"Writing in Many Genres: Chapter Books to Middle-Grade Books to YA Novels” with Cheryl Zach

                                   Thursday, June 17, 2004

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Cheryl Zach and web editor of the ICL site.

Cheryl is Cheryl Zach, who has published 33 books for children and young readers, and has more scheduled for publication.  Cheryl’s Benny and the No-Good Teacher (Simon & Schuster, 1992) was a nominee for the South Carolina Children’s Book Award, and The Class Trip (Simon & Schuster, 1988) was an International Reading Association/Children’s Book Council Children’s Choice book.  Cheryl Zach is the first young adult writer to be inducted into the Romance Writers of America's Hall of Fame for winning three of their Rita awards, the most recent for Runaway (Berkeley, 1996).  Her young adult historical novel, Hearts Divided (Bantam, 1996), won the 1996 Virginia Romance Writers' Holt Medallion.  Another of her young adult historical novels is Carrie's Gold (Avon American Dreams, 1997).

Green shows the user names of the people who are asking questions of Cheryl.

 

Mel: Ever since I began as ICL web editor, and read the transcript of Cheryl Zach's previous visit to our Guest Chat on September 5, 2002, when she chatted about "Working with Editors," I have been wanting to have her back to chat. Several of you have asked for a guest who had some knowledge of chapter books; Cheryl

Zach does. Others of you have asked for guests who "knew their stuff" about middle-grade novels; Cheryl Zach does. Still others have requested a chat guest who knows about writing Young Adult Novels; Cheryl Zach does. Cheryl, thank you so much for returning to our ICL Chat Room tonight-a WARM welcome to you!

Cheryl: Thanks, Mel, it's always a pleasure to be here.

Mel: Cheryl, how old were you when you started writing?

Cheryl: I've been writing ever since I could hold a pencil. I remember a poem I wrote at six and a short story at twelve, a school play in high school, and so on. I wrote for the school paper at all levels, later worked for a small local paper. Even though it was nonfiction, but often feature stories so more interesting re choices, it was very good practice for me and I recommend it. Any writing you do feeds your passion and polishes your skills.

Mel: How old were you when you started writing with the intent to publish?

Cheryl: I tried sending out some short stories while I was in college, made all the beginner mistakes, I promise, including no SASE. No luck at all. Later, I tried a novel, spent two years researching and writing (it was a historical) and it was rejected by most known publishers in the western world. :) Not funny at the time. When I moved to the West Coast because of my husband's job, I started going to classes, conferences, writing groups and I learned a lot. Didn't know about ICL then, sadly, or I could probably have cut some time off my long apprenticeship.

Mel: By the way, did you grow up in a reading family?

Cheryl: My mother was always reading, and she inspired me. My dad read the newspaper and technical manuals, but he drove me to the library every week, where I always promised I'd 'be fast' and I never was. And that's a very loving memory now he's gone. He never once scolded or told me to hurry up. So they both nourished my love of reading and writing, and were very proud when I sold the first book.

remus: Hello Cheryl. It is wonderful that you made it to the chat today. I'm Marc, your former student. I just wanted to congratulate you on the publication of "Beauty in Black." I saw that it just came out. I can't wait until it gets here.

Cheryl: Oh, Marc, lovely to hear from you. I hope you're writing as well as illustrating!

remus: I was wondering if you use agents and if you do, can you tell me if an agent prefers representing authors of chapter or non-chapter books.

Cheryl: I'm on my third agent--which tells you something right there. It's hard to find a good agent for children's writers because writers have to make enough to make it worth the agent's while. But it's becoming more common. I would advise getting references if you can before you approach an agent, talk to someone who has worked with him or her. In my time as a writer, I've seen scam artists pose as agents, so you must be careful. Never give an agent money up front. If he or she is legit, they won't ask for any.

Mel: You probably get asked this if you do author talks. Cheryl: Did you enjoy school as a child?

Cheryl: No! Funny, in a way, I was a very shy kid. Did okay with grades, but the social part was hard and I moved a lot, an army brat, so even though I learned to make new friends, it was always hard. I still value the friends I make, and writers need other writing friends, who understand what we go through.

Mel: Sounds VERY familiar! Tell us about your classroom teaching. It was in high school, wasn't it?

Cheryl: Yes, high school English, lots of contact with teens, which helped me later.

Mel: How do you think being a teacher affected your writing?

