| janfields |
September 26, AFTERNOON
FORUM begins in five minutes. Today is our last "topical" open
forum. Today's topic is "Scenes and Chapters." So if you have any
questions about scenes/showing/setting or the process of creating
chapters -- ask away. Chat begins in the Auditorium in five
minutes.
|
| janfields |
September 26, Afternoon
Open Forum on "Scenes and Chapters" begins in 2 minutes.
|
| janfields |
Welcome to Afternoon
Open Forum. Our topic is "Scenes and Chapters" -- but feel free to
ask whatever you need to know today.
|
| janfields |
I'm not going to be too
much of a stickler.
|
| janfields |
If you want to ask a
question and be sure it has a chance to be posted, you'll need to
use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle
of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and type your
question. That passes the question to me and I can post it for
answer. If you type the question in the bar at the bottom of you
screen, I may not see it.
|
| janfields |
I'm delighted that
y'all chose to share some of your day with me.
|
| janfields |
The reason I picked
"scenes and chapters" is because I get a lot of questions about
chapters...
|
| janfields |
How many chapters
should a children's book have?
|
| janfields |
As many as you
need.
|
| janfields |
EXCEPT...when it's a
young reader chapter book.
|
| janfields |
Then it usually has 8 -
11
|
| janfields |
with 9 being the number
one most often seen number of chapters.
|
| janfields |
But for middle grade
and YA...use the number you like.
|
| janfields |
DO all novels have to
have chapters?
|
| janfields |
Pretty much all
publishers like to see chapters for middle grade and
YA
|
| janfields |
Some kind of "breaking
up" of the material.
|
| janfields |
That doesn't always
happen in books for adults
|
| janfields |
But it's almost the
rule for middle grade and YA.
|
| calico |
How can you set a great
scene change if the words are so limited?
|
| janfields |
You really only need a
couple words to set a scene change.
|
| janfields |
You can do it with
time:
|
| janfields |
Later, Mark saw Jenny
riding his bike.
|
| janfields |
You can do it with
place: When they got home, Mark kicked his brother's
shin.
|
| janfields |
That's probably the
most often seen types of transitions
|
| janfields |
in short fiction -- a
time transition
|
| janfields |
or a place
transition.
|
| janfields |
And be as specific as
you need....Later might be fine
|
| janfields |
Or you might need to
say "Early the next morning, Mark found poo poo in his
bed.
|
| calico |
But describing a scene
takes more
|
| janfields |
If you're writing short
fiction
|
| janfields |
for
magazines
|
| janfields |
or picture
books
|
| janfields |
Your setting details
need to be very brief
|
| janfields |
Ask yourself, what does
the reader need to know?
|
| janfields |
And what's the quickest
way to give it.
|
| janfields |
Say I'm going to do a
setting in a barn.
|
| janfields |
And during the scene,
my character is going to have an asthma attack.
|
| janfields |
I might set the scene
in minimal words...
|
| janfields |
In the dusty barn, Joey
kicked at the scattered hay on the floor.
|
| janfields |
That actually
completely puts us in a barn.
|
| janfields |
We don't need to see
every board and cranny.
|
| janfields |
But if I am setting it
in the barn and part of the scene is going to be having something
fall out of the loft
|
| janfields |
I might set the scene
like this
|
| janfields |
In the shadowy barn,
Joey leaned against the ladder to the loft.
|
| janfields |
That would let the
reader SEE the things that will be important to the
scene.
|
| coloradokate |
I have a hard time with
pacing ("erratic," I'm told). How can thinking in terms of scenes
and chapters help me with that?
|
| janfields |
The longer you
write...the slower the pace becomes.
|
| janfields |
Long sentence slow down
pace.
|
| janfields |
Description slows down
pace.
|
| janfields |
Movement speeds up
pace.
|
| janfields |
Staccato sentences
speed up pace.
|
| janfields |
Scenes with action
speed up pace...as long as you focus on the action and
dialogue
|
| janfields |
Purposeful dialogue can
either slow down or speed up the pace
|
| janfields |
Depending upon the
amount of conflict
|
| janfields |
And the directness of
the speaker's conversation.
|
| janfields |
For example...this is a
slow pace and a fast pace for the same command...
