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"Marketing: The Other Half of Writing" with Veda Boyd Jones.

Thursday, July 25, 2002

Moderator is Kristi Holl, web editor for this site and author of 24 books and 150+ articles. She also taught writing for children for 15 years.

Veda is Veda Boyd Jones, author of 28 books and over 200 articles and short stories in magazines.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights for two hours beginning [9 CANADA/Atlantic], 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! I'm your moderator, Kristi Holl, and tonight I'm happy to have with us Veda Boyd Jones, who will be speaking on "Marketing: The Other Half of Writing." Veda is the author of 28 books and over 200 articles and short stories in magazines. Early in her career she learned the hard way (many rejections) that a writer can't expect to sell her work if she hasn't taken time to study the markets. Tonight she's going to share with us what she learned about how to profitably study those markets. Welcome, Veda!

Veda: Hi, everyone. It's so good to be back in the chat room.

Moderator: Veda, how did you yourself get started writing?

Veda: It's a long story, but I'll try to give the short version. My husband, sons, and I moved to Tulsa, OK, and on the first day we unpacked, and on the second day, I took the boys to the library to sign them up for story time. I tried to get a library card, but I didn't have proof of residency yet, so I could only check out paperback books on the honor system. My choices were westerns and romances. I chose romances and soon I had read quite a few, and I said, "I could do better than this..." That was back in the 80s, and romances have come a long way, and it wasn't as easy as I thought. I wrote five romances before I sold one, and while I was learning the craft of romance, my boys wanted me to write something for them, so I wrote a short story, and then another, and I sold them to magazines, and I was hooked on writing for children, even though I did write and sell nine romances before switching entirely to children's books. I still write for adult magazines sometimes.

Moderator: What is a typical writing day like for you now, and how has that changed over the years?

Veda: When I first started writing, the only time I had was at the boys' nap time. The boys took naps every afternoon from one to three. My oldest son won the Best Rester award on his first day in kindergarten because he fell asleep. After that I let the boys stop taking naps before kindergarten. Once they were older and all in school, I started the day by throwing a load in the laundry, sweeping the kitchen, planning supper, and then I turned on the computer around 8:30. I wrote until Jim came home for lunch, took a break, then went back to it until the boys came home from school. My youngest son leaves for college in a month, and my schedule will change again. When he started first grade, I had my writer friends over for lunch and declared myself a full time writer. I've already invited them back again, 12 years later, for August 19 on his first day of college. And we'll all discuss our goals and what we've learned in 12 years of writing.

Moderator: I love that idea! Veda, why don't writers believe it when editors say study the magazine before querying? (I know I didn't either--not until I kept getting rejected.)

Veda: Because they think that what they write is good, and the editor will buy it. I certainly thought that (although I'm smarter now). I thought I'd be the exception to the rule, and I also dreamed that Johnny Carson would have me on his show!

Moderator: What exactly does "marketing" entail, and why is marketing important?

Veda: Marketing is the other half of writing. You can't sell to a magazine if you don't know what the magazine is like. It takes time to study magazines, but professional writers take that time, and they know it's as important as the research and writing.

Moderator: Can a writer skip this part and get an agent to market his/her magazine work?

Veda: No. Well, probably not. Most agents don't want to work with magazine articles or stories because they don't bring in the dollars that books do. So finding an agent to sell magazine work would be a difficult task.

Erica: Any ideas for choosing what magazines to research?

Veda: Yes. You should think about what you want to write. Let's take for example Nature's Friend magazine--if you are interested in nature, that sounds like a good fit, so you should read the magazine to see what type of articles the editors wants. Then you should decide what topic you'd like to write about that would fit there. If you wanted to write fiction, you should look at magazines that take fiction, like Highlights or Cricket (and the several magazines in that group: Spider, Ladybug, etc.) Another fiction market would be the magazines in the Children's Better Health Institute, like Children's Digest and Jack and Jill, etc. Those magazines all require a slant toward sports, health, and fitness, so that would dictate what direction you took for fiction or nonfiction.

Jabeth: If a person has a good story idea roughed out, is it best to go ahead and polish it, then search for a market, or find a likely market before the rewrite and polishing stages?

Veda: Good question. In my early days of writing, I wrote the story or article first, then searched for a market. I never do that now. I may have a topic in mind, but I find a magazine for it before I ever write it. How else would I know how long the piece should be? Or what age level I should write it for?