Cheryl: It gave me the chance to get to know kids at different ages, see what interested them and what they read for fun. And what they did not enjoy reading--preachy info, for one, anything that told them what to do.

Mel: The sixty-four thousand dollar question now: How did you sell your first book?

Cheryl: I wrote several manuscripts before I sold one, one entire novel, already mentioned, one children's book, which did in fact sell later after I learned more about revising, and several partials. Then we moved to the west coast, as I said, and I took a year off teaching and spent all my time writing, attending classes and conferences, learning about writing skills and publishing as a business, met an agent at a conference, and then sold two books, one adult, one young adult which later came out the same month. So as my brother says, an “instant” success, after years of writing :)

Mel: HA!  Can you expand on your obviously difficult agent experience more, please?

Cheryl: The first agent didn't know I would very shortly end up concentrating on YA (young adult) and she didn't know the market. We parted friends. I went with a high powered NY agent but I got lost in the crowd. He had such big names and I ended up selling the books myself, mostly. Then I went on my own for quite a few years. With good newsletters and the occasional conference, I kept up with the market. When I started, once again, writing for adults as well as kids, I thought I needed an agent again, and again, spoke to one at a conference, sent her the manuscript, which she liked, and she now represents my daughter and me, who write the adult books as Nicole Byrd.

Mel: VERY informative, thank you! That brings up another question: What can AUTHORS do to sell their books themselves?

Cheryl: First, make the books just as good as you possibly can, the competition is intense. Then read up on who is publishing what. Publishing goes through cycles, for several reasons. Don't waste your time or the editor's by sending your manuscript to the wrong house.

writermom: You mentioned that you and your daughter have written together.  How do you start a project like that?

Cheryl: We started because it had been so long since I had written an adult novel, I wanted someone to critique it and she was very well read, an English major like her mom, and starting to write herself. She critiqued, then had good ideas, then I suggested that she write a scene, and we found we could blend our voice, so it worked!

bonitap: So, how do you know when a manuscript is ready to submit?

Cheryl: The deadline is a clue. But really, I've written enough now, I usually know when it works, and my daughter critiques the manuscript, too, which is a big help--a critique partner or group you trust is always helpful. I usually go through several drafts to get it polished as I want it.

t green: Good evening, Cheryl, what kind of conferences do you attend for the children's markets and where can we (poor, struggling writers) find one close-by and reasonably affordable?

Cheryl: They are out there. I'm part of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators, and they have big NY and LA conferences, but also regional conferences, often affordable and easier to get to, where you can hear editors speak, as well as artists and writers who can help you refine your own skills.

Mel: On the subject of agents again, Cheryl, WHERE does  writer LOOK to find an agent? Are there books, are there places?

Cheryl: The association of author's reps, I think is the current name, has a list of agents. There are websites which warn against bogus or agents with shady pasts. SCBWI has a list of agents who will rep children's writers for its members. And meeting agents at conferences lets you get a feel for yourself.

Mel: The Association of Authors’ Representatives is at http://www.aar-online.org. How did you know what age group you wanted to write for when you started, AND as you really got into writing for children?

Cheryl: I started with teens because I felt an affinity; I had a painful time as a teen, too shy, too ugly, too everything, ..

Cheryl: I thought. I bet many of us felt the same way. And I had been around teens. Later, when the YA market slowed, as it will periodically, I tried writing for middle grade, and that was fun, too. The chapter books, for ages 7 to 10, came later, too, and I drew on my own children for those. Some writers are drawn to certain age groups, and some write for several age groups. You have to experiment to see what works best for you.

Mel: Could you DEFINE the term "chapter book" for us?

Cheryl: That was a running joke at the last NY conference I attended. In the broad sense a chapter book is any book with chapters, which includes MG and YA. But mainly it means books for the younger age of MG, readers just past picture books and easy readers who have graduated to books with “real” chapters. But different publishers define it in different ways--as one editor joked in NY: Now, is this a chapter book, or middle grade--and the answer varied. So again, study the publishers!

Mel: So chapters are a challenge for readers past picture books, but also give them a good feeling of accomplishment?

Cheryl: Oh yes, they are very proud to read books with chapter breaks--this is big kid stuff!

Mel: Do you think teens today are different from teens a decade ago or more?

