| janfields |
Join us today in the
AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for open forum on the topic:
Writing Fantasy. Come and join in five minutes from
now.
|
| janfields |
Today's open forum on
FANTASY WRITING will begin shortly. While you wait for chat to
begin, feel free to use your ASK A QUESTION button RIGHT BETWEEN THE
YELLOW “MAP” AND THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to post some
questions or comments on Fantasy -- anthropomophized animal stories,
magical stories, and stories set in other worlds. Chat will begin
two minutes from now.
|
| janfields |
Hi, and welcome to open
forum on Writing Fantasy. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and
today we are talking about Fantasy -- both for books and magazines.
If you want to ask a question and be sure I get a chance to see it
you'll need to use either the "ask a question" button on the bar
across the middle of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and
type your question. That passes the question to me and I can post
it.
|
| janfields |
Good Afternoon
everyone.
|
| janfields |
I'm delighted to be
chatting about fantasy today...
|
| janfields |
because I love
fantasy...
|
| janfields |
I like writing it and I
love reading it.
|
| janfields |
Fantasy covers a lot
more ground than many people think.
|
| janfields |
Fantasy technically
covers every story that could not happen.
|
| janfields |
So if you turn the work
crooked and look at it in a new way -- it's fantasy, even if it
doesn't involve magic.
|
| janfields |
But first...let's do a
couple good news bits.
|
| janfields |
Especially since I just
got slipped one.
|
| janfields |
and I LOVE GOOD
NEWS.
|
| chippy |
Jan, I asked a few weeks
ago about being published if you have a piece in a newsletter. Well,
as it does count, I have had a piece in our church newsletter every
month since april 2005. So I have more good news
then.
|
| janfields |
Hey...a monthly piece
certainly does count...Congratulations.
|
| janfields |
Lucky for them to get
to read it :-)
|
| janfields |
GOOD NEWS: Stephanie --
I thought I'd share some recent good news. I just received word
|
| my story "A Pig
with a Problem" will appear in the March 2007 issue. Although I had
a craft accepted to Wee Ones recently, the Dragonfly Spirit piece
will appear first and |
|
| byline! I also
received an honorable mention in a Byline character sketch contest,
my first contest entry |
|
| janfields |
Congratulations
Stephanie TOO...I love a two time good news day.
|
| janfields |
I like the title, by
the way...."A Pig with a Problem" sound so serious.
|
| janfields |
I'm so pleased that
y'all do have so much good news...it makes me just happy
happy.
|
| janfields |
So...anyway...back to
fantasy.
|
| janfields |
Fantasy in literary
clothes is called Speculative Fiction...
|
| janfields |
which (in some ways) is
a good title since Fantasy is about speculating...imagining "what if
something totally impossible were real!"
|
| janfields |
One of the most common
"totally impossibles" that writers like writing is the "talking
animal story"
|
| janfields |
Sometimes called the
"anthropomorphized animal story" just to be challenging to
type.
|
| janfields |
And ... as it turns
out...we have a question about there.
|
| janfields |
Victoria: I have a
question regarding the use of anthropomorphzed animals. I keep
hearing that these are no longer popular with today's editors (book
and magazine). My question(s): Are these in favor in today's market?
If so, do you know who, specifically, would accept such stories? And
finally, what animal (pig, dog, horse, etc.) would be more
acceptable?
|
| janfields |
First, totally
understand that talking animals are NOT out of
favor.
|
| janfields |
Kids love
them.
|
| janfields |
And tons of picture
books come out every year with talking animals.
|
| janfields |
Plus, magazines like
Highlights and Spider/Ladybug have talking animals in every
issue.
|
| janfields |
The reason editors are
twitchy about talking animals...
|
| janfields |
is that so many people
write a talking animal story for their very first ever written in
their life story.
|
| janfields |
And then they send it
to a picture book publisher...
|
| janfields |
or a
magazine.
|
| janfields |
And it isn't that the
editors don't want to see talking animals...
|
| janfields |
they mostly don't want
to see your very first ever writing story...no matter what it's
about.
