Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Harold: is Harold Underdown, editor, and manager of the excellent web site, The Purple Crayon at http://www.underdown.org . It has feature interviews with children's authors, plus recommended books and articles about many facets of the craft of writing for children. Harold is also the author of THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO PUBLISHING CHILDREN'S BOOKS.

Moderator: is Kristi Holl, former web editor and author of 24 juvenile novels and the book for writers, WRITER'S FIRST AID. Her web site at http://www.KristiHoll.com has free articles and lessons on mystery writing, and offers a free monthly newsletter.

Names colored in blue are viewers who asked questions.

Interviews take place on Thursday nights: 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

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Moderator: Good evening, everyone! It's great to be back here, subbing for Mel who is in Russia at the moment. I'm your former moderator and web editor, Kristi Holl, and I'm delighted to be able to moderate tonight's chat with Harold Underdown. I've been a longtime fan of his web site, THE PURPLE CRAYON, where I subscribe to his free newsletter. Harold is also the author of the well reviewed book THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO PUBLISHING CHILDREN'S BOOKS. We are very lucky to have editor Harold Underdown with us tonight. Welcome, Harold!

Harold: Thanks, it's nice to be here.

Moderator: Harold, can you tell us your editorial background (when you started, where, your positions, etc.)?

Harold: Briefly, I got started at Macmillan, when it still existed, as an editorial assistant, and then moved over to Orchard. After a few years freelancing, I took a job in 1997 at Charlesbridge as Senior Editor. I worked for 3 years there, ending up as Editorial Director, and then left to become VP, Editorial for ipicturebooks, a company attempting to create a market for children's books in ebook form.

Moderator: What kind of training or schooling did you have in order to become an editor?

Harold: Much like most writers, I'm like most editors--my training was on the job. Being an assistant is like being apprenticed. I did take courses in copyediting and book design while I was at Macmillan, but found that they were no substitute for experience.

Moderator: What kinds of titles do you edit, and what authors?

Harold: I've edited just about every age group and genre from young picture books to YA, and both fiction and nonfiction. People can see a list of some of the books I've edited on my web site, at http://www.underdown.org/hdubooks.htm. Also, there are interviews with me listed on my articles page, at http://www.underdown.org/articles.htm, which tell you more about what I have done at various points. I am particularly interested in nonfiction and multicultural texts, but I'm really a generalist.

Moderator: Can you tell us what you're editing now (in general terms anyway?)

Harold: Right now I'm editing a 4th grade math textbook for McGraw-Hill, a full-time but not permanent job. I just finished editing another fictionalized biography in the reissues of the Childhood of Famous Americans Series that are being published by Patria Press. Basically, I'm freelancing while I look for another position in trade publishing--publishers aren't doing well now, so it may be some time before I find a new position to my liking.

Moderator: What age groups for nonfiction do you especially enjoy editing?

Harold: Good question! I loved the illustrated nonfiction by Holling Clancy Holling when I was a kid--books such as MINN OF THE MISSISSIPPI--and this is still a favorite area. More substance than a 32-page picture book, but still integrates illustration and text, unlike older nonfiction. His books are great for 8- to 10-year-olds. Some part of me is still 8 years old. I am happy to edit for other age groups, but for some reason this age especially resonates for me. I think most editors have a sweet spot like this.

Silverdove: For ebooks, how does one get their book illustrated?

Harold: You want to publish an original ebook, I assume. I should say that when I was at ipicturebooks most of the books we did were licensed from the original publisher, and then converted into ebook form. Licensing is likely to be the biggest part of the ebook market for some time to come. For an original ebook, you would need to find a publisher, who I would think would provide the illustrator. Or you could self-publish, in which case you would need to find the illustrator. Sorry to be so general, but your question raises a lot of issues that zoom off in different directions.

cup: Is iPicturebooks still functioning?

