| janfields |
Join us today in the
AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for Open Forum. Today's topic is
Professionalism and Ethics. Come and join in five minutes from
now.
|
| janfields |
Today's Open Forum on
the topic of "Professionalism and Ethics" will begin shortly. While
you wait for chat to begin, feel free to use your ASK A QUESTION
button RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND THE RED QUESTION MARK IN
ICHAT to post some questions or comments on either professionalism
(how to conduct yourself like a professional -- right from the
beginning of your career) and ethics (right and wrong in the
publishing world). Chat will begin two minutes from
now.
|
| janfields |
Hi, and welcome to
Tuesday Open Forum. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and we're
here to chat about Professionalism and Ethics. If you want to ask a
question or make a comment and be sure I see it and that it makes it
all the way to transcript...you'll need to use either the "ask a
question" button on the bar across the middle of your screen. OR
type a backslash / followed immediately by the word ask...then space
once and type your question. That passes the question to me and I
can post it. Now, let's get going.
|
| janfields |
Today's topic is not
one I chose...someone asked me to cover it...
|
| janfields |
To look at what some
things really mean...plagiarism...copyright
violations...
|
| janfields |
And over the weekend at
the NESCBWI conference, this was a topic very
much...
|
| janfields |
a part of many speakers
comments.
|
| janfields |
Partly people commented
on how easily one really can "accidentally"
plagiarize...
|
| janfields |
And Partly people
commented on how confused some folks are about what constitutes
plagiarism.
|
| janfields |
I know when I went to
school...it was considered okay for little kids to read a single
reference...
|
| janfields |
and simply put the same
stuff "in your own words."
|
| janfields |
And we figured that
just meant shift the words around a little.
|
| janfields |
And some of that
thought follows many people all the way into college...and sometimes
beyond.
|
| janfields |
But first...before I
dive into full-blown pontificating...
|
| janfields |
GOODNEWS
|
| janfields |
I love good
news.
|
| janfields |
In case no one
noticed...GoneWest has a shiney new
diploma...yippeeee.
|
| janfields |
Ohhh...I shall think
good thoughts toward the retrieval of CAQ's diploma,
too.
|
| janfields |
May it bubble up from
the moving morass.
|
| janfields |
More goodie
newsy
|
| janfields |
GOOD NEWS: IAMNINA --
Home Education Magazine has accepted for publication my article
called 'Picture Perfect'. She said it would appear later this year.
This was my first 'real' sale!
|
|
|
| janfields |
I LOVE first sale
stories...yea yea yea.
|
| janfields |
|
| published her
second book, a devotional: I SEE GOD IN SIMPLE THINGS |
|
| janfields |
GOOD NEWS: KAY: My
first book will be released on May 2nd. It is an anthology of short
stories entitled POKE SALAD. It has stories for young and old alike.
There are stories about the past, some historical fiction, some
truth and some legend. A good book to have on your night
stand.
|
| janfields |
Having a book in your
hand is a nice feeling.
|
| janfields |
GOOD NEWS: NADIA ALI
will be published in the June 2006 edition of Cat Fancy. It's a
piece about cat body language.
|
| janfields |
I should pick up that
issue...I always suspected my cat was swearing at me in cat body
language.
|
| janfields |
GOOD NEWS: CHIPPY -- I
had piece in a newsletter, which would give me some good news to
share. It was an adults newsletter and one of about six pieces put
in.
|
|
|
| janfields |
It's so nice to get
that first publication and feel like you're moving down the
path.
|
| janfields |
So...HOORAY for the
good newsies...I'm always happy to hear them.
|
| janfields |
Now...a word about the
naughtiness of plagiarism...
|
| janfields |
Is it a bigger problem
in the US...not really...we just like scandal.
|
| janfields |
In fact, since most US
students are not ROTE learners...we actually probably see less
accidental plagiarism than some other countries.
|
| janfields |
Though at the
conference...many of the writers I spoke with could cite an example
from their own works in progress where they spotted something they
had written and realized it owed a bit too much to a favorite book
from their younger years.
|
| janfields |
There actually is no
LAW against plagiarism...copyright law is quite different...
plagiarism is an ethics issue, not a legal one.
|
| janfields |
And in some
countries...it's no issue at all.
|
| janfields |
The kinds of examples
seen in the Opal Mehta book would not be considered wrong...but a
kind of homage.
|
| janfields |
Because they are small
examples...and not exact copies.
|
| janfields |
Mostly they used the
same placing, tone, and feel...but not exactly the same
words.
|
| janfields |
Here in the
US...writers consider that kind of heavy borrowing pretty
bad.
|
| janfields |
Ok...a question or
two...
