"Perspective: Looking at the Two Sides of the Publishing World" with Beth Troop

Mel: is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Beth Troop, and editor of the ICL Web site.

Beth: is Beth Troop, now a full-time middle-school teacher who left children's publishing to concentrate on doing the most she could do for kids today. Until a few years ago, Beth was an editor at Highlights For Children, a highly successful children's magazine, and then became Manuscript Coordinator for its publishing arm, Boyds Mills Press. After she decided to teach, Beth returned to school to earn her teacher's certificate. So she is well qualified to talk about children's writing from the full perspective of being a children's writer, having been a children's editor, and now being a teacher of young people—besides being the mother of three teenagers.

Green shows the usernames of the people who asked questions of Beth Troop.

Mel: GOOD EVENING to you all! Beth Troop is a long-time friend of mine, and I am delighted along with you to have her back in our chat room again. Beth has, I believe, always "gone full time" at everything she has done. She is a full-time wife, and mother of three teens. Right out of college, Beth went to work for Highlights For Children Magazine, as a "gopher," as she puts it. But what you'll hear tonight will convince you, I'm sure, that she was a very valuable addition to that magazine. During her years at Highlights, Beth moved up to become Manuscript Coordinator for Boyds Mills Press, the publishing arm of Highlights. Beth, THANK YOU for coming out tonight, in between two full days of teaching, to be here with us!

Beth: It's a pleasure to be here!

Mel: Beth, you've been a teacher, a writer and an editor--which one came first in your life?

Beth: I'd say "writer." I have been writing since I was a child and teenager, starting with journals I kept (and still have for reference) at the age of 10. I started submitting stories to magazines as a teenager, though I didn't sell anything then!

Mel: Tell us about how you came to work at Highlights For Children.

Beth: It was one of those "right place--right time" things. I had been out of college for about one month and was still looking for a job. I looked through a paper from Binghamton, NY, which had an ad for a part-time position with qualifications I had. I called the number and it happened to be Highlights. I interviewed and began about a week later--as a "gopher," as you mentioned. I was supposed to be there for six months...15 years later, I was still there.

Mel: What exactly did you do as a "gopher" at Highlights?

Beth: I carried the parts of spelling books that Highlights was in the midst of publishing. Back then computers weren't as advanced as they are now, so all the parts, from manuscript to typesetting, to layout, and finally to finished product to be printed, had to be hand-carried. The good thing is I learned a lot about the process of publishing that way.

Mel: What "instincts" did you feel you had for moving to being an assistant editor, then manuscript coordinator? What made you want to make those career moves?

Beth: I was fortunate to learn about various aspects of publishing from my first job there and felt that I could handle more responsiblity. I moved up to editorial assistant and was responsible for overseeing children's mail and selecting children's poems and drawings for Our Own Pages. I also read many manuscripts and sat in on editorial meetings to plan each issue. As time went on and I continued to learn more, I moved up to assistant editor and took on more editorial tasks. Eventually I became manuscript coordinator and felt comfortable corresponding with authors. I also started editing books for Boyds Mills Press. All the time, it was still a learning process, but I gained confidence as I went.

Nancy: How long did it take you to go from "gopher" to Manuscript Coordinator at Highlights?

Beth: About 4 years.

Nancy: How long were you Manuscript Coordinator at Highlights before you decided to be a classroom teacher?

Beth: It was about 9 years after I'd started as manuscript coordinator. I enjoyed what I did, but I felt that I could do more with children, in a more direct way than through publishing. So, I returned to school, which took two years, then landed a teaching job within a week after getting my certificate. Another "right-place" type thing.

Mel: You're already touched on these next two questions from Nancy, Beth, but perhaps you'd like to add to your answers for them....

Nancy: What was (were) your main motivation(s) for becoming a classroom teacher?

Beth: I began thinking seriously about becoming a teacher around the time when the school shootings started making headline news just about every week. It really bothered me, as I'm sure it did everyone. I wondered if I could do anything to help. It's easy to say "someone should do something," but I like to be an active participant in doing something when I can. After a lot of thought and prayer, I felt drawn toward teaching. While I miss publishing, I don't regret this change. It's great to interact with the students every day!

Nancy: Did you have to go back to school, first, to become a classroom teacher, or had you already earned those credentials in college?

Beth: I had a bachelor's degree in English, so I did not have to get many English credits. However, I had to go back to get my certification and do my student teaching.

Beth: I teach English, which is my favorite, but I also enjoy teaching reading and literature. Someday I might even consider getting certified to teach German (my dual major in college), or history.

