Instititute of Children's Literature

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Transcripts

"Mysteries: Creating Believable Heroes and Villains" with Vicki Erwin

Thursday, February 1, 2001

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, web editor of this site and author of 24 books for children and teens, as well as 100+ articles for children and adults.

Vicki is author of 12 middle grade mysteries (some series), 2 young adult mysteries, 3 early chapter mysteries, and other books. Titles in her Elizabeth Bryan Mystery Series include Who Kidnapped Jesus?, Secret in the Old Book, and Disappearing Card Trick.

Names color coded in blue are viewers with questions.

Interviews are conducted at 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for this evening and the web editor for this site. Tonight we're here to discuss "Mysteries: Creating Believable Heroes and Villains" with Vicki Erwin. This is my own personal favorite genre, so I'm really looking forward to tonight. Vicki has published 12 middle grade mysteries (some series), 2 young adult mysteries, and 3 early chapter mysteries, and she's here to share her expertise with us tonight. Welcome, Vicki!

Vicki: Thank you for having me. Hi, everyone!

Moderator: Vicki, it's so nice to have you back! You're widely published in the mystery field. Were you an avid mystery buff growing up too?

Vicki: I loved reading mysteries. I started out with the Boxcar children -- when there were only four books about them. Moved on to Trixie Belden and Nancy Drew.

Moderator: What do you like about writing mysteries?

Vicki: If you love a genre to read, then it's always intriguing to try to write in it. But for me the best part is figuring out the ins and outs of the puzzle. When it all fits together it's so satisfying! And it's always a challenge.

Moderator: Do you have any new mysteries you can tell us about?

Vicki: I've been writing some early chapter mysteries for Scholastic book clubs. They are for a new series called Scooby Doo and You. This was my first experience writing specifically for a book club market. And the worse thing about it is that they aren't available in bookstores, ONLY through the clubs. For the first time in several years (since I finished Scooby) I don't have a deadline. It's both scary and freeing. I'm working on an historical mystery, a time travel and an adult mystery.

Moderator: Whether writing a single title or creating a series, a mystery writer MUST be able to create believable heroes and villains. First Vicki, please give us some examples of stereotypical heroes and villains so we know what to avoid. Since you've written mysteries for early readers up to young adult, can you give some examples for the different age groups?

Vicki: I think something like Scooby Doo is a perfect example of stereotypes in both hero and villain. For example, the villain is always very, very bad and there's no doubt who it is. You always know exactly how one of the heroes is going to act and react. Scooby and Shaggy are always scared but come through. Fred is always brave; Velma is always smart. Of course these are cartoons and that's what you want to avoid in your character development. I think the key is having a character -- both hero and villain -- that has strengths and flaws, that doesn't always do the predictable thing. Well-rounded and believable -- lots of times stereotypes are so one-dimensional they aren't believable.

SaraJ: So are you saying that stereotypes DO sell well for the younger set of children?

Vicki: Some readers do like to know what to expect. And licensed characters give them just that.

Moderator: Why does it matter if the characters are stereotypes? A mystery is really just about the plot, right?

Vicki: Plot is very important in a mystery, yes. But one of the reasons that we go on in a story is because we care about the character or even identify with the character and we want to know what happens. We probably like characters with a few flaws better than we like the perfect one that we aren't able to identify with.

Moderator: Let's say our viewers are sitting down to write their first mystery. Let's talk about the "nuts and bolts" of how to make these main characters come alive. First, about the hero's/heroine's looks (size, height, hair color, hairstyle, clothing style): what's important to know?

Vicki: For the writer, it's important to know as much as possible about the character, and that means everything from looks to likes and dislikes to what kind of clothes they wear. I think readers respond to that kind of thing too. For example, you'd respond to a character who wears only the latest styles differently than you would to one who likes to dress in granny dresses. That would tell you something about the character. Sometimes you don't necessarily tell the reader everything you know about the character, but it's important for you to know how they react. I've never been quite sure from the writer's side how that's communicated, but it happens. Even hair color and size makes your readers respond in a certain way. Think about red hair vs. blond hair and your reaction to that.

