Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Terry Whalin, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Terry.

Jan: Welcome to SPECIAL GUEST CHAT: "Book Proposals" with Terry Whalin! Pull up a chair and learn about what goes into a book proposal to make that nonfiction book sale! Welcome, Terry -- I'm so glad you're here. Since we're running a little late, I'm going to jump right in with questions.

Terry: Let's get this party started.

Jan: What exactly is a book proposal and why is it important?

Terry: A proposal is the document that publishing executives use to consider your book idea. It contains information which will never appear in your book manuscript, yet is critical for the executives to decide if they should invest in your book or not. What many people don't understand--and I never understood until I became an editor -- is that a publisher is going to spend at least $25,000 and maybe as high as $50,000 on your book idea to bring it into print--zero marketing dollars and a modest advance to you as the author are in that number. Publishers use a lot of care to make these decisions because if they make wrong ones then they don't stay in business. It's up to the author in the proposal to entice and convince the publisher to publish your idea.

Jan: So, with that kind of money involved, I have a question everyone wants to know. Are editors and agents really actively looking for new authors or simply publishing people already have the inside track?

Terry: Yes, we are actively looking for new clients and new authors. The unfortunate thing is that most authors don't make a good first impression and pour the right kind of energy into their proposal or pitch, then they get rejected and figure no one wants them. I've been inside some of the major literary agencies in New York City and every agent that I know is actively looking for new clients--but it's the right client. It's the same on the publishing side, every publisher is actively looking for new authors-- but they are looking for the right author with the right idea at the right time.

Jan: Ah, we have a couple chatters who want to know more about being the right client...

Terry: The right client is someone who the agent can immediately sell. You want to be only working with literary agents who sell on commission. They don't get paid unless they sell your project. They are looking for clients who they can sell--and then they can make money. Those clients are the right client and every agent is looking for those people. Even the major agencies in New York City.

Terry: There are a number of things. First, the pitch has to be easily summarized in a five second pitch. Can you hook me as an editor with a stand out title or a simple concept that is perfect for my publishing house? It will take time and effort for you to create such a concept, but as I've often heard you only have one chance to make a first impression. One.

Terry: Also will you include a marketing plan that is realistic? For many authors it is a new concept that they have to market at all--much less have a realistic plan. I see many proposals where they have a marketing plan but it is pure fantasy. They propose things like TV commercials and full color magazine ads with zero understanding of the cost and real return for such marketing. It's unrealistic. Every author has a network. The question is how big is your network and will you bring this network the information about your book? You need to show this right off the bat to the editor. You will have seconds to catch his or her attention--and I mean seconds.

Terry: Also you can include things like special market ideas. Many authors have never heard of special market sales but publishers love these deals because the books are never returned--a big problem within the publishing community. You can learn about special sales by going to http://www.bookmarket.com and studying the various examples. Jerry Jenkins at the Jenkins Group (you will see it on that site) sells millions of books in special markets. The majority of those special market ideas are turned up by the author--you don't have to do the sale--but you do have to kick open the door for your publisher--and I mean kick.

Terry: Those are just a few of the ideas for you to distinguish your proposal from others. I have a bunch more at this location: http://snipurl.com/marketingplan Follow the various links because there is a wealth of ideas in my blog on the Writing Life http://www.thewritinglife.ws is where my blog is located with over 500 entries--and searchable. Also I have information about book proposals at my book site: http://www.bookproposals.ws. I can go on but let's see if I've given you what you wanted.

Jan: Can you give one example of a "special sale" or "special market" just to whet our appetite to go read about it?

Terry: Yes, I can tell you about a special sale that happened when I was an acquisitions editor at Cook Communications. I acquired a little devotional from Henry Gariepy who was with the Salvation Army and former editor of their magazine, The War Cry. I told the publishing executives that we would be doing a special sale with the Salvation Army and I had a room full of skeptics. Finally the special sales guy in the house got around to calling Henry Gariepy and investigating the deal. I had contracted the book and he came to me in mid-November asking when the book was scheduled to release. I think he already had looked on the schedule and knew the book wasn't scheduled on the list. Publishers have a detailed schedule of various junctures for your book that is used inside the publishing house and the author never sees it. I looked on my list and learned the book wasn't scheduled. So I asked a dangerous question: When do you need this book?

