Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Victoria Strauss, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.

Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Victoria Strauss.

Jan: Hi! Welcome to our special chat with Victoria Strauss of Writer Beware. Victoria Strauss is the Vice-Chair of SFWA's Committee on Writing Scams, and the webmistress of the Writer Beware website, which she also created. She's the author of seven novels for adults and young adults. I'm your moderator, Jan Fields. So let's talk about how to protect ourselves in today's publishing world.

Jan: Thank you so much for joining us, Victoria.

Victoria: Glad to be here.

Jan: So...can you tell us how you got started in scam busting...where did you get your superhero cape and tights?

Victoria: Ha! People often ask me if I got into scambusting because I'd been scammed, but the answer is no. My publishing experiences have been positive, for the most part. But when I first went online in the mid 1990's, I was fascinated to see many comments from writers who'd had bad experiences with agents and publishers. I really didn't know this kind of scamming existed. I got very interested in the whole issue and when the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America were looking for someone to create a special website to warn about scams, I volunteered. That's how Writer Beware was born.

Jan: And I understand you're part of a team now with the intrepid A.C.Crispin?

Victoria: Yes. Around the time that I was creating the Writer Beware website, Ann was starting up the SFWA Writing Scams Committee. Neither of us knew what the other was doing, until a mutual acquaintance introduced us. We decided to join forces. So Writer Beware is the public face of the Scams Committee. The Committee does a lot of behind the scenes work.

Jan: Do you guys get a lot of inquries on the site about specific agents, publishers and what not?

Victoria: Yes, we do. Just through the Writer Beware email address, I get up to 100 questions a week. And both Ann and I get maybe 30-40 more questions a week to our private email addresses.

Jan: Wow...that's a lot of folks looking for help, I'm glad they find it with y'all.

Victoria: We are too!

Victoria: The Writer Beware website URL is www.writerbeware.org

Victoria: I think there are a lot of situations like this where it isn't actually a scam. It's just that the people involved are inexperienced or don't really know what they're doing. Actually, inexperienced editors/agents/publishers are as great a menace to writers as scammers are. I think the thing to look for, with anyone who is offering to publish your work is either a publisher or magazine or whatever that has been in business for a year or more and has actually published things or, if the publisher or magazine is new, a proprietor who has previous publishing or editing experience and can be expected to know the business. If you can't discover who the person is behind the publisher, or if you can't definitely determine that the person has experience, It's probably best to hold off on submissions until you can find out more.

Jan: Yeah, it's not enough for someone to be REALLY nice.

Victoria: Absolutely not...If they don't know what they are doing, they'll cost you TIME and often money too. If I had a dollar for everyone I've heard from who's been ripped off by someone who was nice, I'd be able to go on vacation. Nice is not a proper qualification.

Jan: I know one writer was terribly sad when his "agent" died...only to find out she was a scammer who faked her death to run off with money.

Victoria: Believe it or not, that's not an uncommon story.

Victoria: For contests, there are a couple of issues...First, are they legit? Second, will winning or placing in the contest be something you can put on your writing resume? You may not really care about the second--you may just want to challenge yourself or try for the prize money, and that's fine. But if you do want to enter a contest in order to gain writing credits, you should be aware that not that many contests have much prestige. I often get questions from writers who want to enter contests as a way of impressing editors, but in my opinion, you're better off if you just submit your work for publication. Now, as to legitimacy, You want to be sure that the organization conducting the contest is an established organization, such as a publisher that has been in business for a year or more, or a magazine that has put out several issues -- in other words, you want to be sure it's not just a fly by night outfit. You also want to make sure that the entry fee is not exorbitant, anything over $25 should prompt caution. Contrary to popular belief, many legitimate contests charge some kind of entry fee, but it should not be a high entry fee. Another thing to check is who's judging the contest. If they are industry people or people you've heard of, the contest will probably be more prestigious. And last but not least READ THE FINE PRINT!! Many contests have unpleasant surprises in their guidelines, such as all entries becoming the property of whoever's conducting the contest. Be sure you read the guidelines.