Cheryl: In some ways, yes, some, no. Some emotions remain the same, but the outer stuff, cell phones, instant messaging, etc., you have to keep up with. And they are--for better or worse--more sophisticated, on the whole, than we were as kids. On the other hand, not all teens are having sex, or into drugs--that's actually going down, I think. So it's a delicate balance.

t green: Cheryl, when you write your novels, do you go right through and write the ENTIRE novel and then go back and revise, or do you do a chapter at a time?

Cheryl: I don't do a very detailed outline, although I usually know where I want to get to, and only now and then have to change that. I write several pages a day, and

every day I go back and lightly polish the pages from the day before, which gives it a little revision, and also helps me get back into the story. But I try to get to the end, first, and then go back and revise any big stuff that needs it. Other writers work differently. You should do what works for YOU.

Mel: What's the difference between middle grade and young adult fiction?

Cheryl: Actually, a teen's reading skills are not much—on average--advanced beyond middle grade, but what changes is the things they are interested in, the problems they are having. More romance, more decisions to make about sex, thoughts about college, what to do with their lives...always the peer pressure.  Middle grade has more school, friend, family stories. Both groups like mystery and fantasy.

t green: Do you really think it's better to be published "small" (magazines, opinion pieces, etc.) before trying to tackle a novel?

Cheryl: I think any publication will get you more attention from an editor, though in the end, the manuscript must speak for itself. But being published is good for your morale, too, and your words somehow look different in print. It does help you feel like a professional.

remus: Cheryl, when you plan out your chapter books, do you have an outline for the whole series from the beginning or do you go book by book (for example in your "Mind Over Matter" series)?

Cheryl: Both :) Some books, especially hardcover, are sold one at a time; I did two Benny books but only sold one at a time. When it came to the mystery series, I knew I wanted to do a “limited” series, and sold the concept that way to a publisher who was interested in buying short series. When you present a series, you may want several chapters and a detailed outline of the first book, and short paragraph synposes of the rest.

Mel: Did you have the second "Benny" in mind as you wrote the first "Benny," Cheryl?

Cheryl: I thought of the second idea as I was writing the first Benny. I liked the character a lot. I might have done another Benny, but lost my editor, and then Bradbury was sold and later disappeared, sadly.

Mel: Did you tell your editor you had a second one in mind before you showed it to them?

Cheryl: Yes, I think so. They asked for some revision, but not a lot.

Mel: What are the current trends in children's publishing?

Cheryl: I was in NY in Feb, and I can tell you that MG and YA novels are both in demand at publishers, and that's not always the case. They like fresh strong voices.

Picture books are slow, right now. Nonfiction is fairly constant. Some publishers only do nonfiction.

Mel: For those who may not know the history, tell us about Bradbury (which I think first published Judy Blume?), and why its disappearance was sad.

Cheryl: It was a real quality house, IMHO. :) Had a great reputation, had editors like Richard Jackson, and as you said, published Judy Blume and others. It was sold as part of Macmillan and the imprint ended. A lot of once independent publishers have been sold to multi-national groups and it's harder on both editors and authors as a result.

Mel: It isn't just your humble opinion, Cheryl, Bradbury had a reputation that made writers DROOL to be published by them!

tkat_2: I live in Tornado Alley and wrote an article about weather safety as one of my assignments at ICL. I'm afraid what I wrote might scare a child younger than 14. I have to find a new market for it, though, and that is hardest. I'm afraid I got too technical. Any advice?

Cheryl: You certainly have to use language a child can understand. I wouldn't worry too much about scaring them, but do present some positive steps they can take. That makes a scary idea easier to deal with.

Mel: GOOD advice, Cheryl! Why does publishing go through cycles?

Cheryl: One thing, demographics. One year lots of babies are born, the next year or two, fewer, for many reasons, and these babies grow up. So for a while there are many toddlers whose parents are buying books, then MG, then later teens, and so on. So it varies, and don't worry, because cycles change. In addition, some fads come and go. Harry Potter sparked a new interest in fantasy, which is still going strong, so great for fantasy writers. But don't try to write to a trend, because it will change. And remember that it takes a year or two or three to get a new manuscript out into book form. Write what you love, and if you have to, wait for the market to catch up to you.

Mel: Wasn't there a time, Cheryl, not too many years ago, when the market for YA books kind of shriveled up?

Cheryl: Tell me! I was writing YA, too :) That's one reason I shifted to MG for a while, and found I enjoyed that age group, too. But a writer who wants an ongoing career learns to be versatile!