|
| janfields |
DURINDA: I saw the
article where the author of Opal Mehta said all the plagiarism was
'accidental.' How likely is it that someone can accidentally
plagiarize someone?
|
| janfields |
At the conference, it
became pretty obvious that it's VERY easy.
|
| janfields |
Especially if you were
a huge REreader.
|
| janfields |
Writers are always
looking at patterns and falling in love with words.
|
| janfields |
And many of us did it
as kids.
|
| janfields |
So, we read our
favorite books over and over and over.
|
| janfields |
And some of the tone,
pacing, and rhythm of that can color what we do
now.
|
| janfields |
The problem lies in
times it colors too much
|
| delima-e |
if you list a biblo would
it still be plagiarism
|
| janfields |
In nonfiction, no -- a
rephrased fact from nonfiction is not consider
plagiarism.
|
| janfields |
A rephrased WHOLE
article...yeah, that would be a problem.
|
| janfields |
But because nonfiction
is built of facts, the standard is somewhat looser.
|
| janfields |
And you're giving
attribution.
|
| janfields |
If you did...by the
way...rephrase a whole article...
|
| janfields |
using the same
organization and facts as the original...
|
| janfields |
but your own
words...
|
| janfields |
that would be a
copyright violation...and legally actionable.
|
| janfields |
EVEN with
attribution.
|
| janfields |
Copyright says you
cannot create a derrivative work (a piece clearly totally dependent
upon another) unless you own the original
copyright...
|
| janfields |
or have licensed that
right.
|
| janfields |
AURORA: Since basically
there is nothing new under the Sun, don't all of our story ideas
come from somewhere?
|
| janfields |
Yes...but the question
is whether you were inspired by the original
|
| janfields |
Or dependent upon
it.
|
| janfields |
If you read all the
Little House books, for example.
|
| janfields |
And then one day wrote
a book about a pioneer girl.
|
| janfields |
That's
inspired.
|
| janfields |
If you wrote a book
about the little pioneer girl and her blind sister and her Pa who
played the fiddle and her Ma who lost a baby...
|
| janfields |
then you were
dependent.
|
| janfields |
MARYS: So if we read a
pattern for a mag article and write an article for the magazine,
we're involved in plagiarism?
|
| janfields |
If you read Sweet 16,
for example,
|
| janfields |
and notice that all
their "true stories" read like fiction...scenes, dialogue, teen
voice.
|
| janfields |
So you write your true
story from your teen years using scenes, dialogue and teen voice --
that's not plagiarism.
|
| janfields |
That's paying attention
to what a magazine wants.
|
| janfields |
But if you write an
article on snakes...
|
| janfields |
by reading an article
in Smithsonian on snakes.
|
| janfields |
And use the exact same
organization.
|
| janfields |
And the same
facts.
|
| janfields |
But use your own
words...and make it for kids and sell it to
Highlights.
|
| janfields |
That's
plagiarism.
|
| janfields |
And that's why
magazines insist upon more than one source.
|
| janfields |
GINNY: I guess I'm
confused. I didn't think paraphrazing and plagiarizing were the same
thing. Can you explain that?
|
| janfields |
Basically plagiarizing
happens when something YOUR writing...
|
| janfields |
would not
exist...
|
| janfields |
if you had not read
something specific in someone else's writing.
|
| janfields |
It might be an exact
copy.
|
| janfields |
Or it might be a
paraphrase...but it's very dependent upon one specific other
writer's work.
|
| chippy |
What would the recent Da
Vinci Code argument fall under?
|
| janfields |
There have been a
number of accusations made against the Da Vinci
Code...
|
| janfields |
some were
plagiarism...he actually copied some stuff word for word and put it
in the book.
|
| janfields |
He felt it wouldn't be
plagiarism because they were "facts" from a nonfiction research
work.
|
| janfields |
But they were
credited...and they were word for word.
|
| janfields |
So it was
plagiarism..no doubt about it. But it wasn't a copyright violation
because it was only a few words
|
| janfields |
from a much longer
work.
|
| janfields |
Now The Da Vinci Code
has also been hit with copyright suits...
|
| janfields |
saying the work as a
whole is too derrivative of other works...
|
| janfields |
that the book, as a
whole, could not exist without Brown's heavy reliance onthe total
work of another writer.
|
| janfields |
So...two different
things.
|
| bethie2 |
What about rewrites of
older stories?
|
| janfields |
If a story is old
enough to be in Public Domain (which means older than...hmmm...early
20s I think)...
|
| janfields |
Anyway, if it's legally
Public Doman, then you cannot violate it's
copyright.
|
| janfields |
It doesn't have
one.
|
| janfields |
So you can republish it
entirely...and publishers do this regularly.
