Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Handling That First Sale and All That Follows" with Teri Martini.

Thursday, June 6, 2002

Moderator: is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of 24 juvenile novels and 150+ articles and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Teri is Teri Martin, author of over a hundred stories and articles for magazines. She has published 31 books for children and adults. When she began publishing, she was an elementary school teacher, who was handling two careers. Among her children's books are THE SECRET IS OUT, a collection of spy stories published by Little, Brown, and THE TRUE BOOK OF INDIANS, published by Children's Press.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

Moderator: Good evening, everyone. I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator, and I'm pleased tonight to introduce my friend, Teri Martini, who will be talking on "Handling That First Sale and All That Follows." The new successful author must try to handle that first acceptance with the grace and savvy of a professional. This includes MANY things, as you'll discover tonight. Teri Martini is a versatile writer who has written over a hundred stories and articles for magazines and has published 31 books for children and adults. Welcome, Teri!

Teri: Thank you, Kristi. Hello, everyone.

Moderator: At what point in your life did YOU make that first important sale, Teri? Was it for magazines?

Teri: Actually, my first sale came about a year after I graduated from college. I sold a book.

Moderator: Did you make the sale going through traditional submission procedures we teach today?

Teri: Almost every one of the procedures. I was a big fan of Writer's Digest Magazine, and I followed their suggestions, but I didn't write a query letter. I simply sent in my biography for children and they liked it.

Moderator: Teri, since about 90% of children's writers who write both books and magazine pieces started with magazines, my first questions will be about magazine sales (even though you wrote books first.) With your first magazine sale, were you asked to revise before your manuscript was accepted for publication?

Teri: No, I sold it as it was. However, because it was a nonfiction piece, the editor was very careful to check my sources, so I had to go over the bibliography with her, and I know she checked all the facts.

Moderator: Did you receive an acceptance letter, a contract, or a phone call? Which is more common today?

Teri: I received a letter from the editor and after replying to that, I received a one-page contract, very simple.

SaraJ: When you went over that bibliography with the editor, did you have to come up with proof or what exactly?

Teri: The editor was tracking my facts and, yes, she wanted to know exactly where I found my material.

Moderator: What kinds of legal agreements are made for magazine stories and articles?

Teri: Usually you receive a short contract, nothing like what you get for a book, but serious. The editors tell you what rights they are buying.

dear: Do you recommend getting a lawyer to review your contract?

Teri: For magazines I think you can handle the contract yourself because it is usually very simple.

SaraJ: I know some writers who didn't get contracts or even a notice about acceptance--the magazine article was just used, and then they got paid. Is this done very much? Is it ethical?

Teri: Once that happened to me. It doesn't happen often, but a very prestigious girls' magazine printed my story, and I wonder when or if they were going to tell my about it. I only knew because one of my students in junior high saw the story and congratulated me on it. That never happened again.

Moderator: How do you know which rights the magazine is buying, especially if there is no contract?

Teri: I think you can assume that they are buying all rights, which is what happened to me with that teen story.

angel1nikki: Did you get paid for the story used by the girls' magazine?

Teri: Definitely. I wrote to them immediately and the check was soon in the mail. There was no contract or agreement.

Moderator: Can you explain the various kinds of rights that magazines buy?

Teri: Okay. All Rights means just what it says. The publisher buys the right to publish your material and you don't have the right to publish it again anywhere without their permission. However, I sold a story called "The Lucky Ghost Shirt" to a magazine. The story was read by a book publisher who wanted the story expanded into a book. I called the editor, and she sent me a letter, returning the book rights at once.

Moderator: Magazines can also buy first rights (the right to publish it first), reprint rights (the right to reprint something previously published), simultaneous rights (the right to print it once, but it may be at the same time as another magazine), or electronic rights (like for some of the web magazines.)

SaraJ: If a magazine wants all rights, do you as the author ever get them to change their minds, or do they just reject your story if you don't agree with them?

Teri: I never had the problem because I was too timid not to agree to all rights, so any time I needed the other rights, I asked for them back and I was always granted them.

Pilarb: I recently had a story accepted for publication with Wee Ones Magazine for January, 2003. When do they usually send the contracts for stories that are not immediately being used?

Teri: Oh, they should send the contract at once. Otherwise you could be sending the material to other publishers and decline their offer. Did that happen to you?

Pilarb: Oh no. I only sent it to the one publication.

Teri: Pilarb, if you send to only one publication at a time, that's a good idea. You can get caught up in some murky waters there with more than one submission.

angel1nikki: Do I understand you right? Magazines paid you to buy the rights, yet they don't mind giving some back later on?