Victoria: Whew, long answer!

Jan: Now, that's a comprehensive guide! Okay, I have two questions that I THINK really get the same answer so here they come...

Victoria: You're protected by copyright law from the moment you write down the words. Registering your copyright with the US copyright office is a separate step. It doesn't afford you any extra protection. it simply makes it possible to sue in court if your work is infringed. But theft of unpublished work is so rare as to be functionally nonexistent, so theft is about the last thing that new writers need to worry about. A good agent or publisher won't risk his or her reputation by stealing. A bad agent or publisher isn't interested in your manuscript, just in your money. So send out your work and don't worry about it being stolen.

Jan: Okay...I want to ask one I get asked a lot...Tell us please...why is the Children's Literary Agency NOT a good deal.

Victoria: Oh boy, I was hoping you'd ask that one. Children's Literary Agency is part of a larger group composed of six "agencies" plus an editing service. The entire focus of the operation is on getting writers to pay for critiques and editing. Writers are first asked to pay for a critique, then more editing is suggested, often for as much as $2,000. As far as we know, the editing fees are this company's entire source of income, because to our knowledge, it has never sold any books to any publishers. Children's Literary Agency has only been around since early 2005, but ST Literary Agency, the agency that turned itself into Children's Literary Agency and the others, has been in business since 2001 and in all that time it has not sold one literary property, as far as we know. Not one. It's a fee factory, pure and simple, run by a man who was fined for securities fraud in the State of Washington, and has obviously found a way to keep on selling snake oil. Unfortunately, because agenting, unlike securities, is not a licensed or regulated business, he not only gets away with it, he is making a killing.

Jan: Would you say -- even in an agent who MEANS well, that charging fees tends to undermine their incentive to sell?

Victoria: Yes, the agent-author relationship is based on a shared financial interest in the author's success. If the agent makes money only when the author does, the agent is not only motivated to sell the author's manuscript; he's motivated to get the most lucrative possible deal. When you pay an agent ahead of time you're diminishing his incentive to get out there and sell your work.

Victoria: One more thing -- It may seem that an agent who is charging his clients or can't be making all that much money, but many of these agencies have hundreds of clients, and turn them over two or three times a year. Literary scams are a multi-million-dollar business.

Jan: I know that many authors are now wise to "reading fees" so how are fake agents trying to make those fees sound legitimate?

Victoria: Reading fees were once the most common kind of fee, but as you say, writers have gotten wise, so these days they're actually the kind of fee you're least likely to encounter. Mostly what's charged now is a marketing or submission or administrative or circulation fee--there are many different names for it, but basically it's an upfront charge due on contract signing. The agent justifies it by saying that it's to defray the cost of submission, and "all agents" require their clients to bear some of the cost of submission. This is true, but legitimate agents let the costs accrue and deduct them from the client's advance, or else bill the costs as they're incurred, they don't ask for upfront money.

Jan: I know the "pool" of money from which the "agent" will draw office costs is a popular fake fee.

Victoria: That's right.

Victoria: There are various steps you can take. They range from filing complaints with various agencies to hiring a lawyer. What recourse is available to you depends on your situation. Fraud is actually pretty hard to prove, in part because it often looks so much like incompetence. On the Overview page of the Writer Beware website, there's a section on legal recourse which details some of the steps you can take and provides links to some helpful resources including some low-cost legal consulting services like Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.

Jan: Why do you think the authorities seem to take soooooo long to get interested in literary fraud?

Victoria: Several reasons. I think the authorities don't understand much about how publishing works. It's often very hard to explain to police or the FBI why agents shouldn't charge fees. Another issue is that in most cases, the per-person scam amount is small, usually only a few hundred dollars and it's hard to make the case that a few hundred dollars multiplied by hundreds of people adds up to a lot of money. Last but not least, literary fraud is a niche crime that doesn't threaten the general public. I think that's maybe the most salient reason why law enforcement tends to overlook literary scammers.

