| janfields |
August 29, OPEN FORUM
CHAT will begin in 5 minutes. Today we're fielding questions on
Dissecting Rejection -- so pop in with any questions related to
rejection -- how you should respond, what they mean, and how many to
expect! So be sure to join us in the Auditorium in five
minutes.
|
| janfields |
AUGUST 29 OPEN FORUM
CHAT about REJECTION begins in 2 minutes. Bring your questions about
anything related to rejection...in two minutes.
|
| janfields |
Welcome to OPEN FORUM
CHAT: STORY! Pull up a chair and play "Stump the Jan" with your
questions about all areas of REJECTION -- how many can you expect?
what do they mean? how should you respond? what's a good rejection?
Ask and you shall be pontificated at!
|
| janfields |
If you want to ask a
question and be sure it has a chance to be posted, you'll need to
use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle
of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and type your
question. That passes the question to me and I can post it for
answer. If you type the question in the bar at the bottom of you
screen, I may not see it.
|
| janfields |
Today we are rejecting
my opening message...we're talking about Rejection, not
story.
|
| janfields |
Among all the writers I
know or have known...only one...
|
| janfields |
Paula
Danzinger...
|
| janfields |
said she never got a
rejection letter.
|
| janfields |
She also ate lots and
lots of M&Ms...I'm not sure there's a
correlation...
|
| janfields |
but I'm eating more
M&Ms just in case.
|
| janfields |
At any rate, virtually
everyone gets rejections.
|
| janfields |
Even a writing "great"
like Jane Yolen gets rejections.
|
| janfields |
Oh, no...d.s.stewart
doesn't like chocolate....well, that's too bad d.s.
|
| janfields |
More rejections for
you.
|
| janfields |
I could NOT paper a
room with my rejection letter...though I do have a nice folder
full.
|
| janfields |
But many rejection
letters are printed on teeny tiny slips of paper
|
| janfields |
I think that's
specifically to thwart our efforts to make wallpaper from
them.
|
| janfields |
Rejection letters do
NOT mean you can't write.
|
| janfields |
Great writers get
rejection letters.
|
| janfields |
Rejection letters do
NOT mean the piece you are sending out needs work.
|
| janfields |
But they also don't
mean it doesn't.
|
| janfields |
Getting lots of form
rejections does NOT mean that you don't write
well...
|
| janfields |
one thing form
rejections mean these days is that many publishers are cutting back
on staff
|
| janfields |
To improve the bottom
line...and that means less time spent reading
submissions...
|
| janfields |
less time spent
answering submissions.
|
| janfields |
And more form letter
rejections.
|
| janfields |
Right, ricksgal,
actually Stephen King was almost ready to quit his novel writing
efforts completely after so many rejections...
|
| janfields |
then his wife insisted
he send out CARRIE...and things picked up
|
| charweb |
What's form
rejection?
|
| janfields |
A form rejection is a
pre-set letter that goes to everyone the publisher doesn't buy
from.
|
| janfields |
Form rejections usually
say something nice like how the publisher appreciates your
submission
|
| janfields |
but it doesn't meet
their needs
|
| janfields |
But you should feel
free to send something else some time.
|
| janfields |
If the editor scratches
out that last line...you're in trouble.
|
| janfields |
But really those
letters don't tell you much either way.
|
| janfields |
Just that your
manuscript isn't selling to that editor.
|
| ricksgal |
Does that mean that if
less time is spent on reading submissions that more are
rejected?
|
| janfields |
Technically, more
manuscripts are collecting rejections these days...
|
| janfields |
but that's mostly
because there are more manuscripts period.
|
| janfields |
In all the editor talks
I've ever heard...the break down is something like
this.
|
| janfields |
Ninety percent of all
submissions are completely unpublishable by the house/magazine to
whom they are subitted.
|
| janfields |
Either because they
aren't well written.
|
| janfields |
Or because they are
completley inappropriate for the publisher.
|
| janfields |
So...YOUR manuscript
does not compete with them.
|
| janfields |
YOUR manuscript is
better.
|
| janfields |
But in that 10
percent...only a few will be bought.
|
| janfields |
Because each publisher
has limits to how much they can buy.
|
| janfields |
So that ten percent is
your competition...only about 2% of any submissions pile at a
publisher gets published by them.
|
| janfields |
But...small staff
doesn't mean more rejections.
|
| janfields |
You can usually skim
that 90% off the pile with the first paragraph and sometimes witht
he cover letter.
|
| ricksgal |
how soon after sending a
ms can you expect an answer or a rejection
|
| janfields |
Depends upon the
publisher.
|
| janfields |
No less than 6 weeks
for most magazine.
|
| janfields |
Slightly shorter for
online magazines...two weeks usually.