Harold: Not really. They ran out of money last summer and I was laid off. Since the company is owned by Byron Preiss, he has kept the web site active and is working to find more funding. But after so many months, I doubt he will find it. He can keep it ticking over because he runs a packaging company. I have been working on an article on children's ebooks in general and the ipicturebooks story in particular and hope to post it on my web site in the next few months. Complicated story.

mbvoelker: How do you know if a manuscript is a board book, a novelty book, a toddler book, or an early picture book? I have several pre-K pieces that I don't know how to classify for submitting.

paige: You said publishers aren't doing well right now. Do you mean trade publishers or publishers in general? Book and magazine publishers? And why are they not doing well?

Harold: I meant children's book publishers in particular, but it's true of the wider publishing industry too. It's the economy, it's the reduced spending on education and libraries. For magazines, I read that there has been a large drop-off in advertising compared to two years ago. Children's magazines don't have ads, but they are also affected, since people are being more cautious about their spending.

cup: What topics aren't covered in kids books that should be?

Harold: There's such an amazing range of topics covered in children's books today that I can't honestly think of any that aren't. In any case, the best way to choose what to write about it is to write about what you want to write about. Most likely there are already a dozen books or more on the same subject. Doesn't matter, if you can find a fresh approach.

Moderator: How did you come to write THE COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO PUBLISHING CHILDREN'S BOOKS (2001)?

Harold: Now that's an interesting story, too long to go into here! I was approached by them, after they came across my web site when seeking an author for a book they had already decided they wanted to do. They wanted the book in 3 months, we negotiated, and eventually the book got completed. Now I'm working on a revision, mainly to add material for illustrators, which I thought should be in there in the first place.

Moderator: I cannot imagine doing a book of that magnitude in just three months! Did you get to choose the co-author? And did you choose to collaborate because of the short time frame?

Harold: I was reluctant and only agreed when they offered a co-author with Idiot's Guide experience, and extended the deadline. Unfortunately, my co-author knew nothing about children's books, and so I wrote most of the book myself.

Moderator: What kinds of resources for illustrators are you now including?

Harold: Much of what is in the book is already useful for illustrators, so we are making minor revisions throughout, and adding chapters on submissions, portfolios, artists reps, and other nitty-gritty stuff.

Moderator: What are some things readers could expect to find in this "complete" guide to getting published in the children's market? What kinds of topics are covered?

Harold: It might help to start by saying what it's not. It's not a market guide. Children's Writers' and Illustrator's Market does that. It's not a writing guide. There are lots of those, and people should choose one they feel comfortable with. The book is intended to cover everything that a market guide and a how-to book DON'T cover. It's a general guide to the process, intended to be useful for everyone from a beginner to someone with several published books under their belt. Some of the subjects covered: how your motives affect your writing, a guide to the various genres and age groups, submissions tips, what happens at a publisher, what makes an editor tick, how to help market your book. And we have a great glossary of publishing terms, a list of recommended books and web sites, and sample cover letters. There's a complete table of contents, some sample chapters, and other materials from the book at http://www.underdown.org/cig.htm.

Moderator: Where can this book be purchased?

Harold: Anywhere you like, online or off -- but I'd prefer that you buy it from the links on my web site, because the site then earns a commission!

connie h: What are the chances of selling an out-of-print text again?

Harold: Frankly, not good. For one thing, so many books go out of print so quickly these days. Most publishers won't even look at them, on the assumption that if one company is no longer making money on a book, then another one wouldn't either. If your book got some awards or had particularly good sales, then some of the smaller publishers might look at it, but it's an uphill battle. Your best option might be self-publishing, as Joi Nobisso does through her personal company, Gingerbread House. I think ebooks will also become a good option for OP books. But there isn't enough of a market yet.

barbk: Can an unpublished author still break in w/o an agent?

Harold: Yes. Yes. Not easy, but yes. With picture books in particular, since the money is less. It's very hard to get an agent before you are published. Just don't bang your head against closed doors at the Big Guys. Get started without an agent at a smaller company, and before you know it the agents will come to you. Or at least you'll start meeting them! And you may find, as some do, that you don't ever need an agent.

gladys: Should I send my middle-grade ms. in a bubble envelope?