Victoria: Any mention of an upfront fee is an obvious red flag. A low commission rate should also prompt caution, since it's sometimes a way to make writers feel better about paying upfront by offering a "bargain" commission. Standard commission for domestic sales is 15%, but many scam or amateur agents charge 10%. Other things to watch for include unreasonable claims on contract termination, such as demanding a commission on sales of sequels even if the agent had nothing to do with selling them. And never, ever sign a contract that doesn't have a termination clause! Writer Beware has a blog, and one of my recent posts goes into a lot more detail about what you should and shouldn't see in an agent's contract -- the blog URL is www.accrispin.blogspot.com

Victoria: Well, ideally, zero, because although the agent will expect you to pay some of those submission costs, she'll let them accrue and deduct them from your advance. So you shouldn't have to pay anything out-of-pocket before a sale is made. Some agents do bill submissions costs, but this is less typical--and less desirable. The actual costs of submission vary a lot, depending on how many submissions are made. but it really shouldn't be more than a few hundred dollars a year.

Victoria: Gladys, I'm not really sure what you're asking. Really, no fee is acceptable. Agents charge a commission on sales (15%) and nothing else. They also expect you to pay some of the costs of submitting your work, such as photocopying, postage, long distance phone calls, courier fees, and the like. Things like stationary, rent, legal fees, and overhead are absorbed as the normal costs of doing business, and are NOT charged back to you. The only costs you should have to bear, (and remember, you ideally shouldn't be paying those costs out of pocket, but having them deducted from your advance if you make a sale)...are costs that the agent wouldn't incur if he didn't represent you. So you really aren't paying any fees, you're just defraying some of the expense of representation. The only thing you are actually paying your agent is his commission.

Jan: Some people just don't want to know -- they are so hungry for publication and scammers talk sooooo nicely and sound so good. They wouldn't be very successful if they didn't sound good.

Victoria: Yes, it's true. The power of scammers (and amateur agents as well) is that they speak to people's hopes and dreams...often, I hear from writers who are desperate to sign the contract with CLA or a similar agency because it's the first positive response they've ever gotten. Somewhere inside themselves they know there's a problem, but the dream is just too strong and they can't let it go.

Jan: I can't count the number of times people have heard about a scam, then said...okay, thanks. I'm going to submit anyway but I'll keep my eyes open.

Victoria: Me too. Very frustrating.

Victoria: That depends. Many established agents reserve the right to accrue submissions costs or charge them back to the client. The idea being that if the client terminates the relationship before the book sells, or the agent decides he can't sell the book the agent will then present the writer with a bill. But this doesn't happen all that often. much of the time the agents just eat the costs. I have gotten complaints from writers whose agents slapped them with a bill for thousands when the writer decided to go elsewhere, but these agents were all either scammers or incompetents. Actually, I know of one amateur agent who presents his clients with an editing bill if they try to quit him. I got several panicked letters from clients who had no idea this agent was going to do this. I told them to ignore him. Writers often assume that agents are more knowledgeable and powerful than they are and that therefore the agents have some magical way of compelling them to honor ridiculous and exorbitant charges but the truth is that these people are simply trying to intimidate their clients, and if you ignore them they'll go away. They have no means to enforce their demands.

Victoria: It varies. Some agents use a per-project contract, where representation is for just one book. Some agents have a contract term, such as a year or two or three. And some use open-ended contracts, which extend as long as the agent or the client wants the contract to remain in force. My preference is for the latter, as it's less hassle than signing a new contract for every new project, or renewing every year, As long, of course, as there's a termination clause. Once again: NEVER sign a contract that doesn't have a termination clause.

