Jan Fields is moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan Fields: I wanted to welcome Verla Kay, one of my very favorite folks, to the Writer's Retreat for the next three days while we chat about historical fiction in picture books. I have a couple of Verla's books and they're quite brilliant. Who would have thought you could find quality historical fiction in rhyme? And yet Verla's done it. Thanks so much for coming.

Belle: Welcome, Ms. Verla! Thanks for taking the time to come! Historical novels are my favourite genre!

Verla Kay: I love reading historical books, too, Belle... along with many other genres. Non-fiction, regency romances, sci-fi, and mysteries are some of my other favorite books to read. I almost never go to bed without a book in my hands.

ecm: Here are a few questions that I have: Do you sometimes visit the locales where the story (or a key event in the story) takes place? What advice can you offer for visitation research and/or live interviews with source experts?

Verla Kay: Whenever possible I try to visit the actual physical location of my books. Sometimes, though, that's just not possible and then I have to rely on books, photographs, the internet and any other sources I can come up with for my research to make sure what I'm writing is not only accurate, but also accurate for the TIME PERIOD I'm writing about.

Verla Kay: I do everything I can to immerse myself in the time period and learn all I can about it before I finish writing each book. For instance, when I was writing my "Orphan Train" book, I joined the Orphan Train Riders Association. It allowed me to get ahold of the granddaughter of an actual orphan train rider and hear her family's story "in person" over the phone. I took copious notes while she told me her family's story and wrote down everything she said that was pertinent to the story I wanted to write.

Verla Kay: When I got done with that interview, I had a much better idea of what these children went through, how they felt, etc. and was able to write what I honestly believe is one of my most moving books in a mere 7 months! That's VERY fast writing for me. All the rest of my books have each taken between 2 and 11 years to write.

Verla Kay: I also rely on personal experience whenever possible in my books. Since I've had whooping cough (as an adult) I know what that disease is like first hand and I put it into my pony express book. My editor made me change it to a mining disaster that killed off one of the children during the copy editing process of creating that book, because she felt whooping cough wasn't a good enough reason for Prudence to send a telegram to her brother, Thomas. (If she had ever HAD whooping cough for 7 months straight like I did, she would have felt it definitely warranted a telegram, but I don't argue with my editor.)

Verla Kay: At the beginning of my "Orphan Train" book, I needed to kill off the parents to make the children's orphans. I did quite a bit of research, looking for a disease that would kill the parents, but leave the children safely behind. When I found that typhoid fever was prevalent in that time period, I was thrilled, because my whole family had a form of typhoid fever in the early 1970's so I know from personal experience what that disease feels like when you have it. I also know that children don't get nearly as sick as adults who have this disease, so this was a perfect choice for me to kill off the parents at the beginning of my story. (But I do NOT recommend racing right out and catching whooping cough or typhoid fever for research purposes!)

Verla Kay: All I had to do then, was create some perfect verses around that disease. So here's the beginning verses of "Orphan Train."
Horses clip-clop, Streets unclean.
Typhoid fever,
Quarantine!

Parents coughing,
Shaking chill.
Stomachs aching,
Deathly ill.

Harold, David,
Frightened eyes.
Lucy rocking,
Lullabies.

Orphans begging
On the street.
Threadbare clothing,
Filthy feet.

Verla Kay: Whenever you interview someone, whether it's in person or over the phone or via email, make sure you document and write down everything you can remember AT THE TIME OF THE INTERVIEW. With many of my books it's been ten or more years after I did my research before the book was being questioned by a copy editor who wanted to verify some of my facts. By writing down the information when it's fresh in my memory, I can go back to my research files and come up with the answers to the copy editor's questions and KNOW that my facts are correct.

Verla Kay: When I visit places in person, I take many photos. That helps to keep the terrain, flora, fauna, buildings, and other "facts" fresh in my mind. When possible, I love to visit "living museums" -- replica or actual old towns that are kept "as they were" in the olden days so people can "feel" the atmosphere of those times. When you actually walk on a wooden sidewalk, and sit in a preserved tavern from the 1800's, you get a much better "feel" for how your characters lived in those days and your story will be richer, fuller, and more accurate because of it.

Verla Kay: And of course, YOUR portion of those trips are all deductible on your taxes. (You can't deduct your entire family's vacation costs, but you can deduct YOUR part of the trip costs that relate directly to your research. Talk to your tax man about what can and can't be deducted.) These trips are, after all, research for your books!

Jan Fields: About how long do you spend researching before you can launch into actual writing of your book?

Verla Kay: There's no set amount of time, Jan, but I do research the entire time I'm writing each story. I like to have research books around me all the time, so I can continually dip into them as I'm writing. And there's so much research to make sure stories are accurate.

Verla Kay: For the first book I sold, I didn't do nearly enough research ahead of time and during the six years that book was under contract before it was published, I spent many, many hours researching and changing facts and verses! In actual fact, three years into the publishing journey (after the book had sold) I ended up almost totally rewriting the book. There were that many minute errors in my facts in it.

Verla Kay: Everything, from the major dates and events in history to the smallest detail (what flowers grew wild in that area at that time in history?) needs to be correct and accurate. In that first book, "Covered Wagons, Bumpy Trails," I originally had the pioneers coming over the hills in their covered wagons to "daffodil hill." Imagine my chagrin when I discovered the daffodils on that hill were planted BY the pioneers. So naturally they would not have been there when they first came into California.

Verla Kay: Feeling very smart, I changed them to violets. Yeah. Except then I realized through further research that the pioneers came into California in the fall in September - NOT in the spring. So violets wouldn't have been blooming then, either. Having lived in California for much of my life, I put on my thinking cap and realized that California poppies grow wild and are often blooming in September. So in my published book the pioneers come over the hills to:
Moving forward,
End of trail.
Meadows, poppies,
Soft brown quail.

Verla Kay: No fact is too small to get right for children's stories, in my opinion. Children will believe what they read in books and often they will carry those beliefs throughout their lives. It's very important to me to make sure that what they read in my stories will be as accurate as it can possibly be.

mmmgood: Ms. Kay, what types of research materials do believe to be acceptable, and how do you go about noting your references? Or perhaps I am way off in my thinking, and fiction would not require references.

Verla Kay: I do most of my research through books and accredited website sources. That means I don't believe what I see on the web (since ANYONE can post ANYTHING on a website and make it look believable!) unless it's a museum, college, library, or other official website.

Verla Kay: For instance, I went to official weather websites to research hurricanes after I wrote my Tattered Sails book to make sure the hurricane I had in the book could have really taken place. When I researched ships that carried families in the 1600's, I found a site with manifests of the names and ages of actual people who sailed in that century. I was astounded to find there was a ship, the James, that carried a family - the Farmans - who sailed from London to Boston in July of 1635. They had three children - named Thomas, Mary, and Ralph - almost identical to the Thomas, Mary Jane, and Edward of my fictional family! And imagine my surprise to discover a documented hurricane hit Boston the same week my fictional family would have been sailing into that harbor in that year!

Verla Kay: Sometimes, truth IS stranger than fiction, for sure.

Verla Kay: I'm very careful to document all the main facts in my stories, and most of my books have bibliographies, although most of them aren't in the books. My editor sees them, though, and I'm sure they are passed on to the copy editors who work on my books.

Verla Kay: Most people would be astounded at the huge files of research material I have collected for each of my "little" picture books!

Verla Kay: Something I found helpful is to always COPY the title page of a book, the copyright page, and any really important pages containing the material I am using for my research. (It's not breaking copyright laws if you only use the copied pages for your own research purposes and don't share it with anyone else.) I also copy website pages that have important information on them - besides bookmarking them. They might disappear tomorrow and unless I copied the material while it was on line, it might be gone or unavailable to find again later.

Verla Kay: And since most of my books have taken four or more years to get published, by the time the copy editor is asking me questions about my research, ten or more years might have gone by since I originally found that material. It's really hard to remember where you found something that long ago unless you have a copy of it printed out in your research file for that book.

Jan Fields: How much interest has your PUBLISHER shown in your depth of research? I know you research carefully because it's important to YOU to get it right. And I know educational publishers can be really strict about research, but you work mostly with commercial publishers. Do you find they tend to trust your research or are they fact checking you? I think folks tend to think the publisher will catch it if they make a mistake -- do you find that is true?

Verla Kay: My publishers do fact check my books through the copy editors, but the bulk of the research is definitely held up on my end. I would never rely on my publisher to make sure the facts are correct in my stories - that's my job. My name is going to be on that book when it's published, therefore it's up to me to make sure it's as accurate as it can possibly be.

Verla Kay: I'm thrilled when my publisher finds a fact "wrong" when we are in the pre-publishing stages of my books, because that means I have a chance to research that fact and get it right before the book goes to print. But I never rely on the publisher to do that for me. After all, it's my reputation as a writer that's on the line with books that have my name on them. It's important to me that when people pick up one of my books from a bookstore or their library that they "know" they're getting a historically accurate rendering of the time period and events surrounding that story.

Cat: First off, I want to thank you so much for coming here, Verla Kay. It's fabulous getting your input. Second, I was wondering what you do when you feel overwhelmed with the sheer amount of ideas that can occur? Usually, I have way too many ideas in my head, so sometimes when I go to write my mind is scattered over several different stories and I have a real problem keeping my focus. What do you recommend?

