with Carolyn Yoder

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Carolyn Yoder and web editor of the ICL Web Site.

Mel: We are SO GLAD to "see you" tonight! And I am glad and pleased to welcome a chat guest to talk about a topic—American History writing—that we have only ever chatted about once before in the five-plus years of our ICL Chat Room. And we have what I believe is the PERFECT writer and editor to discuss history writing very knowledgeably with us, Carolyn Yoder. I feel almost like I should introduce her as "Dr. Yoder,"—though she does not have a doctorate—because she is eminently informed about her subject. And not only does she "know her stuff" about American History, but she is so very good at helping writers of history produce manuscripts that children will be interested in reading. Carolyn Yoder is "an editor's editor," an editor well respected by her editorial peers. She is here to chat with us about her rather new job with perhaps the newest of children's publishers on the topic, "Getting to Know Calkins Creek Books, the New U.S. History Imprint of Boyds Mills Press." Carolyn Yoder, friend, writer and editor, WELCOME here tonight!

Carolyn: Hello! I might be a tad nervous. This is my first chat!

Mel: It sure doesn’t like your first time to chat, as ably as you are handling things here! Carolyn, were you read to, and did you read a lot as a girl growing up?

Carolyn: I don't really remember being read to as a child, but books were a big part of my life. I come from a family of teachers and librarians. I remember being addicted to Nancy Drew, Cherry Ames, Louisa May Alcott, Laura Ingalls Wilder—series writers—I like to get to know characters again and again. I was always at the library. Even at summer camp I kept my subscription to Weekly Reader and brought all my books!

Mel: A family of teachers and librarians—sounds like you didn't have a chance to be anything but a reader and writer! And that’s a GOOD point you make, Carolyn, that part of the lure of series books for children is getting to know a character better and deeper!

Carolyn: Yes—and it’s also the appeal of getting a magazine. Seeing characters—comic and real—again and again!

Mel: What were your childhood interests in history, if any?

Carolyn: My parents always took us on trips—to Gettysburg, Mystic Seaport and to Williamsburg. I also grew up in Princeton, New Jersey, a place full of history and close to Philly and NYC. Every year my class visited the Princeton Battlefield, Washington Crossing and the Quaker Meeting House. Social Studies, needless to say, was my favorite subject. My first short story (5th grade) took place in Philly and was about the Revolutionary War!

Mel: Do you see the readers of your books and articles being children a lot like you were as a child?

Carolyn: Probably not. I matured late in life and was a tad unruly. But I was also very curious, so I guess you could also say yes!

Mel: Unruly, YOU, Carolyn?!

Carolyn: Yes! I was too eager and hard to control. I like that about me now, NOT then!

Mel: Where did you go and what did you work at right after college?

Carolyn: I went to graduate school and after that moved to Boston, where I worked for a scholarly publisher. I worked with academics, business people, on "specialized' subjects. I learned to appreciate solid research and good writing. These things proved VERY useful later in life!

Mel: You've done some really "heavy" history writing. How did your interest in deeper, more complex history issues develop?

Carolyn: Probably at Cobblestone Publishing. I worked on so many different subjects and met different people, mostly historians and museum people, whom I learned from. One person I have worked with over the years is a Lincoln scholar named Harold Holzer. He is so passionate about Lincoln that it has rubbed off and I am devoted to the subject and learning as much as I can. Does that answer your question?

Mel: Yes! Was U.S. History always your favorite area of history?

Carolyn: No. When I was in college I was into King Arthur—not the lady in distress stuff—but the knights, the swords, the adventures, the passion. I took medieval history, literature, science, art. I became aware of how disciplines are interrelated. That has proved very useful when doing research. That research should be diverse, looking at subjects from a variety of angles.

Mel: It sounds like you know history inside and out, upside-down, backwards and front wards—from the beginning of time! Tell us about the history of Cobblestone Publications itself, Carolyn, please.

Carolyn: Cobblestone Publishing was started about 25 years ago by two teachers who wanted to offer kids exciting history stories. I arrived about three years later; they were publishing, I believe, Cobblestone as well as Classical Calliope, devoted to classical Rome and Greece. During my time there—13 years—the company grew in people and in magazines and books. They published Faces, Calliope (world history), Odyssey, and Cobblestone, as well as books. Today it is going strong and they have added more books and more magazines. For those of you interested in history, check them out! They are a great place to start your writing career!

Mel: The GREAT thing for writers at Cobblestone, in my opinion is that you can send them a query for an issue coming up in some months and get a go-ahead (or a stop!) very quickly. Did YOU have anything to do with developing that policy?