Mel: And THAT sounds like the SECRET of your CONTINUED success! Right?

Cheryl: I think so :)

remus: Cheryl, I was wondering about book series. You might remember the novel I wrote and you edited the first chapters. In the meantime, I have finished the book and I am working on the second part. It is going to be a series of five books. Now that I can start submitting I am wondering if I should submit it as a packet of five or if I should submit one by one. What do you think is better and what way is more likely successful to get published?

Cheryl: Marc, for fantasy, publishers often like two or three at a time, so I would submit the first manuscript and tell them you have plans, or partial manuscripts, for more. I don't know if I'd tell them five because how many they publish will depend somewhat on how the first novels do.

Mel: What was your favorite book as a kid?

Cheryl: I loved fantasy, like Dr. Doolittle, Mary Poppins, The Borrowers, I loved mystery and history and science-fiction. Too many to choose one. :)

Mel: Now, I'm going to ask for ANOTHER of your SECRETS, Cheryl! You lead a VERY busy life, as wife and mother, writing instructor, and published author. HOW do you make time to write in all of that busyness?

Cheryl: That's the hardest question of all! When I had babies, I wrote if and when they napped. Sometimes at night, if I could stay awake. When I was teaching in the classroom and had small kids at home, I wrote at my desk at lunch with a sandwich in one hand and a manuscript in the other. I'm not a morning person so can't get up an hour early, though that works for some. You do the best you can do, but if you REALLY want to write, you find the time. And I wanted to write!

t green: Do you still like fantasy and have you ever thought about writing it?

Cheryl: I love fantasy, and I did a couple of Alice in Wonderland type fantasies for a MG series under a pen name once. But the ideas don't seem to come to me for really original stuff, and you go where the ideas are. So I've done more mystery and historical and contemporary.

Mel: May I ask what your pen name was, and why you used it, Cheryl?

Cheryl: Long story. One thing you can do when you're starting out is write for an established series which uses ghost writers. I wrote five Sweet Valley Twins--happy to say all of mine made the Publishers Weekly children's best seller list, back when they counted individual series books and not all did. But I couldn't use my own name, nor develop my own voice, so eventually stopped writing for them.

Mel: EXCELLENT answer to a question that is very often asked, Cheryl--thanks!...

remus: Cheryl, which children's writer's conference do you think is the best to attend when you have never attended one before?

Cheryl: Depends on what you are looking for. The SCBWI in New York is good for published people and artists; the SCBWI in Los Angeles is good for newer writers. Any regional confernce also gives you a chance to network, meet other writers, hear editors and, IMPORTANTLY, submit to a closed house if that editor is speaking. Do you know what I mean by closed house?

Mel: No, what is that?

Cheryl: Used to be, most children's publishers (houses) accepted unsolicited manuscripts. Now, many do not. But if an editor from a closed house is at a conference, she or he will often accept query letters or manuscript chapters from a writer at the conference, which gets you around the closed door. There are other conferences besides SCBWI, by the way, but I'm just most familiar with those.

t green: Is a first-time author better off going with a small publishing house over a large, well known house? For example, for a first novel, going to a small publisher over, say, Tor?

Cheryl: Hard to tell. In a way, it's not the publisher that matters, but how enthused your editor is over your manuscript. If you find an editor who loves your work, that’s a big plus. She/he will fight for you, support you with the marketing department and try to get you a good cover, send your books out to be reviewed, etc., all important parts of the publishing process.

t green: How do you go about finding that editor? Just keep submitting to different publishers (after doing your homework, of course!)?

Cheryl: Yes, assuming you've done your homework. Again, read the newsletters, study publishers’ websites. That’s often a good way these days as we used to do with publishers’ catalogues, to see what kind of books they are publishing. Read the special spring and fall issues of Publishers Weekly devoted to children's books; there will be ads which tell you about publishers, again, as well as articles and reviews. It's vital to keep up with changes in the publishing houses, as editors come and go and programs change.

