| janfields |
Join us today in the
AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for an open forum chat. Today's
topic is "Trimming Word Count." Having trouble meeting those tight
word counts -- are you feeling like you're cutting the life right
out of your stories? Come and join in five minutes from
now.
|
| janfields |
Today's Open Forum Chat
on the topic of "Trimming Word Count" will begin shortly. While you
wait for chat to begin, feel free to use your ASK A QUESTION button
RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to
post some questions or comments on trimming words, scenes, etc to
make your writing fit within a specific word count. Chat will begin
two minutes from now.
|
| janfields |
Hi, and welcome to Open
Forum. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and today we're going
to chat about words -- specifically how to get rid of a few. If you
want to ask a question and be sure I get a chance to see it...
you'll need to use either the "ask a question" button on the bar
across the middle of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and
type your question. That passes the question to me and I can post it
to answer for you and in the transcript. Now, let's get
going.
|
| janfields |
Hi guys...I wanted to
give a quick warning...
|
| janfields |
I'm having a little
trouble with the power at my house...
|
| janfields |
if it should go out
suddenly...um...chat will be shortened
substantially.
|
| janfields |
But it won't be
personal. :-)
|
| janfields |
I know we've talked
some about writing to specific word counts
before...
|
| janfields |
But it's a problem that
a lot of writers really struggle with.
|
| janfields |
I know among my
students...many of them have serious problems making their stories
fit within the word counts.
|
| janfields |
As a result...I get a
lot of synospses instead of stories.
|
| janfields |
So I figured it was
worth revisiting and talking about why that
happens...
|
| janfields |
and what to do about
it.
|
| janfields |
But first...a
smattering of questions.
|
| janfields |
ERIN: How long is too
long for a young adult novel (10-14) 80,000, 85,000 words? I'm
wondering if my rejections are due to the story being too
long.
|
| janfields |
According to data
collected by SCBWI...
|
| janfields |
The average word count
of a YA novel is
|
| janfields |
44,000 to 55,000
words.
|
| janfields |
Since I know this chat
software eats numbers...I should write that out.
|
| janfields |
forty-four thousand to
fifty-five thousand.
|
| janfields |
Now, that would seem to
imply that eighty to eighty-five thousand is too
long.
|
| janfields |
But TWILIGHT, which was
a first novel, had a word count of over one hundred
thousand.
|
| janfields |
Also, middle grade
novels...
|
| janfields |
Magyk and Amulet of
Samarkind both came in well over one hundred
thousand.
|
| janfields |
So these books are
being published with higher word counts.
|
| janfields |
It makes some different
what you are writing about.
|
| janfields |
Chick lit, for example,
YA with that sassy light teen voice...
|
| janfields |
tend to come in shorter
...usually well under seventy thousand.
|
| janfields |
While fantasy has a
tendency to come in longer.
|
| janfields |
But you need to take
the number of words you need to tell the story.
|
| gladys1 |
what would an under
30,000 word ms be classified as
|
| janfields |
I have seen a very few
YA books under 40,000...I can't come up with a title off the top of
my head.
|
| janfields |
But they have been very
light.
|
| janfields |
Humor can be difficult
to sustain in longer plots.
|
| janfields |
If your book COULD sell
to a middle-grade audience...
|
| janfields |
thirty thousand is
within the word count of many publishers.
|
| janfields |
But it could be a
problem for YA>
|
| janfields |
It's a bit too long to
be a novella...
|
| janfields |
and a bit too short to
sustain a whole book as a first time author.
|
| janfields |
So you might want to
ask yourself if it might benefit from some
deepening?
|
| janfields |
Maybe a subplot woven
in...
|
| janfields |
or an expansion of
time...or setting...
|
| janfields |
And you might want to
be sure you're creating the bulk of the book INSIDE
scenes.
|
| janfields |
But under 30,000 for a
YA...it's a little short.
|
| janfields |
By the
way...
|
| janfields |
A great place to learn
about word counts in published books is at
http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp#quicksearch
|
| janfields |
At the
http://www.renlearn.com site, they sell quizzes
|
| janfields |
Which we don't need, of
course
|
| janfields |
But in the listings for
quizzes available for each book...