Terry: He said,"February 20th would be perfect."

Terry: Within book publishing that is smoking for a pace because it was only three months away from when we were talking. Instead of blowing him off, I asked, "What's at stake here?"

Terry: He said, "The Salvation Army is going to order 17,000 copies of the book."

Terry: I said, "I'm in--I don't care about anybody else but I'm in."

Terry: My colleagues in editorial were busy so I edited this book over Christmas, crammed it into my schedule. I worked with the scheduler for the printer to know when I had to get everything done so the book could be printed by February 20th. Now we broke the sales and marketing cycles so the book was printed before it was even sold into the bookstores. It didn't really release until the next summer but we seeded the marketplace with those 17,000 copies for the Salvation Army.

Terry: At writers conferences I hold up the books--the Salvation Army version has a different back cover with a red shield on it. The trade book version is different-- no shield. Why is this important? The Salvation Army books are heavily discounted to them--but they are never returned. Returns are a huge problem for book publishers and special sales are significant because they are never returned.

Terry: Can you apply this example to your book idea? Can you generate a special sale which will make your proposal special and make it stand out from anything else on that editor's desk or anything else in the publishing house. See how it fuels excitement for your project over others? That's the difference you want to make with your proposal.

Jan: Well, 17,000 is a lot of sales -- how many special market sales would you need to be interesting to a publisher?

Terry: Anything over 5,000 copies would be worth it. Now those 17,000 copies dropped shipped from the printer to specific locations all across the US. This is important because every publisher struggles with warehouse space. It is a constant topic when publishers get together away from the public. Those 17,000 books were not stored but simply printed with the other copies. The per unit cost for the publisher dropped--because they printed more copies. The more you print, the cheaper it is for the publisher--but then you have a storage problem. With a special sale, you've allowed your publisher to make more money--and you've added to the marketing for your book in a cost effective way. It's an unusual idea, but I believe entirely possible to replicate with other projects--provided writers learn about it and think about it with their pitches.

Terry: I don't know if we can put it into a percentage. The key is the tone and the enthusiam that you include in the proposal. You aren't just going to be the "writer" but you are going to be a true partner with the publisher in getting the word out about your book. That's an effective marketing plan. And please don't tell me that you are willing to go on Oprah or willing to do radio and TV interviews. (Yes, I've seen this in proposals that I receive) EVERY author is willing to do interviews, at least they should be willing. Few authors will ever get on Oprah and you may even do very few radio and TV interviews for your book. Especially when you realize there were 190,000 books published last year. Competition is incredible. Even within the publisher who believed in your book to publish it--there is competition for marketing dollars and marketing attention. How can you come along side that harried publicist for your publisher and help that person--not nag at them like many authors? It's a question worthy of your consideration and thought. Take that thought and build it into your proposal.

Jan: So, as children's authors -- if we're doing school visits and stuff like that...does that help?

Terry: Absolutely. School visits are great and it generates interest in the book. My question would be what are you doing or leaving behind about your book for the people who don't buy it on the spot? Are you leaving bookmarks or postcards or something that the child will take home to their parent? Even that bookmark -- does it include the information necessary to purchase the book? You'd be shocked at the incomplete examples of bookmarks that I see from authors. They've taken their hard earned money and not thought about it enough to create something which will be effective for them. In publishing we have a saying, "The hardest thing to proofread is something that is not there." It's true. If the price or the ISBN or a website isn't on your leave behind, then you have not helped yourself. School visits are terrific and something that can stir continual interest in your book. There are many other things you can do as well.