Mel: Cheryl, let's talk about contracts, which you've signed DOZENS of! What exactly and simply should we LOOK for in an offered contract? (Besides looking for a pen! (-:})

Cheryl: Don't get too excited :) Take a deep breath, tell the editor who has called you're so happy to hear of their interest, then call a friend who is published...and get your breath and brain back, <grin>. On the other hand, with a first book, there will not be a lot of room to negotiate. Do check the revision of rights clause, and try to be sure you can get rights back when and if--nowadays usually when--the book goes out of print so you can reprint it later. Now the publishers want to keep the rights for possible electronic use and may not want to release it. Look at subrights, foreign sales, movies, etc. You should get a percentage, no less than 50%. One of the easiest things to get is more free author copies, which you can use for reviews or other Public Relations, not to mention all your relatives :0 (Make them buy a copy!) If the contract offers you ten, ask for twenty five. Not much cost to the publisher here.  Remember to read the contract carefully, and there are books which explain the clauses.

Mel: SUPER-GOOD advice, and so up-to-date! When you have an agent, do you ever see the contract? And how much input do you make?

Cheryl: You still see the contract, and you STILL need to read it. No joke, some of my worst contracts were handled by an agent. They make mistakes, too. The royalty percent is very important, but as I said, starting out, you may not have much bargaining power at the time.

Mel: In GENERAL, what royalty percentage is the going rate for middle-grade novels today?

Cheryl: I think the standard is still 10% for hardcover, though some houses do 8%, and 4 to 6% for paperbacks. When you begin to publish, you can ask for an escalation clause, which means that if you sell over a certain number of books—which you usually don't, to be honest—you can get a higher percatage, because by then, the pub will have earned enough to cover its investment.

Mel: I heard an agent last year claim that ADVANCES for children's books were now commonly about twelve thousand dollars, some as low as four thousand, some as high as twenty thousand.  Should I have believed him, Cheryl?

Cheryl: Laughing here.

Mel: I did too, at the time!

Cheryl: From what I hear, they have changed little over the last few years, still can start as low as two or three thousand, go up to ten or more for a book the publisher thinks is really new and exciting. But I saw the Rowling biography on the A & E channel the other night, and she got about $4000 for the first Harry Potter, and that's pretty standard.

Mel: I think that agent was just "talking his wishes"!

Cheryl: Maybe.

guessit: Satisfy my curiosity, please. Cheryl Zach—do you also publish as Cheryl Lanham? If so, I have read some of your teen novels and enjoyed them. How do you achieve the balance between accurate detail, sensitivity and age-appropriateness when writing about young adults dealing with sensitive issues? Are there any rules or guidelines to bear in mind?

Cheryl: No, Lanham is a different Cheryl, but an excellent writer :)

t green: you say the publishing world goes in cycles, what they've got coming out in the spring and fall isn't a very good indication of what they're accepting RIGHT now, is it? Where's the best place to find out what they're accepting today to publish next year or the year after?

Cheryl: At conferences or on-line chats! Or newsletters like the Children's Writer. You have to have people interviewing the editors, talking to pubishers.

Mel: I SECOND that, because, at conferences and chats, writers and authors really talk CURRENT stuff!

tkat_2:Have you heard of “writing for hire" and would you recommend it?

Cheryl: For a new writer, many decide to do it. I don't like the idea of giving up your copyright--though if you're doing a picture book about Scooby Doo, of course, you're not going to have the rights to that story; and you're using someone else's character, just as I did with the Sweet Valley Twins I wrote. But you also get a flat fee (though I will say I've never done that, always had a royalty, even though with book packagers it will be less because they take a share). That's the bad news, the good news is that it gets you jobs, experience, especially as you're starting out. Some very big writers have done that early on, though not all admit it later :)

Mel: Do you mean there were royalties in writing the Sweet Valley Twins books?

Cheryl: I got them. Not everyone did, and I'm not sure what the chances are of that now. It was a long time ago when I wrote for them.

Mel: Probably rather nil chances, I hear today.

Cheryl: Could be.

remus: Cheryl, when you sold the rights to your books in foreign countries, did you, your publisher, or your agent find the publisher there?

Cheryl: Most of the time, it's either the agent—if he or she held back the rights—

and that's only worth it if the agent or agency has contacts to sell to--if not, or if you have no agent you should let the publisher keep them, and often they will sell the rights, and you will get 50% or more of the money. I've had some nice returns from my YA books in several countries, Germany, Norway, etc., and the mystery MG series sold well in France.

Mel: What do you read for leisure—whenever you GET leisure, though I don't see HOW? (-:}

Cheryl: I don't much, ironic, as I love to read. I read nonfiction history, mysteries, fantasy, historicals. I'm not into gore or serial killers.

remus: Can you contact publishers in other countries and ask them if they are interested in your books and then tell your publishers that some of these publishers might be interested?