|
| janfields |
Because 99.99% of the
time...out very first ever written story...well...it needs a lot of
work.
|
| janfields |
So, editors figure...if
they say NO TALKING ANIMALS...
|
| janfields |
then writers will AT
LEAST spend enough time on their work to find out what other kinds
of stories exist in the world of children's
writing.
|
| janfields |
Thus improving the
chance that their story is publishable.
|
| gladys1 |
talking animals isn't
fantasy they do talk we just can't understand them
|
| gladys1 |
at least I don't feel it
is fantasy
|
| janfields |
If you have animals
conversing without speech...
|
| janfields |
and only about logical
animal things...
|
| janfields |
like
food...
|
| janfields |
sex....
|
| janfields |
comfort...
|
| janfields |
then actually you can
squeak by calling it a "realistic animal story"
|
| janfields |
but as soon as you have
animals involved in abstract conversations...
|
| janfields |
which they simply don't
have (because if they could...they would have taken us out long long
ago.)
|
| janfields |
then you move from
realistic to fantasy.
|
| janfields |
I've seen animal
stories that slip into the animal's head but still remain pretty
steadfastly realistic...but they are very tough to
write.
|
| janfields |
Because you've got such
rigid limitations.
|
| wheelerclown |
Is there a trick to
deciding if a story works better with
|
| wheelerclown |
humans or with talking
animals? Or is it just a matter of
|
| wheelerclown |
taste?
|
| janfields |
First, understand that
MANY books and even some magazine stories
|
| janfields |
that appear to be
talking animal stories
|
| janfields |
actually AREN'T...if
you remove the illustrations and just read the text
|
| janfields |
you quickly realize it
probably was written to be about people.
|
| janfields |
And the editor decided
on animals with the illustrator because they appeal
|
| janfields |
so much to
kids.
|
| janfields |
Beyond that...if you
are writing a story that holds onto the animal's basic
animal-ness
|
| janfields |
Such as playing on the
awkwardness of a moose...for example,
|
| janfields |
to make a very funny
story about a Moose ballet.
|
| janfields |
Then usually, the
decision to use animals is for humor.
|
| janfields |
Animals can be very
funny when we hold onto their animal nature and then force them into
human roles.
|
| janfields |
Duck on a Bike for
example is funny because the animals are animals.
|
| janfields |
And the idea of how
different animals would go about locomoting on a bike is
funny.
|
| janfields |
And Don't Let the
Pigeon Drive the Bus is "really' about how kids beg to be allowed to
do something...
|
| janfields |
but it's an animal
story because the image of pigeon driving a bus is inherently
funny.
|
| janfields |
So, animals can add an
absurdity to a story that is appealing.
|
| janfields |
Animals are also
sometimes used when you need "adult" characters...since too many
adults can spoil a picture books.
|
| janfields |
But a book filled with
adult penguins will still be funny.
|
| chippy |
Should the animals only
talk among themselves, or can they talk to people as
well?
|
| janfields |
It is almost impossible
to sell a story where animals talk to people.
|
| janfields |
Even in a classic
example like Charlotte's Web, Fern only really is the
observer...listening in...
|
| janfields |
you don't see her
talking to the animals and them talking to her
directly.
|
| janfields |
Now...that's still an
ALMOST impossible.
|
| janfields |
If you write the story
well enough...anyting is possible, but you're probably trying
something incredibly hard.
|
| janfields |
Only you can decide if
you want to do that.
|
| chippy |
I'm thinking Little Red
Riding Hood etc.
|
| janfields |
Yeah...folktales
involve a lot of people/animal tales.
|
| janfields |
And they have a
different rulebook because although fantasy in form
|
| janfields |
They really have such
different rules.
|
| caq |
When creating a fantasy
world and characters, can normal characters be involved with the
fantasy characters or should you choose one or the
other.
|
| janfields |
I've seen lots of books
with normal people mixing with fantasy characters.
|
| janfields |
Actually that's become
almost a staple.
|
| janfields |
Kids love it because it
suggests that at any moment...they could wander into a world with
the fantastic
|
| janfields |
But it's an older kid
thing.