|
| janfields |
No less than three
months for most publishers.
|
| janfields |
And the "big" houses
have been known to take 6 months to a year.
|
| janfields |
No less than three
months for most agents.
|
| janfields |
Independent agents have
been known to take 6 months to a year.
|
| janfields |
A really really quick
rejection usually means you sent something
inappropriate...
|
| janfields |
Though it might be
something like sending poetry to a magazine that has already bought
all the poetry they can this year.
|
| janfields |
So you can't ALWAYS
know what's inappropriate.
|
| janfields |
But a REALLY fast
turn-around and rejection doesn't usually mean it's bad, just that
it's something the publisher can't take.
|
| eggamy |
Can I send the same ms to
the same mag. that rejected it
|
| eggamy |
years earliar if the mag
has changed editors?
|
| janfields |
If you know EXACTLY why
it was rejected and you fixed the problem -- sure.
|
| janfields |
Or if you know that it
was rejected because they ran a story on goat right about that
time...holding it a couple years and going again would be
fine.
|
| janfields |
But I wouldn't do it
unless I knew that I knew why it got passed on the first
time.
|
| dreamer77 |
If rejected, should you
revise before submitting elsewhere?
|
| janfields |
Not necessarily. I
always read rejected manuscripts because sometimes that long wait to
get it back...
|
| janfields |
gives me a fresh
perspective...
|
| janfields |
and I can see EXACTLY
what was wrong with it.
|
| janfields |
But if I read it and I
still love it...nope, I just send it somewhere
else.
|
| janfields |
So...read it
critically, but tinker with it only if you KNOW it needs
it.
|
| cathie |
is there a list of
standard rejection forms set down anywhere?
|
| janfields |
Not as far as I know
though I've gotten plenty.
|
| janfields |
From a lot of
publishers, it's obvious.
|
| janfields |
A rejection letter on
LESS than a full sheet of paper is a form letter.
|
| janfields |
A rejection letter with
no specifics about your manuscript is a form
letter.
|
| janfields |
But a letter that says
something like, "I liked your voice in LION IN THE GARDEN but didn't
like the manner premise"
|
| janfields |
That's clearly
not
|
| rainchain |
What is the difference
between light editing by the editor
|
| rainchain |
and revision requests for
you to revise?
|
| janfields |
It
depends.
|
| janfields |
Actually I've seen a
HUGE HUGE difference in what different publishers will "do
themselves" versus what they ask you about.
|
| janfields |
The Cricket group, for
example, asks you to do anything more than a simple sentence
rearranging.
|
| janfields |
And even if the editor
rearranges the sentence, they'll ask you if that's
okay.
|
| janfields |
While the Focus on the
Family magazines and Guideposts (as two examples) will virtually
rewrite your article without showing it to you before
publication.
|
| janfields |
In general...book
publishers fall between those extremes.
|
| janfields |
But you ALWAYS should
get a chance to "sign off" on changes with a book
publisher.
|
| janfields |
So you'll read them and
decide if the editor's little tweaks are okay.
|
| ricksgal |
do online publishers
reject as often as in print publishers?
|
| janfields |
Not at
first
|
| janfields |
Though some online
publishers get so many submission
|
| janfields |
Uh oh
|
| janfields |
brb
|
| janfields |
Wow, it's so exciting
when it does that.
|
| janfields |
Okay
|
| janfields |
Online publishers tend
to get overwhelmed once they get "discovered"
|
| janfields |
and they'll end up
having to reject a higher percentage...because they can only handle
so much.
|
| janfields |
Often the staff size is
tiny.
|
| coloradokate |
And we know that our ms
is in the viable 10% because... we know our hearts are pure? We eat
M&Ms? Our friends liked it? Do you have any tricks for keeping
the faith?
|
| janfields |
Well...if you know your
grammar is pretty good...that bumps you ahead of a distressing
number of submissions.
|
| janfields |
If you use correct
manuscript format...that bumps you above about
half.
|
| janfields |
If you proofread before
mailing...that bumps you about 75%..
|
| janfields |
That 90% really
is...well...kinda scary.
|
| janfields |
If you make sure your
printer is actually PRINTING...that gets you above a good 20% right
there.
|
| janfields |
If you know ANYTHING at
ALL about the publisher...that puts you above 70% of the submissions
right there.
|
| cathie |
Jan, what would be a
quick turnoff in a cover letter. Aren't they pretty
basic?
|
| janfields |
Bad grammar, bad
spelling, sending fiction to a nonfiction
publisher.
|
| janfields |
sending a picture book
to a publisher that only does novels.
|
| janfields |
Sending a novel to
publishers who only do picture books.
|
| janfields |
All of those things
tend to show up in the cover letter.
|
| janfields |
Oh...one
thing.