Pilarb: I have a tendency to read magazines and then I try to write stories specifically for those magazines, based on what I've read in them. In your opinion, is that a good strategy?

Veda: I think it's an excellent strategy, pilarb. Then you know if the editor wants first person stories or stories in third person and you know how old the main character is and the length of the piece.

Paulplqn: Samples usually cost money. Can writers deduct this?

Veda: Absolutely. Keeping good records is important to a writer. I deduct the cost of magazines, newspapers, books, and the cost of my online server. Marketing research is one step in researching the entire article. Everything associated with the research is deductible. But keep those receipts just in case the IRS wants an audit.

Mbvoelker: How can you research effectively on a tight budget? I can't afford to buy many sample copies and the small rural libraries I have access to don't subscribe to many magazines. They also don't have an extensive ILL program -- the other regional libraries are just as rural, just as small, and just as limited.

Veda: Well, I was going to suggest the library, but obviously that doesn't work very well for you. An alternative would be to network with other writers and share the magazines. Since you're online, you might find buddies to subscribe to one magazine and you another, then you could analyze them. Not type the stories online, but share how many stories, what type, how many articles and answer questions the other writer might have.

Moderator: What is a mission statement?

Veda: Every magazine has a mission. An obvious mission statement for Highlights for Children is Fun with a Purpose; the editor puts that right on the cover. I've already mentioned that the CBHI magazines focus on health and fitness--that's their mission. Cobblestone's mission is to make history exciting for kids. Ranger Rick's mission is probably to teach kids to respect nature. It just takes reading the magazine to decide why the magazine exists.

Moderator: What do you look at first in a magazine when you analyze it?

Veda: Okay, I'll admit I look at the pictures. I look to see how well the articles or stories are illustrated and if photos are used. The balance of text to pictures tells a lot about the magazine's reading level, and at the same time that I'm looking at pictures, I'm looking at how much fiction and how much nonfiction is published. Most magazines are heavily weighted toward nonfiction. Some publish no fiction at all, so it doesn't take a mental giant to realize that nonfiction is going to be an easier sell. It only took me five years to realize that!

Paulplqn: Many magazines have a web site with submission criteria.

Veda: Yes, they do. Web sites have really helped with marketing with the guidelines online and the theme lists online, and sometimes even sample stories or articles. I use the web a great deal as a marketing tool.

Mbvoelker: Can you deduct your Internet server if your family uses it too? Or do you have a dedicated business connection?

Veda: I'm no accountant, but I deduct the whole thing. I can't have the server for only the times I want, since it isn't sold that way--at least mine is sold for a monthly charge. I'll admit my son gets online when I'm not using it. But I still deduct the monthly charge. I also deduct the newspaper subscription even though my husband also reads it.

Pilarb: How many issues of one magazine do you recommend reading to get a good idea of what the magazine may publish?

Veda: If you can, you should read six back issues because sometimes different departments are featured in a magazine in different months. Let's take Boys' Life for example. [And note where the apostrophe goes in that magazine's name.] There are many departments like Science, History, or Computers that alternate months with other departments. If you just read one back issue, you'd think there wasn't a department on health because it wasn't in the issue you read, and for that magazines, it's easier to break into the shorter 750-word department articles than in the longer feature articles.

Paulplqn: Do you have to sell a story before you can deduct expenses?

Veda: No. I wouldn't deduct a trip to Paris, but you can deduct basic costs of paper, pen, computer paper before you show a profit.

Pilarb: Do you find that magazine publishers change the types of stories they publish often?

Veda: I don't know, but I know the topics change with time; what couldn't be mentioned in a magazine five years ago might be a topic that is explored in many magazines today, so I guess my answer is really "yes," the stories do change.

Markus: Speaking of web sites, do you have any tips on marketing to them?

Veda: Because I'm a mercenary person, I make sure the web site is a paying market before I submit to it. As for studying the web site, the procedure would be the same as with other types of magazines: you should read what's on the web magazine's site, and certainly you should read the guidelines the editors have carefully crafted. They do that for your benefit and for theirs. They don't want to read a story that is 1000 words long if they request that all submissions be under 600 words.

Bcrum: I have heard negatives and positives about submitting stories ONLINE; what is your opinion on this?