Terry: On the adult nonfiction side, a typical book proposal is about 15-30 pages double-spaced. I have a lot of information and a couple of examples of real book proposals in Book Proposals That Sell, 21 Secrets To Speed Your Success. The best place to get this book--and multiple ways is http://www.right-writing.com/ways.html. In the book I have a personal example of a book proposal which sold for a six-figure advance. Most authors think that's a pipe dream. It's not if you have the right idea and the right agent. I'm talking about an adult project with that six figure advance. They are a surprising amount of work--for all of us

Jan: I know you've written children's nonfiction too -- how long would that sort of proposal be -- say for something shorter or even nonfiction picture book? I know the examples in your book are for adult nonfiction...how does children's nonfiction differ?

Terry: Children's nonfiction would be shorter. Depends on the age range you are targeting. For the younger board books, you would probably include the entire manuscript with your proposal. You still need the marketing plan, endorsement ideas, information about you and why you are worthy of the publisher's investment. Those numbers that I quoted earlier about the cost are something the author never sees. I had written about 50 books before I began working at a publisher and saw this information--called a P & L for a profit and loss statement. Children's books have even higher production numbers because the artwork is purchased outright--so they can easily climb in the $100,000 range for full-color artwork. It's why you may have few words on the page but you have to work really hard at those few words and the plans for those words so you (and the publisher) can earn back that money spent on production.

Terry: I don't know your material but it seems like it will be somewhat of a challenge for you to interest publishers--because they are segmented. Jewish publishers, pagan publishers and Christian publishers. They are somewhat different markets. There are many reasons why ideas are rejected. One of the reasons that people don't want to consider is that the publisher doesn't see a market for that idea. I suspect it will be a difficult sell.

Terry: I don't know that you need the clips per say. It would be good to note that you have the clips. It's more important to quote from these various high profile sources as you pitch your idea. What you have to think about is that publishing executives are busy. They are not sitting around all day reading your materal. They are working on many other books (already contracted). They only look at proposals before the publication boad meeting. Well, some of them read the material during the meeting. I've had it happen when I'm pitching a book. For the sales people, your proposal may be the only document they will ever see about your book. It's that important. I know--scary but sales guys just want something short and sweet to walk into their accounts and pitch. You are providing those sentences in your proposal.

Terry: As an editor, I dislike it when an author sends me multiple versions of the same proposal. It's quite unprofessional and makes a poor impression. I guess what I'm saying is you need to work your proposal to the very best of your ability. For some perfectionists that means they could be working their proposal FOREVER but you can't. You have to get it to a good level of excellence and let it go. I hope I've answered the question--at least from how I understood it.

Terry: I guess the question is whether you will be selling books to other markets. I hope so because over half of the books sold are sold outside of the bookstore. Every book proposal should include a competition section. It's bogus to think that your idea is unique. It's not. Every book competes in the marketeplace--what products will be next to your product? I guess the question in response is whether you want to sell books or delegate that effort to your publisher. I've delegated many times--and been sorely disappointed with the results. I'm keen for every author to be successful. It doesn't have to consume you--the marketing. You just have to make a conscious effort to do it consistently--even for fifteen minutes a day.

Terry: Yes you can do it in 25 pages. I may only read a page or two and decide if I'm going to keep reading. It's the truth that editors do a great deal more than sit around reading proposals and manuscript ideas. As I said earlier, you only have seconds to catch that editor's attention. You want to work on your pages so I'm compelled to read everything. As an acquisitions editor/ developmental editor, I quickly learned that I can only develop a small percentage of proposals and manuscripts. It has to be fairly close to what I need for me to push it the rest of the distance. Otherwise it gets rejected. For example, this year, I've received more than 350 proposals, manuscripts, and pitches from literary agents and individuals. I've logged them--that's how I know the number. And we are going to publish six to eight novels from those submissions. For the editor, it's like drinking from a firehose. You have to make snap decisions and we make them all the time. We make mistakes and don't always choose properly, but when we see something we like, we know it--I know cliche but true.

