Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Harold: Thanks, Jan. It's good to be here!

Jan: Now, I know that your Guide to Publishing Children's Books is in its third edition, which is very wow, and I have a shiny copy of it which I'm going to send someone later in this chat. Tell me, how did you change it for this third edition? Any new goodies?

Harold: Yes, there are a number of changes. I added two chapters--one on how to choose a how-to, since there are so many good writing guides out there. And one on self-publishing. I also updated parts of it that have material that gets dated. Such as the chapter on trends, and a section where I show how to analyze a catalog. And there are revisions and little additions throughout.

Jan: Now, for folks who haven't read the book yet, it's definitely different from a "writing guide" -- how do you describe it to starry eyed folks asking...what kind of book is it?

Harold: That's right, it's not a writing guide. It's not meant to be. It's a guide to the business and the entire publishing process. From getting started as a writer to what to do when your books go out of print. Along the way there are chapters on submissions, on working with an editor. On marketing, agents, book genres, types of publishers. I really tried to provide a comprehensive guide, for beginners AND for people with a few books or magazine articles under their belt. If anyone wants to find out more, just go to the "home page" for the book at http://www.underdown.org/cig.htm -- There you will find two sample chapters, the table of contents, an expanded version of the Resources Guide, and various other thiings.

Jan: How do you decide what to add to each new edition -- just when I think you've got everything that could possibly be needed, you find something new -- how do you do that?

Harold: Well, things do change. Certainly I have to make note when graphic novels are now a part of the children's book market, and they just weren't seven years ago. When it comes to the new material, I get suggestions and questions from people at my web site. That's why I added the "How-to chapter." And self-publishing is a much more commonly used option than it used to be, so I thought I should provide guidance. And warnings.

Jan: Now, you just gave us one peek at another excellent resource that you're the creator of -- http://www.underdown.org -- known as The Purple Crayon. I think it was one of the first sites I ever bookmarked...and I know it's grown. What kinds of things will writers find there?

Harold: There's a real mix of material, from my old favorite "Getting Out of the Slush Pile" to a guide to agents with some recently added case studies. Stuff on trends, on the cost of a picture book, a column on writing by Margot Finke, as well as interviews with editors and others. There are about 300 pages in all. I try to add new material that I don't see elsewhere or that fills a gap on the site. It's a resource.

Jan: So, what on earth made you wake up one morning and think, gosh, I'm not buried in enough work, I think I'll start The Purple Crayon?

Harold: It started small, when the web was small. In 1996, I put up a page that had some favorite links, and then gradually started to add things. First I added some pieces that were based on presentations. I had done at an SCBWI conference or written for their Bulletin. And it just grew!

Jan: Now, I see your name on conference schedules all over...do you enjoy conference speaking or do folks beg? I, of course, would have been happy to beg to get you here :-)

Harold: I enjoy speaking, though I cut down on it over the past few years, because it didn't seem worth the time away from my family. This year I made a decsion to get out to conferences so I could promote the new edition of my book. And Jan, you do not need to beg to get me to come and chat here!

Jan: Okay, now I know a lot of our audience is just breaking into the business. So as a brand new writers, what advice would you give me to help me make the best decisions and not get snagged by some of the publishing bad'uns that the Internet seems to draw out of the woodwork?

Harold: Use resources like Children's WRiter's and Illustrator's Market, which keeps an eye out for you. Check out new publishers via Preditors and Editors, the Absolute Write Water Cooler, and/or Verla Kay's discussion boards. If you don't know those resources, you can easily Google for them.

Jan: Now, I know sometimes folks get emails...I get them too...from folks offering to publish them kind of out of the blue...or offering to represent them kind of out of the blue...As an editor, how many times did you end up soliciting folks whose names just happened to be on mailing lists or discussion boards?

Harold: I don't. And I don't know anyone who does. And you know the saying, "If it sounds too good to be true..." You really have to have your antennae up. There are plenty of scams and shady people online, just as in the real world. Sorry, an additional thought on the previous: And there are lots of good people and good publishers too, I hasten to add.

Jan: I've heard a lot of writers lately espousing the idea that publishing is something you "work up to" so you need to start out sending your books to POD publishers or self-publishing and then you can "work up to" the trade publishers -- how do you feel about that concept?

