Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Pam Zollman, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Pam.

Jan: Hi, and welcome to tonight's special event -- a chat with guest speaker, Pam Zollman. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and tonight we're going to learn more about educational publishers -- what you can write for them, how you can write for them, and why you might want to. I'm so happy to chat with Pam Zollman tonight because she is one of my favorite writer friends -- plus she wrote one of my favorite humorous middle grade novels: Don't Bug Me!. If you have a question you wish to ask, you'll need to use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and type your question. That passes the question to me and I can post it for Pam so that she can answer it for you and in the transcript. Now, let's get going.

Jan: So...welcome Pam. I'm so excited to have you here.

Pam: I'm excited to be here.

Jan: Hey, folks...Pam and I are secretly sisters under the skin...we both love being the center of attention. And can pointificate til the cows come home.

Pam: That's so true.

Jan: Okay, the questions are pouring in so let's go...

Pam: I first started about 7 years ago when I found out that Quarasan Educational Development Group was looking for writers. I sent them my resume and samples of my writing. They wanted to see what "level" I wrote on. They had a project that needed 3rd grade reading level and I had written some stories at that level, so they hired me to write. And I've been writing off and on for them ever since. I've done similar things with other publishers. Quarasan is not a publisher, but a "middle man" -- coordinating the project and the writers for a publisher.

Jan: So is the "resume and samples" the usual first contact with educational publishers and their middle me?

Pam: For me it has been. If you are a member of SCBWI, you can get a list of educational publishers but it's not a complete list. I've found work through friends, as well as NFforKids yahoo group when it was posted that a publisher was looking for writers.

Jan: OK, you've answered the first half of this question but the secon half is new...

Pam: It depends on what you're writing. Sometimes you're writing for children and sometimes you're writing for teachers. I've done teacher guides, for example, that are strictly for teachers. But most of what I've done is written for kids to be used in the classroom. So what I write for the educational market isn't really that different from what I write for the trade market. The major difference might be in what's taboo. Some publishers state on their websites what they're looking for. Some want proposals, some only want resumes and give out assignments. Most of what I've done has been through assignments. And I like that because I know that what I write will be used and paid for.

Jan: Taboo? Sounds ominous...so what kinds of things are taboo?

Pam: Ahhh -- I knew you'd ask me that! LOL!

Pam: Magazines have taboos also, but I think educational is a little more strict because it goes into the classroom. Things like witches are usually taboo in magazines and educational. But they usually give you their own personal lists. Sometimes it has to do with word choices...like whether you refer to Native Americans as that or as Indians. Violence is usually out...name calling. The good thing, though, is that they let you know before you even start writing what their own taboos are.

Pam: It can do both. I'm a full-time freelancer, and all my income comes strictly from writing. While I do get income from speaking at conferences and schools, writing is my bread and butter. And writing educational materials is right now a huge part of that bread and butter. One reason I like to write for educational publishers is because I think they pay well and fast. Well, especially compared to magazines and books. I usually get paid 30-45 days after I turn in an assignment. And with magazines, you sometimes don't get paid until publication...which could be months to years after you've sold the article/short story. And books -- well, you know how long it takes for them to even read your story.

Pam: With some publishers that could be a plus -- depends on how they're set up. You would have to do some market research to see if they even accept picture books, for example. And then see if they accept art. Not all do. For example, I wrote math readers for Pearson, and they "illustrated" them with DK photos. So, I think you should check out web sites and catalogues, and query. Good luck with that project! It sounds really interesting! Plus, you might even interest trade publishers as well.

Pam: Well, they always seem to want teachers, so it looks good if you've had any type of teaching experience. I have not taught, but they took me anyway. I think that you should send them samples of stories/articles/poems at the grade level where you feel most comfortable writing. If you feel comfortable writing at various reading levels, then send samples of all to show them that you're versatile. Also, if you're comfortable only with fiction, let them know that. But I think that if you also can write nonfiction, you'll get more assignments. They basically want to know if you can write and meet deadlines, and at what levels do you write, and what do you write.

Pam: Of course, it helps if you've been published, but if you write well enough, that's what matters. And it's a good way to get writing clips. If your writing sample isn't published, then you should also probably add what reading level it is to show them you're aware of that. To get the reading level of a story or article, go to spell check and add the grammar check option. Ignore everything that Grammar Check says because it's always wrong. LOL! But at the end of Grammar Check a gray screen (on Word) will pop up and will give you all kinds of info like # of words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. And it will give you a reading level (Fleisch-Kincaid). Not all companies use the same way to get reading levels, but don't worry about that.