MBVoelker: Do you ever get a character who won't "behave"? One that wants to do her (his) own thing and not follow the plot as you planned it?

Vicki: The first time a character didn't behave the way I wanted I was really surprised. In my second book, Mystery of the Secret Dolls, I planned to use a format that had worked in my first book. I had a female main character and a male friend who helped her solve the mystery. I liked that because it made the story as a whole more appealing to both boys and girls. In the second book, I introduced Bonny as the main character and Marc as the secondary character. I also had a third character, Lynette, who showed up in the second chapter. Pretty soon she was in the next chapter and the next, interfering in Bonny's and Marc's friendship. And finally I gave up and let her be the second lead.

keymoo: What rules do you follow to make characters believable?

Vicki: I don't know that I have any "rules." With Jamie, when I was thinking of her outside of writing time, it was almost as another child. I knew she had come to life. Lots of times I don't get a full blooded character in my first or even my second draft. Even the plot doesn't work out when the character isn't fully developed and believable. My son is working on a play to apply for a fellowship and I read it the other day to give some feedback. The parts that I didn't find believable were when the characters acted without a good reason. For example, he had two characters following a third because it worked to make the plot advance. I couldn't see a good reason for them to act the way they were because they had a good reason not to act that way. So, it wasn't believable. It's also a lot easier to see it in someone else's work than your own.

Ksue: Do you know all about the characters before you begin to write or do you learn about them as you go?

Vicki: I have a general idea of the sort of the person the character is, but I learn a lot as I go along. Sometimes I even know their quirks when I start out or their "flaw". Jamie was very shy and she blushed easily. Knowing that she blushed made her even more shy. The adult character I'm working with now has panic attacks and that's key not only to her character, but to the mystery. That helps when there's a connection between a character trait/flaw and the mystery. Jamie, in my first book, loved old things, including her house, so she was willing to go the extra mile to do anything to save it. When she found the old quilt the reader already knew she'd be interested because I'd set it up that way. Characters surprise you all the time so be prepared.

Cece: Do you base your characters on people you know?

Vicki: Sometimes but not completely. The great aunts in my second book were based on my grandmother and her sisters. But only in that they loved to cook and sew and make things. Kevin, the male character in my first book, was based on a boy I knew in grade school who always wanted me to do his math for him. But after that starting point, they diverge from the "real" person. The adult novel I'm working on uses real people more than I've ever done before. My husband says if it's ever published I won't have any friends left. But my feeling is that people never see themselves in negative characters.

Moderator: I've started to read so many mysteries where I didn't care if the hero solved the problem or not. Nothing much was at stake. Can you talk about this?

Vicki: I know exactly what you mean. I always try to have the main character have something at stake in the mystery. One time I was talking to a Nancy Drew editor and she said the Nancy Drew mysteries that were most popular were the ones where something happened to someone Nancy cared about. There was one where Nancy's father, Carson Drew, was kidnapped and kids loved it. In Jamie, her house was on the line. Her great great grandfather had built it and she'd lived there with her father who had died recently. She didn't want to move. It was another family connection in Secret Dolls. Bonny's aunt was going to lose her museum where they were displaying family dolls if Bonny failed. In the series I did, Elizabeth Bryan, I always tried to make the mystery personal, too. It gets harder the more books there are about a character. Even having a specific interest helps, like when I did a few Baby-sitters Club mysteries. Claudia was fun and easy to come up with plots for because she loves art so much. By making the plot revolve around art, it made it important to Claudia. And it all goes back, also, to the character. If the reader likes and identifies with the character and the character has something at stake in the mystery, the reader will want to see what happens.

Moderator: What are some good reasons your hero might want to solve the mystery? What could make it important?

Vicki: If it affects a friend, a family member, someone or something the "detective" cares about. When it's not family or friends, you have to work a little harder to establish the connection between the character and the "victim." In mystery series like Nancy Drew, the reader is reading for the mystery and it doesn't always mean as much to Nancy, except that her reputation as a detective is on the line and it's what the reader expects.