Veda: I usually sell only reprint rights to an online magazine. Actually that's all I've ever sold online since the readership usually isn't as large as for a print magazine. And I'm ego-driven enough to want kids to read my work.

Canoe: I was given a stack of Writer's Digest Magazines from the 1990's. How accurate is the information as far as writing tips/methods of marketing compared to those methods used today?

Veda: Canoe, I think most everything is the same when it comes to writing tips, but of course the marketing information is way out of date. You could never count on an editor still being at a magazine. So you wouldn't know who to send your work to and the guidelines could change. Many magazines have changed formats to types that use more sidebars than five years ago, and there are other areas that could also change. Years ago I wrote an article on choosing names for The Writer. Then I found an old Writer from the early 80s that had an article on the same topic. Our points, although written differently, were nearly identical, which is why I think writing tips remain pretty much the same.

Patty: Can you talk about writing a piece that would be right for several magazines--in case the first one rejects it?

Veda: You could write on a topic that would be of interest to several magazines, but you could only slant the article to one magazine at a time. An example is an article I wrote with Highlights in mind. I analyzed six profiles that Highlights had published, and I learned that they started with what trait in the person made him the adult he became. And that's how I started my article. When it was rejected (because they didn't know when they would use it in the magazine, even though the editor said it was exactly their style) I sent it to Cricket. It was rejected there, too, because I didn't rewrite it. [This was in '93 before I learned to market well.] I later sent it to the Writer's Digest contest, and it won first place in the articles division, so never give up on a piece. And never do what I did and send it to Cricket if it doesn't work for Highlights. Cricket is a literary magazine and they wanted an entirely different slant on my topic with much more on the intellectual side of the subject.

Markus: Do you rely on marketing guides like Children's Magazine Market or Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market? If so, how can they be used to a writer's best advantage?

Veda: I start with the marketing guides. Of course, I use the Children's Magazine Market, and l like the breakdown on how many articles and stories are in the magazine. That tells me right off if a short story stands a chance of publication, but the guide is where I start. Then I send off for guidelines. Just this week I got guidelines for two magazines and I find that getting guidelines is good writing mail. I feel like a writer when there's something in the mailbox that refers to writing, even if it's guidelines. Once I get the guidelines, I try to find a sample copy. Okay, okay, I'll admit I've submitted to a magazine without studying it, but I've studied everything else about it (guidelines and themes), and my luck at selling without studying the magazine is exactly two magazines.

larae: As a new writer, I've had some people advise me to submit to the larger glossy magazines before I go for the smaller ones, yet others advise me opposite. What is your opinion?

Veda: I've also heard both sides of that question, and I also submit to the big guys first, but I've targeted them with the manuscript. I didn't write the piece for a smaller circulation magazine in mind. If the big magazine rejects the piece, then I revise it for a smaller one.

Moderator: What is a mast head and what can you learn from it?

Veda: The mast head is the listing of the folks who work at the magazine from the editors to the salesmen, usually. And sometimes there are several editors listed and you need to look at the departments they are listed with before you decide who to submit your piece to. The mast head also has the address of the editorial offices, and it usually has the circulation office, too, so you have to read the very fine print carefully to get the right one and to get the right editor.

Moderator: What does contributing editor mean?

Veda: A contributing editor contributes articles (maybe stories) to the magazine on a regular basis. I know a contributing editor at Family Circle. She writes humor and she is required to submit a certain number of articles each year. That doesn't mean that FC doesn't buy humor articles from other writers, but a careful magazine study would reveal how many articles are written by other freelancers, and how many articles are written by a contributing editor. If you saw the contributing editor's name month after month in the magazine, you could deduce that that department of the magazine wasn't very open to freelancers.

Moderator: To which editor do I send my manuscript?

Veda: There are several opinions on that question. The editor-in-chief probably isn't going to be the first reader of a submission unless it's a very small magazine. So some writers think it's better to submit to the managing editor or an associate editor with the thought that the associate editor would be glad to see her name on an envelope! If an editor is listed for a certain section of the magazine (Marileta Robinson at Highlights is in charge of the rebus submission) then I'd submit the appropriate piece to that editor. But if I didn't know who was in charge of what, I'd probably go with the first editor listed. But I would always have a name of an editor. I've heard that magazines tossed any mail that didn't have a name on it after the anthrax scare.

Moderator: What if the guidelines just say to send to "Submissions Editor" or something like that? Should you try to find a specific name?

