collection because of that
word."
|
| janfields |
Library collections are
limited and librarians pass on books for all kinds of
reasons.
|
| janfields |
In this case, it seems
kinda a weak reason TO ME...but it's not the same as a
banning
|
| janfields |
Which would be
disallowing children to read it
|
| janfields |
Also, the brouhaha
hasn't worried ANY publishers.
|
| janfields |
They would still allow
the word used just as the word was used in LUCKY
|
| janfields |
And for a middle grade,
they would likely disallow the word if it was used in the way penis
was used in E.T.
|
| janfields |
One is important in
context and one is gratuatous.
|
| janfields |
Both were for a reason,
but only one was put in specifically to make a work MORE EDGY for a
reason (to get a harsher rating)
|
| janfields |
The other was in for a
literary reason...and publishers are fine with
that.
|
| janfields |
As a writer, really,
it's hard not to offend someone.
|
| janfields |
Now...having said
that.
|
| janfields |
Basically no kids
magazine in the country would let you use scrotum in any
context
|
| janfields |
Because kid's magazines
must be more conservative...they ARE afraid of
controversy
|
| janfields |
because controversy
means cancelled subscriptions.
|
| janfields |
Right E.T. the
movie...it was an example I could come up with off the top of my
head of a genetal entering a kid's movie for controversial
reasons.
|
| janfields |
Wow, my spelling is
rough tonight.
|
| janfields |
Okay...I have so many
questions...best move on.
|
| stretch |
One of the writers in my
critique group had a question about a co-op Contract. She said it
cost her 1/2 cost of the first run, but was promised greater
royalties. What's the deal? She's anxzious to get published but was
warned not to accept the contract, as offered.
|
| janfields |
Okay, co-op contracts
are virtually always a VERY VERY VERY bad deal.
|
| janfields |
Because (1) I have
never known a co-op contract that
didn't...well...lie. Sometimes I think they don't mean to, but often when dealing with a company that doesn't have enough money to operate -- and clearly they don't offer co-op deals if they can afford to publish. Then, that financial strain will often grow over time, not shrink. So there is a lot of pressure to cut costs back as close to what the author put in as possible.
|
| janfields |
The writer ends up
paying the BULK of the costs
|
| janfields |
As much as the
publisher can possibly push onto you.
|
| janfields |
And with lower
investment from the publisher
|
| janfields |
There is less reason
for them to exert themselves to sell the book.
|
| janfields |
So often you get weaker
editing (and that can also just come from the publisher being in a business they cannot afford.
|
| janfields |
poor production
values
|
| janfields |
cheap
binding/printing/design
|
| janfields |
So, co-op books are
viewed in the industry as being very much like self-published in
quality
|
| janfields |
Thus making the book
NOT a strong help in career building.
|
| janfields |
So...(1)
expensive
|
| janfields |
(2) low book
sales
|
| janfields |
(3) poor career
building potential
|
| janfields |
A triple
strike...really really really bad idea.
|
| craftymama |
so if you are offered a
co-op contract what should you do as a counter offer
instead?p
|
| janfields |
I wouldn't counter
offer with anything -- I would go find a publisher who has enough
finances and business savvy to cover their costs
|
| janfields |
without expecting
writers to pay to publish.
|
| janfields |
If I have to pay to
publish, I would want the control of
self-publishing
|
| janfields |
So I know I didn't just
pay for someone to produce a really weak version of my
book.
|
| janfields |
And too often, that's
what I've seen from self-publishing companies and co-op
deals.
|
| janfields |
Now, I have heard of a
couple start-up publishers who are doing co-op
|
| janfields |
But honestly, wait and
work with a publisher who can cover costs.
|
| janfields |
You'll be so much
better off.
|
| craftymama |
how often can you check
back in with an editor once you've submitted a story idea with out
being a bother?
|
| janfields |
I usually wait to the
end of the "normal reply time" the one the editor/publisher told all
the market guides
|
| janfields |
and put on the
website
|
| janfields |
Then after that, I wait
a couple more weeks.
|
| janfields |
Then I may
contact...may not. It really depends on how much I want to collect a
rejection and move on.