Pam: A "clip" used to be your published story "clipped" out of the magazine or newspaper. Also called a "tear sheet."Now no one "clips" or "tears" any more. But some of us "oldies" still call it that. These are simply your published writings.

Pam: Exactly! And I make color copies (you don't have to!) because I think it looks better than black-and-white. Sometimes they want you to mail them; sometimes they want you to fax them -- depends on how fast they need you! I've mailed and faxed. But lately, I've emailed the text of my books to publishers instead of copying it. I've warned them that it's not exactly like what was printed, but they don't seem to care. They're interested in how and what I write and what reading levels, etc.

Pam: I'm not sure I can answer this question. That's because when I first wrote for Scholastic, it was through Quarasan. I did questions and answers for a program they were developing that is similar to Accelerated Reading, but using their own novels. Most of the work I've done with them is through other people. However, I wrote my lifecycle series and geography books (Rookie Readers) for an editor I met at a writers conference. I gave her my resume and she contacted me a few months later asking me to write for her.

Jan: Oh, I love the Rookie Readers.

Pam: I'm not sure about the future of their Rookie Reader program at this moment. They're having a huge internal shake-up and my editor isn't even there anymore. I don't think they'll do away with them, but I think they'll look at how many they do and how they do them in a different way than in the past. I too love Rookie Readers. They're so much fun to write! I think for Scholastic that you'd have to query them and find out what they're looking for. I dont' think I have a very good answer about Scholastic at this time. Sorry.

Pam: Hmmmm. That's tough without knowing specifics. But I'd say you'd have to change it significantly in order to call it yours, in the publishing world. It's one thing to use "stolen" material that is adapted for classroom use and another to submit it to publishers and call it your own. I'd be very careful with this. If it turned out that they thought you were plagerizing, then you might lose your reputation in the publish world and you wouldn't want that. Instead, I'm sure you are creative enough to come up with even better ideas of your own! Besides, wouldn't it be embarrassing if it turned out that the pub you were subbing to was the original publisher?

Pam: Instead of emphasizing the fact that you're "pre-published," emphasize that you've been a teacher for 21 years. That should overcome the lack of publishing credits. I've worked for Quarasan and Cebulash -- developmental groups; as well as a variety of publishers, such as Harcourt, Steck-Vaughn, Rigby, Scholastic, Pearson, Enslow, Options, and TIME (you didn't know they were educational, did you?). Oh yes -- Publishing Solutions Group. And sometimes they ask me to recommend other writers, published or unpublished. So I know they're open to new writers -- probably just depends on the project. I wrote the outline for a writing handbook for TIME. TIME for Kids -- for high schoolers. And I wrote the essay section of it. I'm not sure when it is supposed to come out -- I think this fall.

Pam: We probably ought to talk about rights, too.

Jan: Always open...tell us about rights...a lot of it's work for hire?

Pam: Some pay you outright for your work (work-for-hire) and some pay royalties. Depends on the job. Most is probably work-for-hire, especially when you're doing things like editing or writing test passages.or teacher guides.But, depending on the publisher, you can also get royalties on books. If you have a problem with selling all your rights, then you probably ought to only write for those that pay royalties. Most of the work, though, is short...more like short stories and articles...and is paid for as a work-for-hire project. You do get paid more than you would if you submitted the same story or article to a magazine.

Pam: LOL! Sometimes that same day! Totally depends. Which is a sappy answer. But it depends on the project. When I do state tests, my deadlines are usually just a few days after the assignment. When I was working on the Scholastic project, we had longer deadlines because we had to read the novels. If you're just writing q&a, and not reading passages which might take research, then the deadlines are usually pretty quick.

Pam: You can do that if you want to. I usually write whatever they want. If they're looking for test questions, I'm their girl. If they're looking for phonics, then I'm their girl. LOL! In fact, I'd never done phoenics before and told them so -- this was with Cebulash -- and they said, "Don't worry. You can learn. We'll send you lots of information." And they did. And I wrote 5 stories for Harcourt's Collections series. I was nervous at first, but then I actually enjoyed writing those stories. I had to write one each week. Each story had to emphasize a certain phonics skill. But, if you feel more confident writing tests, then you ought to do that.

Pam: Nope. I'm not an expect on anything -- I'm a jack-of-all-trades, I think. I'd never done teacher guides before, but I did a number of them for Harcourt through Quarasan last fall. The publisher and/or educational development company gives you tons and tons of information on what they want. Plus you can always talk to the editors to make sure you're doing it right. I'd also never edited graphic novels before, but I did five of them last year. Actually, I don't think I'd ever even *read* a graphic novel before! Well, I loved comic books as a kid and devoured them...and graphic novels are very similar.