Veda: I would always try to find a name. And you can find a name in the mast head. Or you can call the editorial office and ask the receptionist who you should address it to. There are times you may only be told "Submissions editor," but I believe (just my opinion) that the submissions editor is the receptionist or secretary.

Larae: When you say "study a magazine", you mean more than just reading the articles to find the magazine's "voice". What other information should we be looking for?

Veda: Voice is so important. That and tone (conversational vs. academic) is also important to know before you write a piece. Also you should look at balance between dialogue and narrative in fiction and the number of quotes in nonfiction. And the titles, and the pictures, and the number of sidebars and if the writer took the pictures--all give clues to how that magazine is put together. If you can pretend you are the editor when you look at a magazine, look at each story and each article, and decide why the editor chose it for that magazine, then you'll have an understanding of what type of piece belongs in that magazine and again we can go back to how does each piece fit into the mission of the magazine?

Larae: If there are two "features" editors, for example, and you're submitting a feature, how do you choose which to send it to?

Veda: Toss a coin. Sorry, don't mean to be flip (pun intended), but if there's no way of knowing, then just choose one.

Canoe: If a writer is asked to be a contributing editor, what kind of 'conditions' should be a 'must' for that type of contract?

Veda: You must know how many manuscripts you must submit in a year and you must have the amount of money you'll be paid spelled out. Is it per manuscript or per word, and you'll want to know the time requirements. Must you submit one every month by the first, for example.

Nell: If your magazine samples are several years old, should you request new ones? If the publication has a web site with stories/ articles on it, are hard copy samples even necessary?

Veda: If your samples are years old, get new ones. And I think the web is a good starting point for studying the magazine. It may only have a few articles/stories online, just a sampling, if it is principally a print magazine. Guideposts for Kids used to be a print magazine, and now it's strictly online. I think the format has changed a bit now that it's only online. And that's the thing you should check by reading the print magazine--format. Web sites tend to have info in small chunks that are very visual while the magazine may have more text.

Bcrum: I love Chicken Soup stories and think some of my work would fit in there, but their guidelines specify it can take 3 years to get printed. Does that mean you send something and forget about it for that period of time?

Veda: Yes, you forget about every submission you make anywhere until you hear back from it. The Chicken Soup books usually only reply if they want a story, or they send a postcard if you're still one of the finalists for a particular book. That it takes three years to get in print is also something to forget about. It takes that long to get a book out sometimes and for some magazines you may sell a piece to them, cash the check they send, and the piece may never be printed in the magazine. Some magazines, like Highlights, have a big inventory. They don't buy for a specific issue, but they buy good stories and articles they see. So you may sell to them (I have) and the piece never see print.

Moderator: How can you tell the age of the magazine's average reader?

Veda: Vocabulary and sentence structure are clues to reader level. Also the topics covered tell you how old the reader will be. Of course, if you have the magazine's guidelines, the reader age will be right on them. Market study is a combination of guidelines, market listings (which may tell percent of freelance bought and length of time before editor response) and the actual magazine.

Moderator: The magazines have age ranges of readership, like "ages 4-7" or ages "12-15." Is it better to aim more specifically at a certain age, like 7 or 15, or does it matter?

Veda: It is much easier for me to write a piece if I have a specific reader in mind. If the range is 4-7, you're dealing with readers and non-readers (or listeners). Listeners can understand a lot more than beginning readers can read, so you must read stories/articles in the magazine to see what age the editor targets. In a magazine with a wide range (again take Highlights for example) there will be some pieces for a two-year-old (the rebuses) and some for 12-year-olds (features on artists).

Marc: Can an author live off writing magazine articles? As little as they pay, you would have to sell about 20 stories a month. I find that quite discouraging.

Veda: I don't think a writer can live well from selling children's magazine articles or stories, but a writer could live okay on money made from selling to adult and children's magazines. Some adult magazines pay very well, if a writer got in with an editor. By that I mean if the writer produced quality material always on deadline so that an editor could depend on him/her, then the writer could get quite a few assignments. Some children's magazines pay well, but not as much as the big adult magazines. On a personal note, the most I've been paid for a children's piece is $340 and I've been paid $1000 for the same number of words for an adult magazine. Oh, one more thing about writing for magazines...I think they are a great training ground for writers. I believe that book publishers want to see that writers can write well before taking a chance on them. That's where that wonderful paragraph in a query letter comes in, the "My published works have appeared in Highlights, Cricket, Humpty Dumpty, etc." That paragraph tells the book editor that other editors have liked your work.