Verla Kay: Write them down!

Verla Kay: Write down the story idea, and if a few lines or verses or a chapter is demanding to be written, write those down, too. Then put the idea and any sample chapters, words, or phrases stapled together into an idea file. Your idea and samples of where you want to take it are safe. You can let them go out of your mind and concentrate on the story you are currently writing.

Verla Kay: If an idea won't let go of you even after you've done this, then maybe that's the idea you should be currently writing. If that's the case, try putting your current WIP (Work In Progress) into the idea file and start working on the new idea.

Verla Kay: Just be careful that don't keep starting new projects and never finish any stories. Do not allow yourself to do this switch more than ONE time. If you feel you have to switch stories again, you MUST go back to that first story and work on it. Don't allow yourself to switch again until one of those two stories is DONE. That will keep you productive and assure you of finishing one of your stories.

Verla Kay: My good writer friend, Linda Joy Singleton, writes series novels and she repeatedly tells me how tough the middles of her stories are. She always feels like she's writing horribly by the middle of the story. Nothing is working, everything is bad. She calls it "muddling through middles." At that point, she gives herself permission to write garbage! She just keeps writing, even if what she's writing feels worthless. When she finally reaches the end of the story, she goes back to "fix" the middle, and she usually discovers most of it is actually pretty darned good! It wasn't nearly as bad as it felt at the time.

Verla Kay: So write down all those wonderful ideas to get them out of your head, then write until you get to The End of your story. At that point, you can look over your idea file and pull out the story (or stories that might be combined to make an even better story) that you feel the most excited about. That's the story you want to work on next.

Yaya: Do you have a favorite subject about which you would prefer writing?

Verla Kay: It seems my favorite subjects to write about are whatever I happen to be working on at the moment. I really love history, because as a child I HATED history. I thought it was totally boring. It wasn't until I was an adult that I discovered all the interesting and captivating stories behind the boring history facts I'd learned in school. That's when I got the idea to make history fun for young children. My goal is for my books to open history to them in a way that will make it interesting to them before they grow up -- so they will want to learn more about it while they are still young. There are so many interesting stories to be told. They are just waiting for the right person to come along and turn them into a form that kids will love to read. I'm glad to be able to be a small part of that.

Yaya: I felt the same way 'bout history; hated it. I think that when we were growing up, the emphasis was on facts that could as easily have been gleaned in the learning process. I've noticed that The Story Behind the Story, so to speak, has become more important in recent years. As a result, in my opinion, more people love learning about history. In researching your stories, it seems to me that you have done that; given the reader a Hook that draws them in. Once the reader is hooked, the rest will be learned through a natural process of interest and intrigue.

Verla Kay: Right. And because my stories are so very short, they don't convey all of the information about a time period or topic. They are meant to create an interest in a topic, so the reader will want to go on and delve into more comprehensive books to get more facts and learn more about that time period or event in history. I consider my books to be "kick-starters" for a subject.

Yaya: I'm really anxious to know how you prepare to start writing. Do you have some kind of meditation or quiet time before actually setting words to paper? Thank you.

Verla Kay: I pretty much write wherever I am. Because my verses are so short, I can jot them down on anything, anywhere, and I often do. I'm always thinking of a story while I'm working on it, and if a few good lines pop into my head, I immediately write them down so I don't forget them. (It's really tough to write them on toilet paper with a pencil when you are still dripping from the shower, though. And I swear that's when I get my best lines - while I'm showering!) But I don't stop and meditate or anything before writing. I just "do it."

Yaya: Do you concentrate on one project at a time or do you dabble in many projects together?

Verla Kay: Since my little rhyming books have each taken between 7 months and 11 years to complete, I'm usually working on three of them at a time. Right now, though, I'm working on a non-fiction history book for young adults that is taking all of my creative energies. It's my father's WWII POW story and I'm using diaries, memoirs, photographs, letters, telegrams, and a limited edition book that was published by and for and only distributed to the airmen who were prisoners of war in Stalag Luft prison camp in Barth, Germany. He was a P-38 fighter pilot and I have his diaries detailing what it felt like to be in his first dogfight in the air, etc. It's a fascinating story and I think it would bring to life to high school students what it felt like to be a young fighter pilot in WWII.

Yaya: I know you are writing your daddy's memoirs in the form of a young adult or middle grade book. Have you ever attempted to write other stories that were longer than the picture book size?

Verla Kay: Yes, I have. "Rough, Tough Charley" was written multiple times. First I wrote it a as a prose picture book, which I was told wouldn't work because the subject matter was too adult for that age, so I rewrote it as an easy reader. Unfortunately, the language was too complex for that level of reading, so I rewrote it yet again for mid-graders as a 4000 word non-fiction simple chapter book.

Verla Kay: That book sold and I waited for five years for it to be published. The week it was going to print, the company cancelled it because they were being bought out by another publisher. I rewrote it yet again as a picture book, this time in my cryptic rhyming style and it immediately sold to Tricycle Press, who published it a year and a half later. Because of all the different versions of it, that book took 11 years to finish writing!

Verla Kay: Also, I've written a young adult novel which my agent says isn't good enough to send out so it's still sitting in my computer. Waiting for inspiration and revision ideas.

Yaya: What is the average word-length of your picture books? If I remember correctly, they mostly run about 32 pages, but I was just curious about the word-length.

Verla Kay: All of my picture books are 32 pages long and the rhymes in them are between 150 and 350 words long. My longest book is "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?" with just under 300 words of rhyming text, plus over 250 words of prose in the letters between a brother and sister shown in the artwork in the book, and then the author's note and time line at the back is about 500 more words. Those are meant to be read after the story. They give a more comprehensive look at how and why the pony express was created, what caused it to be stopped and when important events surrounding mail service happened.

Yaya: Do you set out to choose a subject first or, does your idea just take hold by way of a rhyme popping into your head?

Verla Kay: Sometimes I am intrigued by a subject, other times a rhyme will pop into my head that demands a book written around it. But most of the time it's the subject first and the rhymes afterwards.

Verla Kay: In the case of Iron Horses, I actually wrote most of the story in prose, because I couldn't GET the rhymes to work. I'd written over 150 rhymes, but I had no STORY. Then when I got the prose story going really well, I stopped and realized, "Hey! I have a verse that says this. And one that says that and that and even THAT. I CAN write this story in verse." I finished the story in rhymes, adding extra verses to fill in the blank spots in the story.

Verla Kay: When I got done, I went back (as I always do) to make sure the main character of the story showed up at regular intervals in the story. That's when I realized there was no main character in the story - aside from the train. I'd written NON-FICTION.

Verla Kay: And I fainted. (Well, not actually, but I certainly felt like fainting. I was totally shocked!) I had no idea I was writing non-fiction. I was just crafting a good story that told about that period in history. What an eye-opener that was for me. That's when I realized even non-fiction could be told to kids in a way that is interesting.

yaya: Forgive my lack of understanding, but aren't prose and rhyme the same? How do they differ? Another question I have is about the non-fiction writing. I was under the impression that pretty-much all of your work was very nearly the same as non-fiction, since there is so much truth in it; so much history.

Verla Kay: A story in prose is written in sentences, like this message. There can be rhythm to it, but it doesn't rhyme.

Verla Kay: Many of my books are treated as non-fiction, because they do show a slice of true history in them, but technically, they are all (except "Iron Horses" and "Rough, Tough Charley") historical fiction because they have characters in them that are fiction. Even though the characters talk and act and dress and behave correctly for the time period, they didn't actually exist, so the books aren't true non-fiction books, which have NOTHING in them that isn't historically accurate and true.

Yaya: Oh, I see. So, you can actually intersperse the rhyme with the prose? Thank you for that explanation.

Verla Kay: In "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?" the prose is totally separate from the rhymes. It's shown ONLY in the artwork, where the text of the story is printed as usual on the pages of the book. It's a unique format, and I'm very proud of how it turned out. Normally, it's not a good idea to mix prose and poetry... but in some cases (like in this book) it works really well.

Verla Kay: Just for fun, here's the first letter between Prudence and her brother, Thomas - who is reading her letter in the artwork, and the text of the rhyming story on the same page:

Verla Kay: May, 1851, Plymouth Township, Pennsylvania
My Dearest Brother Thomas,
Henry Snodgrass and me got hitched up Sunday last. The weddin was real purty. You were sorely missed.
Love, Prudence

Thomas mumbles,
Grumbles, "Late!
This is old news,
Out of date."

Yaya: Oh, I see. This makes it very clear. I absolutely love and admire the fact that you keep your stories accurate for young minds. Little ones are so impressionable that enough cannot be said for how important that concept is. I just want to thank you, on behalf of all children, for writing with an eye to truth.

Verla Kay: Thank you. I try very hard to do enough research so that I'm sure of my facts before they go to print. I feel it's very important, too.

Yaya: Do you ever think in numbers when you are telling a story? I don't mean the obvious, is the rhythm correct. Rather, do numbers infiltrate your creative muse?

Verla Kay: Only to the extent that I watch to see if the number 3 recurs in my stories. That old rule of thumb, "good things come in threes" is a very good one for picture books.

Verla Kay: No more than three main characters in the story.
The main character should try three times to solve his problem.
Success shouldn't happen until the main character's third try.