Teri: Angel, they buy the rights, but they do that to protect themselves in the beginning. Once they publish the material they often will give back rights to the author.

kiddielit: Can selling all rights be used as a bargaining tool to ask for more $$$?

Teri: Not really, if you are a new writer and just starting out, but I suppose if you are a well known writer like J.K. Rowling, anything is possible. I would keep it simple at first and show that you are interested in "that" particular magazine. They might ask for more material from you. That has happened to me often.

cusuco: Are multiple submissions frowned upon by magazine publishers, or is it okay to do that?

Teri: Yes, they are frowned upon. When you send multiple submissions, most editors think you are not really interested in their magazine, but, of course, if you are a well known writer, this is a different story. Editors will bid on your work. When you are starting out, I would be cautious. One at a time.

Moderator: You said that many times you sold all rights to a magazine piece. (Is that the same as a work-for-hire agreement?)

Teri: No, work-for-hire is very simple and strict. An editor assigns an article or story to be written by you. Once you sell it to them, it's theirs and you can't publish it anywhere else, as far as I know.

Moderator: Is cashing the check you receive legally binding for the author? If you didn't get a contract, that is.

Teri: I would think that accepting the check suggests that you legally have turned over the rights to that magazine. But I would also think it should be easy to negotiate getting some of the rights back. Yes, you have to cash the check to show that you really have accepted the offer. Don't you agree, Kristi?

Moderator: Yes, I would say so, but if you have doubts about the rights you're selling and don't want to sell all rights, once you cash their check, you have lost all your negotiating power (such as it is). So don't cash it if you have some questions or concerns...ask first.

Valentine: Could you clarify the difference between "all rights" and "work for hire"?

Teri: Okay, "work for hire" means that you were asked to write something special. For instance, I was asked to write a short biography of Leonardo da Vinci for a publication, and I did not have the right to negotiate to sell it elsewhere, but when I wrote an article on Mark Twain, something I conceived as an idea for Scholastic, that was not work-for-hire. It was my idea and I could have negotiated rights for a book, for instance.

angel1nikki: Does your name go on a work-for-hire publication? Or does the person's name, the one asking you to do the story, go on it?

Teri: My name went on the article. But I'm not sure this is always true of other publications. You really don't have any say in the matter when it's work-for-hire. I offered to write for this publisher, and they gave me assignments.

JAMES55CLINTON: If through misunderstanding your work-for-hire isn't satisfactory, how is that handled?

Teri: Oh, the editor simply will reject it and won't print the article. That actually happened to me once when I was asked to do an interview. The editor did not like the content or my style. I never was paid, and the material was never published.

angel1nikki: What about a thank you letter (as a follow-up to selling to a magazine)?

Teri: Well, I've never done that. After all, you have something to sell; the buyer liked it and bought it. You don't have to thank them really.

Pilarb: When your work-for-hire story was rejected, did you have the right to send it to other publications?

Teri: Oh, yes. Unfortunately, the subject of the interview was very narrow and I couldn't find a place to market it. I still have the manuscript.

Moderator: Let's switch to talking about the sale of that first book. I know many writers who publish in magazines hope to eventually sell children's books. Is it a hard transition to make for writers, based on the experiences of writers you've taught or known?

Teri: I think it can be difficult to develop a book after you are used to short pieces. You have to be very disciplined about your writing and the time you devote to it. It takes much more effort to plan a book than a short story and much more time.

cusuco: Did you find it easier to work with magazine publishers or with book publishers?

Teri: I think that I was lucky. I built a nice rapport with my editors and that made it easier for me. I did enjoy the work of books more, though, myself.

Moderator: If a writer doesn't have or doesn't want an agent, what should be done with the contract offered?

Teri: Oh, that's a tough one. At first, I thought that I could handle all contracts myself. I was even careless about it, but then something happened that surprised me. A story I wrote was republished in a reading textbook for fifth grade. I was paid for the sale, but I think if I had looked for advice on contracts, I would have gotten more money.

dear: What about book contracts? Should you have a lawyer review it?

Teri: Oh, yes. I honestly think this is important. When I sold "The Lucky Ghost Shirt" which was a book for children, it was sent to the Disney studios for consideration, something I never expected. Under the contract, I honestly don't know what would have happened had it sold to them. I never even looked at the movie rights. It never occurred to me. I learned something. Use a lawyer or an agent.

dear: How did you find your lawyer?

Teri: Actually, I found an agent instead. I was faced with a wonderful contract for my first big adult novel and I hadn't a clue about what I was reading. So I called my friend, mentor and original writing instructor, Lee Wyndham, and I cried. The next thing I knew, she got me one of the best agents in New York and I was never worried about contracts again.

tabitha: Which do you think is better, a lawyer or an agent?