Harold: Good question. I don't think that it works that way. If you want to get published by a royalty-paying publisher, your best chance of success will be if you put ALL of your energy into working toward that...working on your writing skills, your knowledge of the business, your contacts. And if you put effort into self-publishing, it's a distraction. I tell people that they need to ask themselves what they want to do. Do they want a career as a writer? Then they need to aim for the traditional publishers. Do they want to publish just ONE book, and they don't care about becoming a writer? Then it's OK to self-publish. Also, self-publishing is a lot of work. It's hard to do well. Writers considering it when they are only just putting their toe in the water should go down the traditional path. If they get nowhere irn 3 or 5 or 7 years, however many they are williing to put into it, THEN self-publish--and by that point they will know more and be able to self-publish far more successfully. There are a number of articles on my site, as well as the chapter in my book, that address this. See http://www.underdown.org/self-publishing.htm I even did a couple of pieces on people who successfully self-published.

Jan: Okay, another question -- as an editor, how much attention did you pay to past publication credits in magazines?

Harold: It's good to see. It definitely shows someone is serious. And I do know people who have either moved from magazines to book publishing or do both.

Jan: Okay, I need to pop in an audience questions before people throw rocks. Okay, this next question is one I'm asked a lot so I'm interested in your input...

Jan: If a person got stuck in some kind of scam publisher...is their work dead forever?

Harold: A nasty problem. How does one disconnect from a scam? Well, if the contract you have with them allows you to pull it then pull it. If not, chalk it up to experience. And write another poem. There are sometimes contracts with some of these places that give you your rights back after a few years. it really depends on the contract.

Harold: That depends on the contest. There are tons of local and state contests of various types all over the country that won't mean much of anything to an editor. The standard their books must meet is just so much higher. A major contest like the Delacorte novel one is about the only kind that will have an impact. Sorry, but that's just the way it is, at least as far as the major publishers are concerned.

Jan: Rain, actually won the Highlights Fiction Contest -- so that seems fairly cloutish? Would that be worth a mention when marketing a book?

Harold: Oh, that's a good one. Of course that's worth mentioning. It won't sell a manuscript on its own but it might get a request to see it if mentioned in a query letter.

Harold: Which kind of book sells better? OK, sweeping generalization time: paperbacks sell in greater volume, but hardcovers are more expensive, and SOME review sources will only look at hardcovers. Some kinds of book ONLY get published as PBs, some go into paperback after a few years.... The market you're in will be a major determining factor of the format, and your publisher will choose the one that will provide the best income for both of you.

Harold: Nowadays, yes. Just don't overdo it and send it to every publisher you can find. For one thing, if you revise it, you might want to send it out again, but you'll already have exhausted the possibilities. Target your manuscript to a chosen few, tell them it's being simultaneously submitted, and of course, follow their guidelines. There are still some pubs. who expect exclusive submissions.

Harold: It won't hurt. Like being a member of SCBWI, that doesn't distinguish you from all the OTHER graduates or SCBWI members, and there are many, but if someone is an ICL graduate or an SCBWI member they are generally more clued in than if they are neither. In my experience.

Harold: There are MANY quick ways! You can find some of them in http://www.underdown.org/slush.htm. A few examples: Sending a novel to a nonfiction publisher. Sending a handwritten manuscript. Claiming to be the next Dr. Seuss or JK Rowling (and that's in your cover letter, of course!)

Jan: Okay, I have a question...it's about the mythical "black ball" -- do editors really remember writers who do the doofy stuff that gets them into the rejection pile or is it pretty much, out of office--out of mind?

Harold: Well, when I was an assistant at the late lamented Macmillan Children's Books, the assistants from various imprints had lunch together in the staff cafeteria. And one thing we talked about were the really over the top strange or overly aggressive or otherwise "doofy" (good technical term, Jan) submissions. WHO sent them wasn't the point. We did not have a list of people to avoid. If someone REPEATEDLY did something weird, we would remember them, but there are very few people who attain that status. If you make a beginner's mistake, it's highly unlikely that anyone will remember it six months later. It's just a mistake. You'd have to do more to win undying infamy.

Harold: There's no one first thing. When we start reading, we are looking for reasons to reject. If it's poorly written we want to get on to ones with more promise as fast as we can. If we get a few pages in and the writer hasn't disqualified themselves, then we start to read more seriously. If we get pulled into the story, we do keep reading. What pulls us in? No one thing. A compelling story, believeable and engaging characters--the good stuff. We want books we love.

Harold: I don't know. I've never written one. If I were you, I'd ask this of other writers, perhaps on Verla Kay's boards.