|
| janfields |
they also tell (1) what
the word count is for almost any book you can think of in
print
|
| janfields |
and (2) the actual
reading level of the book.
|
| janfields |
Reading level is based
on complexity of sentence/paragraph structure and
vocabulary.
|
| janfields |
Not based on
content...which might push a book up in reader age without making it
"harder" to read.
|
| janfields |
I find that site very
useful.
|
| janfields |
It's a great place to
compare your work in progress against word lengths of similar books
in print.
|
| janfields |
ritrbiz: I have the
opposite problem, my stories always run too short. What can I do
about that besides just adding a lot of filler?
|
| janfields |
Personally, I tend to
write short...
|
| janfields |
in magazine writing,
that's really rarely a problem.
|
| janfields |
Editors like you if you
write short (assuming the story still feels complete and
strong...
|
| janfields |
and you've got good
characterization).
|
| janfields |
But for books...it can
be a problem.
|
| janfields |
In manuscripts I've
read...
|
| janfields |
the most common reasons
for very short books are...
|
| janfields |
single
plot.
|
| janfields |
Novels rarely have a
single plot that drives through from beginning to
end.
|
| janfields |
They have a main
plot
|
| janfields |
and subplots that
connect and relate to the main plot
|
| janfields |
while also moving
ahead.
|
| janfields |
Often the subplots
serve to show us news sides of the main plot.
|
| janfields |
Or show more about the
main character or other characters.
|
| janfields |
For example, in a
manuscript I have in progress...the main plot is a boy who has found
a genie in a bottle and he wants to let the genie go free before the
thing messes up his life -- because he fully expects it
will.
|
| janfields |
One sub plot is the
boy's sister who wants a genie...and wants it to help her get her
mom to be more of a Mrs. Cleaver type.
|
| janfields |
The two plots work
together...actually with the girl's motivations working against the
main character.
|
| janfields |
But they also expand
the story...making it longer.
|
| janfields |
Another issue I see a
lot in short manuscripts is a tendency to skimp on
showing.
|
| janfields |
I see a lot of talking
head dialogue with no rooting in setting and scene.
|
| janfields |
We need detail in order
to believe in your characters and believe they live in a real
world.
|
| caq |
In response to Glady's
question. I remembered reading word counts for books in my book
course manual lesson one. Under 30,000 could be: 7 - 10 NF or F,
8/9-12 NF or F, 9 - 13/10 anbd up NF or F and 12 an dup Fictin or
NF, plus the younger ages before 8.
|
| janfields |
Nonfiction is almost
always shorter than fiction.
|
| janfields |
It's really hard to get
kids interested in very very wordy or scholarly
nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
And I've seen middle
grade pretty much across the group at that age
level.
|
| janfields |
So, thanks for
sharing
|
| janfields |
Word count can be very
puzzling.
|
| janfields |
Which is one reason why
I like getting my range from books similar to the one I'm working
on.
|
| janfields |
Making that website a
true miracle...instand word counts!
|
| janfields |
MOLLY: Should I be
thinking about word count while I'm writing? I always go way
over.
|
| janfields |
Yes and no...mostly
no.
|
| janfields |
If you're writing for a
magazine story and you know you must stay under 500 words (for
example)
|
| janfields |
You do need to go into
it realizing that certain things are going to have to
happen...
|
| janfields |
You'll need few
characters.
|
| janfields |
Short time frame
(hours...maybe a day or two...not months)
|
| janfields |
And single
plot.
|
| janfields |
But within that sort of
mental constriction.
|
| janfields |
I just write the
story...and yes, it's always long.
|
| janfields |
That's because I make
it point to give plenty of specific
detail...showing
|
| janfields |
As I create
scenes.
|
| janfields |
But after I go through
the rough draft (which is usually at least 1/3 too
long)
|
| janfields |
I just begin
asking...is all this stuff PURPOSEFUL...and I cut out what
isn't.