Harold: No need to that I can think of. Manuscript pages aren't fragile, after all.

dawgprint1: I was told by a member of a critiquing group that my picture books had too much description, that the pictures should show the setting and you should just tell the story. What do you, as a publisher, look for in a picture book?

Harold: I do look for a strong story, but as with many things, how much is too much description is often a matter of taste. Find some classic picture books and some recent successful ones and try typing up the text out of the book. Take a look and see how much description there is. You'll find different approaches, but definitely less description than in a novel. Or, at least, small bits of those topics.

Quillster: I'm developing a series of story ideas around the same character(s). As I see it, the stories could be written for several different age groups/book formats. Besides writing for the current 'hot' market niches, what should I consider in the interest of narrowing my options for target readership or book form?

Harold: Wow. You are really making life difficult for yourself. It's hard enough to sell one book. I think there must be a "natural" age group for the subjects and stories that interest you. Start from the stories, not the characters, or you will never figure out what you most want to say. And you need to figure out what you most want to say. If you just try to tailor them to the market, you will not do your best writing, and then all is lost. Sorry to be so blunt, but you could put yourself through a lot of grief.

kauthor: I have many friends who are children's therapists and they say there is a tremendous need for real stories for kids addressing real issues. Do you know any publishers who publish serious kid issues in picture book form as opposed to self-help guides for kids?

Harold: There's Magination Press, which is run by the APA. And look around. Many publishers publish the occasional "topic" book.

del: Harold, will a smaller publisher be more "open" to and willing to take on new authors?

Harold: Yes. Absolutely. They have to be. We certainly were at Charlesbridge.

jand871: Do you still offer personal critique services?

Harold: Yes, but at the moment I've got that revision of the Idiot's Guide to do. Get onto my email newsletter on my site and you can hear when I'm done.

Moderator: Harold, can you give the URL for your site again please?

Harold: http://www.underdown.org/

gladys: What kind of humor do publishers like? (dialogue, etc...)

Harold: All kinds of humor! Except for humor that only adults appreciate, like the subtler forms of irony. What's best depends on the age group, of course.

jand871: When will the revised edition be released?

Harold: January, they tell me. Again. I'll post news of that on my web site.

maude: What about if you have been published with an online magazine?

Harold: That's nice, and if the magazine is for children, it is relevant experience, but it won't sell a book. Do mention something like that in a cover letter, but what matters is the manuscript.

silverdove: Do you see the book business picking up in the coming years? If so, what types of books and age groups do you see will be in high demand?

Harold: Frankly, I don't see a turnaround soon. We are as a society putting more resources into the military and security, and at the same time cutting taxes, and we are cutting school and library budgets. That's happening at the federal, state, and local level. And children's books are very dependent still on schools and libraries, though some of the larger publishers are chasing the consumer market. They have to. But that BIG trend won't stop INDIVIDUAL wonderful books from being published. One current demographic trend is that novels are doing relatively better than were five or ten years ago. There are more kids in that age group. But does that mean you should write novels, instead of picture books? Absolutely not.

jicar76: Is historical fiction still a hot trend for middle readers?

Harold: I wouldn't call it a hot trend. But historical fiction is certainly a healthy area. The last two Newbery winners were historical fiction. When was the last time that happened? I don't know.

jand871: What stands out to you as a successful manuscript?

Harold: That is really an impossible question to answer though you will hear editors attempt to do so. I can rationalize it, and talk about plot and character and voice and such, but in the end, a story has to make an emotional connection to me. And it's very difficult to predict the NEXT story that will do that.

gladys: For what reasons does a manuscript get rejected? (grammar, etc..)