Moderator: Does it help to have the hero have some special skill or ability that will help solve the mystery?

Vicki: A character that is going to solve a mystery has to be smart, but not so smart as to turn kids off. Encyclopedia Brown is an example of a character with special ability, but he's still a kid. I've always like mysteries where the main character has some ESP. But I liked to read about the characters who were like me and solved the mystery anyway. It was my dream to run across a mystery in my neighborhood and solve it. So beyond resolve and a few smarts, I don't think they have to be that much above average. And if they are make sure they are still likable and not too strange.

christine collier: Are there any mystery series for the older teen? They seem to stop at the middle grade level but I wonder why, because they are popular again for adults.

Vicki: One of the things that happens to YA (young adult) readers is that they go on to adult books, too. Joan Lowery Nixon writes excellent mysteries for YA's. There's a Christian publisher that does a good YA mystery series and the name has completely escaped me. Nancy Drew Files was ostensibly for YAs but I think it went to middle graders. That YA group is a hard age group to reach.

Ksue: Do all of your character's traits relate to the mystery in some way even if it's in a small way?

Vicki: Not necessarily. Elizabeth loves to dance but that never played an important part in one of the mysteries. My characters usually like to read and, although that plays a part in that they sometimes have special knowledge, it's not crucial to the mystery. It's their basic nature --- curiosity, being able to overcome fear, some smarts -- that is important to solving the mystery.

wendymh: There are so many necessary ingredients in plotting a mystery and developing the character. When you write a magazine story, what can you safely leave out?

Vicki: I don't think it's so much leaving anything out, but presenting it in quicker strokes. The reader has to know enough to identify with the character and to have a shot at solving the mystery along with the character. It may not have as many clues or a subplot, but it has to have all the essential elements.

christine collier: Do we have an equivalent of a Nancy Drew, Trixie Belden, or Ginny Gordon in the present day that everyone knows her name immediately?

Vicki: My feeling is no. For awhile the Baby-sitters Club was the series for girls, but that ended several years ago. Science fiction, horror series have been more popular today, and Harry Potter.

penandink: How do you pick your names for your characters?

Vicki: I really have to think about names. It has to fit the character and sometimes I used friends' names for minor characters. Jamie came because my husband is James. Elizabeth Bryan is a combination of my daughter's name and my son's. I always wanted more kids so I use the names I'd thought up for those kids, too.

Maudy: What are the differences between a series character and one in a single book?

Vicki: There's always the possibility that a character from a single book will become a series character. But the main thing to keep in mind in a series character is that you're going to have to spend a lot of time and energy with that character, so you'd better like him or her a lot. I always want my single characters to change within the plot of one book. Jamie loses some of her shyness and gains confidence. Bonny develops a respect for family history and tolerance for small town life. But in the series, Elizabeth didn't have to change so quickly.

Moderator: Is it better for a series to have one main character (or one sleuth), or is it better to have a group, like the Baby-sitters Club?

Vicki: I've worked with both and both have advantages. I really liked Elizabeth and working out not only her mysteries but her personal life as well. With the Baby-sitters Club, it was fun to have different characters with different interests to come up with ideas. The series with one character vs. many may appeal to different readers, and there's a place for both. It depends on how you write and what you want to do with your series.

Moderator: Just out of curiosity, how could you tell your mystery should be a series or one book standing alone? What are some "signs" to look for?

Vicki: To be a little crass, if your publisher asks for another book then it's a series. Many times, however, it's a series from the beginning. Is there more to learn about this character? Is there a subplot line left unresolved? Sometimes the readers demand another book. Bruce Coville's My Teacher is an Alien not a mystery, but it was supposed to be one book. Readers demanded more and it became a four book series. The trend in publishing today is more toward a finite series, an eight book story arc for example. Kid readers aren't as hot on the never-ending series as they were with Baby-sitters, Goosebumps, Animorphs, and Sweet Valley. And booksellers don't want to devote that much shelf space to one series.

penandink: I don't understand what you mean by an arcing subplot or an 8 book story arc.