|
| janfields |
'cause mostly
follow-ups are great for letting you know if the editor didn't get
your manuscript
|
| janfields |
But beyond that..they
don't tend to "light a fire" under editors.
|
| janfields |
I've done it a couple
times with editors I actually knew well
|
| janfields |
And -- honestly -- I
think sometimes they were sitting on the manuscript because they
didn't want to tell me no
|
| janfields |
Since we were
friends.
|
| janfields |
And when I "followed
up" -- I had them stuck so they sent rejection letters...really nice
ones cause no one likes to reject a friend...but still, I don't
remember getting good news after having to follow
up
|
| janfields |
Unless the manuscript
actually was lost.
|
| stretch |
When are your refrences
for nonfiction article listed as Bibliography, Works Cited, or
Notes?
|
| janfields |
Mostly editors of
magazines don't care whether you're sending a bibliography or a
works cited
|
| janfields |
They just want to know
that you did research with credible sources
|
| janfields |
and that you gave them
enough info to fact check.
|
| janfields |
Book publishers, on the
other hand, tend to want things specific to the
publisher
|
| janfields |
It SHOULD be in the
writers guidelines from the publisher
|
| janfields |
but if you're sending
without having seen guidelines (which really, we all do at some time
or other)
|
| janfields |
the best way to know
what they want is to look at their published books.
|
| janfields |
Since they tend to be
consistent.
|
| janfields |
Send them what you see
in their other books.
|
| janfields |
|
| some people send
short items like poems, rebuses or crafts that are only 1o 2 pages
in a regular envelope. I have been using the big 9 x 12 for
everything, thinking all subs had to be 'flat' not 'folded'. Is it
acceptable to fold short subs |
|
| janfields |
I send all short
manuscripts of 4 pages or less in regular business
envelopes
|
| janfields |
Folded
|
| janfields |
I know some folks
shriek at the thought of folding their manuscript.
|
| janfields |
And I've seen folks
say...do you want the editor to have to unfold it??
|
| janfields |
Really...I figure they
can unfold it.
|
| janfields |
It's a
letter
|
| janfields |
They get them at home
and they unfold them...they know how to do it.
|
| janfields |
So...for a short
manuscript, I fold it.
|
| janfields |
And I sell them just
fine.
|
| janfields |
I'm way to cheap to pay
for those nifty big envelopes and postage if I don't need
them.
|
| janfields |
I also do something
else I've heard folks get excited about.
|
| janfields |
I only send regular
business envelopes for return correspondence
|
| janfields |
I don't ever have my
manuscript returned.
|
| janfields |
Right for an
SASE
|
| janfields |
I always send an SASE
but it's never a big honking envelope
|
| janfields |
If they want to send me
a contract
|
| janfields |
And it won't fit in a
business envelope...editors seem to find something just
fine
|
| janfields |
And really...rejection
letters are rarely lengthy tomes
|
| stretch |
When I superscript with a
number, my instructor told me to list references as Works Cited. I
just got confused.
|
| janfields |
Yeah, you don't see
foot notes much in publishing anymore
|
| janfields |
Some educational YA
stuff still does them
|
| janfields |
But mostly you just get
a list of works cited (or a bibliography)
|
| janfields |
I HAVE with articles
with a lot of sources (like the piece I did on the magazine market
for the ICL Writers Guide to 2007
|
| janfields |
Sent two
manuscripts
|
| janfields |
One was a regular
copy
|
| janfields |
And one had every fact
sourced IN THE MANUSCRIPT line in a different color
|
| janfields |
So the fact checker
would know where I got every single thing
|
| janfields |
But that's because I
used like...25 sources...maybe 30 for that thing.
|
| janfields |
Fact checking it would
have been inhumane any other way
|
| janfields |
But I don't normally
source that way...and I've never done it for kid
work.
|
| stretch |
we were told that folded
manuscripts don't lay well, hence, 9/12 so they lay
flat.
|
| janfields |
Yeah, I've heard
that.
|
| janfields |
Um...I think editors
are smarter than that
|
| janfields |
You just crease against
the fold
|
| janfields |
I do it with student
assignments...it isn't hard
|
| janfields |
And I haven't ever had
an editor I work with regularly say, Gosh Jan stop folding these
manuscripts, you're making me nuts
|
| janfields |
So, I'm thinking most
of them are really okay with it...A manuscript without creases is
prettier
|
| janfields |
And if you want it to
be pretty and you don't mind the expense...hey, no one is going to
say, "Hey, writer, get some creases."