Carolyn: No. The query process was in place when I arrived, along with the use of expert reviews. Cobblestone is also a great opportunity to learn about our country's history, a mini U.S. history course. In fact writing for any of their magazines expands your mind. After I had been there a while, friends always wanted me to apply to be on "Jeopardy." I knew a lot about all sorts of things!

Mel: See you on "Jeopardy"! Carolyn, is it important in writing an article to interview at least one EXPERT? If probably so, do you have suggestions as to how we can go about contacting an expert, arranging an interview?

Carolyn: It really isn't that hard—experts enjoy being contacted. The best place to start is with your research—the bibliographies in your references, the authors of the books. But sometimes academics need to be reminded of who you are writing for. They sometimes have a hard time with young readers and want you to include all sorts of things. Also, you can contact museums, foundations, organizations, libraries. For my Washington book, I simply called Mount Vernon and they helped me locate an expert. Most experts want to make sure that what is offered to kids is accurate and fair. It's exciting meeting people who are passionate and dedicated to what you are writing about!

Mel: GOOD point made about reminding the experts that these are CHILDREN we're writing for!

Carolyn: We look for the essence of a character—not your standard textbook fare. We like to see anecdotes that bring the person to life. We like to "hear" his/her words—primary sources. Remember, biography is all about character. Kids will relate strongly to someone who is ALIVE, not flat, two-dimensional!

Mel: Carolyn, when you wrote George Washington: The Writer, where and how, exactly, did you begin on that project?

Carolyn: Well, I had worked with Harold Holzer on his Abraham Lincoln the Writer, and I knew I wanted to start writing books. So I looked around my home, and figured I should do Washington because Washington was in New Jersey a lot! I did general research, and then contacted Mount Vernon. They helped me with references—they recommended the best books and helped me locate a scholar I could work with. She ended up working with me through ALL stages of the book—from outline to page proofs. She was an editor of the Washington Papers. She was perfect—and very patient!

Mel: Your unique "slant" on Washington (who has been biographed a lot) was in his WRITING. Was that a "light bulb" of inspiration that came on over your head one day?

Carolyn: No. The Lincoln book was set up that way, but I took a slightly different path. I molded his life around his writing. The more I read—years of research—the more the research led me in this direction. I'll say it a lot tonight. Research makes for solid and original writing; you get your stories and rich details the deeper you dig!

Mel: So it is as you said earlier, you got to know the PERSON, the anecdotes, the REAL LIVE PEOPLE.

Carolyn: Yes, but it's more than that. You come to see his/her many sides, how others saw him, how his family saw him, how he saw himself. Believe me, I probably know Washington better than some of my friends (only kidding J ). My sister even gave me his portrait—framed—to put by my computer. I felt such a strong connection to him—mostly because I got inside his head!

Mel: EXCELLENT insights—thank you, Carolyn!

Carolyn: Woolwoman, are you asking about writing historical novels how to get started?

Carolyn: I guess the best way to get started is to think about what you might be interested in writing about, what subject moves you. What would you like to know more of? Historical fiction takes as much research as nonfiction. Without devotion and passion to the subject you won't find the core of the story. That comes from the research. Once you have found the core, the characters, the setting, you can begin to shape your story.

Mel: Here are two closely related questions put together:

Carolyn: lizzie and tanya, if we are talking about articles for Highlights, I would be very interested. I don't get much—if anything—on our northern neighbors, except for articles about Alaska. So I would encourage you both to look at the magazine and submit articles or send me queries directly.

Carolyn: I would say stories about children in the past, stories about well-known as well as unsung heroes. One type of article that is very successful in Highlights is the personal memoir. Kids relate well to how things happened in the past and they love reading about them first-hand. Another successful article is the adventure story, basically any story with a strong plot and characters. We sometimes forget that nonfiction depends on the same elements as fiction. We also hear from young readers when they can place themselves in the story—it's about their home town, their heritage, etc.

Carolyn: I would say think character, action, humor, atmosphere, and tone. It's exciting when I receive an article that captures all of these—especially humor!

Mel: We so appreciate your coming to the ICL Chat Room tonight to be with us here, friend!

Carolyn: Glad to be here!

Mel: How and when did your move from Cobblestone to Highlights come about?