Jan: One thing to keep in mind is that a lot more writers send out their work too early than too late. Take your time. It's not a race. And polish. For her picture books, Linda Sue Park once said she rewrites every line ten times just to be certain she's written it the best it can be.

Harold: Good writers are good revisers more than anything, I've come to believe.

Harold: Don't bother. Here's why: http://www.underdown.org/editors-names.htm It's just not all that useful to know that, though I know many people believe it is. Read the article--I wrote it to address that question.

Jan: Hey, great...I love it when we have whole articles for my questions!

Harold: Thanks. I've got more. I just don't want to cause an exodus from the chat.

Jan: I'm assuming tenzin means a story from another culture? Specifically, in this case, Tibet.

Harold: No, of course not. One of my interests is multicultural material. Having said that our culture is generally not all that interested in other cultures, and I think that the larger, more commercial publishers are going to be less interested in such stories. But there are other possible homes to be found. You need to do your research. Oh, and there is an article on my site on writing multicultural children's books -- http://www.underdown.org/multicul.htm.

Jan: Good, another article...I think we should see if we can ask a question that doesn't have an article...a test! But really, the Purple Crayon is great. If you haven't checked it out -- do check it out. There's so much there. I know I've found answers I needed.

Harold: Acquiring an agent isn't the easiest thing in the world--in fact in some ways it's harder than finding a publisher, especially if you aren't published. And it's still quite possible to get published without one. I don't care if a writer has an agent or not, actually, as long as the agent is a reasonable person to work with. My primary relationship is with the writer. There's a chapter on agents in my books that addresses this and other questions about agents. And you can read it online at http://www.underdown.org/cig_3e_ch17.htm. This is a good question to ask other writers too. Laurie Halse Anderson was at the New England SCBWI and among other things talked about not having an agent for her first few books.

Harold: Dear Editor, I enclose [title], a [genre] story of [#] words. I hope you enjoy it. Yours sincerely, katf

Harold: Seriously, cover letters are NOT important. You should have one, because it's the professional thing to do, but the editor wants to read the manuscript. Query letters are more of a pitch, and more difficult. And you can find an article on both on my web site, and sample letters in the appendix of my book.

Harold: That depends. People do notice the big sellers, as well as the books getting "buzz" or starred reviews. But the vast majority of books don't get noticed in that way by people at other publishers. They have too many other things to do. If your first book sells reasonably well, though, and you are sending a manuscript to a different publisher, you certainly can mention that.

Jan: Harold, this is just a "do you know" question -- but do you know if publishers value on-line buzz much? I know I know more about writers if they do a lot of online stuff, but I'm not really the target audience. Do you think online buzz really reaches teens and kids?

Harold: I don't know. My impression is that it can make a difference with teen titles. I don't think it does with other books. But I don't know.

Jan: Let's run through a couple of the email questions so the emailers don't think I don't love them...

Harold: OK, some very different questions there. Re resumes: Most children's book publishers don't expect to see a resume with a submission. And if you've never been published, you can't claim any credits. That's OK. Don't pull in extraneous credits, such as an academic article or something else not related to writing for children. To research Canadian publishers, see the useful article on my site at http://www.underdown.org/canada.htm -- it includes links to market guides that list Canadian publishers. And about local publishers... Market guides will tell you where publishers are located, though I'm a bit puzzled as to why you are looking for a publisher in such a specific location. Do you need a local publisher? One way to find a local publisher if you've written a book on local history or something like that is to browse in local indendent bookstores. If there's already someone publishing books like that, they'll have them.

Harold: Well, don't worry about this too much. If I were you I'd send this to your editor in the same way you currently communicate. If you usually communicate by email, send it by email. If you usually write letters, send it by real mail. But since you have a relationship, it probably doesn't matter much.

Harold: Questions about dealing with agents might be better asked on a writer's discussion group, such as Verla Kay's discussion boards. I don't have an agent myself, and I only deal with agents as an editor. But my thoughts, for what they are worth: If the agent and writer truly have parted ways amicably, it seems to me that the agent should be willing to tell the writer where the proposal was submitted. If the agent is not, the writer needs to make the best of it. You'll have more than one possible work to submit in your career, after all, so be up front with possible agents about the situation. A new agent might choose to lead with a different proposal and send out the problematic one later.

Harold: Know the needs of the publisher. Get some of their books. Get their catalog. Be prepared to write a proposal that includes an outline of your book (or series, if that is what you propose), a sample chapter, information about how the topic fits into school curriculums, comparisons to existing similar series. There's a lot of work needed before you can land a contract.