Victoria: Ideally, it should give you and the agent the right to terminate at will with 30 days' written notice. Watch out for termination clauses that make you show cause, or make you give 90 days' notice.

Victoria: I wish I could give you a good answer, but my freelance experience is very limited. Apart from common sense things like making sure that the magazine has been around for a while and that it offers a contract to its writers. I'm afraid I don't have any useful advice. Sorry.

Jan: The "been around awhile" can be crucial. A lot of start up magazines fail to find their place in the market. And a lot of people starting up magazines don't have the finances to ride out those early tough years. The more a magazine looks like "loving hands at home" the better chance you're dealing with shakey funding.

Victoria: Ditto for publishers.

Jan: And guess who tends to get the short cash stick first???

Victoria: Ain't it the truth.

Jan: These days it's very easy for publishers to pop up with a small amount of funds and no real experience in publishing. They don't understand how expensive real publishing is. Many of these folks couldn't get their own books published and honestly want to give writers a break. They aren't a scam...but they are almost always a very very bad idea.

Victoria: The same thing is true of agents. There are as many amateur agents as scammers, and they can do a writer just as much harm.

Victoria: I would never accept a publishing contract offered on those terms. Revision is an expected part of the publication process, since you'll be working with an editor and the contract should address that, but the contract offer shouldn't be conditional on revision. At any rate, without making any more guesses, I would advise you not to accept such a contract. You don't want to be chasing after the publisher which at the end of all your revisions could say "Thanks but no thanks" and leave you high and dry.

Jan: Though it's not that uncommon for an editor to suggest revisions and say she'd be willing to see it again...but not contracts mentioned...and you're welcome not to send it again too.

Victoria: Right, An editor may want a second look once you've revised, but she won't dangle a contract in front of you to get you to do the revisions. You know, something that's "suggested" on condition of something else, is about as reliable as verbal promises that aren't included in a contract. In other words, not reliable at all.

Victoria: Unfortunately, no, I don't know of any list like this from any writers' organization that doesn't include a few bad apples.

Jan: And speaking of a bad apple that slipped into a lot of market lists and guides (at least at first)...

Victoria: Oh boy, Publish America!!! Well, it's a neo-vanity publisher. Which is to say, it doesn't charge a fee, but gets its money on the back end by encouraging writers to buy their own books. Writers aren't required to buy their own books, as some vanity publishers do, but they receive constant incentives to do so, through discounts and special offers. PublishAmerica claims to reject 80% of all submissions. Which, even if true, isn't enough to ensure high quality (commercial publishers reject something like 97%). It does little or no editing, no meaningful book marketing, and its cover prices are the highest of any POD publisher around. It has a poor contract, its staff are rude and unhelpful, especially to writers who have problems or complain. Its books are badly designed and poorly formatted, and often full of errors introduced in the .pdf conversion process. It has also become so notorious as a bad publisher that plenty of people in legitimate publishing have heard of it, which is NOT the case with most other vanity publishers. For many people in the know, PublishAmerica reflects very badly on an author. Which is a shame, because while PA is ready to publish bad books, it's equally willing to accept good ones and there are some good writers who've gotten hijacked by PA and whose books will never, as a result, get the exposure they deserve.

Jan: Really virtually any print on demand set up is a PARTICULARLY bad idea for a children's writer. They cost far too much and cost is a MAJOR deal in children's publishing...ask any publisher. They have no bookstore placement. They don't get reviewed. You could print your books yourself and distribute them to your friends and get as many readers as your average POD publisher, And if you aren't getting readers...and it's costing you money...what is the point?

Victoria: Speaking of reviews, PublishAmerica authors send out so many books to newspapers and magazines that many reviewers simply won't even look at PA books. Some review sites have a policy against reviewing them because PA authors who've gotten bad reviews have gotten so upset and made trouble for them.