Harold: Grammar can be fixed, though you should certainly polish what you send in. More likely, the writer hasn't found anything new or original to say. Take a look at my article, Getting Out of the Slush Pile, at http://www.underdown.org/slush.htm, and you'll find some of the reasons manuscripts get rejected. But in the end there are as many reasons manuscripts get rejected as there are manuscripts.

Moderator: You said the IDIOT book talks about "what makes editors tick". I know that that is something ALL writers want to hear more about. Could you talk about that here? For example, as an editor, what are some things new writers need to know about working with editors? How should editors be approached?

Harold: The main thing to remember is that we are human being. We are not gods, we are just cogs in corporate machines (usually, but not always, of course). Treat us like human beings and we'll appreciate it. That's not to say that you should just be nice. Set limits. Don't wait forever to hear from someone, for example. Cultivate a relationship that is both professional and friendly and you'll benefit.

Moderator: How and when is it appropriate to contact editors?

Moderator: Any tips on working with editors when negotiating contracts?

Harold: Ask questions. Always ask. You won't look stupid. If you don't understand something in a contract, it's entirely possible that your editor doesn't either. Ask for changes, but don't expect to get everything you want. Take a look at my chapter on contracts, which is one of the sample chapters on my web site. You'll find them listed at http://www.underdown.org/cig.htm.

Harold: You mean, are publishers asking for more? But how could we--we've always asked for everything. Just joking. The only new area of contention has been about e-rights, where publishers have been trying to lock up the area, which previously wasn't even covered in many contracts. If I'm not addressing your question correctly, please let us know.

lizr: Are there books by editors about writing that you recommend [aside from your own ;o) ]

Harold: There's one with a title that has something to do with the forest and the trees, which I HAVEN'T read, but have heard is good. If anyone knows the book I mean, tell Kristi!

Moderator: I have that book. THE FOREST FOR THE TREES by Betsy Lerner. "An Editor's Advice to Writers" is the subtitle.

ckm: If you have a book out with one house and several more under contract with that same house but they reject a manuscript that goes on to sell at another house, then do you start at the bottom again at the new publisher in terms of the advance you'll be offered at the new house?

Harold: If you sell the ms. elsewhere, do the best you can for an advance. The advances you get from the first publisher won't necessarily hinder you or help you. But the fact that you are published at all DOES help. You can certainly let the new publisher know the range of advance you expect. Whether they will match it is up to them.

gladys: What makes an editor view an author as amateur?

Harold: Ah, that's an interesting question. Generally, not acting like a professional. Handwritten letters, unpolished prose, a lack of understanding of the way things are done. Claiming to be the next Dr. Seuss. Any number of things!

spudsie: HOW do you make yourself write when you don't feel like it?

Harold: Fear of missing a deadline helps! I'm NOT a writer. I like editing, I like working with someone else's writing. Filling a blank page is MUCH harder, and I respect writers enormously who actually manage to do that day after day. I never would have finished the Idiot's Guide if they didn't have a well-structured way of doing one. First I had to write a detailed outline, which is a great way to start with nonfiction, I think. And the books had an existing format into which I could pour what I already knew. I think you've just got to start. If you can't do the first page, then write the 23rd page, or write a character study. Set a number of hours a day when you will sit in your chair. And write. Write nonsense, if nothing else. Just keep going. I like a book called Writing Down the Bones and Wild Mind, both by Natalie Goldberg.

silverdove: As an editor how many mss. do you read per day/week? (in general) Are you given the mss. or do you pick out from the slush pile?

Harold: I'm not in a slush-reading position right now, but when I was, I probably read at least 20 a week. I'm a hands-on person, so although assistants and young editors were reading much of the slush at Charlesbridge, as they should have because that's how to get started, I made a point of reading some myself. Most editors do.

Moderator: Your web site, The Purple Crayon, is recognized today as one of the best sources of information about the children's publishing industry. What is your web site's purpose?

Harold: To provide information about children's book publishing. I speak and write on what I do all the time, and the web site allows me to reach a wider audience.