|
| janfields |
YOu need to know the
difference between a story and an article.
|
| janfields |
Don't call a story, a
fiction piece, a piece you made up with made-up characters, an
article.
|
| janfields |
That really heavily
counts against you.
|
| janfields |
And don't call your
article, "a story"
|
| janfields |
Unless you say
something like -- this personal experience article on my experience
raising baby possums is a favorite family story.
|
| janfields |
That's okay because it
makes it plain that you do, in fact, know it's
nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
But many many many
submissions show that writers don't know the difference between
fiction and nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
An article with ZERO
mention of sources in the cover letter...that can get you the
boot.
|
| janfields |
You don't need to list
them in the cover...but you need to mention that you're enclosing a
list of sources.
|
| janfields |
Or if you are totally
writing personal experience...you need to source it like this: "This
article is based on my own experience growing up in blah blah and
going to the festival every year with my family."
|
| janfields |
But for any nonfiction,
the cover should make some mention of where the facts
originate.
|
| janfields |
For nonfiction, a cover
that doesn't make the focus/slant of the article clear could keep
some busy editors from reading the article.
|
| janfields |
In fiction, a cover
letter that says, "In this story, children will learn how important
it is to be nice to their mothers and do their chores" will get yo a
rejection without a read sometimes.
|
| janfields |
Because the cover
letter sounds like your sending a lecture, not a
story.
|
| rainchain |
If they say their turn
around is a month and you get a
|
| rainchain |
rejected in a month is
that considered a quick rejection?
|
| janfields |
No, that just means
they are actually on top of their manuscript pile.
|
| janfields |
It mostly suggests they
have enough staff to process submissions in a timely
manner.
|
| janfields |
But if you got rejected
in two weeks...that would be suspicious.
|
| ricksgal |
do rejection letters ever
offer sugestions to repair and then resubmit?
|
| janfields |
Oh, yeah...and
sometimes they offer suggestions to repair and don't mention
resubmitting.
|
| janfields |
I always appreciate
suggestions.
|
| janfields |
Now...I'm going to tell
you this big fat NO NO that I do.
|
| janfields |
If I get a suggestion
for a fix, but no invitation to resend.
|
| janfields |
But I totally TOTALLY
COMPLETELY agree with the fix and CLEARLY see the problem and the
solution...
|
| janfields |
I've been known to
resubmit even without an invitation.
|
| janfields |
And I usually sell the
piece.
|
| janfields |
BUT...only if I feel I
completely understand what the editor meant.
|
| janfields |
A lot of times,
mentions of problems are vague...and in that case, if they didn't
ask me to resub, I don't.
|
| janfields |
But I do consider all
editor suggestions.
|
| janfields |
I don't always agree or
do them...but I always consider them.
|
| gladys1 |
hi Jan, sorry to be late.
If the subject is what to do about rejections, I have a question.
When they say, we did not feel the writing was strong enough in this
manuscript for out needs. If you "fix" or redo it can you resubmit
it?
|
| janfields |
If they weren't REALLY
specific about HOW it didn't fit their needs...no, I wouldn't
resubmit.
|
| janfields |
But I might send them
something else if I figured out what I did wrong the first
time.
|
| cathie |
how can a group legally
change your work without permission?
|
| janfields |
Just one of the joys of
an "all rights" contract.
|
| janfields |
Though honestly...I've
had it done when it wasn't "strictly" legal. Pretty much all
submissions
|
| janfields |
carry with them the
implied permission for editing.
|
| janfields |
But rewriting is not
editing.
|
| janfields |
It's rewriting...and I
once had a piece rewritten where the editor introduced factual
inaccuracies.
|
| janfields |
And I didn't see it
until it was in print.
|
| janfields |
Not good...I caught a
LOT of grief from my sources for that one.
|
| janfields |
Right, ricksgal, if you
sell "all rights" the magazine can rewrite.
|
| janfields |
But they are not
legally allowed to do anything that can damage your
career.
|
| janfields |
I could have demanded a
return of my rights.
|
| charweb |
What's form
rejection?
|
| janfields |
A form rejection is a
letter the publisher creates that goes to everyone ( or nearly
everyone) they rejec
|
| janfields |
It makes the process
easier and faster for the editor.
|
| charweb |
Jan, where can I get the
good sample query/cover letters?
|
| janfields |
There are good ones in
the Market Guides
|
| janfields |
There are good ones in
the Children's Writers Guide to 2006
|
| janfields |
There are good ones
around on the net if you do a search.
|
| janfields |
There are really good
ones in Pipeline to Publication (I picked them :-)
|
| charweb |
what's the difference
between a story and an article?
|
| gladys1 |
Jan what is the
difference between; a story, a fiction piece and and
article
|
| janfields |
A story =
fiction
|
| janfields |
Unless it's a personal
experience piece told in a style like you would write
fiction.