|
| janfields |
"If you do not stop
talking," Matthew said quietly. "I am going to sew your lips shut,
then cover them with duct tape for safe keeping."
|
| janfields |
Fast pace? "Shut up,
you dweeb," Matthew snapped.
|
| janfields |
Longer scenes are often
long because of the amount of setting and the slower
dialogue.
|
| janfields |
So tightening pace
really has to work from the most fundamental unit
outwards.
|
| janfields |
But short scenes and
short chapters definitely make for a faster reading
pace.
|
| janfields |
As does action and
quippy dialogue.
|
| janfields |
June Ellis: I was
looking through a house/home magazine that I subscribe to. Is it
okay to use some of the descriptions that they use to describe a
room/furniture/curtains in a scene for a story?
|
| janfields |
Yes, and
no
|
| janfields |
It's absolutely
terrific to use house/home magazines to see your room
settings.
|
| janfields |
I should do that
more
|
| janfields |
Because all my rooms
look like my mom's house.
|
| janfields |
And you can "borrow" a
word if you like the way it describes a fabric or color or
atmosphere
|
| janfields |
But you can't life
whole sentence and use them.
|
| janfields |
And really, you
probably wouldn't want to.
|
| janfields |
Those magazines can be
a little flowery.
|
| janfields |
And unless you're
lifting the words to be put in the mouth of the character's interior
decorator mom
|
| janfields |
It's not going to fit
most of the time in a kid/YA story.
|
| janfields |
Okay...I have a
non-scene question.
|
| janfields |
But it's a good
one.
|
| janfields |
Jill: Should we ever
address editors by their first names? I've seen this question
before, and the answer was no unless the editor asks to be addressed
by a first name. However, there are a few editors that I've worked
with on a regular basis for quite a few years and we often e-mail
quick notes to each other. They always use my first name. Would it
be appropriate for me to use their first names or should I stick
with the formal address even in short e-mails?
|
| janfields |
I address editors by
their first names often.
|
| janfields |
If the editor is
calling you by your first name.
|
| janfields |
If the editor is
someone you know.
|
| janfields |
If the editor has good
reason to recognize your name (as in you've worked together a time
or two)
|
| janfields |
Then it's fine to use
the person's first name
|
| janfields |
In fact, sometimes
editors wonder why writers are so standoffish
|
| janfields |
Because we're terrified
to just relax and call them by their first names once we know
them.
|
| jan_fields |
Could you help me with
describing an ancient castle of wars?
|
| janfields |
Passing along Dracco's
question.
|
| janfields |
So I can answer it for
the transcript.
|
| janfields |
If you want to describe
a castle
|
| janfields |
I would do some
research on castles.
|
| janfields |
There are literally
hundreds of books on castles.
|
| janfields |
Many have photos of
castle ruins
|
| janfields |
Some have artist's
drawings of what the castle looked like when it was "in
use"
|
| janfields |
And you can even find
them with floorplan type drawings.
|
| janfields |
Connect with your
reference librarian
|
| janfields |
And you can get books
like that through inter-library loan.
|
| janfields |
The key to describing
it well is visualizing it well.
|
| janfields |
When we can't really
really see it...we don't describe it so well.
|
| janfields |
I also find it helps
(since I am in the US...with a sad lack of castles) to visit stone
forts
|
| janfields |
Because they have a
similar feel...a kind of same spirit or something
|
| janfields |
And that can really
help.
|
| janfields |
The key, honestly, is
making it real for you.
|
| janfields |
Virtually every time I
have trouble describing something
|
| janfields |
It's because I don't
know it well enough.
|
| charweb |
What's Staccato
sentences?
|
| janfields |
Short sentences ...like
5 words or less.
|
| janfields |
Quit. Stop that. I'm
going to scream. I mean it.
|
| janfields |
That's
staccato
|
| janfields |
Because the rhythm of
the sentence is short and abrubt.
|
| janfields |
If you want a sense of
extreme distress or speed.
|
| janfields |
Keep your sentences
short and it speeds up the reader's consumption of the
words.
|
| janfields |
Making it seem as if
everything is moving very fast.
|
| stretch |
It's good to know editors
are people, too. How many chapters in Tween, teen book? How many
scenes per chapter?
|
| janfields |
As many chapters as you
want.