|
| janfields |
It all comes down to
what you're comfortable with.
|
| janfields |
I once saw a writer cry
...CRY...because she forgot and put a LOVE stamp on her manuscript
and SASE
|
| janfields |
She was just sure that
marked her as an amateur and a dweeb.
|
| janfields |
I honestly don't know
what's on my postage stamp...could be a scrotum for all I know.
Editors so don't care.
|
| janfields |
But they do care about
stuff like nice wide margins, double spacing, indent don't extra
space between lines, leave plenty of white at the top of page
one...stuff like that
|
| janfields |
Because it makes the
WHOLE manuscript more readable
|
| craftymama |
is it okay to get your
info off the net as long as it is from a credible
site?
|
| janfields |
It depends...mostly
not.
|
| janfields |
But if it's to back up
something fairly generally known
|
| janfields |
Then it's okay...for
example, an editor asked me about spider egg sacs
|
| janfields |
because I described a
spider "knitting" one in a fiction talking animal
story
|
| janfields |
So I had to source
spider egg cases and I did that online with some good
sources.
|
| janfields |
But in a nonfiction
piece I did on caterpillars who feed on aphids
|
| janfields |
I had to find new
sources for all web sources...they wouldn't accept
any
|
| janfields |
including stuff from
YALE
|
| janfields |
The folks who were
specifically studying that strain of butterflies
|
| janfields |
So, for nonfiction,
most editors are twitchy about internet sources, even the good
ones.
|
| janfields |
Make sure you don't use
many.
|
| janfields |
And make sure anything
controversial is sourced somewhere else.
|
| janfields |
Most editors like books
(specifically academic/really dusty books)
|
| janfields |
They also like
interviews with researchers
|
| janfields |
Though some require you
conducted the interviews in person, via postal, or on the
phone...some honestly are twitchy about email (maybe they've been
burned by fake experts..I dunno)
|
| janfields |
You can use databases
that exist online like some of the library of congress stuff, some
from the national archives
|
| janfields |
Places that have
original documents to back it up.
|
| janfields |
Though if you say you
WENT to the archives and looked at it, they'll love you
morel.
|
| janfields |
With sources, the more
you have, the happier editors are.
|
| janfields |
Especially when they
agree.
|
| janfields |
rainchain: Is it ok to
'borrow' from yourself? Say you write a rebus and submit it. Can you
then write a magazine or short story using the same idea fleshed
out? If someplace bought the rebus would they mind if you did that?
Is the idea part of the rights sold? Same thing for NF, if you write
a short simple article for younger children on a topic and sell it,
can you then use the same facts and add to it making a more longer
in depth article for a different target age and submit without
annoying the first buyer? Would this be trouble especially if the
second buyer publishes first changing what might have been a 'new'
fresh topic into a 'used' one by the time the original buyer went to
use it?
|
| janfields |
Okay, it
depends.
|
| janfields |
If you sell ALL RIGHTS
to a rebus
|
| janfields |
Then think...that's a
great idea for a story
|
| janfields |
But the story is WAY
WAY different from the rebus
|
| janfields |
So different than an
average reader reading both wouldn't see the clear
connection
|
| janfields |
Then you're
fine.
|
| janfields |
Now, suppose an average
reader COULD see the connection...meaning the new story is clearly
derrivative of the original
|
| janfields |
And the original
BELONGS to the magazine (cause you sold all rights)
|
| janfields |
Then TECHNICALLY, you
are required to ask for permission.
|
| janfields |
Magazine usually don't
care as long as the derrivative work is in an noncompeting
media
|
| janfields |
Like...say you sold the
rebus to HIGHLIGHTS
|
| janfields |
but now you want to do
a picture book
|
| janfields |
And it's not the same
words...but it's derivative
|
| janfields |
HIGHLIGHTS is going to
be okay with that, but you still BY LAW have to ask for
permission.
|
| janfields |
Which is one of the
many reasons why all rights is a rotten rights package for
writers.