Harold: : You're looking for the steps to follow? Different writers have different processes, but you definitely need to work from the big to the small, as it were. Start with big issues--plot problems, characterization issues, and the like. Tackle one area at a time. Don't worry about line-editing till the big problems are fixed, and deal with proofreading at the end.

Harold: That's a very general answer, but all I can give you in this context. I'd suggest browsing through some writing guides until you find one that addresses this in a way that feels write to you. Here's a list I compiled: http://www.underdown.org/writing-guides.htm.

Jan: Okay, we're going to give Harold just a second to stand and stretch since we're working him to a nub tonight...and I'm going to announce who won the book drawing. This is for a shiny new copy of the THIRD edition of The Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Children's Books. And the winner is... Michele Peterson! Congratulations Michele, I'll be dropping you an email to get your mailing address so we can send this right out.

Jan: Now, back to grilling Harold.

Harold: In general, yes. They only have a narrow window for sales. Of course, just about every publisher DOES have holiday books, but they may be by big names or be perennial sellers, and the publisher doesn't want another. As with any area, don't go into it because it looks like an are of opportunity. Go into it because you just HAD to write that story.

Harold: Oh, you don't want to get me started on No Child Left Untested! You really don't. The school and library nonfiction market is actually considerably weaker than it was, say, ten years ago, partly because the schools have less money to spend on real books. They have to spend money on testing materials instead. We can only hope that with a change of adminstration in DC and the dawning realization around the country that there are OTHER ways to improve the schools, things will change. I urge all of you to go on the websites of the presidential candidates and check their education policies. Not talked about much at all, but they've put them up. And they are very different.

Harold: No, it just won't help all that much. It does say you have worked with a publishing company, and that's a plus.

Harold: Well, that rule only applies to writers trying to illustrate, or asking their brother-in-law to illustrate. If your work as an illustrator is of professional quality, publishers want to see it. Especially nowadays with editors under pressure to produce. A writer-illustrator is seen as a good option. Less work for the publisher. And there is, of course, an article that addresses this on my site.

Harold: Weeeeel, that depends on how creative you are, and with what kind of publisher! I would not be too creative with a school and library NF publisher, for example. But so long as you don't go too far, and for example include food with a proposal for a cookbook, this might be OK

Harold: Only if they are necessary. Telling the illustrator what the MC looks like: not necessary. Telling the illustrator that the illustration needs to show that what a character is saying is wrong: could be necessary. An illustrator knows much more about illustration than the typical writer, just as a writer knows more about writing than the typical illustrator! So... As a general rule, let them do their job, and you may be pleasantly surprised. Published authors tell me how they are often pleased by what the illustrator finds or adds to their stories..

Harold: Yes, but I would try to avoid it. In the admittedly unlikely event that two imprints wanted to acquire two mss. of yours at the same time, there would be a bit of a kerfuffle and most likely you would be assigned to one or the other. I also have to say that I don't see the need to do this. In spite of all the consolidation of the last few years, there are stiill more than a few publishers to choose from.

Harold: I think so and I hope so. I think it's nice to have another format option available. Note that although there has been a lot of buzz about graphic novels, .. there still are fairly small numbers of them published. But the genre is fairly new to children's books, so it gets more attention.

Harold: No. It's protected by copyright law from the moment you write it. And no publisher in their right mind would try to make off with it--their reputation is too valuable. I know that this isn't true of some areas. Screenwriters ARE advised to copyright their finished screenplays. However, there are a few differences between Hollywood and New York.

Harold: No. I know that it's the conventional wisdom that publishers want shorter picture books "these days" but I don't think that it's that simple. I think that in the years since full-color printing became the norm we've developed a sub-genre--the art picture book. And these do tend to have fewer words. And picture books for the VERY young have few words, and there are more of those too. But the classic picture book has always been relatively short. Think of Where the Wild Things Are. How many words does that have? Now, it's true that picture STORY books like Curious George aren't as common as they used to be, but that's as much to do with the rise of the easy reader format as anything else.

Harold: No. Distinctive names are a good thing. People have problems with my name, but they remember it.

Jan: Okay, that brings us to the end of our time. Folks are already calling out thanks for the other room...so you've been deeply appreciated. I thank you and you covered so much ground.

Harold: Thanks, Jan, you are a GREAT moderator. And thanks everyone for the excellent questions.

Jan: Yes, it's no fun without the audience. And I always like to have fun -- so thanks to everyone who came tonight and good night.

Harold: Good night, all!