|
| janfields |
Magazine editors
totally don't want to mix fantasy and real with small
children.
|
| janfields |
And even most book
publishers are edgy about it.
|
| janfields |
I've noticed that even
when the text of a picture book slips between real and
fantasy.
|
| janfields |
The illustrations often
impy the child is imagining or dreaming.
|
| janfields |
But for older
kids...it's different
|
| janfields |
Books for kids 8+ often
have normal kids running upon the impossible.
|
| janfields |
A boy who finds a store
that was never there before and buys a dragon egg...thus becoming a
Dragon Hatcher.
|
| janfields |
A girl who finds
sunglasses that allow her to see that some normal looking people are
really witches or elves.
|
| janfields |
A girl who discovers
she is...in fact...a fairy who has been wearing a glamor her whole
life to keep her safe from the fey realm.
|
| janfields |
All of these have been
plots in successful fantasy novels.
|
| janfields |
So...yes, you can mix
normal and very very not normal as long as you're writing for kids
who are old enough not to confuse reality with
fantasy.
|
| eagleheart |
fantasy and real with
small children, what about Peter Pan?
|
| janfields |
Peter Pan is another
very old book like Alice in Wonderland (though hers is a dream
story) and Wizard of Oz (another dream story).
|
| janfields |
It's actually a pretty
older child's story.
|
| janfields |
A very young child
couldn't slog through the verbiage...even read
aloud.
|
| janfields |
But today...when
dealing with older kids, you don't need the "it was all a dream"
ending...in fact, editor hate it.
|
| janfields |
So you can just create
a world where kids can in fact fly with the right stuff....such as
how Dave Barry did Peter and the Starcatchers from Peter
Pan.
|
| janfields |
Today you need some
explanation for how fantasy intrudes on our world.
|
| janfields |
Such a Peter and the
Starcatchers offers (and Peter Pan does not).
|
| janfields |
Kids want fantasy but
they want it to make sense.
|
| janfields |
It's a little harder to
get them to suspend disbelief...but when you do it...they love the
books.
|
| justy213 |
what is a dream story?
I'm not familiar with that term
|
| janfields |
A dream story is one
that ends up with the reader discovering the story was all a
dream.
|
| janfields |
Like Wizard of OZ,
Alice in Wonderland.
|
| janfields |
Who Shot
Jr.
|
| janfields |
The Occurance at Owl
Creek Bridge.
|
| janfields |
That type of story
really really is nearly impossible to get
published.
|
| janfields |
Except in the "implied"
dream you sometimes see in picture books.
|
| chippy |
Where do books like Harry
Potter and Lord of the Rings fit in?
|
| janfields |
Harry Potter is
technicaly a "real world that happens to have magic we would all
know about if only we had the key" story.
|
| janfields |
So, it's a kind of
world building...but not really.
|
| janfields |
The magic world and our
exist side by side.
|
| janfields |
Lord of the Rings on
the other hand is what is called "HIGH FANTASY"
|
| janfields |
where
everything
|
| janfields |
every element is
created.
|
| janfields |
It's world
building...and the author makes up everything.
|
| janfields |
It's tough to write
because it can get dull very fast.
|
| janfields |
Harry Potter avoided
some of the challenges of World Building...
|
| janfields |
by being set in our
world...only a bit tilted.
|
| janfields |
So she didn't have to
explain EVERYTHING...just the really cool nifty
stuff.
|
| janfields |
While Lord of the Rings
couldn't take anything for granted...all of it needed to be set in
place for the reader.
|
| jolie |
I'm a bit late, but ask
is there plausible selling for fantasy mag stories?
|
| janfields |
Sure, I read a fantasy
story in SPIDER
|
| janfields |
where a girl is looking
for an adventure
|
| janfields |
And she runs across a
tiny tiny dragon in a puddle of water who needs her
help.
|
| janfields |
She agrees to help and
he grows big, huge and she helps save the kingdom he lives
in.
|
| janfields |
Only in the end, it
turns out the dragon didn't turn big...he turned her
small.