|
| janfields |
I've seen like...five
as a minimum
|
| janfields |
And as many as 25 -
30
|
| janfields |
And I've seen chapters
of one scene.
|
| janfields |
I've seen chapters of
one paragraph.
|
| janfields |
I've also seen chapters
of up to three scenes.
|
| janfields |
You don't usually want
to stretch much beyond three well developed scenes
|
| janfields |
Unless you have very
good reason.
|
| janfields |
Mostly you're looking
for a sense of surprise
|
| janfields |
Or
revelation
|
| janfields |
Or near revelation as
your place to break chapters.
|
| janfields |
So that readers are
eager to keep reading.
|
| janfields |
Try to avoid a feeling
of ending or closure at the end of a chapter for older
kids
|
| janfields |
Because you really want
it to be hard for them to tear themselves away from your
book.
|
| betty54 |
I am writing a book for
tween/early teens. Do I have to conform to a certain number of
chapter, pages, scene pages or points of view?
|
| janfields |
Nope. I've seen
incredibly short tween/young teen books and very long (Harry Potter
coming to mind)
|
| janfields |
And the number of
chapters is totally fluid
|
| janfields |
Use the breaks though
to give a sense of breathless anticipation for what comes
next.
|
| janfields |
That's what chapters
are for...to build tension
|
| janfields |
So those things have
absolutely no rules.
|
| janfields |
In terms of number of
points of view
|
| janfields |
It depends on what you
can handle well
|
| janfields |
and what your plot
demands.
|
| janfields |
Don't add a point of
view just to make the story easier to tell
|
| janfields |
Add it because to tell
the story any other way would weaken it.
|
| tlareeves |
Does a scene need its own
arc to be complete?
|
| janfields |
A scene needs to have a
sense of purpose.
|
| janfields |
And it needs to be
essential to plot.
|
| janfields |
It helps if it's also
revelation about character.
|
| janfields |
And most scenes tend to
"fall into" a kind of arc
|
| janfields |
But it's not a rule,
no.
|
| fireehead |
Do you know any editors
who want a fantasy type novel?
|
| janfields |
LOTS...though some are
getting a little twitchy about it
|
| janfields |
because there are so
man
|
| janfields |
many
|
| janfields |
fantasy manuscripts in
the slush piles right now.
|
| janfields |
Lots and lots and lots
and lots of writers are inspired by the success of Harry
Potter
|
| guestspeaker |
Hi Jan
|
| janfields |
Hi Deb..nice to see
you.
|
| janfields |
I'm pontificating on
scenes and chapters
|
| guestspeaker |
No, its Frank just
testing the guestspeaker logon
|
| janfields |
Oh...Hi
Frank.
|
| janfields |
I have to keep
pontificating now
|
| guestspeaker |
Is that the logon she
was using when she was having the problem?
|
| janfields |
Yes, but it seems to be
working now
|
| janfields |
So editors are looking
for fantasy but they're so tired of wading through the
slush.
|
| janfields |
And there are so many
fantasy novels in the slush.
|
| janfields |
So it's probably a
little harder to sell one.
|
| janfields |
And you have
to...absolutely HAVE TO capture the editor right from the first
page.
|
| zebrakitchen |
Is it permissable to put
chapters in picture books so as to
|
| janfields |
Ummm...well, I've seen
some.
|
| janfields |
But they are almost all
by "name" authors
|
| janfields |
So I would be inclined
to say...it would make it really hard to sell
|
| janfields |
if you have enough
picture book
|
| janfields |
manuscript to need
chapters.
|
| zebrakitchen |
familiar young readers to
them?
|
| janfields |
Um...pretend I posted
zebra's whole question...okay?
|
| janfields |
Some early readers have
chapters.
|
| janfields |
That are about a half
page long
|
| janfields |
That's where kids are
being introduced to chapters.
|
| stretch |
What do you mean by
arc?
|
| betty54 |
What is the meaning of
"it's own arc"?
|
| janfields |
An arc is a plotting
term
|
| janfields |
That refers to the way
a story tends to start off with all the characters sort
of...neutral-ish in terms of tension.