Vicki: An arcing subplot is one that continues through more than one book. In book one, Elizabeth's mother meets a man and they have a few dates. Elizabeth doesn't accept this at all. At the end of the first book, this isn't resolved. It isn't resolved in the second book either in fact. Each book takes that element of the story to a new level. An example of an 8 book arc is a new series coming out this summer -- not mine. It's a quest type story -- there's a belt with 8 jewels, each with a power. Someone steals the jewels and each book seeks to recover the stolen jewels. It takes 8 books to do that. With a mystery, you probably couldn't leave the whodunit part until the next book, but you could keep a subplot going.

Moderator: What makes a hero interesting for kids? How to do you get that special quirk and still have a character kids can identify with?

Vicki: This is a hard question! I feel like I'm copping out here but I'm not sure if it's anything that quantifiable. If it were that easy we'd all have characters with that special something. Does the character take on a life of his/her own? Does she seem real to you? This is where a writers' group or a reader can really help.

Moderator: Let's go now from the good guy to the bad guy. How would you define a villain, for our purposes tonight?

Vicki: The villain is the one who causes the mystery to happen. And he/she is not necessarily bad.

Moderator: Should a villain's looks make him stand out or blend in? A drab character that blends in sounds boring! But if his looks make him stand out, or his weird behavior, won't he be easy to spot as the "bad guy"?

Vicki: It's a balancing act. The villain has to act or look a certain way to be suspect, but it's not as much fun to know immediately because he/she is all dressed in black that it's the villain. Just like the hero can't be perfect, the villain isn't necessarily all bad.

MBVoelker: How do you create believable villains without making them too obvious? I've seen many stories with weak villains. They're dull.

Vicki: There has to be something of value in the villain. In Jamie, the villain was a respected community member and adults couldn't believe ill of him. But he didn't treat kids with the same respect so to Jamie he was suspect. Sometimes it works the other way. In one of my Elizabeth Bryan books, she wanted a man who was trying to date her mom to be the bad guy just because she didn't like him. She tried and tried to prove he was bad, but it didn't work. Make it a well-rounded character with something that the reader can believe in or at least doubt.

Cece: Do you try to create villains who have some redeeming traits?

Vicki: Absolutely! In my second book, the villain was overall a good person but had one fatal flaw she couldn't overcome and that's what made her commit the "crime."

menucha: I loved your book about Jamie because there really was no villain. Is it harder to write mysteries like this?

Vicki: Partly it's the age group. It wouldn't be that believable for a 10 to 12 year old protagonist to go up against a truly evil person. For this age group, I don't like to see a lot of violence so it mitigates the villain to some extent. The villain doesn't have to even be a person or there doesn't have to be person behind the "crime." In some of the mysteries for younger kids, like The Case of the Hungry Stranger, the villain is a dog. Someone has stolen a blueberry pie and the kids investigate. The mystery is solved when they find their dog with blue stains around his mouth (and surely the dog had redeeming qualities.)

bernie: How about villains? Do you have just one per book, or more than one? How do you choose or create those characters?

Vicki: I've only had one in my books, but you could have more. When I'm creating a villain, it's very important to me to know the why behind how he/she acts. Just as it's important for the hero to have a reason to pursue the mystery. It's important for the villain to have a believable reason for acting the way he/she does. And I'm also not sure I'm answering your question. For a mystery to be harder to solve, there needs to be other suspects, people who also have a reason to be behind the act that sets off the mystery or some other explanation. In kids' mysteries the adults are prone to tell them that they have overactive imaginations, and that's pretty much the way adults sometimes treat kids. The villain doesn't have to be an adult either. It can be another kid. In Who Kidnapped Jesus? there turned out to be no villain. It was more of a practical joke being played on Elizabeth.

penandink: How many other suspects do you try to have, to direct suspicion away from your real villain?