Vijaya: Do you still find time to write now that you're teaching? It seems like the perfect profession for a children's writer, but teachers can get very busy.

Beth: The good part is that teachers have a constant supply of ideas and situations that they might not see as readily otherwise. But, yes, teachers do get busy, so it isn't always easy to sit down and write when I want to. In fact, I have a manuscript revision that has been sitting on my desk for about a month. I finally had a chance to work on it during the Thanksgiving break. I just have to squeeze time between grading essays and tests and planning. But, summer does give a little more time. I was talking with one of the editors from Highlights this summer, and she said she can always tell when the teachers are out of school, because then they start submitting stories again!

Mel: So, Nancy wants to know, now do you have more time for your own personal writing, or less?

Beth: It's hard to say. I believe we all can make time if we choose to. It's easy to say that life keeps us too busy or that other tasks take priority. I think that I can make more time than I used to, but it may be because I force myself to make time. I don't know if I really have more time or if I'm just more inclined to make more time than I would have a few years ago.

Janel: Beth should be put up for beatification for teaching middle school!

Beth: I was just talking with some people earlier, some of whom have taught and some of whom are married to teachers. We came to the conclusion that we are all made for certain ages. I give kudos to anyone who can handle a classroom of kindergartners all day! I did it once as a substitute and was wiped out!

cup: Now that you are in the classroom, what topics/subjects are kids asking for...that we need to write about?

Beth: Kids really enjoy adventure. They like action. I see a lot of kids reading science fiction and fantasy, a lot of Tolkien. I haven't seen Harry Potter as much this year as in the previous years, though. I know teachers are hungry for good nonfiction that they can use in the classroom with students, especially biographies. I also think children enjoy reading "mirrors" of their own lives to some degree--seeing others going through what they're experiencing in life. That's been the case for a long time and continues to be. The issues kids deal with, though, seem to be getting tougher. We can't just write about nostalgic stories that make us smile. Kids need to read about others in their situations and see characters overcoming obstacles that may seem insurmountable at first.

Mel: You're doing well, Beth, you even anticipated a question from mbvoelker about what your students are reading!

avyn: How much do movies influence children's reading choices?

Beth: I think that children who are inclined to read will read regardless of the movies. One of my concerns with movies (or tv) is that so many seem disjointed, with unclear plots or sequence, and I think that affects children in their levels of reading, not so much in their reading choices. We find in the classroom that students have a hard time describing the sequence of action in a book, perhaps because they are so used to seeing movies or videos or video games that jump from one point or segment to another. I believe that's a problem and has a detrimental impact on student reading. So, movies may not influence children to read a particular book or genre as a whole, but they may have a negative impact that I hope we can overcome.

mbvoelker: Do you have general students, college track, gifted, remedial, or a mix? How do the reading habits differ among the groups?

Beth: I have a mix. It's amazing to see the differences. I have a good-sized library in my room, which includes Dickens novels and Shakespeare for the higher-level readers, and I have some Highlights magazines for those who may not read as well. We have a 30-minute silent reading period after lunch each day. I would say that about 3/4 of the students read voraciously and on level. About 1/4 of them are below reading level, anywhere from grade one to about 3rd-4th grade level. In the 8th grade, about 1/4 of the students are also below grade level in their reading skills.

janel: Beth: If you've seen the movie "Cat In The Hat," could you please comment on it?

Beth: I haven't seen it yet. I thought I wanted to, but I'm not sure. While the previews look good, I just worry about it cheapening the Cat in the Hat experience in some way.

Mel: I haven't seen it myself, Beth, but a review of it I read wasn't very complimentary. It said there was too much added that Seuss hadn't written into that simple story.

Nancy: What genre of writing to you prefer to do now, and for what age group?
Beth: I prefer to write contemporary fiction for about age 10 and up. I mostly have written short stories, but I have a lot of novel ideas rumbling through my head. I would like to try some historical fiction short stories and some nonfiction, but I need that precious time for research. I also enjoy writing devotionals, though they aren't for children.

paige: As you are so familiar with Highlights' style, do you submit most of your articles and stories to them, or do you write for other magazines, too?

Beth: I still have a sense of loyalty to Highlights, so I always submit to them first, if what I have written is appropriate for them. If they can't use the material, then I look elsewhere.

del: Thanks for being here, Beth. I've got the opposite situation. I'm currently a teacher (and children's writer) and am curious about the world of publishing as a possible career move. Can you offer any advice? Thanks.