|
| janfields |
Then conflict
happens
|
| janfields |
Things become more
tense
|
| janfields |
Which is when you are
climbing the "arc"
|
| janfields |
of the
plot
|
| janfields |
The tension reaches an
all time high
|
| janfields |
And something
absolutely must happen
|
| janfields |
Because tension cannot
sustain itself
|
| janfields |
Sometimes something
happens to break the tension completely
|
| janfields |
Like, the "ghost" turns
out to be a cat in a paper bag.
|
| janfields |
Or sometimes you have
some kind of resolutions...something to "drop" the
tension.
|
| janfields |
Bringing the arc back
down.
|
| janfields |
It's not a smooth arc
because the drop is always much faster than the build
up.
|
| janfields |
Sometimes scenes work
that way...sometimes not.
|
| janfields |
Overall, though, plot
does tend to work that way...it's not a perfect arc as there are
many ways to handle conflict and tension.
|
| janfields |
Often it's a bit like a
roller coaster with lots of tension building...then a false bleed
off (like the cat in the bag) then more tension (but what's that
ghostly figure)...etc etc.
|
| janfields |
Up and down throughout
the plot
|
| janfields |
But the plot usually
ends at the "bottom" with all conflict resolved good or bad and the
tension to neutral again.
|
| fireehead |
Is it better to start
with Non fiction to gain credit ?
|
| janfields |
Nonfiction credits
aren't all that valuable to fiction writers.
|
| janfields |
BUT getting published
is valuable
|
| janfields |
Simply because we get a
lot of rejeciton in this business
|
| janfields |
and it's easy to lose
hope and get really depressed.
|
| janfields |
So getting published
helps you through that.
|
| janfields |
Also it helps you
become a better writer.
|
| janfields |
It helps you learn to
work with an editor.
|
| janfields |
But to impress an
editor...you do that by writing well.
|
| janfields |
Right
now.
|
| janfields |
In your query
letter
|
| janfields |
In your sample
pages
|
| janfields |
In your
synopsis.
|
| janfields |
Credits are nice...but
editors are MOSTLY interested in what you're
selling.
|
| janfields |
Now...if you're selling
NONFICTION book length work
|
| janfields |
Then nonfiction
articles DO help
|
| janfields |
For lots of
reasons.
|
| janfields |
They show you know how
to research.
|
| janfields |
And organize
material
|
| janfields |
And be
interesting.
|
| eggamy |
How fast or slow should
middle grade stories be paced?
|
| janfields |
Anytime your writing
for kids, a fast paced book will be more popular with the
kids.
|
| janfields |
But if you're trying to
win awards...the really blindingly fast books don't usually
win.
|
| janfields |
And you can actually
get so fact paced that the story feels surfacy and
scant.
|
| janfields |
fast...not
fact
|
| janfields |
So, you want to pick
your times to slow the pace.
|
| janfields |
You don't want...for
example...to spend a lot of time describing the
clouds
|
| janfields |
While a giant
fire-breathing dragon is bursting out of them
|
| janfields |
Because you'll kill the
tension inherent in a giant fire-breathing dragon.
|
| janfields |
But if your main
character is one a picnic with her lady faire
|
| janfields |
Then you'll have a
chance to spend more time...the slower pace is okay
there.
|
| janfields |
Until she gets mad and
pelts him with the contents of the picnic basket.
|
| janfields |
So take your pacing
ques from the material.
|
| janfields |
cues not
ques
|
| draco |
Does age count in the
writing business?
|
| janfields |
Yes and
no
|
| janfields |
Right now, young
writers are VERY hot with publishers.
|
| janfields |
But only if they write
very very well for their age.
|
| janfields |
If you're a blindingly
gifted 15 year old
|
| janfields |
who is totally open to
growth and editing
|
| janfields |
Then a publisher will
love you
|
| janfields |
And push over adults to
get to you.
|
| janfields |
But since being 15
MEANS you've only had a certain number of years to work on your
writing craft.
|
| janfields |
And you're competing
with people who have worked on their craft for longer than you've
been alive.
|
| janfields |
So you also have to
have a unique vision and voice.
|
| janfields |
And you have to be
writing for your peers.
|
| janfields |
Not
adults.
|
| janfields |
If you're writing for
adults, you lose that "novelty" edge
|
| janfields |
Okay...that's all the
questions in the line-up.