Vicki: There's no set number. And sometimes it's that nebulous hoodlum boy in the neighborhood or just the imagination. But to have that twist or surprise, you need two suspects who could be behind all the trouble. In Secret Dolls, there were at least two strong suspects besides the person who was the villain, as well as some boys in the neighborhood who had been caught vandalizing other property.

Maudy: Which are easier for you to create, villains or heroes?

Vicki: It's sometimes more fun to create a villain, but it's always harder for me to come up with their motivations. I also often have to go back and not make them so obvious. One of the things I've read about other writers, especially when a murder is involved, is how much fun it is to kill off people you're really mad at. I can see that. But I always know the main character first, then the mystery, then I struggle to come up with a villain and the why behind the action.

wendymh: Is it important that all characters are wholesome? Nowadays you see kids smoking, with earrings, wearing gang clothing, etc. Is it best to not go too far with extreme characters? What are the perimeters?

Vicki: In my second book, I have some boys drive by Bonny in a souped up car. They're smoking and give her a hard time. For this book to be used in classrooms in CA and TX, they had to take that part out of the book. If those traits are important to the story -- and they are part of life today -- then I wouldn't take them out to please someone else. If you're writing for the Christian market, some of those things won't play well. Keep your audience in mind and let that guide you -- the younger the reader, the less extreme you'll want to be. But I can't imagine too many teens who would be shocked by those things.

penandink: Do you always know who the villain will be when you start your book?

Vicki: Not always. One of the great challenges is for me to come up with that villain and the motive. I do have to know the who and the why before I get too far into the story to be able to get the clues in the right place.

occam: Are there any taboos for this age group?

Vicki: It depends on which age group. The younger the reader, the less scary, violent, disturbing. I used to say that murder probably wasn't appropriate for middle graders. Then I came up with a middle grade mystery with a murder at the center. Of course it hasn't sold, but no one has objected because of the murder. Then I said for YA's that any crime worked except for a sex crime. And even that taboo has been breached. Is it a situation that your main character can believably be in? That's one of the keys. For youngest readers, the mystery is usually more of a puzzle. Here's what we have, here are the clues, put it together -- like a lost purse or a found item. The older readers are ready for more personal and threatening crimes.

Bernadette: How would you stay away from having too many characters and can a mystery be overloaded? (What's a good number of main characters?)

Vicki: I've never been able to handle too many characters at a time. Earlier we talked about magazine stories and how you have to have all the elements, yet do it all more efficiently. How many characters do you need to move through the plot? Does each and every character move the story forward? We've all had those characters or those lines of prose that we just like because it sounds good. Those are the hardest to cut out, but if it doesn't fit or move the story along, you have to be brutal. You need the number of characters it takes to tell the story. Save the rest of them for another story where they play a better role.

penandin: Do you have a detailed outline of the plot, complete with all the clues and red herrings, before you start?

Vicki: For some of the series writing I've done, the editor has required an outline, although if it hasn't worked they are always open to revising the outline. When I write something I have the characters, the mystery, the villain and the ending before I start, but I don't know how it's all going to happen. Part of what keeps me writing is making those discoveries along the way. If I seem to be losing focus, I sometimes go back and make an outline of what I've already written to see what is important and what I can cut out, where the story seems to be heading. Once I do that, I usually can get back on track. I do think with mysteries, you have to make sure that you do have a direction and that each scene either sets the detective closer on the track of the solution or takes him/her further from it.

Cece: Do you always stay with one character's POV (point of view) or do you allow for more than one?

Vicki: In the Baby-sitters Club, the mystery is in one character's POV and then there are three chapters in another POV. But I tend to write in one POV and in third person. If you are going to have more than one POV, make sure you have a good reason, and for younger readers, make sure there is some pattern to it -- for example, alternate chapters by the various characters.

Cece: Do you use many subplots in the mysteries?