Terry: Each part is separate. You don't send lots of clips--at least I don't. I refer to my published materials--magazine articles or books -- but there is no need to send the actual clips or books. It is a hefty package--the proposal along with the sample chapter can easily be 60 pages total, but it's what you will need to put together to prove to the publisher that you are worth their investment. You need to find someone within the publishing house who will champion your work. It's the role that I've filled for many years for my authors as an acquisitions editor. If I'm missing some important piece and I love your idea, I guarantee that I will come back to you for it.

Jan: There's a novelist for adults who recommends writers spend their entire advance on promotion -- and that's how a writer shows his commitment to being a "partner" in the process. But really, we're interested in knowing what kind of promotion a publisher really wants from us, so with that in mind...

Terry: If you can put the bulk of your advance toward marketing, that's great but few of us can do it. You have to figure out what you can spend and do the rest at low cost or free. It's unrealistic to think you can take your entire advance and use it for promotion--at least it's unrealistic for me. In general, publishers like low cost marketing efforts. For example, can you get your publisher to print postcards or bookmarks, then you offer to distribute them (in schools, bookstores, mailings at your expense). That's a cooperative effort. You are doing something and the publisher is doing something. See the cooperation? You are doing something and the publisher is doing something. Or use the tools on the Internet--and there are many of them. I love Amazon connect for example. If you don't know what I'm talking about and you have books, then learn about it at: http://www.amazon.com/connect. If you want to see my Amazon profile, it is located at http://snipurl.com/wtwamazon. You will notice that I have over 20 of my books listed along with a special Amazon blog (FREE). Why is this important? I can write one blog entry and it will appear on all of my various books. I wrote Running On Ice by Vonetta Flowers (the first African American to win a Gold Medal in the Winter Olympics). If you look at this page: http://snipurl.com/roivf then it will take you to the Amazon page for this book. I have the connection with the reader--not Vonetta. She could have, but will likely never do it. It's something you can do as well in your marketing--and it will sell books.

Terry: Yes, in the nonfiction area don't write the manuscript, instead invest your time in crafting an excellent book proposal. I'd say in about 80% of the time publishers are going to contract a book from a book proposal not a manuscript. It is a waste of your time, talent and energy to write a manuscript which sits in your desk drawer. According to a recent book called Get Published! by two leaders at iUniverse, there are millions of these manuscripts sitting in people's desk drawers. Millions of fiction and millions of nonfiction. The key is to get it out of the drawer and in a proposal and in the right hands. I recommend you get a copy of Get Published! You can buy it in the bookstore (It's a POD -- Print On Demand). Or I'm going to tell you how to get it FREE. http://snipurl.com/valuable. Just follow this link. You do have to fill out the iUniverse form and may get an email or phone call--but you can profit from particularly the first 50% of this book. (The last 50% is an ad for iUniverse.) There are some great tools for you to use and the absolute best tool I can give you is Book Proposals That Sell. Other writers are using this book to get publishing contracts. I've seen the results and it's the only book in this area written from the editor's perspective.

Jan: So really, nonfiction and fiction are really sold completely differently -- right? At least above the picture book level.

Terry: Yes, fiction and nonfiction are sold completely differently. I agree but I've found fiction and nonfiction authors alike profit from the understanding in my book--because they begin to think like an editor--and understand how to put together what that editor needs to champion your idea. It's going to be a key step for your publishing success.

Terry: It all depends on the idea and how it is pitched and who you pitch it to. I contracted a book with an eight year old when I was at Cook Communications. It is called Emily's Bracelet. Her father helped her get it together and is a co-author on the book but it's written by the young person. It can happen but it is rare. Encourage your son to never give up. It's how dreams are built. I've got a full site to encourage people with their writing dreams. I've invested a lot of energy putting it together. http://www.right-writing.com. Make sure you subscribe to the newsletter (free) because it will give you access to over 400 additional pages of how-to information--not just from me but from others as well.