|
| janfields |
You can also use it as
the basis of a new work...a derrivative work.
|
| janfields |
This is where
retellings of folktales and fairy tales come in.
|
| janfields |
They take a very old
story, one not protected by copyright.
|
| janfields |
And they retell it in a
very new way...
|
| janfields |
The new work is
dependent on the old one, but it is not a copy of
it.
|
| janfields |
So...it isn't
plagiarism because it usually has a totally new tone, pace, voice,
etc...and usually has new words.
|
| janfields |
And it's not a
copyright violation, because there is no copyright on the
original.
|
| janfields |
Aurora: I am curently
writing a retold fairy tale of Sleeping Beauty from the perspective
of the fairies.
|
| janfields |
That would be
fine...but be totally absolutely certain...
|
| janfields |
that you are retelling
from the old old old folkstory...
|
| janfields |
and NOT from the Disney
movie.
|
| janfields |
Or Disney will eat you
for lunch.
|
| janfields |
All Disney fairytales
are completely under copyright.
|
| delima-e |
is there a place to find
out if old stories have a copyright
|
| janfields |
If you're interested in
fairytales...
|
| janfields |
There is a great
website about them...suralaine...I believe.
|
| janfields |
Let me grab the
url
|
| janfields |
http://p203.ezboard.com/fsurlalunefairytalesfrm1
|
| janfields |
That's the discussion
board...but you can get to the site from there.
|
| janfields |
They have a lot of
links to help you research the originals of fairy
tales.
|
| janfields |
Also, you can Google
"public domain" and "fairy tales"
|
| janfields |
or "folk
tales"
|
| janfields |
But, I always look to
Sualaine first...fascinating place if you like old
tales.
|
| aurora1 |
Thanks, that will
help
|
| eggamy |
Does the same rule apply
to retold ledgeds?
|
| janfields |
Yes, just be sure
you're retelling from the old versions.
|
| janfields |
So many movies and
books have been made based on these stories.
|
| janfields |
And it's REALLY easy to
"think" we're using original stuff
|
| janfields |
When we're really
channelling Disney
|
| janfields |
MARY: With the recent
news report of the college student who was accepted and made
headlines for plagarism it makes me think getting A NAME in the
media may be a way of becoming a known writer albeit a failed one
but the name was spread far and wide for the next book then
publishers at least have heard of you but personally I prefer the
old fashioned way! What is your opinion ?
|
|
|
| janfields |
Unfortunately, the girl
who wrote Opal Mehta is not going to find this positive for her
career...
|
| janfields |
not like the guy who
made up the memoir...
|
| janfields |
It
|
| janfields |
It's simply not a good
idea to get your publisher involved in talk...
|
| janfields |
that includes fans
suggesting someone get sued.
|
| janfields |
Publishers get very
twitchy about that.
|
| janfields |
So...that kind of
noteriety does not help one's career.
|
| delima-e |
original stuff, from
where Disney/other got it from correct?
|
| janfields |
Right.
|
| janfields |
Though many fairy
tale/folktalkes owe their roots to the oral
tradition...
|
| janfields |
so you may be able to
find several versions...or even dozens.
|
| janfields |
And if you read all of
them...it can help you find a totally new perspective to launch your
own.
|
| janfields |
DURINDA: How do things
like Opal Mehta and the memoir guy happen? Why aren't publishers
paying more attention?
|
| janfields |
Right now...publishers
are paying a lot of attention to "the bottom line"
|
| janfields |
And that means scandal
(and the memoir guy was writing tons of scandalous
stuff)
|
| janfields |
or in chick lit...it
means cute girls behaving badly...
|
| janfields |
and the Opal Mehta
author was perfect marketing material...
|
| janfields |
very
cute...bright...young...
|
| janfields |
She was going to make
good press which is why they bought a book from a young person who
hadn't actualy written it yet.
|
| janfields |
And then she got
bucketloads of money and some very tight
deadlines...
|
| janfields |
which was probably hard
to meet...she was in college after all.
|
| janfields |
So...editors didn't get
so long.
|
| janfields |
But, in her case, on of
the editors on the project...one of the editors THANKED in the
acknowledgements...
|
| janfields |
was actually the editor
of the book where most of the passages came from...
|
| janfields |
So really...it should
have been caught.
|
| janfields |
I hope publishers are
going to start learning something about product
mentality...
|
| janfields |
vs. the literary
mentality...product is not helping the business.
|
| janfields |
Ok, some one wanted to
ask about professionalism from the other side...how do we deal with
editors...
|
| janfields |
ABCDEmommy: I am an ICL
student and have a How-to that is being considered for
publication!!! =) The editor has had the article for more than two
months. I send a brief reminder every month. How can I stay in
contact with my editor and still be professional? How long should I
allow this to continue?