Verla Kay: This "rule of threes" has been around for a long time. You can see it in some of the old classics, like The Three Little Pigs, The Three Billy Goats Gruff, etc. Using the rule of threes can help your story arc to a good conclusion without it being too long for the picture book audience.

Yaya: Oh, Cool Beans! I have never heard that. It makes absolute sense, though, doesn't it? What a profound rule to follow in writing your stories. I think you may have just advanced my understanding far more than you realize. Thank you so much.

Verla Kay: I felt just like you do when I first heard about the "rule of threes," Yaya. It really helped the execution of my stories, too.

Cat: I was wondering, I'm sure there are times when you get overwhelmed by the cares of the world and work and household chores, etc. What do you do when your schedule feels overbooked, and you don't have the time to write? I work four days a week, Tuesday through Fridays, from about 7:15am to 6pm or 6:30, and by the time I've finished dinner and dones my exercises it's usually about 8:30 or so. During my weekends I try to get my assignments for ICL done, and right now I'm working on illustrations for a friend of mine, which is of fair importance, so my weekends fly by pretty fast. How do you keep a handle on writing? I feel like I have no time, and it's SO frustrating!

Verla Kay: Trust me, there are NEVER enough hours in the day for writing - unless you MAKE the time to write. I found it easier to write when I was doing full-time daycare with six toddlers and babies underfoot every weekday from 6AM to 6PM than I did when I was finally "retired" from working outside the home and had all day to do whatever I wanted.

Verla Kay: The reason? I had to PLAN my days and writing time when I was working full-time. Once my days were free, they seemed to fritter away with nothing getting accomplished.

Verla Kay: I still have that problem and I will probably have to fight to force myself to schedule my time forever. I'm just not a "scheduled" kind of person! I like to do things on the spur of the moment, and I don't get up at a regular time, go to bed at a regular time, or eat any meals at regular times. Some days I get up at 11 AM, most days I'm up by 7 AM and sometimes I'm up at 3 or 4 in the morning. There are days when I eat breakfast at 6 AM and others when I don't eat breakfast until 3 or 4 in the afternoon. (My diabetes doctor hates me - and rightly so.) I don't think I'll ever change though... I'm happiest not being on a schedule.

Verla Kay: And my writing schedule is just as erratic! But it works for me, and that's what matters in the long run. Each of us has to find what WORKS with our schedules, and our lifestyles. The thing to remember is that you will ALWAYS make the time for those things that are the most important to you - even if you have to give up your most favorite television program, or an hour of sleep every day in order to get that time for what you really want to do.

Verla Kay: It all boils down to how important your writing really is in your life. You can make time for it if you are determined enough.

mmmgood: Do you have any suggestions for testing to be sure the rhythm of a piece is flawless? I've found that I can keep a perfect cadence on a piece I've written myself, where some spots may trip up a writer who is critiquing the piece for me.

Verla Kay: Rhythm is a tough one for some people, for others, it comes naturally. If you have a natural bent for rhythm, that's great! If you don't, then you will have to work harder to get your stories flawlessly rhythmic. But it can be done. Here's what I do with mine.

Verla Kay: First I actually count the beats in my lines and compare the verses with each other. Are they the same? If not, why? Where does the emphasis on each word and line fall? Do the "beats" match the rhythm of each verse? If not, how can it be rephrased so everything "fits" correctly?

Verla Kay: Here's some examples of the above:

Verla Kay: What is the beat? The rhythm?

Verla Kay: *Mar-y *had a *lit-tle *lamb,
Its *fleece was *white as *snow,
And *eve-ry *where that *Mar-y *went,
The *lamb was *sure to *go.

Verla Kay: *DA da *DA da *DA da *DA
da *DA da *DA da *DA
da *DA da *DA da *DA da *DA
da *DA da *DA da *DA

Verla Kay: If you break the natural rhythm of the story, it throws the reader out of the story and makes him aware of you, the author - something that is deadly to most stories.

Verla Kay: Listen to what happens when this smooth rhythm is thrown out of "whack."

Verla Kay: Mary had a little lamb,
Her lamb had wool that was white as snow,
And everywhere that Mary went,
The lamb followed her and would also go.

Verla Kay: Rhythm is a tough one for some people, for others, it comes naturally. If you have a natural bent for rhythm, that's great! If you don't, then you will have to work harder to get your stories flawlessly rhythmic. But it can be done. Here's what I do with mine.

Verla Kay: First I actually count the beats in my lines and compare the verses with each other. Are they the same? If not, why? Where does the emphasis on each word and line fall? Do the "beats" match the rhythm of each verse? If not, how can it be rephrased so everything "fits" correctly?

Verla Kay: Here's some examples of the above:

Verla Kay: What is the beat? The rhythm?

Verla Kay: *Mar-y *had a *lit-tle *lamb,
With *fleece that was *white as *snow,
And *eve-ry *where that *Mar-y *went,
The *lit-tle *lamb would de*cide to *go, *too.

Verla Kay: As a general rule, never use an unimportant word (or syllable) like "or," "and," or "the" where the natural accented word or syllable would be in a story's rhythm.

Verla Kay: What makes rhyme good?

Verla Kay: It's almost invisible to the story.
It enhances the story, it doesn't "carry" it.
It flows with a steady beat.
The rhythm never jars the reader out of the story.
It feels effortless, natural.

Verla Kay: What is "forced" rhyme?

Verla Kay: When words are manipulated into an unnatural order, rhythm, or accent, "just to make the story rhyme," then it will feel forced.

Verla Kay: Examples of forced rhyme:

Verla Kay: Unnatural Order:

Verla Kay: Joe, a tree climbed up. (Words have been "tweaked" in order to get the necessary rhyming word in the correct place on the line. This is a big no-no.)

Verla Kay: Rhythm is off:

Verla Kay: *Mar-y *had a *lit-tle *lamb,
Her *lamb had *wool that was *white as *snow,
And *eve-ry *where that *Ma-ry *went,
The *lamb *followed *her and would *al-so *go.

Verla Kay: Unnatural accent:

Verla Kay: If you *always do what *seems just right
But *no one seems to *care,
Then *jump around and *scream and *yell,
Call*ing with *all your *might.

Verla Kay: NOTE: (Change the first word in this last line to "And call" to fix it.)

Verla Kay: NOTE! While these "rules" are good guidelines, remember, there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule and once in a while a verse or line or word will work that doesn't "fit" the rules, so don't be afraid to experiment sometimes!

Verla Kay: These examples should give you a good idea of why having the rhythm "just right" is so important in a story. But what if you can't tell if it's right or not? What if you truly can't "hear" it, or you just aren't sure? It's very easy for you to read a line so it sounds right, because you know how it should sound. But someone unfamiliar with the story might not be able to read it correctly unless they "practice" it... and you don't want an editor or agent reading it wrong!

Verla Kay: That's when a second reader is invaluable. Get someone who has never seen or heard your story before to read it OUT LOUD to you. Sit with a pencil and a copy of the manuscript in your hand and underline or circle every word or syllable that the reader stumbles over or that seems awkward or isn't smooth. Those are the words and phrases that you need to fix.

Verla Kay: Once you have gotten those so they are all perfect, have another person who has never seen or heard the story do the same thing. And again, sit with your pencil and copy of the story and mark any rough spots, then make the changes necessary.

Verla Kay: When you have three readers that have never seen the story who can read it flawlessly from start to finish, then you know your rhythm is right in the story.

Verla Kay: Something else to remember is that some words are TOUGH to put into stories, because they can be read differently by different people. In my Tattered Sails book I used the word tools. But it can be read as one or two syllables, depending on the reader, which can throw the entire rhythm off. I wanted to have one verse read:

Verla Kay: Sacks of clothing,
Tools, stacked.
Livestock, baggage,
Loaded, packed.

Verla Kay: But tools could be read as one syllable (tules), OR two syllables (tu-als). I needed three syllables in that second line to keep perfect rhythm. What if people read that word wrong? The line would feel wrong! My solution in this case was to add another word to the beginning of that line, which "forced" the reader to read the word tools as a one syllable word. So the finished verse read like this:

Verla Kay: Sacks of clothing,
Work tools, stacked.
Livestock, baggage,
Loaded, packed.

Verla Kay: Sometimes to get a rhyming story to really "work" you will need to make major changes. You might have to throw out a favorite word or phrase (painful!) or even change an entire verse so it reads smoothly and correctly. At times you will even need to change the entire content of a verse to something entirely different in order to get your story to flow smoothly and still be accurate, historically. You might have to leave out one part of history and incorporate another fact in that place in order to get your story to work perfectly. But getting it right is well worth the sacrifice and the effort.

Verla Kay: This is just one reason why rhyming stories, and especially rhyming stories that depict accurate history are especially hard to create. The shortest I ever spent writing one of my short historical rhyming history books was 7 months. The longest I've spent on one was 11 years. (And these are all books under 350 words long!)

Verla Kay: Your goal is to write a really engaging story that is filled with fun words, perfect rhythm and rhyme and that accurately depicts a time period in history. It's a big challenge, but it can be done if you work hard enough, and long enough at it.

Verla Kay: To end, here are a couple of my favorite verses that I feel are excellent examples of how to tell accurate history in an interesting, engaging manner using short rhymes from my newest book, "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?"

Verla Kay: Letters, papers,
"Must get through."
Lonely outpost,
Rendezvous.