Beth: Think about how hectic a day at school can get, then multiply that a few times and increase the level of stress a few notches. That's what a typical day in publishing is like. However, your experience as a teacher can be very helpful, because you would have insight that editors don't have on a daily basis without the "kid contact." Publishing can be a rewarding career, but it is stressful and not always as glamorous as it may appear. If you live near any publishing houses, look into any summer openings when you're out of school to see if you like the setting and schedule. Publishing houses vary--some have specifically-focused editing jobs, and others, like Highlights and Boyds Mills Press make you wear many hats and juggle several tasks at once. That's challenging and gets the adrenalin going, but it can wear you down at times, too. And, there are few breaks. I really enjoyed the publishing world, and in looking back I can appreciate all that I did as an editor, but I'm not sure I could handle that constant level of stress and deadlines anymore. One of the nice things about teaching is that when you are worn down at the end of the school year, you can recharge and start fresh again in the fall. With publishing, there is very little "down" time. I don't want to discourage you from looking into publishing, but try to get a small taste of it first to see how you like it.

Mel: I fully agree with you, Beth. Publishing has no such thing as a "summer break"!

staceynav: Do kids like to read about mainstream problems, or those that are more serious?

Beth: I believe they like both. It depends a lot on where they are in life, both in circumstances and age. I know teens (one of mine included) who seem to thrive on reading tragic stories and getting sad over them. Others prefer to read about kids who are like them and are going through the same things. It's like having a friend that you can take with you everywhere. Think about some of the Newbery Medal winners of the past--A Single Shard, Bud Not Buddy, Holes, Walk Two Moons, for example. What makes them interesting to children is, not their seriousness or shock value, but the common chord they touch with each reader, because they hit on the basic needs of acceptance, love, family, identity, friendship.
Mel: Tell me, Beth, you have three teenagers of your own. Do you ever worry about them reading such tragic stories as are popular today?

Beth: Yes, especially my 16-year-old. She takes too much to heart. I have had to hide some of the books she has read, because she wants to read them over and over. Sometimes I think teens have a hard time distancing themselves from what they read if they take it too seriously. My youngest child is very much into stories about the Holocaust. She seems to handle them okay. She gets upset by what is told, but her perspective is more of one to learn from what she reads rather than dwell on it, so she doesn't make the same mistakes.

Mel: Beth, we'll move toward the "editorial side of you" now, with this next question.

janel: Beth: Does Highlights For Children accept HISTORICAL fiction in their contest?

Beth: It depends on the topic, which changes each year. Their fiction contest begins January 1st and ends February 28th (29th in 2004, probably). To be honest, I have not yet checked to see what the 2004 topic is, but you can find out by calling them or writing for guidelines.

Mel: Do you mean that Highlights takes phone calls from us to a number we could get from information in Honesdale, PA?

Beth: Yes, if you were to call and just ask what the topic is, they would be fine with that. The phone number is 570-253-1080. The address to which to write is 803 Church Street, Honesdale, PA 18431

Mel: That's a NICE touch--and THANK YOU, Beth!

nerak1116: You mentioned biographies earlier. Several years ago, I wrote a short biography for the ICL course. It has been rejected repeatedly for lack of focus. But there's not enough information to focus it--it has to be general. Any feedback? Thanks.

Beth: I'm not clear on why it had to be general instead of focused. Was it that you couldn't get enough information or that you wanted to stick to a certain style?

Mel: I'll look for nerak1116's clarification and pass it on, Beth. Meanwhile, how many years did you say you worked in publishing?

Beth: Fifteen

Mel: What were some of your responsibilities, again?

Beth: At the point when I became manuscript coordinator and assistant editor I was tracking all of the incoming manuscripts for Highlights For Children and Boyds Mills Press, corresponding with authors, reading manuscripts circulated to editors (that made it through the intial cuts), screening manuscripts, reading and responding to query letters, editing books, and managing the Boyds Mills Press book club, which included a montly "brochure" that accompanied each month's selected book. I also spoke at writers' conferences, which allowed me to meet many wonderful writers!

Mel: What was most rewarding about being an editor?

Beth: Working with authors and seeing them grow, especially those who got their start with Highlights or Boyds Mills Press and have moved on to become award-winning writers of multiple stories.

Mel: What was most challenging in your job as editor?

Beth: Keeping things straight and meeting deadlines.

Vijaya: What used to catch your eye when you worked as an editor? What did you hate?