|
| janfields |
But one we're going to
be stuck with more and more and more and more
|
| janfields |
WeeWillieWinkie: I have
been working on a sequel to a book I have out trying to get
published. I have gone from two main characters in the first book to
four main characters. In the first book I used both POVs in the
first chapter and then altered them afterward. Question: Is there a
rule to how many character's POVs can be used in a single chapter as
long as I put a space between the POVs so that the reader can tell
that there is a change?
|
| janfields |
It
depends.
|
| janfields |
If your book is HIGHLY
plot focused
|
| janfields |
An
adventure
|
| janfields |
Most
fantasy
|
| janfields |
A
mystery
|
| janfields |
Hmmm...maybe not a
mystery
|
| janfields |
Cause lots of pov is
going to be a give away.
|
| janfields |
Okay..say an
adventure
|
| janfields |
In an adventure, you
can end up with lots of POV
|
| janfields |
Because you have a
whole group going through something
|
| janfields |
and all of them may
need to be part of the "telling"
|
| janfields |
But if you have a book
that is less plot driven like most school stories
|
| janfields |
Or relationship
novels
|
| janfields |
Then the most POV you
use, the more you lessen the effectiveness of the
characters
|
| janfields |
Because we're not
likely to care a lot about more than two people at a
time.
|
| janfields |
Ultimately, it's a lot
about how well you do it.
|
| janfields |
How very very different
you make each character
|
| janfields |
How essential each
switch is
|
| janfields |
Assuming you do it
right...you can make the rules
|
| janfields |
Multi viewpoint is
becoming rarer and publishers don't like it as well
|
| janfields |
But if you do it
well...they'll get over anything.
|
| janfields |
Wow, you guys are
question machines tonight.
|
| janfields |
I have time for one
more...and I'll have to save the rest
|
| janfields |
and answer them in NEXT
Friday's newsletter
|
| craftymama |
what about a remake of a
classic story? There a million versions of Cinderella and The Three
Little Pigs
|
| janfields |
A story that is no
longer under copyright
|
| janfields |
Like Cinderella or most
other fairytales
|
| janfields |
Can be explored
endlessly
|
| janfields |
HOWEVER, be certain
you're dealing with a story that isn't under
copyright
|
| janfields |
Peter Pan, for example,
is still not free...so each Peter Pan story has to cough up
permission money
|
| janfields |
And editors don't do
that lightly unless you're a BIG NAME
|
| janfields |
And you have to be
certain you're using an original tale...not the Disney
version
|
| janfields |
For example, the
original snow white did not have a specifc number of
dwarves.
|
| janfields |
And all the names are
Disney
|
| janfields |
As are the names of
Cinderella's step sisters
|
| janfields |
Stuff like
that.
|
| janfields |
Rudolph is under
copyright.
|
| janfields |
Frosty
is.
|
| janfields |
Song copyright is much
more complicated.
|
| janfields |
If you have a story
you're considering, you can research it online
|
| janfields |
It is absolutely MIND
BLOWING the amount of scholarship
|
| janfields |
available online about
folktales and fairy tales
|
| janfields |
And you can often find
out if they're available.
|
| janfields |
There's a discussions
site...SurlaLune...I think is the name of it. I'll look it
up. Okay found it -- http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/
|
| janfields |
They are a huge source
of information about stories
|
| janfields |
and variants of classic
tales
|
| janfields |
And who's done what
with the stories.
|
| janfields |
Amazing place...Jane
Yolen hangs out there sometimes I think
|
| janfields |
Oh, sorry...I was
confuing
|
| janfields |
No scholarships (as in
money for college)
|
| janfields |
Scholarship as in
...study by scholars...scholarly works...deep doctoral information
type stuff.
|
| janfields |
Some of the sites talk
fairy tale study way way way over my head
|
| janfields |
And I love those old
stories.
|
| janfields |
Okay...I'm over the
hour.
|
| janfields |
I'll catch ALL these
extra questions for Friday's newsletter
|
| janfields |
Thanks so much for
hanging out with me tonight.
|
| janfields |
I'll post this
transcript as is tonight...and then edit it as I find the
information I mention in it
.
|