Carolyn: I left Cobblestone in 1996 and decided to try freelancing. I had met a lot of freelancers at Cobblestone and envied their lifestyle. Little did I know how hard it really is. I also wanted to work for a museum. I worked with people in all kinds of museums and thought I would see what that was all about. So I went to work at Highlights, editing their history and world cultures articles, and became director of a small history museum. I liked the diversity. I also started to think about writing. I had written a bit at Cobblestone, but wanted to see what writing was all about. I wrote for National Geo World and ICL. Writing made me a much better editor. Freelancing also made me a better editor. I no longer direct a museum, though I still work for them. I love all three—writing, editing, and museum work!

Mel: So as a writer, you wrote and submitted magazine pieces before you wrote and submitted books?

Carolyn: Yes. I did. I had written for Cobblestone, mostly about radio, TV, and movies—a passion of mine—but wanted to refine my research skills. So I started with heavily researched articles, which were great background for book work!

Mel: Is it best for US to submit to magazines before trying to write and submit books nowadays?

Carolyn: I do encourage writers starting out to consider magazine writing. It helps to define an area of expertise, to practice writing, to practice research skills, and to understand the editorial process—what it’s like to work with an editor—this is key. Writing is all about collaboration. It seems there are also more opportunities in magazines; there are nonfiction and fiction articles—short and long, activities, picture essays, interviews, personal accounts. I always tell writers that editors READ magazines in search of authors. Also, articles can lead to books. Authors fall in love with their subjects and they can't stop, and want to complete their picture—as best they can!

Carolyn: Lighthouses are a popular subject—all kinds of people are drawn to them. We have done a few articles on them in the past, about a young girl manning one and then another article about a person who saved people from shipwrecks—not a lighthouse keeper, per se. A personal story about a lighthouse would intrigue kids, because they can still see them, but not in operation. I think for the most part they are almost all closed. If you can open kids’ eyes to the past—and why lighthouses were important—they can make the connection. That monument will come to life. There are so many lighthouse groupies and organizations that it wouldn't be hard to find information!

Carolyn: dyett, it depends. A lot of times research is part of their jobs. Many historical societies and nonprofit organizations answer questions or read manuscripts as part of their mission. It also depends on how much you are asking of the expert. IF you are having them read a short article, I would say the fee would be nominal. If, on the other hand, you are asking someone to read an entire manuscript (about 100 pages) you might want to offer them a payment of say, $50. This is just a suggestion. A lot of times people are more than willing to help out. It's important to tell your expert ahead of time exactly what you would like them to do and the time frame. Their time is precious and you might need to go back to them. I have formed very strong bonds with experts and rely on them for all kinds of questions.

Mel: Are "cold calls" by phone or e-mail to experts preferable because they can be more spontaneous, Carolyn?

Carolyn: I have had mixed results. Sometimes a phone call is fine and the person doesn't mind being interrupted; but I can tell almost immediately when I have imposed on a person, and that means I feel awkward. Sometimes experts don't respond to e-mails. For my Washington book I relied on about ten or so experts and I think I approached them all via e-mail. Most were thrilled to be contacted. I had no problem whatsoever!

Mel: So, if your "imposition meter" goes way up and you feel awkward having made the call, how do you handle that?

Carolyn: I stumble around a lot and apologize and win them over, seriously. I apologize for interrupting them and get to the point quickly. I have rarely received a no from an expert. I don't think it's my charm. I think they genuinely want to help. So many writers are nervous to contact people. I say don't be. It's so satisfying to chat—on-line or by phone—about your subject. One interesting story: I contacted a person to interview and also discovered we had movies and radio in common. And I almost forgot what I really called him for!

Mel: It sounds to me like just good communication, and YOU are a GOOD communicator!

Carolyn: Absolutely not! Most of the people I contacted for the book had never heard of me. I think if you are serious and courteous, you'll be successful. When I conduct my workshops, I asked attendees to consult experts as part of the assignment. I don't believe anybody has ever had a problem. Believe me, most experts love their subjects so much they enjoy sharing stories!

Carolyn: I would say about three or four years.

Carolyn: Cobblestone, on American history, Faces, on world cultures, Odyssey, on science, Dig, on archeology, Appleseeds, on American History (for younger kids), and Footsteps, on African American heritage. They are all part of the Cricket Group of magazines.

Carolyn: Well at Highlights I edit the world cultures articles, and I am always looking for articles on other parts of the world. These can be first-person accounts or articles that are based on the heritage of the authors. We publish a lot of articles about different cultures in America, the immigrant experience.

Mel: Here's a special message for the special person you are from someone here this evening, Carolyn:

Carolyn: Hello, Hope! Chautauqua is really a magical place. It's a week full of lectures, workshops, manuscript evaluations, mentoring, dinners, ice cream, and just plain fun.