Verla Kay: Stationmaster,
Midnight sky.
Changing horses,
"On the fly."

mmmgood: This is where I have run into some problems. Some people seem to have an ear for rhythm, and some simply don't. Sometimes I can ask 4 or 5 people to read one of my pieces outloud, with widely varying results. For instance, three may read it flawlessly, one may stumble in one or two spots, and one may struggle greatly. Any suggestions? Also, what age group is the Pony Express book for?

Verla Kay: mmmgood, if three people can read it that have never seen it before without stumbling over any words, I'd say it's probably fine. As you said, some people can't read rhyming stories well no matter how good they rhyme and those people won't ever be able to read a rhyming story well, so concentrate on the ones that CAN read rhymes well normally. If THEY stumble over words, then you know there's something wrong that needs to be fixed.

Verla Kay: "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?" is for the same age group as all the rest of my rhyming historical books - officially ages 4 to 8. But in reality, children as young as two have loved my books and they are using them in many schools from Kindergarten through 6th grade. (And quite a few people have emailed to tell me their college professors are also using my books in their classes - to teach tight rhymes and descriptive writing.) I'm always humbled and VERY grateful to know how well-received my books have been in the educational markets.

mmmgood, if three people can read it that have never seen it before without stumbling over any words, I'd say it's probably fine. As you said, some people can't read rhyming stories well no matter how good they rhyme and those people won't ever be able to read a rhyming story well, so concentrate on the ones that CAN read rhymes well normally. If THEY stumble over words, then you know there's something wrong that needs to be fixed.

Verla Kay: "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?" is for the same age group as all the rest of my rhyming historical books - officially ages 4 to 8. But in reality, children as young as two have loved my books and they are using them in many schools from Kindergarten through 6th grade. (And quite a few people have emailed to tell me their college professors are also using my books in their classes - to teach tight rhymes and descriptive writing.) I'm always humbled and VERY grateful to know how well-received my books have been in the educational markets.

ColoradoKate: Your message board for children's writers and illustrators - http://www.verlakay.com/boards/index.php - has become a phenomenon, as a meeting place and a source of information and education for all of us. I don't have a question; I just wanted to say, "Thanks you!"

Verla Kay: I'm so pleased to know my message board has been helpful to you, Kate. I spend a lot of time on it, keeping up with all the messages, making sure there's nothing adverse happening, and helping the other Administrators and Moderators with any problems they come up with on the board on a daily basis. It does take a lot of time, but I feel it's time well spent, as it's one of the ways I "pay it back" for all of the assistance I have gotten through the years from other established writers.

ColoradoKate: We're often cautioned against writing (or subbing, anyhow) rhyming picture books, and sometimes the reason given is that editors are just so sick of wading through all the subs with near- and non-rhymes, and with ragged or unpredictable meter. Yet you've succeeded, and with a unique sort of poetry to boot. What do you tell people who would like to try rhyme?

Verla Kay: I answered a question already with a detailed explanation of how to tell if your rhythm is right in your stories before you submit them. That did not cover rhyming, though, and that is just as important as the rhythm of a story if you want to send stories in verse to publishers. So I'll talk here about the rhymes and the content how important they are to historical rhyming stories.

Verla Kay: The first thing to remember is that it's the STORY that counts, not the rhymes. You can have the most fun, delightful rhymes in the world, but if they don't tell a good story, they most likely will never be published. Picture books are a very demanding way to write. Every single word in a picture book must be there for a reason. They all have to move the story forward or be important to the story or they can't be in it. You can NOT put a phrase or word into a story "just because it's the perfect rhyme" to another word.

Verla Kay: I highly recommend getting a rhyming dictionary. I personally love The Random House Rhyming Dictionary. It's pocket sized and has more than 30,000 rhymes in it. I have one on my desk, one in my purse, and one on the nightstand by my bed. No matter where I am, if inspiration strikes and I think of a partial verse or a good line or two, I have one close to me to see if there's a word that will rhyme and fit my story.

Verla Kay: One thing you need to learn that took me a long time to "get" is that if there is not a rhyming word that FITS your story that matches the line you have in your story that you are trying to rhyme, YOU CANNOT USE THAT LINE OR WORD IN YOUR STORY. No matter how long you look at that verse, if the words that rhyme don't belong in the story, you cannot use them!

Verla Kay: Remember, you have to first stay true to history. Then you have to write a story that is compelling and engaging and delightful and that will roll off the tongues of readers who will be reading it out loud. AND the rhymes and the rhythm have to perfect in the story, too. And make sense. And feel effortless when read.

Verla Kay: It's a tall order, and often takes years to get every single word "right" before a story is ready to submit. Don't be afraid to put it in a drawer for a few weeks or a month or even a year or two. When it comes out, you will be able to look at it with fresh eyes and see the glaring errors in the story line, the smoothness of the rhythm, or the rhymes that don't quite work.

Verla Kay: Stay away from near rhymes for the most part. They usually don't work and that's one the big offenders to many editors and agents. What is a near rhyme, you ask?

Verla Kay: Words that aren't perfect rhymes are near rhymes. Like trying to rhyme disappear and there, or flies and try. They are close, but not perfect rhymes. Your rhyming dictionary will let you know if a word is a perfect rhyme or not. If you are in doubt, look it up! Remember, too, that different people in different parts of the country pronounce some words differently, so something that's a perfect rhyme to you might not be to an editor in New York! Again, your rhyming dictionary will tell you if your words are rhymes or if you just think they are.

Verla Kay: When trying to match a perfect word for a verse in one of my stories, I sometimes work "backwards" with my rhyming dictionary. I'll scan through the listings of words looking for one that has two words that will "fit" the period and part of history that I'm trying to put into my story. When I find two words that rhyme that fit, I build my verse around those two words.

Verla Kay: For example, when I was writing my non-fiction biography, "Rough, Tough Charley," I searched through my rhyming dictionary and found the rhyming words, loot and shoot. "Aha!" I yelled. "The perfect rhymes for a verse telling about the time Charley was held up by the bandit, Sugarfoot." And they were the perfect words. That verse reads like this:

Bandit! Hold up!
Bullets shoot!
Bad man buried.
"Saved the loot."

Verla Kay: By finding two rhyming words that "worked" perfectly in the story I was trying to tell, and that fit the time period of history, I was able to write a verse that works seamlessly into the story with rhymes that flow perfectly when read aloud.

Londy: Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us the next few days and being willing to share your passion and expertise! I love your PB about the Pony Express. Did you feel daunted by the amount of literature people have written about it when you began (and progressed) with that project? How did you deal with that? How did you research for this particular manuscript?

Verla Kay: Yes, it was daunting - the amount of stories that have previously been written about the pony express - and that's the very reason it has taken so many years for me to get this one published. When I first finished it, it was rejected with the comment, "Too many other books on this subject in print." So I stuck it in a drawer and waited. Five years. Then one day, I realized in five more years it would be the 150th anniversary of the pony express. The perfect time for my book!

Verla Kay: So I called my agent and told her, and she called my editor and the editor immediately said, "Yes!" That was five years ago... and here is my pony express book, newly published and getting great reviews.

Verla Kay: I went to museums and checked out everything I could find on the Pony Express - including the Wells Fargo Museum in San Francisco. I searched the web and found photographs of mochila saddles they used for pony express riders, and any pictures I could find of pony express riders. I got permission to use a copy of an actual ad for pony express riders in the artwork. I found a little pony express rider's brass box that was used to carry either a map or matches or something small like that. I'm not sure what was actually carried in it, but I bought it at a flea market and have it to show at school visits!

Verla Kay: Books made up a huge portion of my research, too. I got ahold of any and every book I could find on the subject. When it was especially helpful, I searched ABEbooks.com and bought a copy for my library so I could refer back to it again and again. The entire time I wrote this book (5 years) I researched constantly, picking and choosing the facts I wanted in the book.

Verla Kay: There were so many facts I had to leave out! I put as many of those into the Author's Note as I could, but still the book itself contains only a tiny portion of what I learned. But none of the research was wasted, because even if it didn't actually make it into the book itself, those facts formed the basis of what I wrote in such a way that the book feels much richer, fuller, and more complete because of that "back knowledge." The more you know about your subject, the more complete your finished book will feel and you are much less apt to make a comment or statement in your book that will make a reader slam the book shut with the comment, "Oh, that's ridiculous! Anyone would know that couldn't have happened that way in that time period!"

Verla Kay: I don't believe you can do too much research. Just be careful that you are also WRITING while you are doing ongoing research. Once you have a lot of the basic facts in place, start your story. You can always go back and change the kinds of flowers, money, or other historical details later if you find in further research that something is not right in your story.

Verla Kay: When you finish your book, you should feel confident that you have the facts in your story as complete and accurate as you possibly can. If you are in doubt about anything at all when you are writing your story, insert a comment - in red - so that you won't forget to fact - check that information later. You will be glad you took the extra time and effort to get all your facts right when you see that book in print and KNOW that you did the best you could possibly do with it.

Yaya: Do you have a preference for when you write; morning or night?

Verla Kay: I especially like to write in the morning when I'm totally fresh, but I'll sit down any time of the day or night if I get inspired or feel a need to be creative. Some of my best writing has been when I'm on vacation or at writing conferences. The juices seem to flow best when I'm out and about.

mmmgood: Along those same lines, approximately how many hours per day do you spend writing?