Pam: Shakeup times are usually not a good time to sub. Usually it's best to wait until the dust settles a bit. But perhaps now it has settled. It's been at least six months, I think. Never hurts to ask. All they can do is say "no," right? And we writers are used to that word (unfortunately).

Pam: Sure! Of course, the newsletter is probably for adults. So I'd write some things for kids and sub that as well to show them that you can write for kids.

Pam: Sometimes the series are in-house and assigned. Sometimes they're interested in adding to series and are interested in your ideas. For example, Enslow and Scholastic have lots of series, but they're not all open to "new" ideas. They know what books they want in that series. For example, Rookie Readers nonfiction tends to be assigned, but fiction doesn't. Enslow usually assigns books in a series that they develop in house, but they've also been known to accept proposals for new series or new books within a series from writers. I think it's easier to propose new books and/or series if you've been working with them, though.

Pam: My motto is "Take the 'free' out of 'freelance.'" So, while I do like royalities, I also like those checks that come every few weeks to pay my bills. Royality checks only come twice a year, and I don't always know how much they'll be. I do both. I guess I'm not picky. I write lots and lots and lots! I think it's really an individual thing, as far as choosing between work-for-hire and royaltiy. If it's a big book, like I do for Enslow, I prefer to get royalties. But smaller books, like those I did for Pearson, I don't mind selling them as work-for-hire. The Pearson math readers were very, very short! Like 8 pages for first grade and 16 pages for 2nd grade.

Pam: Well, the math readers paid around $1500 and weren't any longer than a magazine piece...and there aren't that many children's magazines out there that pay that much. Depends on the publisher. I did some math readers about the same length for a different publisher and they paid about half that. Which is still not bad, since they were very fast to write. And test questions also depend on the publishers. If you're doing state tests directly for the state or if you're doing them for Princeton Review -- pay will be different (PR paid me better). Usually you're paid better if you write directly for the publisher and not for the development group (since they're the middle-men and take a chucnk for themselves.). However, I don't mind working for people like Quarasan, because that's often a way for publishers to discover me. I wrote a "Pair It" chapter book for Quarasan that was for Steck-Vaughn. The editor liked it so much that she contacted me directly to write more of them, as well as edit them.

Pam: Wow! My answers are so wishy-washy! It all depends! Sometimes I'm paid by the word, sometimes by the project. Sometimes it depends on how much research I have to do for the project. Each project and publisher is different and so is the pay. I guess it's just like each children's magazine is different, both is content and slant, and so is the pay. Same for trade publishers. I had someone ask me if I made a comfortable living as a children's writer...and I said, "Depends on what you mean by 'comfortable.'" I don't make as much JK Rowling. Sigh! LOL!

Pam: Hmmm. Good question! Check out what supplemental material is used in the classroom and who is publishing it. Also, if you can, attend things like library conferences and reading conferences. In Texas, I used to always go to the TLA (Texas Library Association) each year. I'd find lots of catalogues from both trade and library/educational publishers. Plus go to their web sites and see if they have a catalogue online...check out their writing guidelines if they have any. Be brave and call them.

Pam: Just like trade publishers, it depends on each individual publisher and what they want. Some want queries only. I think you ought to query first, since the editor might want you to shape it differently to fit their needs and that way you wouldn't "waste" time and energy on a project that didn't quite fit. But if a publisher doens't mind seeing the whole manuscript, then go ahead and sub it. Just be sure to check their requirements first. Some don't mind if you multiple-submit, as long as you tell them you're doing that. And some don't want teacher material, but only material for kids. Just depends on the particular publisher. Jan -- I don't have the CWIM or the ICL market guide in front of me -- do they list educational publishers separately?

Jan: Let me look...no pressure here. No, neither guide separates them out. But both list LOTS of educational publishers. CWIM signifies them with a little picture icon. And Book Markets for Children's Writers has a list in the index. You can get a Children's Writers & Illustrators's Market at most book stories and the ICL Book Markets for Children's Writers online at the store for this site.

Pam: Both are excellent, by the way! Read the marketing books with a highlighter in hand. And it's a good think the read each listing closely. Each publisher tends to be very strict about what they want and how they want it submitted. And when you do get an assignment or sell a proposal to a publisher, they will give you specific guidelines and you have to follow them exactly. Which means meeting the deadlines, writing to the grade level, writing no more than the max word limit allowed.

Pam: It might. The editor might not view you as "dependable." But that also may just be my view of things. Personally I've only turned down one assignment -- and that was after I'd been doing so many test questions that I was going crazy! So I turned down a test writing assignment. But they contacted me again a couple of months later about the same project and I'd had enough of a vacation so I accepted it then. However, if it's a subject that is something that perhaps offends you or you have a good reason for turning down, then I think they'd understand. I'm only telling you right now what I think and this may not be actually true. They may not mind. Often they give you a list of topics and let you choose.