Mel: Oh, the ice cream—YUMMERS!

Carolyn: It's exhausting but beyond words, a great place to learn about all aspects of children's literature—to learn the craft and to polish your skills. I have been going for about 10 years and I learn so much, too. That's the wonderful thing: both conferees and faculty get to know one another, appreciate one another, and learn from one another!

Carolyn: This can be a tough one if you don't speak Russian, but I would suggest first going to the Internet to "place" the subject. I went on Google about your question and searched under "Russia before the Revolution, " "Russian History," and the best one "Russian Emigration." I got great results when I added this to that last one: "and Belgium." You'll find lots of things here. One hit was "Russian Émigré Bibliographic Resources." Another idea is to look for Russian history museums, scholars, and organizations here in the US, and contact someone there who can direct you. Don't forget that "experts" are a part of your bibliography—just like books!

Carolyn: Thanks, Barb, that's a great question. "Laugh With Lincoln" was carefully researched. We worked very closely with an expert and we discussed oral tradition. The research for this article was based on a variety of sources. Many of the stories featured in the article were passed down from person to person through the ages and are different from source to source. All kinds of people have enjoyed talking and writing about Lincoln, especially his humor. And of course adding their own spins to their stories. I think it is important AND interesting that young readers are aware that the historical record is based on opinion, observation, etc. That history is open to interpretation. No two eyewitness accounts are the same, for example. Young readers probably realize that stories change over time and according to who is telling them. They probably know this from experience. At the end of the article, we mention that these humor stories did change because of these two things—that's why we used the qualifiers you noted. We acknowledge that these stories are based on the "originality" of human recorders. Does that answer your question?

Mel: Yes, GOOD insights, Carolyn!

Carolyn: Great question, Dionna. When we suggest that the authors look at back issues we are basically talking about approach. For example, with nonfiction biographical articles, we like to "see" the essence of a character—I talked about this earlier—and to hear his/her words—from primary sources. How the author gets at this is what makes the article unique—fresh. A successful article is a balancing act—the research is molded to offer a rich portrait bringing the subject to life. At Highlights we tend to stay away from standard encyclopedic fare—birth to death. Sometimes we highlight a few anecdotes, sometimes only one, that "point" to character.

Mel: People are asking about Calkins Creek Books, so let's move on to that. First of all, that NAME is intriguing. Where did the name CALKINS CREEK BOOKS come from?

Carolyn: It's the creek that runs by Boyds Mills—appropriate since it is an imprint of Boyds Mills Press. Calkins Creek has a rich history, and a creek is ever-changing—so the name is appropriate!

Mel: Where did the FIRST germ of the idea for a publisher of JUST history-related books come from?

Carolyn: I would have to say with Kent Brown. Boyds Mills had/has been doing a lot of history books, so he thought the time was right. I’m not so precise on that one, but think that was the evolution.

Carolyn: Hello Loretta! Calkins Creek will specialize in nonfiction and historical fiction, picture books, chapter books—long and short, and novels. In the beginning I stressed Revolutionary War and Civil War histories; but now that has expanded, due to what I have received. The first titles will include 20th century, 19th century, and 18th century subjects. George Washington, by the way, is really part of a unique series.

Mel: What generally do you look for in prospective manuscripts for Calkins Creek Press now?

Carolyn: I am looking for more nonfiction manuscripts. I seem to be getting more historical fiction. I'm also interested in a wide variety of subjects. One thing to keep in mind: History needs to be front and center at Calkins Creek. Stories need to be woven into a strong historical and cultural context.

Mel: What do you do FIRST, Carolyn, when you receive any submitted manuscript?

Carolyn: I usually look to see if there is a bibliography; many times there isn't. And I'm not sure how you can write nonfiction and historical fiction without a strong research base. I also look to see how extensive the bibliography is—that it is varied, primary and secondary sources, articles, interviews, dissertations, and so on. The research will tell me if the writer is serious as well as passionate. I then go to the cover letter to learn why the author tackled the subject and why he or she is the best person to write it. I don't really care about credentials unless they relate to the manuscript. When I'm convinced that the author is serious, passionate, and "right," I can approach the manuscript without caution. I would think that's how an author would want me to approach his/her work.

Mel: About how MANY sources should be in the bibliography for a submitted manuscript?

Carolyn: That's a hard one. At Calkins Creek Books, we recommend that authors rely on the most up-to-date and classic references, adult and children, primary and secondary. We also recommend working with experts. I check up on the subject so I have an idea of how complete the bibliography is. The weakness I see is that most authors use children's books and Web sites as their only references.