Verla Kay: There's absolutely no set amount. I'm such a spastic writer! Some days I only write "in my head" and other times I'll write for hours and hours - sometimes into the wee hours of the morning. There's just no way I can stick to any schedule. All I can advise is that you find what works for YOU, whether it's daily, weekly, monthly or whenever you make a moment, and write when you can. If you are putting out SOMETHING every week, then you will make progress. If you work best with schedules, set a time and stick to it. If you are like me and can't stick to a schedule to save your life... then just make sure you get SOME progress every week and you will be fine.

Jan Fields: As a historical fiction picture book writer, you have to be a school's dream author. You mentioned having a little box that you found and hang onto to take to school visits as it connects with the Pony Express. How often does that happen? Do you collect a lot of things as you write with the idea in mind of sharing them with children eventually?

Verla Kay: I have one special item that relates to each of my books that I sometimes take to school visits. It depends on what topics the school wants covered whether or not I take and use them. If they want a session on "About the Author" that covers what it's like to conceive, research, and write books, then I don't usually show those items. But if they want a session on "Bringing History Alive," then those items are brought to show to kids.

Verla Kay: Some of the special things I've collected are:

Verla Kay: A replica of a Nez Perce "bag" that I had a native American make for me out of leather. It's embroidered with real dyed porcupine quills.

Verla Kay: The little brass box that has "Pony Express" imprinted right into the outside of the box.

Verla Kay: Replica Union and Confederate Civil War caps (for when my "Civil War, Drummer Boy" book is published in 2012).

Verla Kay: Real clay marbles I bought at Plimouth Village in Massachusetts when researching my upcoming 2011 "Hornbooks & Inkwells" book.

Verla Kay: A real railroad spike and a replica of "the golden spike" from the building of the transcontinental railroad for my book, "Iron Horses."

Verla Kay: Read gold nuggets taken directly from the ground, and some that are "smooth" from tumbling down rivers for my "Gold Fever" book.

Verla Kay: I love taking these things and showing them to kids at school visits. They really help to bring history to life for kids.

Verla Kay: And of course for 6th graders and under, I wear one of my handmade colonial outfits when I do school visits. The kids feel so special when I get dressed up for them. It definitely makes my visits more memorable for them. Here's some pictures of me in one of my costumes giving a gold panning demonstration to a small group of children in a library. http://www.verlakay.com/library.html

Yaya: Do you surround yourself with pieces of inspiration? For instance, I love dolls, so my office has many of them. I also like cute things, so I have little cutesy drawers, cabinets and shelves that are small enough to fit on my desk and still be useful. I once bought a painting because of the story I saw in it; that sort of thing. Hmmmm?

Verla Kay: I pretty much surround myself with books. I have many hundreds of them. There's a good-sized walk-in closet in the upstairs bedroom where I house my office and that closet is wall-to-wall, floor-to-ceiling books. Another large, metal shelving unit in the office itself is filled with books, as are two wall-mounted shelving units. This is where most of my writing books, all of my computer-related manuals, and a minimal amount of copies that are both out-of-print and in-stock of my own published books are kept. (The bulk of my out-of-print and "stock" books that I've purchased for future generations and against future out-of-print status are stored out in the garage on a very large metal shelving unit.)

Verla Kay: My bedroom has two bookcases filled to overflowing with paperbacks -- mostly regency romances and sci-fi books are stored there. In the upstairs hallway there's a large glass-enclosed bookcase that houses my "special" books. Autographed books by other authors, my hardback collection of Oz books, and other very special books that I especially treasure are in that bookcase. Downstairs we have turned a bedroom into a library, and there's a full wall bookcase, a half wall bookcase, and another smaller (paperback sized) bookcase in that room. This is where the bulk of my research books are stored, as well as many beloved classic books.

Verla Kay: I tend to read books over and over again when I love them, and I do love my books! As for the rest of my house? It's filled with "stuff." I'm definitely a collector of things, and since we are planning to sell our large house soon, I'm going to have to part with many of my possessions. I don't even want to THINK about it! [shudders!]

Yaya: I'm gonna' go out on a limb here and ask what you do when you are faced with writer's block. To be honest, though, I get the impression that you are more inclined to have more ideas than you can get transferred to paper than you are towards writer's block. Also, it seems that every idea I come up with triggers ten more ideas. Is that sort of the way you feel?

Verla Kay: Most of the time I have many more ideas than I can write, so I seldom have a problem with writer's block. Once in a while though, I do come up with a blank area in a story, where I just don't know where to go. When that happens, I sometimes put the story aside - for a week, or a year - for whatever amount of time it needs for me to get past my problem area.

Verla Kay: Most of the time, though, I just write a one line sentence and turn it bright red in my story, and then write the rest of the story. Example:

Verla Kay: My main character has lost her favorite teddy bear and doesn't know what to do. I'm not sure where she should look for it, so I write this as the next sentence in the story: Susie looks for her teddy bear, but can't find him. Then I continue on to the end of the story. By the time the story has ended, I usually have a good idea of what can happen in that missing segment of the story that will "fill in the gaps" and make Susie's story totally convincing and satisfying to readers.

Yaya: Do you lay out all of your books in storyboard form for your agent and/or your publishers?

Verla Kay: When I first started writing them, I would storyboard them to be sure they had enough illustration possibilities and that there wasn't too much text on any scene for the book. I don't find it necessary to do that anymore, because I've gotten really good at visualizing the entire book in my head. (I would NOT be able to do this with novel-length books!)

Verla Kay: However, I have NEVER sent a storyboard to an editor. They would not appreciate it from a writer. Only illustrators send these. Believe me, editors can visualize what a picture book will be like, without visual aids, or art notes, either! If your story can't be visualized without art notes you probably need to rethink and rewrite it. (Unless you are visualizing the artwork being exactly the opposite of what the text says, or it's absolutes imperative to the story that the main character is wearing a red cape or something very radical like that. In that case, it would be okay to mention that fact in the cover letter.

Verla Kay: It's almost NEVER okay to send art notes with your manuscript.) If your character needs to have a red cape (for instance for Little Red Riding Hood) then it's best to WRITE the color into the story in an extra verse, and then let your editor cut that verse out of the finished book once the illustrator knows how important that is.

Verla Kay: I like to have at least 16 definite, different scenes that an illustrator could draw in my books. That ensures that the illustrator will be able to make the book interesting and also that he or she will be able to pick and choose what scenes to draw. Having enough exciting, different illustration possibilities makes the book more publishable, too.

Verla Kay: For anyone who doesn't know what a storyboard is, it's basically breaking down your story to fit into a 32 page picture book. (The standard size for today's picture books.) When you decide which text goes on which pages, remember there will be "front matter" - the dedication, title and copyright pages, as well as "back matter" - end pages, author's notes, sometimes the copyright page is back here, so your "usable" pages for your text will most likely be 28 pages and most of those might end up being one picture on a double page spread. So you need to plan your text accordingly.

Verla Kay: For a visual example of a dummy or storyboard for a picture book check out "Writing with Pictures" by Uri Shulevitz at your local library. (It's expensive to buy.) It's a great book for both illustrators and writers of picture books and in it you will be able to "see" how a picture book dummy works.

Yaya: Have you always thought in rhyme or is that something that you really have to work at?

Verla Kay: Rhyming has always come very naturally to me. I have a whole notebook of poems I wrote in my teens. Most of them are filled with angst and focus on unrequited young love. One in particular, "I Try Not to Cry," is very long and episodic and ends with the young woman drowning herself as she says, "I try not to cry." None of them would ever gain anything but a rejection, of course. But they were great "practice" for the writing I would eventually be doing.

Yaya: Have you ever written something according to someone else's suggestion? I mean, like your agent or an editor? Say, a subject that you might not have thought of before?

Verla Kay: Actually, I did just that with my Putnam editor a couple of times. It was her suggestion that I write about the orphan train riders, and when she suggested I should write a story about a little colonial girl, I ended up getting two books out of that suggestion.

Verla Kay: I worked on Homespun Sarah for over a year and a half and the story just was NOT working. Finally one day I sat down and did a time-line on the story and realized instantly what my problem was with the story. Little Sarah was about 7 years old and I had her and her family sailing to the early colonies in the mid-1600's, but she was living in America and getting her new dress in the mid-1700's -- and she was still 7 years old!

Verla Kay: When I realized the problem, I split the book into two stories -- "Tattered Sails" about another family leaving London and sailing to Boston in the 1600's and "Homespun Sarah" which tells how Sarah gets a new dress in the 1700's. I was able to finish both books in a timely manner once I'd defined the correct story for each book.

Yaya: How much rewriting do you usually do? Are you one of those fun people who can rhyme and walk away, never having to do much more than touch up your work?

Verla Kay: Great question, yaya. Often I'll have a rhyme that will be perfect the minute I write it and when that happens, I rejoice! One of those was a verse I wrote for my "Gold Fever" book. I was thinking of my husband when I wrote it, and what he looked like when he came in the door from a happy gold panning expedition.
Crusty long johns,
Smelly shirt.
Sweat-stained britches,
Caked with dirt.

Verla Kay: That verse was perfect from the second I wrote and it never changed. The first verse in that same book took six months before I was able to "perfect" it so it read the way I wanted it to. It started out just fine:
Moving westward,
Many miners.
People call them,
"Forty-niners."