Terry: No. Emily's bracelet is a story about a little girl sharing her Christian faith with a friend through the use of a bracelet. The book actually includes two bracelets with the beads. It was a nightmare to figure out where we were going to produce it and all of those decisions needed to be made before we contracted the book. It turned out to be a great project.

Jan: Cool. Sounds like a hot item with kids though. I know my daughter is wild for bracelets.

Terry: It is very popular and this little author continues to do book signings for this product.

Jan: So, after a project is accepted -- how long before it becomes a real book?

Terry: Now there's a loaded question for you. It depends on many factors: when is it pitched to the publisher in their pub board meeting? How complicated is it to figure out the financials or the production? I had a series of children's books with a musician, which had a CD in the back with music from this musician that took me almost two years to get contracted. Then another year to get it produced.

Terry: Your writing speed will be different from my speed. How long will it take you to write the book with everything else in your life? For some people, they need two years. Other people need six months. I've written some books in six weeks and others in a matter of days. It depends on many factors.

Jan: Does the publisher like the six month people better than the two year people? In other words, how slow can you be before you honk the publisher off?

Terry: We are in the business of selling books. If I've given you an advance, I'm eager to get the book into print and begin earning back that money (I'm speaking as the publisher here). Two years is a bit excessive in my view--stretching it and would need some explanation as to why it will take that long. I'd say publishers prefer people who can write and write with excellence and deliver what they promise when they promise it. I hope you see those little conditions I'm building into the answer.

Terry: In a short picture book, I'd pour a lot of energy into the marketing plan and the competition and about you the author. Why? Because these factors (along with excellent writing) are going to make your project stand out compared to the others on my desk.

Terry: It's good to propose a series. Series ideas often take off, which means if I buy book five in a series and haven't bought the first four books and I love your writing then I will return and guy the earlier books. The key will always be excellent writing combined with an excellent pitch.

Jan: This next question is a bit off-topic but I know you would have good advice, so I'm squeezing it in.

Terry: The best way to get started in devotionals is in the magazine area. You will reach more than six million people writing a single devotional for the Upper Room magazine. Also for devotional books, you need to work with packagers--not publishers. The best advice I can give you is to go to my blog on the Writing Life http://www.thewritinglife.ws and use the google search tool in the right-hand column andsearch for packager--then read those entries. I have one about Knocking on the Wrong Door. It happens a lot with these types of books.

Jan: Okay, last question for the night.

Terry: No, I don't see it as overwriting but simply excellent pitching. Can you show me in a few sentences that you know how to reach this market? It is possible and I've seen it done successfully--and I've written those cover letters for my own work--which garner instant attention from editors and literary agents.

Jan: You packed a lot in tonight. I know I'm going to enjoy transcribing this just to learn more. I so appreciate you sharing so much with us. And all those links to resources...anything else you want to sneak in?

Terry: The key is for each of us to keep learning all the time and keep growing in our craft of writing and our marketing knowledge. I know I certainly fall into this camp. I do not know it all--and I'm learning new things all the time. As for the links, I believe I got them into the chat. I've started using feedblitz. Look for it on my blog about the writing life: http://www.thewritinglife.ws. I'm surprised in many ways that people keep reading my blog but they do.

Jan: And everyone should get his newsletter -- very cool and filled with info.

Terry: The last issue of the newsletter was packed with information about this very topic--Book Proposals. It's available to anyone who subscribes. http://www.right-writing.com/newsletter.html Or the link is on every page of Right-Writing.com.

Jan: I know I'm a new fan -- and you could spend the day just reading the archives.

Terry: Yes, someone wrote me today they were reading and listening all day from the newsletter that I sent out late last night.

Jan: Thanks again, Mr. Terry Whalin ( I shall never misspell again)...And everyone in the audience, be sure to check back again NEXT week for another guest chat! We're going to pack your brains.

Terry: Thank you, Jan. Good night.