| janfields | Join us tonight in the AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for an open forum chat on the topic of poetry. Chat begins in five minutes.
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| janfields | Tonight's open forum chat about poetry, will begin shortly. While you wait for chat to begin, feel free to use your ASK A QUESTION button RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to post some questions on writing poetry, selling poetry, and any other poetic area. Chat will begin two minutes from now.
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| janfields | Hi, and welcome to open forum. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and tonight we're here to chat about poetry. I've sold poetry to magazines and had it printed in some of the storybooks I did for a small toy company. If you want to ask a question about poetry and be sure I get a chance to see it...you'll need to use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle of your screen. OR type a backslash / followed immediately by the word ask...then space once and type your question. That passes the question to me and I can post it and give my best shot at an answer. Now, let's get going.
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| janfields | Tonight's topic on poetry is one I've had a lot of fun with...
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| janfields | My poetry is extremely LIGHT verse...
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| janfields | but I've sold poetry to educational magazines like Lollipops (not defunct, sorry)
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| janfields | To Holidays and Seasonal Celebrations (now defunct ...sorry)
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| janfields | To Shining Star (now defunct...I'm starting to spot a trend)
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| janfields | And I've sold poetry for use in Children's Church Curricula...
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| janfields | And poetry to more recognizable magazines like Ladybug and Highlights.
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| janfields | I've also talked to a lot of editors about poetry.
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| janfields | So, I'm hoping to be able to handle most of the questions anyone might have.
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| janfields | BUT FIRST....
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| janfields | we have to do...GOOD NEWS>
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| janfields | And I understand Dragonlady won a poetry contest?
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| janfields | Can you Puhleaseeeee tell us about it (you can say it in there and I can pass it on)
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| jolie | Congrats, Dragonlady!
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| janfields | Yes, a touching ode to the rat who moved on to the big cheese in the sky on the dear lady's compost bin on New Year's Day.
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| janfields | Ah..."Ode to a Brown Rat" to PoemJuice...just wanted to repeat for the transcript.
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| janfields | Congratulations...very cool. And who says you can't make good use of a dead rat?
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| janfields | Very cool.
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| janfields | Now, next up to the good news bar...
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| janfields | GOOD NEWS:
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| Course in March of this year. I took the bull by the horns, so to speak, and submitted a story based on the lesson two assignment. Partners accepted it for the September issue and the check arrived this weekend. yippee skippee |
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| janfields | Wow...how often does someone sell their LESSON TWO idea...great!
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| janfields | GOOD NEWS -- Joseph "Silly" Sottile: The Dabbling Mum has published "You can Write Lightning Verse!
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| janfields | A timely bit of good news considering tonight's topic.
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| janfields | GOOD NEWS -- RONNI: Boys’ Quest magazine bought my article “Cache Me If You Can!”, an article about geocaching, for their future issue about hobbies. The course definitely guided me to this sale – I bought several sample copies of the magazine, studied their publishing style, and wrote and tightened. Thank you!
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| janfields | Good news all around...I just love happy news.
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| janfields | Okay...now tome to talk poetry.
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| janfields | time...not tome
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| dragonlady | on average, what can a writer hope to earn selling a poem?
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| janfields | I've made up to for a poem.
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| janfields | And I once sold a collection of little poems to a toy company who made them into a book
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| janfields | that sold with a doll
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| janfields | That paid
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| janfields | And I sort of wrote them in two days...not great poetry, mostly silly.
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| janfields | But the most common rate I've seen for poetry...
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| janfields | is much more in the to area.
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| janfields | And lots of markets don't pay for their poetry at all.
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| coloradokate | What length are magazines looking for?
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| janfields | Most magazines want poems of 20 lines or less.
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| janfields | They really like less.
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| janfields | BUT...
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| janfields | A few magazines like story poems...
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| janfields | which can run several pages and many lines.
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| janfields | Hopscotch, Boy's Quest, and Fun for Kids will actually buy a story poem over a prose story.