Verla Kay: It said what I wanted it to say, but it lacked that "something special." It was the first verse in the book and I wanted it to convey the urgency of the gold rush, the flavor of the times, and also that the people laughed at the miners for trying to make their fortune in the gold rush. I ended up conveying all of that in just SEVEN words, but it took me six months to find those perfect words for this verse. Now that first verse reads like this:
Dashing westward,
Many miners.
Townsfolk snicker,
"Forty-niners."

Verla Kay: Can you feel the flavor of the old west in this verse now? The urgency to get there before the gold was gone? The laughter of the townspeople? All of that was accomplished by using three different words - dashing, townsfolk and snicker. And just think... it only took me six months to find those three perfect words.

Yaya: Changing those three words made all the difference, didn't it?

Verla Kay: Yes, they did. And that just emphasizes how important every single word is in a picture book. The right words can turn an ordinary story into something very special, indeed. Those special words are well worth finding!

Ev: If you happen upon a word that fits your thought and meter but is above the young child's usual vocabulary, can you use it?

Verla Kay: I do, but definitely do it in moderation. I love to sprinkle a few fun, difficult words into my stories to help stretch children's vocabularies. Some of my favorite of these words are:
Rendezvous in Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?
Raucous ruckus in Iron Horses
Hunkers down in Rough, Tough Charley
Quarantine in "Orphan Train"
Craggy knoll in Gold Fever
Ridicule and reprimand in Hornbooks & Inkwells (coming in summer 2011)
Observation in Civil War Drummer Boy (coming in 2012)

Ev: Do you outline your rhyming stories to begin with a hook, folowed by difficulties, and an ending closure? What would be your outline for nonfiction?

Verla Kay: It would totally depend on the book, Eve. For my non-fiction "Iron Horses" story, I outlined it the same as I would any other story. The beginning, sets of problems in the middle showing how difficult it was to build the railroad, and then the conclusion.

Verla Kay: For my other non-fiction book, "Rough, Tough Charley," I used a totally different type of outline, because it was a non-fiction biography. It started with Charley running away from an orphanage as a youth, which is where any knowledge of Charley's story begins via historical data. The story follows Charley's career as a stagecoach driver, from where Charley first worked in the stables and learned to drive, through becoming one of the safest and best stagecoach drivers in the motherlode. The story ends with Charley's death, which turned out to be a very shocking event for the people who lived during that time. But the overall answer to your question is, "Yes. I do outline my stories."

Yaya: Do you have difficulty remembering all of your separate story ideas? It sounds as if you have many. What is your best trick for keeping track of all of them?

Verla Kay: I write them down. Otherwise, I'd forget half of them in a matter of days -- or perhaps hours! There's a fairly thick file in my drawer that is labeled, "Story Ideas." It's where any and all ideas I come up with get placed, along with any snippets of writing that goes along with each idea. When an idea starts haunting me, and won't let go and I find myself thinking of that story all the time, then I know it's time to take it out of the drawer and write it.

Verla Kay: I periodically go through the file and read the story ideas in it which keeps my creative juices flowing. Sometimes, nothing in the file jumps out at me, but another new idea will be generated from some of the old ideas in the file. That's an exciting moment, too, because usually those second generation ideas are better than the first ideas that come to mind.

Claudette: The one thing that I've often wondered is if a writer puts together a period piece, and tries to keep historically accuate as to the culture, language, household items, habits, etc., does this put the book in the historical fiction category? I know that any true books of history must remain true to the story's facts and figures, so to speak. But with fiction how much is enough to still claim historical categorization?

Verla Kay: My books are all historical fiction, Claudette. They are as accurate as I can get them as to the time period in which they are set, but they all have fictional characters except "Iron Horses" and "Rough, Tough Charley," which are both non-fiction books. ("Rough, Tough Charley" is a biography of a real stagecoach driver from the 1850's and "Iron Horses" is the story of how the transcontinental railroad was built.) I do try very hard to get the facts as accurate as possible in each book. In my "Homespun Sarah" book about a colonial girl from the 1700's I had ended the story with this verse:
Spinning, twirling,
Dancing toes.
Homespun Sarah,
Brand new clothes!

It was the perfect ending... until one of my critique partners mentioned that in the 1700's they didn't have ready-made clothing - or "brand names" on clothing. Oops! What a letdown! I was so bummed. The solution was never my favorite phrase, but it WAS historically accurate, so the story now ends like this:
Spinning, twirling,
Dancing toes.
Homespun Sarah,
All new clothes!

Yaya: I never thought about it, but that's prob'ly where the term Brand New came from; brand names.

Verla Kay: Exactly, Yaya. And I never thought twice about using the phrase, either, until my wonderful critique partner brought it to my attention. That's just one more reason why it's important to have someone else read your stories before you send them out. You never know what obscure little fact someone else will pick up on and mention that will make your story more accurate and therefore better.

Yaya: Does your family get involved with your writing very often?

Verla Kay: My husband helps me with my writing, mostly pointing out how lame and stupid some of my verses sound. Sometimes he's right on, other times he's totally wrong. It's up to me to decide which is which with each of his comments. My children are all grown now, and none of them are writers, but one of my granddaughters is thinking of writing someday, so who knows? Perhaps the legacy of my writing will filter down to future generations after all.

Cat: Would you recommend getting an agent? Do you have a specific place you looked for your agent? What are the things to look out for when choosing my own agent, and what are the things I should LOOK for in an agent?

Verla Kay: Wow. This topic could fill an entire book all by itself and I think this post might just qualify as that....

Verla Kay: Let's start first with my agent. I have a very long and involved agent story because the first agent I got turned out to be a nightmare. I did all the "right things" to get her. I researched agents in a guide to agents book. I found one I liked and I talked to other writers about her and got great feedback on what a wonderful agent she was. Then I signed up for and attended a writer's conference to meet her in person before I decided whether or not I wanted her. I paid for a private 15 minute session with her so I could ask her all the important questions and find out whether our personalities were compatible or not.

Verla Kay: She was perfect. But I wasn't ready yet for an agent, and I knew it and so did she. But she liked me, too, and gave me her card and told me when I was ready for an agent to call her. Several months later I had an editor call ME at home on a Sunday and ask if a story I'd briefly "pitched" to her at another conference was still available, that she had an illustrator she thought would be perfect for it. Talk about EXCITED! I told her it was available and it would be in the mail the next day to her. Then I called the agent and told her what this editor had said. The agent sent me a contract the same day. I signed it and mailed it back and all was well.

Verla Kay: Of course the editor passed on the book - ten months later. In the meantime, this agent sent out another of my books, and the two books sat. And sat. And sat. After many months I thought I'd find out what was happening with my stories, and I sent my agent a letter.

Verla Kay: No response.

Verla Kay: I called her and left a message on her answering machine.

Verla Kay: No response.

Verla Kay: I called person to person.

Verla Kay: No response.

Verla Kay: I sent her a self-addressed, stamped postcard that said:

_____ I am alive.
_____ I am dead.

Verla Kay: No response. (I thought SURE she'd respond to that!

Verla Kay: I kept calling and writing and never got any response. Ever.

Verla Kay: After about four months had gone by and I could NOT get any response at all from her, I sent her a registered letter telling her I was severing our relationship because I could not reach her.

Verla Kay: That was in July of 1994. To this date, I still have never heard from her. From someone else, I heard that she had quit being an agent, and dropped all her clients without notifying any of them.

Verla Kay: When I think of what would have happened if she had sold any of my books, I shudder! All of my money would have gone first to HER and then, when she got around to it, she would send on my share of my advances and royalties and any other monies I had coming to me.

Verla Kay: This is why I advocate ALWAYS signing with an agent who is part of a reputable agency and not an individual, independent agent. If she had been part of an agency, one of the their other agents would have taken over and I would still have had contact with the agency, even though she had quit.

Verla Kay: Needless to say, this experience left me with a rather jaded view of agents in general! I wasn't really interested in finding another one.

Verla Kay: Two months after I broke off with her, when my contract said I was free to sell my stories without her involvement anymore, I sent my stories out again. And two months after that, I got my first sale! And then six months later, my second book sold to the same editor. I was in ecstasy! My only complaint about my second sale was I didn't get the escalation clause I was hoping for. I wondered briefly if having an agent would fix that for me... but I was still smarting from my first agent experience and wasn't all that sure I wanted to trust another one.

Verla Kay: Then, shortly before I got an offer from the same editor for my third book, I had an amazing experience. I was a night clerk in a motel in a little town in California and while I was checking a couple in one night I happened to mention that I was a writer.

Verla Kay: "Oh," said the man. "What do you write?"

Verla Kay: "Children's historical picture books," I said, puffing out my chest just a bit.

Verla Kay: "Really?" he said. "Have you published any?"

Verla Kay: "Not yet," I said, deflating my chest a bit. "But I have two under contract right now with Putnam."

Verla Kay: "Who's your agent?" he asked.

Verla Kay: "I don't have one," I said, with my chest back to normal.

Verla Kay: "You don't?" he said, raising his eyebrows.

Verla Kay: Turned out that he was the father-in-law of the chairman of the board of Curtis Brown Literary Agency in New York, and he played golf all the time with his son-in-law's sister, who happened to be one of the foremost children's book agents at the agency.