Victoria: POD = print on demand. This is a technology that allows a single book to be printed and bound in minutes as opposed to being produced in print runs of several thousands. Unfortunately, print on demand has become associated with vanity publishing because of the big "self-publishing" companies like iUniverse and Xlibris. Nowadays, "POD" is practically synonymous with "vanity".

Jan: But although printing book by book seems cheap (and the initial outlay is less than having a print run) the per book price is well higher than most readers will pay. You really just can't sell these things.

Victoria: Right. It's also not true that POD books are indistinguishable from offset-printed books, as POD advocates often claim. I've seen a lot of POD books, some put out by very reputable independent publishers, and they just look...cheaper, somehow. Really, POD is a glorified Xerox process and you can tell the difference.

Victoria: The people giving new writers a chance are the same ones who've always been giving them a chance: commercial publishers who can edit, design, and market their books, and are willing to invest financially in their product. A common myth is that it's harder for new writers to break in now than it used to be much is made of the fact that of the 100,000 (or whatever) manuscripts in circulation at any given time, only a tiny fraction ever find publication, but the truth of the matter is that most people who write a book don't write a publishable one, and of those 100,000 manuscripts, only 10% even approach publishability. If you HAVE written a marketable book you aren't in competition with every other writer out there, just with that more-or-less publishable 10%. The odds aren't what you think they are. It's no harder for new writers to break in than it ever was; what's hard these days is for an established writer to sustain a career.

Victoria: A new writer is an unknown quantity -- which means his book could fail--or that it could be a big success. A writer with several books under her belt may have a steady audience, but her sales numbers may not be increasing as much as the publisher would like or her sales numbers may be falling a little with each book. In this situation, the publisher will often see the new writer as a better bet than the established writer, who has been given several chances but still hasn't found big success and may decide to buy the new writer's book in preference to the established writer's. An established writer who isn't a big seller has to prove herself afresh with each book. It didn't use to be that way once you got published, you usually were able to continue publishing, even if you didn't do that well, because publishers weren't so obssessed with profit and the bottom line. That's not true anymore. It's a very insecure profession.

Victoria: It means "vanity published." There really is no such thing anymore as a subsidy publisher, in the sense of a publisher that contributes something of value to match the writer's financial investment, most publishers that call themselves "subsidy" publishers are trying to put a nicer label on vanity publishing.

Victoria: That's absolutely correct. Publishers ARE looking for good writing. You have to remember that "good" can mean many things: it can mean literarily brilliant, or it can mean something that the publisher thinks a zillion people will buy. If you've written something the publisher thinks it can market, it will take a chance on a first novel. An interesting exercise is to spend some time going through the reviews in a magazine like Publishers Weekly. I think a lot of people might be surprised to discover how many of the books reviewed are debut novels.

Victoria: If you want to sell fiction to a large publishing house, an agent is essential, in my opinion. More and more imprints of large publishers are closed to unagented writers and those that do claim to read unagented manuscripts give them very low priority. In fact I think that publishers like Tor, which is one of a dwindling number of science fiction/fantasy imprints that will consider unagented work actually do writers a disservice by continuing to accept unagented work, because they simply don't give it the attention they give the agented work. So for the large houses, an agent can not only get your manuscript directly onto the desk of an editor (as opposed to the harassed assistant or inexperienced intern who'll be reading if you've submitted unagented)...she can also usually get you a better advance and better contract terms. There are also, of course, many good independent publishers, that are very willing to accept unagented work and give it real attention. So if you're approaching independents, an agent isn't necessary while you're submitting. If you were to get a contract offer, though, you'd want to get qualified advice before signing it.