|
| janfields |
This magical realm is
tiny beyond belief...it coexists with us because we never notice
tiny things.
|
| janfields |
Hence, that is the
"plausible" idea upon which the story is built.
|
| janfields |
That's why we don't all
run into dragons...but the little girl did.
|
| janfields |
Some magical stories in
magazines are also set in magical worlds.
|
| janfields |
They often work by
playing on the pre-existing forms like magic
schools
|
| janfields |
Magic
tests.
|
| janfields |
And there is no
"regular world" but they avoid the challenge of total world building
in such a small word count by playing on worlds kids already
accept.
|
| caq |
Is it a good idea when
creating a fantasy world to draw a map and plan out your
world?
|
| janfields |
If you have a journey
story...and many fantasies are...
|
| janfields |
having a map is very
helpful.
|
| janfields |
Even a story like THREE
GOOD DEEDS by Vivian Vande Velde would benefit from the author
drawing a map
|
| janfields |
Since the main
character ends up going many places within his small
vilage
|
| janfields |
and it helps if you
turn in the right direction.
|
| janfields |
But that's true of any
story where you have a lot of movement in a set
space...
|
| janfields |
you might benefit from
a houseplan.
|
| janfields |
Or a neighborhood
map
|
| janfields |
Or a plan of the
school...anything to help you keep straight how to have the
characters move realistically.
|
| janfields |
Because sure as the
world, some reader will notice that you're having your character run
around in circles.
|
| wheelerclown |
In a fantasy series,
aren't the "facts" of the created world
|
| wheelerclown |
built a little more with
each book rather than all in
|
| janfields |
Well, you only have to
"build" what you need, for sure.
|
| janfields |
So how much world
building you do will depend on your plot.
|
| janfields |
But your audience will
be questioning at every moment.
|
| janfields |
For example, if you
have a world where everyone flies...your audience will question if
you have someone raising horses.
|
| janfields |
Why would he do that?
What good do they serve?
|
| janfields |
How do people guide
them?
|
| janfields |
Decisions you make in
your world affect other choices
|
| janfields |
and the reader will be
pondering each choice you make
|
| janfields |
They won't take
anything for granted just because it works that way in THIS
world
|
| janfields |
They will notice if it
makes less sense in THAT world.
|
| jolie |
suspension of disbelief,
then, is acquired when a plausible explanation is obtained,
right?
|
| janfields |
Actually children will
suspend disbelief unless you force them not to
|
| janfields |
They want to enjoy your
book.
|
| janfields |
But at some point, they
will start asking questions.
|
| janfields |
And if their questions
find no believable answers, they will render the harshest kid
judgement of all
|
| janfields |
That a story is
stupid.
|
| jolie |
maps could also serve as
a quiz, to assist in selling fantasy to magazine,
right?
|
| janfields |
If you made a really
nifty map that went with your story, I could see how you could do
some kind of puzzle with it.
|
| janfields |
Of couse, it would
depend on the format of the magazine what they would do with
it.
|
| janfields |
But I could see editors
thinking that is pretty cool.
|
| justy213 |
unless the horses fly
too...
|
| janfields |
True, horses could
fly...but why do you need them?
|
| janfields |
Certainly they won't
pull wagons.
|
| janfields |
Maybe they could bear
packs or loads better than a flying person.
|
| janfields |
But would they really
be better to ride than to fly?
|
| eggamy |
How about the Lion, the
witch
|
| janfields |
The Lion, the Witch,
and the Wardrobe is sort of High Fantasy...
|
| janfields |
but not totally because
it's basically allegory.
|
| janfields |
When a writer has a
purpose beyond story...sometimes certain conventions get ...skipped
over.
|
| janfields |
So...it's an odd
fit...but the world of Narnia is a bit high fantasy-ish but it's
internal conventions aren't consistent.
|
| janfields |
And you have the real
world, of course, with a portal...portals are highly out of favor
these days but kids love them.
|
| jolie |
what is the defining line
between High and Low Fiction?