Beth: First, what caught my eye, mostly a strong, engaging opening. Most manuscripts are won or lost in the first couple of paragraphs, so openings are critical! If a story started with a striking comment from a narrator or immediate action or interaction between characters, it may have captured my attention enough for me to send it to other readers. The attention spans of today's readers are fairly short, so editors look for action or strong dialogue that immediately sets the tone and indicates something good will follow. What I disliked most was tired themes such as the toothfairy or a grandmother-type character intent on teaching a strong moral to children. Didactic plots were a sure way to turn me off. I was never a big fan of anthropomorphism, either. I think that is hard to do well, but many people think it's easy. I saw a lot of interesting ideas, such as the life of a traffic light (from the light's point of view) or children's vitamins intent on escaping from the vitamin jar. Those things went too far. Authors shouldn't stretch so far that it hurts to understand an idea.

Mel: What do you miss about not working for a publisher?

Beth: Aside from missing the authors I worked with, I also miss the daily insight that comes with being on the "inside" of the field. However, the experience does help me as an author, because I have an idea of what's happening when my manuscript reaches the publishing house, and I know about how long I should wait before contacting them if too much time goes by (about 3 months).

Mel: How do you recommend, from having been in publishing, that a new author proceed in becoming established, that is in regard to their dealings with a publisher?

Beth: Present yourself professionally. The first step in doing this is to do your homework. Make sure the publisher you submit to is right for your manuscript, otherwise you will be wasting your time and the publisher's time. You can research publishers in writers directories that can be purchased bookstores, or you can research them on-line. Learn about the publishing company's publishing philosophy and style, and get a copy of the guidelines. When you submit (or query), introduce yourself briefly, describe what you have written, and, if it's nonfiction, include your qualifications for writing your manuscript. If you have any publishing experience, no matter how big or small, mention that. Be sure to include a SASE if you want it returned. Do NOT beg or plead to be published or ask the publisher to overlook any errors in the manuscript (I really have seen letters like this!). You should present yourself to a publisher the way you would expect to present yourself in a job interview. The more professional you are, the better your chances.

Mel: What can you tell us about the publishing world that authors may not realize or understand?

Beth: Publishing houses receive thousands of manuscripts and queries every year. They are constantly reading new manuscripts while also being under constant pressure to meet deadlines for magazines and books to be published. Their time is short, so you need to allow them time to review what you've sent without contacting them too often. Before I was in publishing I had no concept of how busy editors really are. I think I would be a lot less patient if I had never seen the "other side." Another thing is that if an editor writes you a letter expressing interest in a story you proposed or asking you to revise a manuscript, he or she is serious and probably has a vision for your story. Take it seriously, get to the revision, and get it back to the editor as soon as possible. If too much time goes by, the editor might have received a similar query or manuscript from someone else, which could cause you to lose out. Because editors' time is precious, they would not write letters if they didn't see some potential in what the author has written.

Mel: Thank you, Beth, very VALUABLE insights! donnac just sent us a good word about the 2004 Highlights contest:

donnac: The 2004 Highlights fiction contest is "I Have A Problem".

Beth: May I make a suggestion?

Mel: By all means!

Beth: If you choose to write on this theme, try to think of a problem that is a little out of the ordinary (but not too far out). Don't write about a child who is worried about losing a tooth or has a fear of an imaginary monster, but think of something that kids can relate to without it having been overused. You can write about something that relates to us all, such as friendship, but try to find a thread that is a little unique, such as a character befriending someone who is perhaps mentally challenged. This character might find herself being ostracized by her friends, which creates her problem, but she, in the end finds a truer friendship than she might otherwise have had. Just keep the angle as fresh as you can, because they get many, many submissions to this contest.

Mel: SUPER advice, Beth, from an insider! Here is another follow-up, from nerak1116, about why the article mentioned was UNfocused...

nerak1116: I couldn't get enough information.

Beth: I looked back to find your original question so I could connect it here. You said your biography had gotten rejected because it was unfocused, and you had to have it be general. Some topics aren't ready to be written about. If you could not find enough information, you may need to put this biography aside for a while and focus on other subjects, even another person about whom to write a biography. While doing your research for other projects, keep this biography in the back of your mind. You may come across information when you least expect it, or as time goes by, more information may be written on that person that provides the details your bio was lacking. Our manuscripts are like our children, and it's hard to see others' viewpoints on them sometimes. But, if you set it aside and give yourself time to do more research and think about what else you could include, the biography may be stronger in the long run. Don't give up on this biography, but don't let it stop you from pursuing other projects. We do need more biographies on people children can view as positive role models.

soradina: What kinds of stories do kids like to read today in your opinion? Also do you have any suggestions for us on how we can find out what today's kids are reading and what appeals to them the most? Thank you.