|
| eggamy |
How you determine word
count according to age, when there ar
|
| eggamy |
are different reading
abitly in the same class
|
| janfields |
Basically, unless
you're writing for educational publishers...
|
| janfields |
who have given you very
specific guidelines on vocab/wordcount/etc...
|
| janfields |
you don't worry about
it.
|
| janfields |
Your book is going to
reach a specific subset of the age group anyway...
|
| janfields |
those interested in
your subject, genre, sex of main
character...whatever
|
| janfields |
And if you do your
writing job well enough...
|
| janfields |
and a kid who doesn't
like to read so much gets introduced to the book...
|
| janfields |
it's amazing how well
they will stick with it.
|
| janfields |
I have heard amazing
stories of kids who HATED books...
|
| janfields |
would NOT finish a
book...
|
| janfields |
period.
|
| janfields |
And then read all of
Harry Potter...not a short book by anyone's
definition.
|
| janfields |
So...write the length
you need in the book...while being aware that publishers do like it
to be similar in length to what else is out there like
it...
|
| janfields |
and you should be
fine.
|
| janfields |
The fact that
publishers like to see exactly what is selling, only
different...
|
| janfields |
means word count is
less about age group...
|
| janfields |
than about type of
book.
|
| janfields |
For example, publishers
like fat fantasy books...
|
| janfields |
but skinny chick
lit.
|
| janfields |
A "problem-novel" can
be longer than a "boy novel"
|
| janfields |
Because publishers want
to go with what's selling.
|
| dawnlee71 |
Is it better to leave out
descriptive deail, like hair color, for magazine MS's, and let the
reader decide what the characters look like, to keep your word count
down?
|
| janfields |
Personally, I ONLY do
hair color...
|
| janfields |
and general physical
description
|
| janfields |
when it makes a
difference to the plot.
|
| janfields |
Does the reader NEED to
know that a character has buzz cut red hair?
|
| janfields |
Maybe if it's an
essential part of the character...like a girl with a buzz
cut.
|
| janfields |
So, ask yourself...does
this detail reveal something important about who the character
IS?
|
| janfields |
If not...it's just not
that important.
|
| janfields |
Now, the only place
where that really really isn't true.
|
| janfields |
Is chick lit...readers
like to know every detail about how characters look
|
| janfields |
and what they are
wearing.
|
| janfields |
And how they
move.
|
| janfields |
etc.
|
| janfields |
But in most other
work...YOU need to know everything because these characters should
be very real to you. But readers need to know just what is
purposeful.
|
| janfields |
Plus, that helps keep
you from being really embarrassed when you wrote a blond character
and the illustrator painted her as a red head because it works
better in the composition.
|
| gladys1 |
if you are down to under
a hundred words over the limit, can you cut ands buts etc, and start
new sentences?
|
| janfields |
When I'm within a
hundred words.
|
| janfields |
I try rewriting every
sentence a couple times.
|
| janfields |
To see if I can make it
better while making it shorter.
|
| janfields |
That might mean cutting
complex sentences into simple ones.
|
| janfields |
But it also might mean
a real restructure with different words.
|
| janfields |
And sometimes when I am
doing that.
|
| janfields |
I end up adding to some
sentences...and taking away from others.
|
| janfields |
Because I'm still
always looking for the best sentence.
|
| janfields |
Besides...I shoot for
100 words under word count limits (at least) so...I tend to do a lot
of rephrasing to get it short.
|
| janfields |
And sometimes while I'm
doing that...I realize I have whole scenes that I just don't
need...and BAM...I've got a free 300 words!
|
| fermin |
I have a 40,000 wd ms for
a middle-grade contemp fantasy. I notice most of these are in the
25-30,000 range. Worth the effort to cut just for the sake of word
count?
|
| janfields |
Oh, man...Middle grade
contemporary fantasy CAN go pretty high
|
| janfields |
So I would NOT worry
about 40,000 words...not at all.
|
| janfields |
In fact, I would worry
a lot more these days about 25,000 words.
|
| janfields |
Unless...I had a male
protag and a lot of humor...those often run
shorter.
|
| janfields |
But I still think
you're well within safe counts.
|
| coloradokate |
For magazines, exact word
count is important--but different systems count words differently.