Cheryl: You can, if you know whom to contact. I'm sure the publisher would be happy to hear of some interest. In fact, it's more common today to jointly publish a book in more than country, whether US and UK, or pic books in different languages,  even. You know about Bologna, where books are shopped to other countries and publishers, but it's mostly publishing houses who attend this, not authors themselves—too expensive.

Mel: When a book is JOINTLY published, in more than one country, is it ONE publisher who does that?

Cheryl: Can be, often is, as today a publisher may have companies in more than one country. but it's also done through co-ops with different houses who make an agreement. Another “new” trend is that hardcovers used to be bought by paperback houses, now they're often published in hard and then soft cover by the same company.

Mel: Do you have any favorite how-to writing books?

Cheryl: There are so many good writing books out there. but a new favorite of mine is David Morrell's Lessons From a Lifetime of Writing. I heard him speak and then bought the book--very interesting and he has a great chapter on chapter shapes.

Mel: Tell us about hardcover versus paperback, Cheryl. Which comes first most often, and why do books sometimes come out RIGHT AWAY as paperbacks?

Cheryl: Hardcover comes first, if at all, most of the time. (Exceptions to everything!) Then it may or may not be picked up in paper. Or original paperback is also published, very popular with Middle-Graders or Young Adults, as they like the easy-to-carry-around books. The advantage to the writer is that more paperbacks are put out, which helps your writing income. On the other hand, hardcover will get more review and award attention from librarians and teachers.

Mel: So some books have NO hardcover printings at all?

Cheryl: Right.

remus: Can the right to publish a story be tied to the right to publish the cover illustration? I noticed that the same book has many different covers in different countries. I was wondering if a publisher can make sure that the same cover comes out in each country?

Cheryl: Honestly, Marc, that's one question I don't know the answer to.  If it were a picture book, it would. But for a novel, I don't know.

Mel: The nitty-gritty now: Where do you find plot ideas?

Cheryl: Everywhere! For contemporary mainstream YA and mysteries, I often find ideas in the news; newspaper or TV stories spark an idea; I've done several YAs from that, Secret Admirer about an on-line romance, Runaway, about a pregnant teen. For historicals, history itself offers so many ideas it's easy to find a story growing in your mind.

Mel: How LONG do you stay with an idea that doesn't seem to be going anywhere before you give it up?

Cheryl: Not long. I put it away into the back of my mind. It will either grow and become insistent upon being written, or slip away, in which case, I don't mourn it. :)

Mel: GREAT advice! What's the longest it's ever taken you to write a book? The shortest?

Cheryl: The longest were the first ones, especially when I spent too much time researching the historical background. It matters to be accurate, but you have to get to the writing! So two years on the first was the longest, nowadays six months or nine is usuall the longest. The shortest, I did once to help an editor in a jam, and I wrote that book in a few weeks, but I do NOT recommend that. It was a challenge, and I like more tim to polish.  It was a short book, too, <grin>.

Mel: How much polishing might you depend on from the EDITOR?

Cheryl: Depends on the editor. A good one is worth his/her weight in gold, though, because he/she will find the spots that don't work, or any slips in logic you made, or scenes that just drag. That's a bonus, because you have time to fix it before you bore a reader or incite a reviewer to cut you to shreds. Not that they don't do that anyhow, now and then, <grin>.

Mel: LOVE IT--reviewers can be merciless!

peanut: Hi, Cheryl. This is Lucie, by the way. When you write a mystery, do             you make a very detailed outline beforehand or do you just start writing and see where it takes you?

Cheryl: Hi, Lucie. Some writers work well with outlines. I'm more likely to know my character well, know the problem he or she must deal with, have an idea where that will lead. But I often don't know the details until my characters go into action, and they often come up with much better stuff than I would have thought up in the beginning. And it's so much fun when they surprise you!

tkat_2: Every writer seems to have one habit that made them successful. What habit made you stand out, Cheryl, from other wannabes?

Cheryl: I believe, with Winston Churchill, that you NEVER give up. I got rejection slips, believe me. But the only way to let “them” win is to quit, and I refuse to quit.  Therefore I keep trying to be better, and I keep writing, and I keep submitting. And here I am, still publishing, which sometimes does amaze me. :)

Mel: Cheryl, you said you KEEP trying, KEEP writing, KEEP submitting, all PRESENT tense. Do you mean that you STILL face rejection as we do?