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| janfields | The editor LOVES them.
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| janfields | I have also seen story poems in Highlights and Cricket...
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| janfields | though both of those are more rare and the story poem as to be very good verse.
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| dragonlady | because I won the poetry contest, can I sell the poem elsewhere? (it doesn't appear on their website)
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| janfields | Winning a contest doesn't tie up any of your rights (as long as the poem itself wasn't published)
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| janfields | And mentioning that the poem won a prize does catch the eye of the editor.
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| janfields | Overall, editors buy poems because they fit as much as because they're terrific.
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| janfields | That's one reason why one of the very easiest poems to sell is the seasonal poem.
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| janfields | Editors actually look for them, buy them ahead, and fit them in where they need them.
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| jolie | Let's talk meter and rhyme.!?
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| janfields | Meter is the rhythm of the poem.
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| janfields | Editors love good meter...meter that is even
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| janfields | Meter where the author set the meter and then stuck to it.
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| janfields | Many newer writers simply cannot write even meter.
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| janfields | And that is THE number one reason for poetry to be turned down...uneven meter.
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| janfields | Rhyme, on the other hand, seems to come much more naturally.
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| janfields | Golden asks What is Meter
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| janfields | Meter is the pattern of stressed and unstressed syllables in words...and thus in the sentences made up of the words.
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| janfields | ME-ter for example is made up of one stressed syllable followed by one unstressed.
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| janfields | FA-ther is another example of a stressed followed by an unstressed.
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| janfields | You can use a dictionary to find the pattern of stressed and unstressed in any multi-syllabic word.
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| janfields | But many poems use a lot of single syllable words too.
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| janfields | And it can be harder to see where the stresses hit in that case.
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| janfields | You nearly never hear anyone stress tiny words like "the" or "an"
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| janfields | Or prepositions like "in" or "out"
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| janfields | But we do tend to stress action words
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| janfields | So a sentence with the word "run" or "jump" will tend to stress that action word.
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| janfields | We also stress proper names...and "I"
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| janfields | So in this sentence: I have seen a man in black.
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| janfields | The natural stresses fall on "I" "seen" "man" and "black" but the stress on "black" is really only set by the rhythm of th previous words.
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| janfields | Right, angela, "seen" would be stressed as the main verb.
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| janfields | It can be very tricky to "scan" poetry and determine the stresses if you don't have an ear for it.
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| janfields | That's why my poetry is usually about 5 lines long :-)
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| janfields | Some people have a very good natural ear for poetry and can hit perfect meter and never vary for lines and lines of verse story.
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| dragonlady | how difficult is it to break into the literary poetry market
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| janfields | It's actually not very difficult...I actually sold a poem years ago to a literary magazine.
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| janfields | And it was angsty and really quite dreadful.
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| janfields | Like most magazines, literary magazines develop a certain tone and flavor...
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| janfields | and will be much more receptive to poetry of the sort they "like"
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| janfields | But there are quite a lot of literary magazines -- especially when you include the ones connected to colleges.
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| janfields | And so there's a pretty big market.
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| janfields | The pay for literary poetry is quite low, but if you build a following...
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| janfields | You can sometimes squeak into an anthology.
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| janfields | Golden, literary magazines?
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| janfields | I'm actually not really familiar with poetry outside the children's market...
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| janfields | Because that's where I've sold poetry in the past...oh...twenty years.
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| janfields | And the one literary magazine where I sold a piece...is defunct...but I totally don't think it was MY poetry that killed all these magazines.
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| janfields | awwww...that's sweet, golden...you wouldn't think it if you saw my grey grey hair.
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| amyjo079 | how do I tell if my poetry is publishing material?
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| janfields | One way to find out if you meter works...which is half the battle...
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| janfields | is to have someone READ it to you.
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| janfields | Preferably someone who isn't a great reader
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| janfields | Or do a google search to find one of those online talking 'bot things where you type in your poem and it reads it.