|
| janfields |
Did I miss
any?
|
| janfields |
I know I sometimes miss
them when they are posted in the room with y'all.
|
| stretch |
Did you enjoy your two
weeks away from Tuesday afternoon forums? I missed you.
smile.
|
| janfields |
Well, since I'm putting
my whole life in boxes right now...I appreciated the time...but yes,
I miss chat.
|
| janfields |
I'm thinking I am going
to keep hanging out in the chat room around this
time
|
| janfields |
Even though we'll only
be making a transcript of the chat once a month.
|
| betty54 |
back to the tween/teen
thing is it better to have it fast paced or are they beginning to
like a lot of descriptive paragraphs?
|
| janfields |
Depends on the
reader.
|
| janfields |
Some fluent readers
have the patience for description.
|
| janfields |
Some will just skip it
and still read the book.
|
| janfields |
And some will skip the
book altogether.
|
| janfields |
They're a persnickity
bunch.
|
| janfields |
But you can include
it...editors like it.
|
| janfields |
Just be certain it
feels purposeful and right for the scene.
|
| coloradokate |
How does a "literary"
style affect pacing/chapters/scenes?
|
| janfields |
A literary novel tends
to have much more erratic chapter lengths
|
| janfields |
Because authors will do
experimental things with chapters.
|
| janfields |
And you see a lot more
description
|
| janfields |
Slow pace, in
general
|
| janfields |
They tend to be
character focused...not so plot driven.
|
| janfields |
So that will play a
part...though some literary styles are very space.
|
| janfields |
I think Sarah Maclaclan
(spelled so wrong) and Linda Sue Park are very
literary
|
| janfields |
But their style is very
spare.
|
| janfields |
The overall feel though
is character deep
|
| janfields |
And strongly
thematic.
|
| zebrakitchen |
When is it a good point
to add new characters in a chapter?
|
| janfields |
Again, no actual
rule.
|
| janfields |
Keep in mind certain
"realities" about readers.
|
| janfields |
Readers will consume
the beginning of sentences better than the ends.
|
| janfields |
Readers will consume
the beginning and end of chapters better than the
middles
|
| janfields |
So if you introduce a
new character...do it up big.
|
| janfields |
Make sure a lazy reader
won't miss the character's entrance.
|
| janfields |
And if you do it in the
middle of the chapter...do it with action.
|
| janfields |
Action always snaps a
reader out of lethargy.
|
| stretch |
Good description of
Literary style, thanks.
|
| janfields |
Thank
you.
|
| janfields |
I accept all
compliments
|
| janfields |
And
chocolate.
|
| janfields |
Oh...you know I got the
rudest spam today
|
| janfields |
It said -- GET YOUR
CHOCOLATE CHEAPER
|
| janfields |
Made me sit up and take
notice.
|
| janfields |
Turned out to be some
gadget...cell phone or ipod or somethigng like
that.
|
| janfields |
It was wrong on so many
levels.
|
| coloradokate |
Here's some virtual
chocolate for you!
|
| janfields |
Aw...aren't you a
sweetie.
|
| janfields |
Now, don't y'all forget
we have a FANTASTIC guest speaker on Thursday night
|
| janfields |
Deborah Lynn
Jacobs
|
| janfields |
She's going to be
talking to us
|
| janfields |
about multiple
viewpoint novels
|
| janfields |
SO if you've ever
thought about doing one.
|
| janfields |
And want to know the
ins and outs
|
| janfields |
Be sure to come see
us.
|
| dell |
I wanted to add my good
news if there's time. My poem 'Pumpkin, Pumpkin' appears in the Oct
issue of Ladybug. The artwork is gorgeous!!
|
| janfields |
Hey, terrific...I will
have to check it out.
|
| janfields |
I love the artwork they
match to stuff.
|
| janfields |
Congratz
|
| betty54 |
I was looking forward to
Thursday, but now find out I can't make it. How soon will I be able
to read th transcript?
|
| janfields |
I will have the
transcript posted by noon on Friday.
|
| janfields |
I usually have them
posted by ten AM Eastern...but not always.
|
| janfields |
But i've never missed a
noon eastern deadline for transcripts.
|
| janfields |
So...that's all
folks.
|
| janfields |
Thanks for
coming.
|