For example, Word counts characters with spaces before them as
words, so an ellipsis like this: . . . counts as three words. Other
systems, I don't know, they just count differently. So if I'm just
at, say, one thousand words, using my counting system, but a
magazine counts my ms as one thousand five, will they throw it
out?
|
| janfields |
That's one reason why I
make sure to go well under.
|
| janfields |
Also...word counts are
the whole picture for a magazine.
|
| janfields |
There's how it fits the
page.
|
| janfields |
For example, I recently
saw a manuscript (a very good one) where the writer used an unusual
structure.
|
| janfields |
Making single sentence
paragraphs for comic effect.
|
| janfields |
Lots of single sentence
paragraphs.
|
| janfields |
Which meant that even
though he was UNDER word count.
|
| janfields |
He was too long...that
piece would stretch way way out on a page.
|
| janfields |
So...if you don't shave
your word count too close...you don't have to worry so much about
whether your program is counting funky.
|
| janfields |
And sometimes..you can
be under...but still too long. Editors are very good at looking at a
manuscript.
|
| janfields |
And knowing if it's
going to fit.
|
| janfields |
They do it all day
long.
|
| janfields |
So...they aren't thrown
much by odd word counting software.
|
| janfields |
PLUS...if you're over
by a few words but they LOVE the piece...they'll have you cut and
they'll buy it.
|
| janfields |
They hammer on writers
about word counts...and it is important...
|
| janfields |
but an editor who truly
loves a piece that is relatively close will have you cut it every
time.
|
| janfields |
ICL did an anthology
called First Time Authors...some of you may have seen
it.
|
| janfields |
They asked the writers
what kind of editing they had to do
|
| janfields |
and almost all of them
said the editor had them cut it shorter...
|
| janfields |
or the editor cut it
shorter herself.
|
| janfields |
So obviously...they
weren't rejected for being alittle long.
|
| janfields |
Though ultimately...the
piece still ran at the short length the magazines
need.
|
| casey |
When I have to cut down
word count, I check to see if all my characters are really needed.
If not, just taking out a character may even cut out a scene or
two.
|
| janfields |
Yeah, lots of times
extra characters creep into a work.
|
| janfields |
One thing you should
always check for is to see if every character
|
| janfields |
is totally
distinctive.
|
| janfields |
I've seen manuscripts
where dialogue could honestly be assigned at random
|
| janfields |
between some
characters...
|
| janfields |
in a case like
that...cut down until you have a core of distinctive characters who
CANNOT be interchanged.
|
| janfields |
Never have "generic
kids" ...not in main characters or important
characters.
|
| janfields |
And don't do it with
parents either.
|
| janfields |
Lots of times, dialogue
can be handed out to either mom or dad...
|
| janfields |
but mom and dad
shouldn't be one person split in two.
|
| janfields |
If they are...get rid
of one and keep the other.
|
| caq |
If you do not put spaces
between the dots of the elipsses it does not ocunt as three words.
The proper way is ... not . . . , I believe.
|
| janfields |
Yeah, the proper way is
not.
|
| janfields |
But editors HATE WORDS
autoformatting on elipsis
|
| janfields |
So if you're doing them
the right way...turn off autoformatting.
|
| janfields |
It makes them hard to
see.
|
| jolie |
generic parents make them
invisible to the reader, and that
|
| jolie |
is precisely what I
want.
|
| janfields |
If your parents don't
need to be in the story...kick them out.
|
| janfields |
Save the word
count.
|
| janfields |
But if they need to be
in the story...then they are characters.
|
| janfields |
And characters need to
be real...not generic.
|
| janfields |
Most of the time,
magazine stories are actually improved if the writer is
forbidden
|
| janfields |
to let parents into the
story...
|
| janfields |
because too many
writers don't know what to do with the parents.
|
| janfields |
They either over relate
to them..letting the parents take over the story.