Pam: No. The reader is about a topic, fiction or nonfiction, that's math in nature. For example, if you're writing about fractions, you might write a fictional story about two girls going to a fair and buying tickets. Okay -- I wrote that. One girl didn't know fractions as well as the other, so she chose to take a smaller number of tickets. I've forgotten already what the fractions were...but at the end they share a pizza, and she's figured out fractions so she doens't get cheated. LOL! I've written about recycling and dinosaurs and books and parties -- some fiction and some nonfiction -- and in each book a particular math function is emphasized. But there is a story first. With one set of math readers that I wrote, there was a workbook that went with it...and that was more like a math text book. It was for elementary-aged kids.

Pam: That I don't know. I haven't written for them, so I don't know the answer. You probaly could find out by contacting them directly.

Pam: Have you tried Richard C. Owen? They seem to do lots of short books like she's talking about. But she needs to check them out for herself to see if what she wrote fits. I think it's harder to sell something that's already written to the educational market. Especially nonfiction. She might try selling it as a magazine article if she can't find an educational publisher.

Pam: When I research for anyone, I always do a bibliography. Some educational publishers require that you give them two sources for each fact thta you use in your article. I often start with the internet. But I use websites that are from museums, universities, professional organizations, governemental sites, etc. I also make good friends my with librarian and she helps me find books. This is especially important since I live in a tiny town (less than 4000) and our library is small. I have to drive to Scranton (an hour away) to go to a bigger library. Univeristy libraries are good too. I also call people considered to be experts in whatever field I'm reseraching. I get their names from universities, for example. I go to that department and find a professor who is willing to talk to me. Most are! They love to talk about their field of study. If you're researching an animal, you can talk to a zoo, for example...or a breeder...experts are everywhere. And depending on the publisher, I often send copies of my research to them. I highlight or circle the facts that I used.

Pam: I don't have an educational background, so I would say that they may prefer that, but they'll use anyone who can write what they need. And I think it's easier to query first before writing any nonfiction, especially for educational publishers. That way you can shape your piece to fit what they need without having to complete rewrite it.

Pam: Good question! I don't think so. Actually with all of the unauthorized biographies out there, apparently you don't have to have permission to write about live people! I would say that the answer is no. I've never asked permission to write about anyone. I've written about dead presidents and live ones. Dead celebrities and live ones.

Pam: Well, first, do your reserch so that you have at least a working knowledge about your subject. For example, when I wrote about making maple syrup, I read a lot about it first and talked to friends here in PA where I now live who actually make syrup. Then I emailed a professor at a college in Vermont who actually lectures on this subject! I asked him if I could talk to him and set up an interview. He said yes and we talked a long time...and I discovered that even though people say "sap's rising" that's incorrect. Sap doens't rise. And that information led to a sidebar. Have a list of questions that you want to ask the expert in hand before you call or talk to him/her in person. That way, you won't take up too much of his time (even though they usually LOVE to talk to you) and you'll be sure to get all your questions asked.

Pam: A sidebar is used in books and magazines to explain some part of the article in more detail. They usually aren't very long -- 50 to maybe 100 or 150 words. It's usually separated from the main text by a box or lines or someother graphical device.

Pam: Really? I'm not sure what they mean by that.You know, I think I'd just call Dennis LIght who is the editor in charge (can't remember his exact title) and ask him directly. Or email him.Dennis is who usually assigns me work. Ask him what they mean by "rate" --per hour or per project or what. I usually ask what they pay everyone else when they ask me that question. I usually always say a figure that is too low, so I learned to ask what they're paying everyone else.

Pam: Well, I usually use the Microsoft Word function since I use Word, if they don't specify a specific way to determine the reading level. It's usally fairly close. Some publishers will give you their own formula which involves adding and multiplying...to get the reading level. Also, tricks to get your reading level to the one specified To bring down your reading level, use words with fewer syllables. Use shorter sentences (fewer words per sentence). Use simplier sentences (but not "choppy"). Use shorter paragraphs (fewer sentences per paragraph). Do the opposite to bring up the reading level: use longer words and sentences. Use larger words and more complex sentences. Make your paragraphs longer too.

Pam: Sometimes I do. Especially when I interview someone in person -- I get to talking and forget to take notes! LOL! I have taped phone interviews, but I'm mechanically inept and have trouble doing that. So I take copious notes.

Jan: Well, that brings us to the end of the chat period...you did fantastic...I knew you would.

Pam: I really enjoyed it! I hope lots of people get writing jobs in the educational field.