|
| janfields |
Some religious
magazines like "true" stories but written just like
fiction.
|
| janfields |
With main characters,
lots of dialogue, scenes, specific detail, a plot,
etc.
|
| janfields |
An article = totally
not made up.
|
| janfields |
So an article =
nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
It can sound like a
story -- I've sold personal experience pieces that sounded very
story-like but weren't made up.
|
| janfields |
Well...maybe just the
teensiest bit ...um overly dramatic.
|
| janfields |
But not really made
up.
|
| d.s.stewart |
Jan, I'm putting together
a query letter for my picture book
|
| d.s.stewart |
but i'm not published.
How to I increase my chance to avoid
|
| d.s.stewart |
rejection
letters?
|
| janfields |
Oh man, I HATE writing
queries for picture books.
|
| janfields |
First, you're going to
want to quote from the book.
|
| janfields |
Pick the most lyrical,
exciting, fun, lively, PERFECT couple sentence.
|
| janfields |
Probably the first
couple...and quote them.
|
| janfields |
Then focus on the
FUN.
|
| janfields |
Show why kids are going
to be wild about this book because it's just so darned
entertaining.
|
| janfields |
So...for example, if I
were querying for one of my manuscripts...
|
| janfields |
I might
say...
|
| janfields |
"Miss Fiona's ferret
has a thirst for adventure...
|
| janfields |
So he sets off in the
springtime...
|
| janfields |
he joins the
circus
|
| janfields |
he sails with a band of
pirates...
|
| janfields |
he wiggles and flows
into the hearts on Broadway...
|
| janfields |
but when the cold wind
blows...
|
| janfields |
he heads home for a
snuggle by the fire.
|
| janfields |
Now...I would work on
making that nicer...but you get the idea...I would focus on what's
lively
|
| janfields |
what's
active
|
| janfields |
What's
exciting.
|
| janfields |
And then, I would
probably mention things that I know are popular in picture
books.
|
| janfields |
Like lively main
characters with unique personalities.
|
| janfields |
But the most important
thing is to make the book sound like fun.
|
| janfields |
And to make sure your
query letter prose is flawless.
|
| janfields |
I needs to sing...so
the editor knows your book will also.
|
| ricksgal |
not editor Jan,
article
|
| janfields |
Oh...wherever I messed
that up...sorry...I should type with my feet
|
| janfields |
I'd make fewer
mistakes.
|
| dreamer77 |
If a publisher rejects it
alright to send to an imprint if
|
| dreamer77 |
you feel it may be
appropriate for them?
|
| janfields |
I might try to find out
if the publisher does a lot of cross reading.
|
| janfields |
I know some publishers
have separate imprints but they sort of all get together to talk
about projects.
|
| janfields |
So a rejection from one
is a rejection from all.
|
| janfields |
With others it isn't
that way.
|
| janfields |
I'm not good at keeping
up with which does which.
|
| janfields |
So I would probably go
to the discussion boards at VerlaKay.com
|
| janfields |
And I would post under
the right thread...
|
| janfields |
"Hey, does anyone know
if the imprints at Penguin Putnam share manuscripts -- is a
rejection from one imprint, a rejection from all?
|
| janfields |
Someone there will
remember from a conference or something and let you
know.
|
| janfields |
That's a great source
of stuff like that.
|
| bethie2 |
What does it mean if they
say, "they don't have a need for
|
| bethie2 |
ideas
|
| janfields |
Some people actualy
just send "ideas" to publishers.
|
| janfields |
They don't write...they
aren't interested in writing.
|
| janfields |
They just have this
great "idea" for a book.
|
| janfields |
And they hope the
publisher will pay them.
|
| janfields |
It doesn't work that
way.
|
| janfields |
If a publisher actually
says that...it just means they've gotten so many "idea"
submissions
|
| janfields |
that they really want
them to stop.
|
| cathie |
what is pipeline to
publication?
|
| janfields |
It's an independent
study course from ICL...on magazine writing.
|
| janfields |
I wrote it...so I'm
really really partial to it.
|
| janfields |
Ego
thing.
|
| stretch |
What about Jacqueline
Horsfall? She's , my instructor
|
| janfields |
I don't know her...I'm
sorry. She's probably nifty though.
|
| janfields |
Okay...that puts us at
3pm
|
| janfields |
Thanks for the rush of
questions folks.
|
| janfields |
And for
coming.
|
| janfields |
Don't forget...Thursday
night...Lisa Mullarkey is talking about Successful School
Visits.
|
| janfields |
Oh...for the
transcript... Jacqueline Horsefall is terrific.
|
| janfields |
We got confirmation
:-)
|