Cheryl: Indeed, I never take anything for granted. Though at the moment, knock wood, the adult books are going well. The last got a very strong review in Publishers Weekly, hooray! Beauty in Black is a “charming character-driven” novel, they said.  <grin>. I haven't had time to do any children's books, lately, though I haven't given that up for good.

Mel: When a strong review is given, is there a pretty-soon NOTICEABLE rise in sales of the book?

Cheryl: The usual result—very desirable—is that the books get into the book stores and on the shelves. The new writer probably doesn't realize that just being             published, though a big step, doesn't mean your book will make it into the store. Publishers Weekly is for book sellers and libraries, so it helps get the book out, and then you hope the reader will find it. It's a bit different for children's books. For hardcover, you also depend on reviews, for libraries and teachers to find and push the book. For paperback, you hope for a good cover to catch the eye, and also reviews, to get on the shelves. Paperbacks are usually selected by the kids themselves.

Mel: You mentioned characters a moment ago. How do you produce characters who are real to the reader?

Cheryl: I try to create a character who has depth, who is not all good or all bad, who has a past which has made him or her what he/she is today. A vulnerable character with some flaws.

Mel: Can you tell us the very FIRST, meerest beginnings of the character BENNY?

Cheryl: Funny thing, the idea for the first Benny popped into my head when I was sitting in the audience in a writing conference. But I know that he owes a lot to my son...quiet but stubborn...sweet and determined, at the same time.

Mel: Was it a period of days or weeks or months, over which your character Benny grew?

Cheryl: With Benny, weeks--I started writing pretty quickly. It varies, of course.

t green: Cheryl, I got a response to a query I sent to a magazine that's holding my manuscript "under consideration for a future issue." How long should I let them hold it? Six months? A year?

Cheryl: If it's a timely issue, only a few months. If it's a good magazine you'd like to publish with, sI'd be more patient. Not over a year, though, unless they promise you they're really planning to publish “in good faith.” A nice legal term :)

Mel: Did YOU publish in children's magazines before publishing books?

Cheryl: No, I tried publishing adult short stories and the market is so small, I had no luck, except for a few literary or small magazines, which often didn't pay. So I ended up going straight—almost straight—after a couple short stories and the newspaper nonfiction work, to novels.

t green: I have to laugh at your choice of the term "in good faith." The magazine I mentioned that is holding my manuscript is a boy's Christian magazine! LOL!

Cheryl: LOL, too. Though, sad to say, I've heard some bad stuff about some “Christian” publications. So be aware, that's all.

t green: And it was my lesson #4 from ICL about the young Mexican Beach Vendor.

Cheryl: Oh, I loved that one—the Mexican child.

Mel: Do you do a lot of research for your historical novels?

Cheryl: Yes, a lot. Fortunately, the Nicole Byrd books I'm doing now (for adults) are all in the same period, Jane Austen times, and I did my master's thesis on her, so it's an era I've been interested in a long time. I did three YA novels set during the Civil War a while back and almost killed myself doing research for those, because I wanted them accurate enough for school use. But it was great fun, as I love museums and historical sites.

Mel: Do I really have to include dialogue? What about slang?

Cheryl: Kids love dialogue! Action and dialogue, yes, description and narration, use much less of, and slang, be careful with. (Pardon my syntax, too, <grin>.) Slang changes so quickly it will date your YA novel. I often make up slang. Use elliptical sentences to suggest speech patterns, make the dialogue lively and believable, but don't try to capture the lastest fad expression. It will be out of date before your book comes out!

remus: Cheryl, could you tell us how you finally found the ICL and when you started teaching here?

Cheryl: It was recommended to me by a writer friend who was also working for them. My husband was ill, and I wanted to make extra money but also stay home with him, so it worked very well. And I admit, I am a teacher to the bone. You never seem to get rid of that instinct or enjoyment when you can help a new writer.

Mel: Here's a PROMISE from one of your students!:

donnac: Cheryl, just saying HI from Ohio, sorry I missed so much. My assignment will be sent as soon as the cover letter is done.

Cheryl: LOL! Don't worry, I understand.

Mel: What book of yours was your favorite?

Cheryl: I have so many. In YA I love Runaway, I loved the Middle Grade mystery/ ghost series, The Mummy's Footsteps and the rest. I loved the Benny books, and I'm having a ball with the English history with the Nicole Byrd books.