Moderator: When you have time later, as a consultant, who do you work with and what kinds of services do you offer?

Harold: All editorial services for children's book writers and publishers, from critiques to project editing.

Moderator: Where can our viewers and future transcript readers find out more about your services and contact you?

Harold: I work with individuals and publishers, and there is more information at http://www.underdown.org/pced.htm

Moderator: Many newer writers ask about finding an editorial consultant or book doctor. There are a number of scams out there. Can you give them some guidelines on what to look for so they know they are getting legitimate help for their money?

Harold: I tell people to start with a local critique group or an SCBWI conference, where they can get free or inexpensive feedback. If you really feel working with a book doctor is worth it, look at their background. Is it relevant? Can they tell you about books they've worked on? Ask questions, just like you would if you were hiring an accountant or a lawyer. Also, I think the SCBWI has a list of book doctors they have checked out, which is available to members.

Jan: I've done a nonfiction piece for a top-drawer magazine that I'd like to expand into a book. Would it be off-base to include this clip with my book proposal, as a capsule overview of the topic?

Harold: No, not at all.

Moderator: How has children's publishing changed since you've been involved in the business?

Harold: The big change is that the library market has shrunk in comparison to the consumer market, with many consequences. Also, the business in more concentrated, with only five or six companies dominating it. Again, there are articles on this subject on my web site.

Moderator: What are some of the consequences for writers (new and established) of having the library market shrink so much?

Harold: Publishers are looking for material that will work for the consumer market. The biggest change has been in nonfiction, where library-oriented series publishers have cut back a lot. Fortunately, there are opportunities to do wonderfully creative single titles, so I don't think there is a net loss. And there are still publishers like Holiday House who can focus on quality and live on the library market. If anything, the range of what's being published is wider now than it was, say, 30 years ago.

Moderator: Since five or six companies dominate, does that mean a writer can only submit to five or six editors before a manuscript is stuck back in a drawer?

ckm: Re. editorial letters: Is the fewer strokes (less hand-holding and compliments) given in a letter any indication of the stage the editor thinks the author/editor relationship is at? Do fewer strokes indicate that the relationship has moved to the next level?

Harold: I don't understand, sorry. I'm not sure I get this, but I know that the relationship between editor and writer can be very personal, and can change a lot. It works best if both parties put themselves into it fully.

Moderator: I think I can add something here, if that's okay. I recall in the early days when I sold my first couple of books that I got a lot of hand-holding and long explanations of things and handled more with kid gloves. Then after a few books with one publisher, the editor's letters sounded more like one line saying, "Loved the book..." and then there were two pages of revision suggestions, and if I'd been brand new, I would have thought she hated it! I guessed she figured I didn't need the hand-holding anymore (but I missed it!)

gladys: Are there children's magazines that don't buy all rights?

lizr: How hard is it to get published with the small independent publishers listed in IPG ?

Harold: Don't know if I can generalize! But be realistic, if a small press only publishes a few books a year, you may not have any better chance with them than with a midsize independent like Charlesbridge or Pelican or Boyds Mills.

barbk: How "special" are special notes you get from editors? e.g. does it mean you're in the top 5%?

Harold: Getting a note might mean you'd be in the top 5% if you got personal rejections from an editor at Charlesbridge or Orchard or a similar publisher. Getting a personal letter, at least from a company like the ones I've worked for, is special. Might not be true for all publishers, and might not be true if you just get a scribbled note.

agy: Can you give us some pointers or advice on plotting (like exercises or book recommendations)?

Harold: Not really. I get very hands on as an editor when I run into a plot problem, but I can't say that there are techniques I can think of that work in all situations.

Moderator: I'm sorry, but we're out of time tonight. Harold, thank you so much for coming tonight and sharing your expertise on children's publishing with us. I've learned a lot myself, and I'm sure you're going to get an influx of visitors to your web site in the next day or two! Thank you for your time.

Harold: Thank you! I can't believe I've been typing for two hours! Good night, all.

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