|
| janfields |
First, it sounds like
ABCDEmommy had gotten an acknowledgement...
|
| janfields |
and then found a two
month wait a little painful...
|
| janfields |
one painful, painful
truth is that publishing works in reverse dog
years.
|
| janfields |
If an editor says,
'I'll get back to you next week" -- she probably means, by the end
of the month.
|
| janfields |
If she says, "I'll get
back to you tomorrow" -- she probably means by the end of the
week.
|
| janfields |
And if she says,
"Within the month" -- you have a good shot of hearing before the end
of the season.
|
| janfields |
Nothing is
fast.
|
| janfields |
And two months isn't
long...even if you were told you would hear back in a week or
so.
|
| janfields |
If you weren't told
that...two months is really short.
|
| janfields |
So...take the amount of
time you were told.
|
| janfields |
Add AT LEAST half
again...and don't do anything until that time is
up.
|
| janfields |
And then one question,
and wait again.
|
| janfields |
Yes, I wish we could
make editors act faster but the only way to do that would be to make
publishers hire more editors.do that
|
| aurora1 |
I was accepted in August
and published in December I thought
|
| aurora1 |
that was
quick
|
| janfields |
For a magazine, that's
really quick.
|
| janfields |
Some make you wait
years...multiple years.
|
| chippy |
So proffesionalism =
patience?
|
| janfields |
Being patient is a sign
of a professional...so is really researching to find out what
kinds
|
| janfields |
of response times that
market really is sending out.
|
| janfields |
One excellent source on
response times for different markets...
|
| janfields |
is the message board at
http://www.verlakay.com
|
| janfields |
Folks post their
response times for all kinds of magazines
|
| janfields |
and book
editors
|
| janfields |
and
agents.
|
| janfields |
From that, you can
REALLY REALLY get a feeling for how long is too
long.
|
| janfields |
And when something
probably has gone wrong vs. the "reverse dog years" thing that is
really normal business at publishers.
|
| janfields |
Once you see something
that happened really too long.
|
| janfields |
And you write and get
no response...again, waiting a resonable time.
|
| janfields |
The only option is to
send a note withdrawing the submission...
|
| janfields |
and begin sending it
somewhere else.
|
| cheryls |
If you read a descriptive
phrase or metaphor in a poem or
|
| cheryls |
story, can you use it or
adapt it in a fiction piece or is
|
| cheryls |
this
plagiarism?
|
| janfields |
If you USE the metaphor
in the final work, you'll need permission.
|
| janfields |
Because even a single
metaphor is a big part of a poem...they're just so
short.
|
| janfields |
You're going to push
fair use very fast.
|
| janfields |
But if you DON'T
actually use it...or if you attribute it somehow (and leave the
permission to the editor)
|
| janfields |
you can use
it.
|
| janfields |
A metaphor might
inspire you to write a whole story...but not appear in the story,
nothing wrong with tha.t
|
| janfields |
Inspiration isn't the
same as plagiarism.
|
| janfields |
GONEWEST: Will Nature
Friend buy from a writer who doesn't fill out the Church stuff and
beliefs stuff?
|
| janfields |
No, I'm pretty sure
they don't.
|
| janfields |
That's intrusive
...yes. But you don't have to fill it out...you don't have to sell
to them.
|
| janfields |
They want to buy from
folks that they feel...share certain things.
|
| janfields |
And would understand
their audience best...
|
| janfields |
Plus, really, they
don't pay so well and they take forever to answer...and they buy so
little freelance.
|
| janfields |
If the questionairre
makes you uncomfortable...they're not that hard of a market to pass
on.
|
| janfields |
These days they are
using a LOT of reader generated content (meaning
FREE)
|
| delima-e |
writers have deadlines
and editors don't doesn't make sense
|
| janfields |
Oh Editors
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO have deadlines.
|
| janfields |
They have incredible
deadlines with their bosses.
|
| janfields |
But you are a content
provider, so when they have to choose between meeting the demands of
the boss...
|
| janfields |
and meeting the demands
of the content provider (keeping in mind that hundtreds of folks are
desperate to provide content for them)...
|
| janfields |
they have to choose the
boss every time.
|
| janfields |
Really, editors would
LIKE to meet the posted response times...
|
| janfields |
And if the publishers
would hire an adequate number of editors for the amount of work,
they would.
|
| janfields |
They're actually being
"done to" as much as we are.
|
| janfields |
Now...we're over the 3
pm mark.
|
| janfields |
Wow...that went kind of
fast for me today.
|
| janfields |
Thanks,
y'all.
|
| janfields |
Don't Forget...this
Friday Night -- we're talking
Tweens.
|