Verla Kay: (The rule to learn from this is to ALWAYS tell EVERYONE that you are a writer! You never know who that person might know that could be someone you want to know, too!)

Verla Kay: He asked if he could read some of my work, and I told him, "Sure."

Verla Kay: The next day I brought some of my work with me and he and his wife read it in the lobby. (I wouldn't let him take my stories out my sight, of course, no matter who he said he was!) When they finished, he said it was wonderful and I should call Ginger and he gave me her phone number.

Verla Kay: I said, "Thanks," but I wasn't convinced. The next day I contacted all my writer friends and asked about this person called Ginger. They all said the same thing, "She's the best children's agent in New York!"

Verla Kay: I thought, "Yeah. Right. Just like that other agent?"

Verla Kay: But finally I called her. She said she wouldn't guarantee anything, but I could send some work to her. So I did. But I was still not convinced I wanted an agent.

Verla Kay: In the meantime, I got The Call from Putnam offering me another contract for my third book. I told the editor I was in the process of possibly getting an agent and I'd get back to her and let her know if I was going to negotiate my own contract or have an agent talk to her about it instead. She wasn't thrilled (she knew an agent would ask for and get better terms on a book than she would get with just me negotiating my own contract) but she said, "No problem. Just let me know."

Verla Kay: Then Ginger called me back and said she LOVED my work and wanted me for a client. I told her I wasn't sure I WANTED an agent, but she could send me her contract and I'd look it over.

Verla Kay: When it came, I had a question about something in the contract, so I called Ginger and said, "There's one clause in here that I don't understand."

Verla Kay: "I'll be happy to explain," she said. "What is it?"

Verla Kay: "Well," I said, "It says here that I have to pay for 'extra expenses.' I'd like to know exactly what those 'extra expenses' are."

Verla Kay: "Oh," Ginger said, "that's when my husband and I go to the Bahamas, you pay."

Verla Kay: I dropped the phone and my jaw hit the floor right beside it.

Verla Kay: When I picked it up, Ginger was laughing her head off. "I'm just kidding, Verla," she said. "That's for foreign postage and extra copies of manuscripts and things like that."

Verla Kay: That's when I knew I had THE agent for me. Anyone with a sense of humor like that was exactly the right agent for me. And she was. (And just for the record, in 12 years I've only had about $6 charged to me via that "extra expenses" clause.)

Verla Kay: And now you know more about how I got my current agent than you ever wanted to know!

Verla Kay: The moral of this story of course is that you can't really tell what an agent will be like until you actually work with the agent. You can, however, avoid some problems before you ever sign up.

Verla Kay: Here are my recommendations when looking for an agent:

1) Always look for an agency that is established or that has been opened by someone very established in the children's book world.

2) Do your homework before contacting agents. Does this agent (or person who is new at the agency) come well-recommended by other writers? Is the agent also a "book doctor" who charges reading fees? (If so, RUN, don't just walk away.)

3) Does your prospective agent like to edit your work before you send it out? Do you want an agent who does this? I personally know whatever editor I get will want changes in my stories, and I'd rather make all changes for the person who bought the book, instead of making one set of changes for my agent and then still have to make another set of changes to the book for the editor that buys it.

4) Will your agent send all rejections to you so you know who turned it down and why? (Some do, some don't and some only do if you ask them to.)

5) How easy is your prospective agent to contact? Will the agent get back to you very fast when you have questions? Can you use email or do they only work via telephone and snail mail?

6) Does your agent submit electronically or only via snail mail?

7) Does this agent submit to more than one editor at once or will he/she send out only exclusives?

8 ) How long after the agency gets your money from your publisher will they forward on your share to you?

9) What vision does the agent have for your career? And will the agent want to help you forward your career by giving you advice on where and how frequently stories will be sent to editors?

10) Does the agent expect a certain number of books to be submitted by you each year? What if you can't meet that expectation? What will happen then?

11) What happens if one or the other of you decides to split after selling any books? What will happen to your royalties on that book? What will happen to the books that aren't sold yet? Will you be able to resubmit them on your own or with another agent without any penalty from this agent/agency?

12) Are there any extra charges besides commissions on sales that will be charged to you and what are they for? (A reputable agency will never charge you reading or editing fees. They will not charge you any money "up front." They get paid when you do - from the publisher - and if there are any "extra charges" they will come out of your royalties and/or advance payments, not out of your pocket.)

Verla Kay: Most of these should be outlined in your agency contract. And although I know some authors/agents work without a contract, I would personally never be comfortable not knowing what the "rules" were for when we finally broke up, or even while we were together. I highly recommend a written contract between you.

Verla Kay: Whew! I knew this was going to be an entire book! Sorry for rambling on so very long... but I have a lot to say on the subject of agents!

jjsewell: I am an elementary school librarian and that is one of my favorite genres to read to children. My question: I'm working on a manuscript about the discovery of the giant sequoias in Calaveras County, CA. It is based on facts and real people. But, since it is fictionalized, is it alright to invent dialogue, thoughts, actions? I don't know what the main character did when he first saw the sequoias but I can imagine, right? What are the rules for historical non-fiction?

Verla Kay: To my knowledge, jjsewell, there is no such category as historical non-fiction. That's because you are either writing non-fiction, which has NO invented dialogue, thoughts, actions, etc. in it or you are writing historical fiction, which is fiction based on history. It sounds like this is the type of story you are writing - historical fiction. At this point, don't worry too much about what "category" your story will be. Just write it as accurately and as well as you can. When you are done, it's been revised and perfected, and you are sure it's ready, send it to editors (or agents) and let them decide its category. The main thing to remember is that it isn't non-fiction if there are any fictional elements in it.

ev: Selling a picture book is tough in the current market. Since you have an agent and are an established author, I realize your situation is different, but I just wondered if you have any thoughts about pros and cons of subbing to very small or fairly new publishers. I know it's important to do our research, but if a publisher is new there's not a lot to research. Obviously, it's a risk, but what are some good things to consider if a person is trying to decide whether to take that risk? Also, do you have an opinion of small publishers (who are still trying to establish themselves) who offer royalties but not an advance?

Verla Kay: Very good questions, Ev, and not especially easy ones to answer, either.

Verla Kay: I haven't always had an agent, and did a lot of subbing before I got my current good agent and at that time I had this same question about new and small publishers. I wasn't at all afraid to sub to an established small publisher. Sometimes the advantages can outweigh the disadvantages.

Verla Kay: With a small publisher you might get treated better, simply because your book won't be "lost" in the masses of new books that a bigger publisher publishes each season. They might promote your book more, care more about its success, and keep it longer in print, simply because they have a larger investment (percentage-wise) in each of their books because they publish a fewer number each year than the big publishers.

Verla Kay: On the flip side, the smaller publishers might not have the resources behind them to make as big a splash with a book as a larger publisher could because they might not have as much "clout" with bookstores, buyers, etc. They also will most likely pay a smaller advance, if any at all, for the same reason.

Verla Kay: It's a decision that each writer has to make individually as to whether or not they feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. How badly do you want to be published? How much do you need an advance? Can you afford to wait months or maybe a year or two to make any money (if any at all) on your book? Are you willing to wait that long -- to take that chance?

Verla Kay: I submitted some of my stories to small publishers because for me it was worth it. It turned out that I got an offer from a big publisher first... so that's the one I took. But it could just as easily turned out to be one of the smaller publishers that offered first for my book.

Verla Kay: As far as a brand new publisher goes, I'd be a lot more hesitant to go with them. What if they fold in the middle of production of your book or the minute it is published? What happens to your book then? I know one writer who was so thrilled because she sold her first book to a new publisher. They published the book and almost as soon as it came out, the company folded. She couldn't get any more copies of her book and it "died" before it was even really out! It was such a tragedy for her. She would have been better off to wait until she had a more stable offer.

Verla Kay: But again, this is a very personal decision that only YOU can make. It's like being hungry for a cookie. How hungry are you? Are you willing to eat a coconut cookie when you don't like coconut?

Verla Kay: So I guess my answer to your question is... "How hungry are you for a publishing cookie?"

mmmgood: Ms. Kay, do you have a goal for the number of submissions you would like out your door per year?

Verla Kay: No, but I should have! Maybe it would light a fire under me and make me spend more time writing and less time on emails and the message board.

Verla Kay: Since I write so very, very slowly, my productivity isn't very high. If I submit one new book a year, I feel I'm doing well. I know lots of other writers are much faster than I am, but when you figure I spend years on each of my books, I'm really lucky to get one ready to submit per year.

Yaya: I see that you and your agent have been together for quite a few years. When you have a new story idea, do you still need to write a query letter or are you able to just call and say, "Whaddya' think of this idea?"

Verla Kay: I don't run ideas by her at all. She doesn't see my stories until they are done. Then she either sends them out, or tells me she doesn't think they are ready and sends them back to me. Some agents edit and work with their clients on their stories, mine doesn't. Her philosophy about the publishing business is: "Writers write, editors edit, and I take care of the business end of things for my writers."

Yaya: My children heard many rhyming stories while they were growing up, as well as newly created words, unique to whatever we were talking about. Was rhyming something you did with your children, also? I'm curious to know if you made up very many stories to tell them, as well. Thank you.