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| janfields | Because if your meter has any issues, you'll hear them that way.
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| janfields | But you won't hear them if you read it aloud because -- as writers -- we cheat when we read
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| janfields | And shift the stresses to make them work.
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| janfields | Assuming your meter works...then it's mostly whether you have a good theme
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| janfields | Some kind of visual...editors like visual poetry.
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| janfields | Mostly because it's easy to illustrate.
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| janfields | The most popular poems to children's editors are seasonal, as I mentioned...
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| janfields | humorous
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| janfields | or nonfiction.
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| janfields | Oh, and some magazines REALLY REALLY like "manners" poems.
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| janfields | Where the theme of the poem is how to be a nice kid.
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| amyjo079 | Show a visual with your poem?
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| janfields | Yes, does your poem have images?
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| janfields | For example, I've sold two dandelion poems.
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| janfields | Dandelions looking like buttons on the green weskit of lawn.
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| janfields | Dandelions picked with their thick white manes...
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| janfields | Dandelions blown...scattering wishes.
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| janfields | That kind of thing...where you have action, visuals, and some kind of weird metaphors.
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| janfields | Angela, actually, I don't know if any of the ICL courses do poetry except as stories in verse.
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| janfields | Maybe we should petition for a good poetry course here...give us poetry, give us poetry
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| janfields | Sure, just type /ask and then type your question and it will come to me.
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| janfields | Then when I post it, it comes out in bold print.
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| jolie | stories in verse? more about that.
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| janfields | A story in verse will be a story...with a beginning, middle and end.
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| janfields | A plot
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| janfields | characters
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| janfields | But it also rhymes.
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| janfields | I saw one in Highlights where a girl was having a tea party with her cat.
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| janfields | And the story had some kind of number thing...maybe not enough seats or something.
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| janfields | Anyway...it had a problem, lots of visuals, and action...all the elements of story.
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| janfields | No...it's here in my sample magazine basket.
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| janfields | I'll look it up and try to remember to put it in the newsletter on Monday, okay?
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| janfields | It's available through the ICL website...look at the navigation for "Free Writer's News"
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| jolie | is it important that every line rhyme, or every other line
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| janfields | Rhyme schemes can be all over the place.
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| janfields | I've rhymed the first and fifth line with the second, third and fourth rhyming with each other.
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| janfields | I've rhymed in couplets...where every set of two rhyme.
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| janfields | As long as you don't let too many words get between your rhymes...so that kids can't hear them...you can play with all kinds of patterns.
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| janfields | All you have to do is create a pattern and then stick with it.
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| janfields | If you change for any reason, make the content of the poem suggest a needed change.
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| janfields | For example, I've seen poems that rhyme perfectly for line after line and then end with a non rhyming word like "BOOM" for surprise.
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| dragonlady | would something that has little endrhyme or none be better suited for older children?
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| janfields | You can sell poetry with little rhyme or none older kid magazines...
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| janfields | But usually you have to have meter
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| janfields | Otherwise, if you just have images, without specific meter or rhyme.
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| janfields | The magazine would prefer to use reader poetry...cause it's free.
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| janfields | Lots of teen magazines ONLY use reader poetry.
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| janfields | You have a free source of poetry, and they never complain about not getting paid.
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| janfields | Sometimes though, you can find poetry in unexpect places.
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| janfields | When I was younger...I sold poetry to weird places like newspapers and nonfiction magazines.
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| janfields | Usually poetry for places like that, though, is more clever witty than artistic.
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| dragonlady | what about form poetry - how accepted is that in the marketplace?
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| janfields | I've seen it some...not as much in recent years.
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| janfields | You actually seem smaller magazines much more willing to try form poetry.
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| janfields | Someone like Hopscotch would do it quicker than a magazine like Cricket.
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| janfields | But if your poem is powerful enough...I suspect a lot of magazines would go to the trouble.
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| janfields | Actually computers have done some damage to form poetry in magazines.