|
| janfields |
Or they turn them into
mini object lessons...where the parents are evil...yelling,
belittling, being obnoxious.
|
| janfields |
Neither thing works for
magazine editors.
|
| janfields |
Now in books...you have
to remember you're not dealing with the real world.
|
| janfields |
In the real world, kids
deal with their parents constantly and have little
autonomy...
|
| janfields |
in books, they often
have a lot of autonomy and parents stay out of the book unless they
are a necessay part of the story.
|
| janfields |
And when they
are...they need to be as real as the secondary kid
characters.
|
| dawnlee71 |
Cna you give an example
of non-generic kids
|
| janfields |
Okay, I read a generic
kid story recently...the kid wanted to be an adult.
|
| janfields |
Didn't think being a
kid was much fun.
|
| janfields |
Ended up finding out
being an adult was hard work.
|
| janfields |
Ended up appreciating
the adults for what they did.
|
| janfields |
It was a story about
appreciating adults...
|
| janfields |
and the kid had not
sense of unique self...
|
| janfields |
we got nothing unusual
in his speaking habits...
|
| janfields |
nothing unusual in
detail about his very specific wants or needs.
|
| janfields |
I've also read
historical pieces with a main character with brothers and
sisters.
|
| janfields |
But the brothers all
sound alike...they have no personal, very specific
motivation.
|
| janfields |
Nothing that makes you
think -- wow, I think I like Brother Ted but Brother Harry is not my
favorite.
|
| janfields |
Instead Ted, Harry, and
Billy Bob all sound alike and thus any one of them could enter the
scene and be the "sounding board" for the main
character.
|
| janfields |
And we can't tell the
difference.
|
| janfields |
While my brothers, for
example, could not have been mistaken for one
another.
|
| janfields |
Jesse was constantly in
a world of his own, stubborn, but never mean.
|
| janfields |
Lester was a bully, but
smart...very sharply aware of his surroundings. And laughed a
lot.
|
| janfields |
So..if I made those two
brothers...you would have no trouble telling one from
another.
|
| coloradokate |
So using lots of dialogue
(and therefore having many short paragraphs) could make a story too
long. (Grumble...)
|
| janfields |
Actually, it
depends...but yeah...have you ever noticed how little dialogue
exists in most teen short stories?
|
| janfields |
That happens because
teen stories are almost always VAST in time frame.
|
| janfields |
So..something have to
give.
|
| janfields |
And often you'll get
reported dialogue...with only one or two real
lines.
|
| janfields |
And long
transitions.
|
| janfields |
It's because the scope
is forcing up the word count and something has to give
somewhere.
|
| janfields |
So you lose dialogue
and scene.
|
| janfields |
That's ANOTHER reason
teen short stories are so often in first person.
|
| janfields |
You can hide a LOT of
lack of scene by using good distinctive first person
voice
|
| dawnlee71 |
Somewhat like the seven
dwarfs-each has their own trait-but maybe not so cut &
dry
|
| janfields |
Right...with seven
minor characters in so many scenes.
|
| janfields |
Disney needed a quick
MARKER system
|
| janfields |
Otherwise, they're just
little people taking up space.
|
| janfields |
So they used a kind of
character short-hand...but within that...
|
| janfields |
you still only felt
like you "knew" in any real way a few of the
characters.
|
| janfields |
I mean...how much
character do you get from sneezy or sleepy?
|
| eggamy |
Can we still do words by
lines per pg. 250 full Ms pg
|
| janfields |
For books, yeah, pretty
much.
|
| janfields |
For magazines...just
use the count by your software.
|
| janfields |
But keep in mind that
if you're covering a lot of pages
|
| janfields |
with your few
words...the editor is going to "see" the piece as
longer
|
| janfields |
than it
is.
|
| janfields |
But...by the same
token..
|
| janfields |
Editors LIKE
manuscripts that are light on the page
|
| janfields |
with lots of white
space.
|
| janfields |
It just puts a lot of
pressure on you to write short.
|
| janfields |
And that puts us on the
hour.
|
| janfields |
Wow, that one flew
by...and my power didn't even go
out.
|