|
| janfields |
Okay...I totally don't
know what low fantasy is...I have to admit we're dealing with
fantasy areas a bit outside my kin
|
| janfields |
I know High Fantasy is
world building.
|
| janfields |
And I think Low Fantasy
is a term that's fallen a bit out of favor as a catchall for "not
high fantasy"
|
| janfields |
Today you'll hear
speculative fiction (which sounds so much classier than low
fantasy)
|
| janfields |
And urban
fantasy...which just means the fantasy mixes with city life and edgy
city attitudes.
|
| justy213 |
what sells right now? So
much fantasy on bookstore shelves
|
| janfields |
Edgy fantasy for Young
Adult is still pretty hot.
|
| janfields |
The market for that is
still open...not over done.
|
| janfields |
Vampire fiction is
viewed with a jaundiced eye by editors but readers are still buying
it like crazy.
|
| janfields |
Twilight being a good
example.
|
| janfields |
Paranormal fantasy in
general is being tapered down a bit, though again...it's still
selling.
|
| janfields |
Anything that whiffs of
Harry Potter is being highly frowned upon...unless you're
British...American publishers still love british fantasy
writers.
|
| wheelerclown |
What is "edgy
fantasy"?
|
| janfields |
Edgy would be where the
fairies are mean.
|
| janfields |
Cruel...perverse.
|
| janfields |
More like fairies in
old time folklore really acted.
|
| janfields |
And the people are less
....innocent.
|
| janfields |
You'll see very GOTH
teens.
|
| janfields |
Drinking, maybe
drugs.
|
| janfields |
You may not see any
sex...
|
| janfields |
but there's almost
always heavy sexual tension.
|
| janfields |
A feeling that the
characters could.
|
| janfields |
And overall a feeling
of danger...edgy fantasy is very disquieting and
dark.
|
| jolie |
I meant, the where is the
defining line between High and Low Fantasy?
|
| janfields |
If the fantasy takes
place totally and completely outside the "real" world...you have
high fantasy.
|
| janfields |
There may be a nod that
a "real world" exists...and purists would say that bumps you out of
high fantasy.
|
| janfields |
But as long as the BULK
of the story is a totally different world where different rules
apply...you probalby have high fantasy.
|
| janfields |
And you almost always
have different creatures...creatures you don't find in the real
world.
|
| wheelerclown |
I read JK Rowling creates
more facts about HP's world than
|
| wheelerclown |
could ever make the
books. Is that a good idea for any
|
| wheelerclown |
fantasy
story?
|
| janfields |
If you like doing
that...sure.
|
| janfields |
She actually likes
doing that.
|
| janfields |
And much of the appeal
of the books is in what thing is going to happen next that is
totally out of this world.
|
| janfields |
Part of that is because
she's not...technically a master at plotting and
characterization.
|
| janfields |
But she's great at doo
dads...all the unique bits and pieces that catch the reader's
imagination.
|
| janfields |
So, she really needs
all that...because it's a huge portion of the appeal of the
books.
|
| janfields |
And certainly kids love
cool stuff.
|
| janfields |
But you can get too
wrapped up in the "gadgets" and lose the sense of plot and character
that really is essential to selling a book today.
|
| janfields |
Especially if you
aren't British
|
| janfields |
or a
celebrity.
|
| wheelerclown |
Would earth in an early
period of magic
|
| wheelerclown |
be considered High
Fantasy?
|
| janfields |
Ehhh...yeah
probably.
|
| janfields |
You don't really have
to get caught up in terminology.
|
| janfields |
uh...brb...just a
sexc
|
| janfields |
sec
|
| janfields |
Sorry...thought someone
was at the door.
|
| wheelerclown |
The wiz of Oz movie was a
dream, but I didn't think the book
|
| wheelerclown |
ended that
way.
|
| janfields |
Ahhh...could easily
be.
|
| janfields |
I haven't read the book
since I was ten.
|
| janfields |
Sorry -- movie version
only...leave it to movies to take the easy way out.
|
| janfields |
Okay, that puts us at
3pm...thanks everyone...for the cool
questions.
|