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| janfields | Because page designers have set ways of using software to set text on the page.
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| janfields | And they are way less willing to step outside the box.
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| janfields | Oh, Golden...how long have I been writing? I've been writing for publication since 1980
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| janfields | But I was stuck in newspapers for a couple of those years.
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| janfields | I dinna like that so much.
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| janfields | I've been writing for magazines since 1983.
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| jolie | Explain form poetry, please
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| janfields | I assume dragonlady meant shape poetry when she said "form poetry."
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| janfields | So if she meant something else, she might have to explain it.
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| janfields | But in a shape poem, the shape of the poem on the page
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| janfields | is part of the reading experience.
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| janfields | One famous shape poem was printed on the page to look like a long long tail.
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| janfields | And it was about... a tail.
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| janfields | I once sold a poem that looked like a computer flow chart...um, I was young and trying to prove I could sell anything.
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| janfields | Someone should have slapped me.
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| janfields | Um, yeah, I did sell it.
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| janfields | It wasn't exactly a high-end magazine.
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| janfields | Wonder: Can you submit more than one poem at a time?
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| janfields | Most magazine editors say you can submit up to 5 poems at a time.
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| janfields | The problem lies in the fact that they are likely to only buy one.
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| janfields | So you're competing with yourself for one slot
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| janfields | And tying up the poems in the submission process until you get your acceptance and find out which one they wanted.
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| janfields | So 'I" only send out one at a time.
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| janfields | I also sometimes "supplement" a poem with a craft that uses the poem.
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| janfields | Such as a snowflake craft I once did to go with a touching poem about how snowflakes are all different
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| janfields | but wonderful...just as people are all different but wonderful.
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| janfields | Really...I'll sell anything.
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| janfields | I also did a poem on sheep for a religious magazine...that had a "banner" craft with it.
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| janfields | So kiddies could make the banner, put my poem on it, and display it forever.
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| janfields | no big ego here...nope
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| janfields | It's darn hard to write a poem on a shepherd's crook.
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| janfields | I have also done "riddle" poems where the last line solves the riddle but the child needs to solve a puzzle to figure out the line.
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| janfields | And I turned a somewhat flaccid dandelion poem into a action rhyme for Highlights by suggesting movements a child might do while reciting it.
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| janfields | Oh, like you want me to remember it?
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| janfields | Okay...that was a few years ago...the riddle was about a flower who wanted to ride a bike.
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| janfields | And couldn't...
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| janfields | She tried and tried.
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| janfields | But finally
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| janfields | And then the last line was scrambled up but when the child unscrambled the word order, they found out it was because she didn't have any petals.
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| janfields | I don't actually remember how I worded it to make it rhyme.
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| janfields | But it did rhyme...at the time.
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| janfields | Poetry with puns are actually very popular.
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| janfields | Totally silly poetry can be a little harder to sell...
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| janfields | I have a silly piece about a kid in monkey school that gets cheery little rejections
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| janfields | about how fun it is...but...NO
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| janfields | Of course, the meter might be off...I'm not gifted with meter.
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| janfields | And I have a silly piece about animals that move to town...
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| janfields | and people scorn them...they find it embarrassing to entertain dinner guest who have udders.
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| janfields | It's a whole story in verse with a touching theme about accepting others
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| janfields | But although it's funny...it hasn't sold.
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| janfields | But Linda Sue Park read it for me and told me my meter stinks in that one.
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| janfields | Which certainly solved that mystery.
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| jolie | Who can figure what sells? I had fun tonight, thanks!
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| janfields | I had fun tonight to y'all.
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| janfields | Really, dragonlady, I can rhyme all day but my meter is horrifying.
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| janfields | Anyway, thanks for chatting...we'll be back on our normal schedule next week.
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| janfields | Tuesday chat will be on CONFERENCES...since I'm doing a conference next weekend, I wanted to chat about it.
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| janfields | And Thursday night guest chat will be with Becky Ances of Moo Cow Fan Club.
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