Mel: Which book was hardest to write?

Cheryl: Oh, good question. Historicals take a lot of research. Runaway, a contemporary story, was one where—honest to goodness—the characters wouldn't do what I had planned for them to do. The boy had been abandoned by his own dad, and he wouldn't give up the unborn baby. In the state where the book takes place, the father has to sign also for an adoption. I had to call my editor and tell her the ending wouldn't be what I'd orignially planned (giving the baby up for adoption to a loving couple.) He just wouldn't do it. So I ended up leaving the ending open...we don't really know what will happen. And did I get letters!

Mel: Have you ever had writer's block? If not, why not? If so, what do you do to relieve it?

Cheryl: Not exactly writer's block in the classic sense. One year I wrote five books and wrote myself out. Since then, I take more time to recharge and I do not write seven days a week; I think you need to smell the roses, etc. And when life is tough, family illness, a move, your own injury/illness, you simply may not have the energy. On the other hand, sometimes writing is a good escape. But don't be too hard on yourself, people. If you have a crisis, take care of it. And my students know. :) I will not be after you with the horse whip.

Mel: Tell us about your daily writing schedule, will you, please?

Cheryl: I'm a night person, so I get up late, work in the afternoon and early evening, then revise or read ICL manuscripts and go to bed very late. When I'm traveling or at conferences, I have to act like a more normal person, but that works best for me. I know writers who get up very early and write when the house is quiet, though. Everyone is different.

Mel: What kind of books do you most enjoy writing?

Cheryl: Again, historical, mystery, right now are my favorites. I've been through stages. It's good to do something different occasionally to keep yourself fresh. I published one nonfiction children's book, and it was very interesting and a nice change.

Mel: Is it the RESEARCH that gets you interested in nonfiction?

Cheryl: Often. It has to be a subject I find fascinating, because then I can likely make it just as diverting to the reader. Or that's the plan! :) I find so much interesting, history, space, other cultures.

Mel: Cheryl, you have covered a WORLD of children's writing in these two hours that have passed so swiftly. I stand in even more awe of, not only your accomplishments in publishing for children, but your ability to translate that experience so that we who are not published nearly so much have clearly understood. The visits you have made to our chat room are not enough, however. Would you please consider returning someday in the near future to continue the helpful chat you've carried on with us here this evening?

Cheryl: I'd love to, Mel, and thank you for asking me tonight.

Mel: At our next Guest Chat two weeks from tonight, on July 1 Karen Orfitelli is coming to our ICL Chat Room. Karen has been an editor for McGraw-Hill Publishers for some time, creating and editing educational materials for both children and teachers. Karen Orfitelli has, as well, published articles in over a hundred publications. Her first article was published in 1992, which led to some 300 more, in magazines like Focus on the Family, Breakaway, Brio, Teen, Writer's Digest, The Plain Truth, Clarity, Vietnam and Guideposts. Karen Orfitelli is also an award-winner, of the Guideposts Writers Workshop Contest in 1994 and first place in the Great New England Coast Essay in 1996. You are warmly invited back two weeks from tonight on the First of July to chat with Karen Orfitelli!

Mel: We give our WARM THANK-YOU to you again for being our chat guest tonight, Cheryl Zach. We will work better at our children's writing, in whatever genre, and at working with editors, thanks to your wisdom. I can see by your students' comments here tonight that you are an excellent and beloved ICL instructor! We also say goodbye for now with our WELL WISHES to you in your writing and teaching careers, Cheryl. THANKS for being here with us this evening!

Cheryl: Thank you ;)

t green: Cheryl, you've got several students here, obviously (myself among them!). I just want to say, it's been really cool chatting with you! Thanks for coming out tonight!

remus: And I want to tell all of the students that are listening now that Cheryl is a wonderful instructor and the best when it comes to helping out new writers! Thanks, Cheryl. You have helped me a lot the past two years.

Cheryl: Delighted you were here!

remus: Cheryl,thank you for all the helpful answers. Good luck to you with Beauty in Black. I hope millions of copies will sell! Bye-bye.

Cheryl: Oh, big hugs! :)

tkat_2: Cheryl, Thanks for coming.

peanut:Thanks for being here, Cheryl.

Cheryl: Thanks for listening. :)

Mel: The kudos are MANY, Cheryl, for you did a MARVELOUS job for us tonight!  Goodnight everychildren'swriter!

Cheryl: Good night!