Vicki: I try to have subplots. I think the character's personal life is important to the reader. In Jamie and the Mystery Quilt, finding the missing quilt and finding out who stole antiques from the house are the mystery. But Jamie is also trying to earn money so they won't have to move, she's dealing with her first romance. She's dealing with her father's death and her mother's first boyfriend since that. Elizabeth had an arcing subplot that ran throughout the series -- her mother's romance and her growing acceptance of it, as well as the normal preteen problems in each book -- peer pressure, jealousy, all those emotions.

Ksue: Some mysteries I have read have all the clues occur in such a way that it seems unbelievable. How do you avoid this?

Vicki: Clues are really the biggest balancing act of all in mysteries. There have to be clues that move the character closer as well as further away. After you've created the world of your character, make sure that the clues fit into that world. When the character needs a clue and is walking down the street and sees a piece of paper, picks up the paper and it tells an important bit of information -- is that believable or is that what was easy for the author? It's not easy to come up with fresh and believable situations, so you have to make yourself not take the easy way out. If it doesn't seem quite right to you when you revise it, it probably won't seem right to the editor either.

busy: I like mysteries with lots of twists. Is it easier to create these twists going forward of working backward?

Vicki: I've always worked forward, so I would have to say that is easier. But I can't do it without knowing the end.

bernie: Should you try to find a niche in the genre that hasn't been done, for a series or stand alone, as they suggest for adult mystery writers?

Vicki: Publishers are always looking for fresh and original, so I say yes with qualification. When you think about something that hasn't been done it's more your spin on a particular thing than that it hasn't been done at all. It's always what YOU as the writer brings to the book that no one else can that makes it special.

bernie: Where do you come up with your plot ideas?

Vicki: I generally don't have trouble coming up with the initial idea. The historical mystery that I'm working on came about when I was talking to a friend. She told me a story about her grandfather on a cruise ship. He met a German man and it was right before World War I. While they were crossing the Atlantic they received word that the war had started. The man couldn't face going home to a war so he committed suicide. I thought immediately -- what if he didn't commit suicide? What if someone killed him and my character knew he wouldn't kill himself, so he sets out to prove it? Who Kidnapped Jesus? came from a newspaper column written by a St. Louis Post Dispatch columnist. I always make sure it's something that has captured my attention and won't let go. I want to write something about the 1904 World's Fair because it was so amazing. I've written a time travel using a button charm string because I walked into a button shop one day and thought there has to be a way to use these in a mystery. Ideas for plots are everywhere!

penandink: How much time do you spend writing vs. reading YA books?

Vicki: I read a LOT. One reason is that I have a day job in the book business and I have to know the books. Right now I'm also working on my MLS and I'm taking adolescent literature so I'm reading for that. Besides, one of the reasons I became a writer was because I love to read so much. It's important to know what's going on and what is being published -- that's my excuse anyway.

Cece: When writing young heroines do you draw on your own childhood?

Vicki: To some extent. I know that things have changed a lot since I was a kid. We didn't even have a TV. But those basic emotions of feeling like everyone is looking at you. Worrying incessantly about whether your hair is right, your clothes are right, parents doing embarrassing things, siblings -- all those things I draw upon. It's interesting that I often don't have a father figure in the family. My dad left us when we were kids and I'm sure that's why I write that way. However, my mother in law thought that meant that I didn't think my husband was a good father. So you can see how real life that really isn't real comes into play.

Moderator: I really hate to have to stop here, but I'm afraid we're out of time. Thank you so much, Vicki, for sharing such great tips and tricks for creating mystery heroes and villains. I know our viewers, and those who read the posted transcript, will be grateful for the help.

Vicki: I enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks when we'll be hearing from Jane Landreth on the subject of "Writing for the Children's Christian Market." From take-home papers, which include stories, articles, crafts and puzzles, to curriculum, writing for children and youth is a large part of the religious market. It takes special skills--as well as an understanding of readers' and editors' needs. If this interests you, come and hear this experienced children's Christian writer talk about this opportunity. And until then, good night, everyone!

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