Mbvoelker: What do you do about those pieces that you are paid for but never see in print? I've been told several times that selling reprint rights is the only way to really make any money off magazines.

Veda: If I've sold all rights (like I have for Highlights), then I forget about it. If I've sold first American serial rights, then I wait a year, then send a letter to the editor, asking when the piece will be in print. Of course, we all want to sell just one time rights, which means that the editor can be the first or second or third to print it, and you don't have to wait to see it in print before submitting it elsewhere. I've always thought that religious magazines were a gold mine. Baptists don't read Methodist magazines or Catholic or yadda, yadda, yadda, so you can sell to all of them if your story is just slightly re-slanted to fit the next magazine. Most religious magazines for kids are value centered, not doctrine based, so you can just keep on submitting. When it comes to getting pieces in the mail, I at one time had a goal of 40 pieces in the mail at one time. That way I was always getting writing mail. That isn't such a hard feat if you aim for one piece a week. You'll have 12-16 out there before you begin hearing from the first ones, and don't forget that fillers can pay as much as articles/stories is certain magazines. They don't take that long to write, so you might get several of those out each week, but fillers require market research, just as bigger pieces do.

Paulplqn: How does one sell reprint rights?

Veda: I write a cover letter that states that reprint rights are available on "story #1" and that story #1" appeared in the April issue of _____magazine. I include the piece in manuscript form instead of in the form in which it was printed. An editor may want to edit the original a bit differently or see a different possibility for illustration if you don't send the published piece.

Patty: How much time do you spend marketing compared to how much you spend writing/researching?

Veda: That requires a bit of thought. I know one writer who spends every Wednesday morning in the library reading back issues. Then she meets a few others of us for our usual Wednesday lunch where we talk about markets and writing. The writer is very successful at freelancing because of the two or three hours every week spent on marketing. I'm sure I spend more time on research/writing than on marketing, but the marketing is the first thing I do. Probably a ten to one ratio, with the low side on the marketing, but it's first. I can't emphasize that enough. Marketing comes first.

Larae: What is the best way to research whether a magazine you want to pitch your article to has published something similar recently?

Veda: You can use the readers' guide, which lists a great many magazines and comes out monthly. There was one for children's magazines, too. Some magazines have an annual index. And some have no easy way of finding out that information. If an editor bought an article on the invention of the telephone, you would have no way of knowing that for months if it took the normal time of editing, layout, etc. to get in print. If you read a few back issues, you'd know if an article on telephones had been printed recently, and that's a start. Here's one good thing about children's magazines--the readership turns over every few years. A kid can only be nine once, and then will move on to magazines that are for older kids.

Canoe: I have several fiction and nonfiction stories that I have written over the last several months while taking the ICL course. Would it be wise of me to send out everything that I have, (after I've revised, of course)? I may have 20 or so stories.

Veda: I would not send more than one story to any specific magazine at a time, but I would send out as many as you could to different magazines. Since the pieces are already written, you'll have to approach the marketing a bit backwards. Find a magazine that would be appropriate for the topic, then revise for the age level and length and tone, then submit it. Do the same for each piece. And don't be afraid of rejection. I've had hundreds of them (not something I really want to brag about)....

[At this point, the server went down and the interview was terminated.]

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks when we will have with us S. Joan Popek speaking on the subject "How Has Science Fiction Changed? From 20,000 Leagues under The Sea to Rockets, Redheads and Revolution." When writing science-fiction for children, it is important not to "write down" to them. They are smarter and more tech savvy than we were. Don't sell them short. What is science-fiction? Hard sci-fi includes all the sciences: physical science, medicine, human physiology, and astronomy. Soft sci-fi includes human psychology, sociology and any interaction between sentient beings.

If science fiction writing interests you, come back in two weeks and hear how to take any of these ingredients, add a pinch of "what if?," a generous helping of imagination and make a memorable tale. S. Joan Popek is the author of the EPPIE 2000 winner THE ADMINISTRATOR. Her newest book is SOUND THE RAM'S HORN. She has published over 250 short stories, articles and poems as well. You can find out more about Jo Popek by visiting her web site at http://www.sjoanpopek.com/ And now, good night, everyone!

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