Verla Kay: I did occasionally make up stories for them, although usually we read from our favorite books. (Ten Apples Up on Top, Dr. Seuss books, the Oz books, etc.) There was one story I made for them that had pictures in it. Each picture was cut into thirds and there was text with each part of each picture. As you turned the different parts of the pages, you would get a different story each time you read the book, depending on what pages were together. It was such a GREAT book. The kids and I all loved it.

Verla Kay: Unfortunately, that "dummy" book disappeared somewhere along the way in one of our moves and I could never remember the full story to put it back together. I've lamented the loss of it for many years, although it's very probable that if I were to find it today, it probably wasn't half as good as I thought it was back then.

Yaya: You've mentioned that you like to go to the actual site of events that you are writing about. Do you do quite a bit of traveling for research?

Verla Kay: As much as I can, which sometimes, in the light of the amount of money children's authors in general and this children's author in particular do NOT make, isn't a whole lot. But whenever I can, I travel to different places where I can do research for upcoming stories. I love to travel and see and experience new places. One of my most memorable moments on a trip was when my husband and I got lost in a elevator in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in a big shopping mall. It was a very interesting experience, and I'll never forget the shock of stepping out of that elevator - instead of on the second floor of the mall - into a dingy hallway of offices, where an armed guard pulled his gun and started yelling and running towards us.

Verla Kay: We jumped back into the elevator, punched the bottom button (there were only TWO unmarked buttons in the entire elevator - we'd apparently accidentally gotten into a service elevator, not a public one!) and found ourselves down under the shopping mall in the bowels of the building, with steaming, hissing pipes all over the place. We looked at each other and shrugged. It was either get out there, or go back up to the armed guard with the gun. We got out there. It took quite a while, but we finally found a little transom window that we could squeeze through onto the grass outside the basement. We walked around the building and back to our hotel. We decided we didn't need to see the second floor of the mall, after all! Yep, traveling is definitely an adventure - especially when you travel with me. I seem to be a magnet for all kinds of interesting experiences.

Yaya: I am often inundated with bursts of creativity. For awhile, nothing productive. Then, all at once, a whole string of ideas or poems. Does this happen to you?

Verla Kay: Absolutely. Writing is a funny thing. If you really want to be productive, you have to write even when that creative urge isn't calling you. But when those moments of special creative energy hit, I take full advantage of them. The house, my husband and family, everything else in my life takes a back seat for that short time. Those moments are a real "gift" and I love when they happen. It's probably a good thing that they don't happen too often, or I could have severe problems in my "real life" with my husband and family.

Yaya: Could you please give an example of how you would outline for a picture book? It never occurred to me that it was possible. Thank you.

Verla Kay: It's not hard to do, Yaya. For instance, for my new "Whatever Happened to the Pony Express?" book here's what my outline looked like:

Verla Kay: A sister in Pennsylvania and her brother who lives in California write letters back and forth to each other. The letters between them will show how slow mail was going by stagecoach, steamer ships, then how quickly using the Pony Express, and how speedy telegrams were, as well as how much quicker mail could be delivered by trains than by the older methods.

Verla Kay: Through their letters (shown in prose in the artwork) the reader will get a "second" story over and above the main story of mail delivery which will be in the rhymed text of the book. This secondary story will show the two families, how they each live, and will end with Prudence sending one of her boys to California to help his uncle on the ranch.

Verla Kay: For the rhyming part of the story, mail is shown going by stagecoach through rough mountains, dirt trails, over raging rivers and through hot deserts, and even on a steam ship.

Verla Kay: Camels are brought in to try delivering mail. It's a dismal test and they are sold to circuses and/or freed when it's determined it isn't a good way to deliver mail.

Verla Kay: The Pony Express is created. Wanted posters and the reasons for creating it are mentioned.

Verla Kay: Riders dash off and deliver the mail. They have to avoid arrows twanging and war whoops crying, they change horses "on the fly" at lonely outposts.

Verla Kay: People in towns cheer when the mail is delivered faster than ever before.

Verla Kay: The telegraph system is built and put into operation.

Verla Kay: In prose, in the artwork, Prudence sends a telegram to Thomas telling him one of her boys was killed in a mining accident. She mentions she's worried for the rest of her boys.

Verla Kay: In rhyme, the mail service is back to slower stagecoaches now... important news is sent via telegrams.

Verla Kay: Thomas' namesake, little Tom, writes his uncle a letter (in prose in the artwork) telling how hard he has to work in the mine now that he's nine, that he likes "schol beter" and that he wishes he could come live on the ranch with his "unkle."

Verla Kay: The rhyming text continues with trains taking over delivery of mail and Prudence sends little Tom out to help his uncle work on the ranch. He arrives on a train with a note (in prose in the artwork) thanking Thomas and asking him to "Please take good care of my little boy."

Verla Kay: The final scene of the book is in rhyme, and it tells readers that the stations are now empty, and trains chug past moving mail and people fast.

Verla Kay: In essence, what I do is write the book pretty much in prose, outlining the main points I want to cover in the story. Of course, often the story line will warp and change, according to what perfect rhymes I can fit into the book that still tell the basic story I want to tell.

Verla Kay: Because my rhymes are so VERY short and rigid in structure, there are certain words I can NOT use in them. For instance, I could NOT use the words, Pony Express in my book, because the natural rhythm of those two words doesn't fit the natural rhythm of my cryptic rhyming style which goes like this:
DA da DA da,
DA da DA.
DA da DA da,
DA da DA.

Verla Kay: It's an extremely rigid and limiting format to write a historical story within. The words, POny exPRESS, have four syllables, but the natural rhythm isn't the same as my format. It would have to be read as POny EXpress. And that wouldn't work in anyone's book!

Verla Kay: I stressed over this for the longest time, before I finally realized no matter what I did, I could NOT change the natural rhythm of those words and I could NOT use those words in the book. So my solution was to put them into the title, instead. It was all I could do to make the story "right."

Mariah: I know you write fiction, but I was wondering if you have to do a bibliography for each book because it has true history in it?

Verla Kay: While I probably don't "have" to do a bibliography for my books, I usually do. And just to give you an idea of the amount of research I do for my books, here's the current bibliography for my upcoming (2012) Civil War Drummer Boy book that I recently compiled and sent to my editor. You will note I've marked the resources I felt might be most helpful to the illustrator of the book so that she can forward those recommendations on to him:

Verla Kay: Civil War Drummer Boy bibliography by Verla Kay

Verla Kay: * Recommended for illustrator use

Verla Kay: ** Especially recommended for illustrator use

• A Battlefield Atlas of the Civil War by Craig L. Symonds 1983
• *A Pictorial History of the Civil War Years by Paul M. Angle 1967
• ** American Heritage Civil War Chronology by American Heritage Publishing Co., Inc 1960
• * American Heritage Picture History of the Civil War – Volumes I and II 1960
• * The Battlefields of the Civil War by William C Davis 2001
• Book of the American Civil War by Howard Egger-Bovet & Marlene Smith-Baranzini 1998
• ** The Boys’ War by Jim Murphy 1990
• Campfire and Battlefield by Rossiter Johnson 1978
• The Civil War by Robert Paul Jordan 1969
• The Civil War by Tom Robotham 2001
• The Civil War – an Illustrated History by Geoffrey C. Ward 1990
• Civil War Curiosities by Webb Garrison 1994
• Civil War Firsts by Gerald S. Henig & Eric Niderost 2001
• Civil War Ghosts and Legends by Nancy Roberts 1992
• Civil War in Pictures by Fletcher Pratt 1955
• The Civil War Sourcebook by Chuck Lawless 1991
• Civil War – The War Between the States by George Lee & Roger Gaston 1994
• Civil War Trivia and Fact Book by Webb Garrison 1992
• The Civil War on the Web by Alice E. Carter & Richard Jensen 2003
• * The Commanders of the Civil War by William C Davis 2001
• Don’t Know Much About the Civil War by Kenneth C. Davis 1996
• The Everything Civil War Book by Donald Vaughan 2000
• * Everyday Life During the Civil War by Michael J. Varhola 1999
• Everyday Life in the Civil War by Walter A. Hazen 1999
• Facts America the Civil War by Eric Weiner 1992
• ** The Fighting Men of the Civil War by William C Davis 1989
• The Generals of the Civil War by William C. Davis 1993
• ** Military Ballooning during the Early Civil War by F. Stansbury Haydon 2000 (Originally published 1861)
• ** The Soldiers of the Civil War by William C. Davis 1993
• Soldier Life and the Secret Service – The Photographic History of the Civil War by Francis Trevelyan Miller 1957
• The Time-Life History of the Civil War by the Editors of Time-Life Books 1990
• The War Between the States by Eric Wollencott Barnes 1959
• * War, Terrible War by Joy Hakim 1994

Verla Kay: NOTE: Since I did most of the writing of this book before 2001, these are ONLY the books I actually bought and used for the researching of this story. There were other sources that weren't important enough for me to buy the entire book that I also used.

Verla Kay: As you can see, I spend a lot of time doing research for my little under 350 word books!

Jan Fields: Thanks so much for visiting with us and sharing so richly from your experience.

Yaya: Thank you for all that you have been willing to share with us. Of course, we are a band of novices who are anxious to learn all we can on the road to publication and your very in-depth instruction will certainly go far in helping to smooth our paths. Thank you so very much.

Verla Kay: You are most welcome. I love helping others to succeed. This has been a very interesting experience for me, too.