Beth: Kids like adventure and action stories, and I find that fantasy and science fiction seem to be popular. Of course, kids also enjoy reading about characters that may mirror their own lives and show them in situations the reader may be in. They like to see characters overcome the odds, perhaps giving them inspiration for their own situations. The best way to know what kids like to read or what interests them is to be around them. Visit libraries; observe children in stores or malls. If you go to any school events, listen to what they're saying (as much as is possible). If you have children or grandchildren or friends with children spend time with them and see what interests them most. They are great sources of ideas!

mbvoelker: What sort of BOOKS do your students want more of? Any particular TITLES that they wish there were more like that?

Beth: Our students love Gary Paulson books (Hatchet, Woodsong). The boys in particular like the "Captain Underpants" series (go figure!). Humor and fantasy seem to be big with them. I don't hear students talking a LOT in general about specific titles. I would say that fantasy, action/adventure, and humor are near the top for boys, while contemporary/realistic fiction is more what girls go for.

Beth: Well, encourage children to read what they enjoy, but monitor what they read--that's what I would answer as a teacher trying to help children develop reading skills, which can help them have a positive self image. As a writer, read what the "masters" have written and learn from them in how they develop their characters' self images. Allow a character to experience difficulties, as we all do, but give him/her options that lead to positive choices, indirectly showing readers that they, too, can make choices, and how they make their choices can affect their view of themselves and the world around them.

sassi: Could you please comment on the market for teaching materials?

Beth: There are many educational publishers, and it seems that educational materials, especially supplementary items that may not necessarily be part of a textbook series, are more readily available. Unfortunately, I have had very little experience with educational publishing. You can search for educational publishers on-line, and you also can find some listed in the children's writers directories. They may be more inclined to assign work rather than take freelance submissions. But, if you write and have educational experience, you should query some of the houses and see if you could be hired for some specific writing assignments. I'm sorry I don't have much information on them.

Mel: Is it a good idea to have an agent?

Beth: Not when you're starting out. If you are submitting just a few manuscripts at a time then an agent isn't necessary. If you reach a point where you have more submissions and sales than you can keep up with, especially when it comes to deciphering some of the contracts, then it may be a good idea. If you reach that point, choose carefully. Most reputable agents will work on a commission basis and not charge you an exorbitant fee as a retainer. If you find an agent who is interested in taking you on but requires an up-front fee, be leery. It's like sending to a publisher who requires you to pay him to publish your book. Once that money is exchanged, the agent has little incentive to push your manuscript because he/she already has his/her money. An agent who works on commission has more of a reason to get out there and sell your idea to publishers.

rite 1: What if an agent said they liked your voice, etc., except it was not the right story for them. That means they're not interested, right?

Beth: Like publishers, some agents specialize in certain genres or types of stories. It might mean that the agent wasn't interested, but it more likely means exactly what the agent said. Many agents today were once editors and still have the editor's blood in their veins. Don't take it as a flat rejection. Take a look at the voice. If there is a way to fix it, do so, or send it to another agent and see what he/she says. Usually, if an agent or editor just isn't interested, the response will be "It doesn't fit our needs at this time." Anything else could be some free advice or suggestions.

Mel: Beth, how I wish we could go on asking questions and chatting. The two hours tonight has seemed like two minutes talking with you. The chatsters' questions have reflected their respect for you and eagerness to hear all you have to say. I know for a fact that you haven't told a fraction of what you know about children and writing for them. So I hope you will come back some day and share more with us. Would you please consider doing that in the future?

Beth: I would be happy to do so. This is a lot of fun, and you folks are great to talk with!

Mel: We will be back with a Guest Chat two weeks from this evening, on December 18. Some of you know that through an "act of calendar," the ICL and the Long Ridge Guest Chats now fall on the same Thursday evening. I want you to know that it was mostly my fault, and Mary Rosenblum and I are figuring out a way to get the chats back on alternate Thursdays. It may not be right away, because of guests we both have scheduled ahead and can't reschedule. But by sometime in March, at latest, I think we'll be able to get back on alternate Thursdays, and stay there.

And thank YOU again, Beth Troop, for this memorable chat with you tonight. You have given us food for the fight and courage for the journey of getting published for children. We'll be looking very much forward to having you back in our chat room someday. In the meantime, I can say it no better than Nancy Guye-Vuillème wrote of you before this evening: "Perhaps not all of your students know it now, but somewhere down the road, they will realize how fortunate they were to have you as a teacher to pass on her skills and expertise to them. Teachers like you make the world a better place." THANK YOU, Beth! And good night and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to you all!

janel: Thanks, Beth, Mel, and everyone!