Mel: Can I use Internet sources for my bibliography? What are some guidelines?

Carolyn: Sure. I usually tell authors to avoid "personal" sites (travel type sites) and stick with recognized museums, libraries, organizations, foundations, etc. I do not advise getting primary sources on-line unless they are from the publishing house. For example, the University of Virginia publishes Washington's papers and I went to their site in writing George Washington: The Writer— a lot!

Carolyn: dyett, any project has a good chance to get published, especially if it is well-researched and well written. At Calkins Creek Books, that's why I go to the bibliography first, and then the cover letter. I want the writer to convince me that they are the one. You can be just starting out or a seasoned pro, your work speaks for you!

Carolyn: That's a tough one, tanya. I would say after you have read all of the most up-to-date and classic sources, including input from an expert/experts, and once you feel "comfortable" with the subject, you're reading to write. Comfort is key!

Carolyn: Absolutely! I would suggest you narrow the subject and pick one aspect of the war or a person. At Highlights we tend not to feature battles, but there are so many wonderful stories about this time period. I would also encourage you to look at Reconstruction. I don't get much on the War's aftermath!

Mel: A related question, Carolyn:

Carolyn: I don't work on historical fiction for Highlights. That is Judy Burke's area, but I know she is always looking for solid historical fiction pieces. Civil War is always welcomed!

Carolyn: loretta, I am always in need of 20^th-century history. I tend to get a lot of articles on 19th-century history. So 20^th-century as well as the 18th, 17th, and early America. I'm also in need of holiday pieces—Christmas and Thanksgiving—historical treatments of these subjects.

Carolyn: dyett, a picture essay in Highlights usually consists of about 6 pictures with short captions and an introduction of about 100 to 150 words. We had a picture essay on unusual buildings in Highlights that became a picture book at Boyds Mills Press. What a great use of research!

Carolyn: Absolutely! The Frick in New York City. I go there to catch my breath and soak in all that great art. I also spend a lot of time at the David Library, a scholarly library of the Revolutionary War on the Delaware River—peaceful and magical!

Mel: This is the last question, sad to say:

Carolyn: I have been conducting workshops on historical fiction, nonfiction, and biography out in Honesdale, Pennsylvania. The great thing about these workshops is that nonfiction and research types come together to form a family, so to speak, in just four days. I learn so much from the people who come. They are a combination of lecture, discussion, critique—and wonderful food. Being out in the woods also helps!

Mel: Carolyn Yoder, we finally were rewarded by having you in our ICL Chat Room, and here the two hours of chat has seemed more like 20 minutes. THANK YOU for all you've shared with us about your writing, your editing, and about Calkins Creek Books, which I'm thinking you've helped us to be more honed and defined for, with our submissions to you. You've given us a very clear understanding of what Calkins Creek Books is about, and what you believe and will strive for as Editor of Calkins Creek. We could really go on and on with our questions, so I hope you'll be able to come back someday and rejoin us in a chat about Calkins Creek Books, and about your obvious love of the history of the United States. Would you come back at a future time, please?

Carolyn: I would love to come back. I had a lot of fun and hopefully answered all your questions!

Mel: On the first Thursday evening in March, March 3, Karen O'Connor will make a happy return to our chat room. She will chat and give excellent writer's advice about "How To Balance Writing And Family Life." You want to write—but you have a spouse and children and a full-time job and friends and aging parents and hobbies and obligations! How in the world can you balance it all and still keep your wits about you? Come back here Thursday night, March 3, when Karen O'Connor, author, speaker, writing mentor, wife, mother, and grandmother, will tell you what she does to keep the balance—the same things she's done for the past 30 years. Karen started writing when her last child started Kindergarten and has been writing ever since. That "child" is now 38! You can do it too, but it will take tenacity, timing, and telling the truth about yourself! You will leave that March 3 chat with some practical tools that will help you become fully a writer, while still putting your family first!

Mel: Carolyn Yoder, MANY THANKS to you again for making so clear the kind of history writing that young readers are interested in. We so appreciate your taking the time from your busy schedule in which you wear many hats. And we wish you and Calkins Creeks Books our BEST in the months and years ahead. It will be exciting to have you guest again someday and update us on what has happened with Calkins Creek Books. Our BEST to you in writing!

Carolyn: Thank you. Great luck to all!

Mel: Thanks for being here, and goodnight, everybubby! J

Carolyn: Goodnight, Mel!