Victoria: There are a number of things I suggest in an article on my website called "The Safest Way to Search for an Agent." Buy a good print market guide, such as Jeff Herman's book. I don't recommend you start your search on the Internet, because you're too likely to run into outfits like CLA, which advertise online. Also make a list of books you think are similar to yours, and try and find out who agents them. This can be as easy as looking in the Acknowledgment section of the book, where many writers mention their agents or doing a websearch on the author--sometimes an article or news item will mention the agent. You should also read industry publications like Publishers Weekly, which talk about agents and the sales they make. If you write genre fiction, there may be a magazine (like Locus for science fiction/fantasy) that talks about who's selling what to whom. What you're looking for is an agent who is interested in the type of stuff you write and who has a verifiable track record of selling books to commercial publishers. For more detail on all this, as well as some suggestions about query letters, do check out my article.

Jan: Also, if an agent pops up in your email box soliciting you...that is really not usually a good thing.

Victoria: Right.

Jan: Okay...I want to talk a moment about editors...hiring an editor to help you with your book...can it be done safely? Is it ever a good idea?

Victoria: I don't feel there are many situations in which it makes sense to hire an editor, if your goal is commercial publication. Self-editing is an essential part of the writer's craft. and if you're serious about a writing career, it's something you absolutely must master. You can't rely on someone else to "fix" your work. An outside opinion is essential, since writers are rarely objective about their own work but you don't have to pay for it. Writers' groups, critique circles, a sympathetic beta reader--all these can provide the input you need, for free. Of course, sometimes writers don't have access to those kinds of resources, or you may be self-publishing, and want to hire someone to give your work a final promise and in those cases you might want to think about hiring an editor. It CAN be done safely, if you are careful. On the Book Doctors page of the Writer Beware website there's a series of tips for vetting a freelance editor, as well as a longer discussion of the pros and cons of paid editing and links to helpful resources.

Victoria: There aren't really any standardized definitions for these kinds of terms. Freelance editors may provide critiques as well as more in-depth editing. In general, I'd say that a critique would be a written discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of your manuscript, while an edit would be working with the manuscript itself, either providing suggestions for specific changes and improvements or line editing, which is working to improve your sentence structure and narrative flow. A critique probably costs a few hundred dollars, whereas a line or content edit by a qualified professional can cost several thousand dollars. Good editing is not cheap.

Victoria: There's a HUGE number of unqualified editors out there. This is one reason why, if you have hired an editor, you should never mention that in a query letter. There are so many unqualified editors that the agent or publisher will not be impressed by a "professionally edited" manuscript.

Victoria: All of the above said, there are many highly qualified and competent independent editors, but they cost a bundle, and even the best edit can't guarantee that your manuscript will become more publishable.

Victoria: I've never used a paid editor, nor have any of the writers I know. A friend of mine did an impromptu survey of around 100 published science fiction/fantasy writers and not one had ever hired an editor. It's a common writer's myth that "established" writers frequently hire paid editors but, at least for fiction, this really is not true.

Jan: Yeah, honestly I don't know published children's writers who have done it either...other than maybe paying for a critique at a conference early on or getting critiques as part of writing courses and workshops.

Victoria: No, not at all. With self-publishing, the writer is like a contractor, he puts all aspects of the job out to bid--design, cover art, formatting, printing and binding and coordinates different service providers to produce the final product. With vanity publishing, the writer pays for a pre-set package of services. There may be some flexibility with design and formatting, but basically he's paying someone else to do it all. Not only can self-publishing be more cost-effective than vanity publishing (since vanity publishers build overhead and profit into the price), it can result in a much higher-quality product. But it's a lot more work. One more thing -- Some POD-based services, like iUniverse, describe themselves as "self-publishing" services, but this is somewhat misleading, since the service they provide is more similar to the packages provided by vanity publishers. Hence the confusion between "self-publishing" and "vanity publishing".

Jan: Wow, well, you've given us a ton to think about tonight. And I have to thank you so much for coming to be with us.

Victoria: Thank you! I'll be glad to answer other questions via direct email, if anyone wants to contact me. My email address is beware@sfwa.org

Jan: Once again, thank you...and I'm sure you'll be getting those emails.

Victoria: Thanks. Good night.