Teri: The agent. Not only do they handle the legal matters, but they negotiate the deals.

kiddielit: Can you get an agent to represent you AFTER you are accepted by a publisher?

Teri: Sure. That is exactly what happened to me. I wrote an adult novel called To Love and Beyond. The editor herself asked me if I wanted her to suggest an agent, but by that time I had my agent and I was never happier. You can find out about agents in some books that are available. Try Agents, Editors and You by Michelle Howry and try How to Be Your Own Agent by Jeri Goldstein.

Valentine: How do you find an agent? How do you know if the person is any good?

Teri: You can call The Author's Guild in New York. Or you can use one of the books I just mentioned where you will find places that list the reputable agents. Never use an agent that charges you money up front for marketing your work. A reputable agent will be paid when you are paid and will take ten per cent or l5 percent of your royalties. There is a book called How to Understand and Negotiate a Book Contract by Richard Balkin and published by Writer's Digest Books that you might want to explore too.

dear: If you get a book contract, do you have time to find an agent before signing the contract?

Teri: Oh, sure. You have thirty to sixty days. Of course, it would be a good idea to think about agents before you even send the manuscript out. You don't have to get the agent then, but you can know what your options are.

Moderator: What kind of "stance" should a writer take when negotiating a contract?

Teri: I think that a new writer, especially, should be amenable. You want to let the editor know that you are going to give l00% effort to the project, and in exchange you have some "concerns." I would always try to be friendly and easy to get along with.

dear: What type of clauses are standard for book contracts?

Teri: Today there are all kinds of clauses. Of course, there are clauses that allow you to attest that the work is yours and yours alone. There are clauses about printing the book in other languages, which is important. One of my children's books was translated and sold in Japan. There are clauses about media like TV and movies. And naturally the clauses about the money you will receive and when. That comes first.

Moderator: What if a writer doesn't understand some of those mumbo jumbo contract clauses?

Teri: Never be afraid to talk frankly to your editor about the language of the contract clauses. You need to know exactly what you are signing.

dear: Have you ever walked away from a contract?

Teri: Yes, and I surprised myself. I have to go back to The Lucky Ghost Shirt which was bought by a publisher who saw my short story in a magazine and gave me a contract to write the book. At the time I had just send a manuscript of a biography of Patrick Henry to another publisher and I thought the deal I had with the Ghost Shirt publisher was better and that they would give me a better deal on Patrick Henry. So I did walk away from the first publisher and won a contract for the Ghost Shirt and for Patrick Henry at the same time. Believe me, I couldn't imagine my nerve at the time, but I did it.

Moderator: How much clout does a first-time book author have in regards to advances and royalties?

Teri: Practically no clout at all. You are usually just lucky that you were "the chosen one." I felt that way when my first book was chosen for publication. It was a biography of Pope Pius X for a Catholic publisher. Perhaps no one else would have been interested. I signed immediately on the dotted line without really knowing what I was signing. Never do that. At least try to understand the contract, but I don't think you will get very far trying to negotiate changes.

dear: Is it easy to get an agent without having a book published before?

Teri: Not really. But it is not impossible. There are reputable agents out there looking for talented writers, people they feel will sell and keep writing to sell again. If you are good, you can find someone good to handle you.

tabitha: Do publishing houses change the royalty percentage based on the advance given the writer?

Teri: Let's see. You get your advance. Let's say the advance if $8,000. This advance is "against royalties." This means you have to sell enough books to make up $8,000 in royalties before you can get any royalties beyond that. The $8,000 advance actually is royalty money.

tabitha: Actually, I was asking if a writer could negotiate a higher royalty percentage by taking a smaller advance.

Teri: I imagine you could do that. After all if your book turned out to be very successful, why not reward the writer by offering the higher royalty percentage. That sounds like a good idea. Kristi, what do you think?

Moderator: I think you're right. I've heard, and I've found it to be true mostly, that it's a good idea to go for the biggest advance you can, in case the book didn't sell well, for whatever reason, and it used to be said that if a publisher paid you a big advance, you were more likely to get a bigger share of their publicity budget and marketing because they had a lot invested in the book and needed to sell a lot of copies to get it back. I can't honestly say that that's true, but it makes sense.

cusuco: If a book is published abroad do you also get your 15% royalties from these sales or is it less?

Teri: Good question. Contracts vary when it comes to royalties abroad. This is something you can negotiate, once you are established. Often the foreign royalties are more than the royalties here at home. I've gotten a lot of money from Italy, Germany, Norway and England. More than I did get here at home, but this isn't always true. Again, it's the negotiations that make the difference.

Moderator: You often get 50% of foreign sales, at least with hard cover children's books.

Teri: Right, Kristi. The same with adult books.

dear: Is there anything you've regretted signing in a contract?

Teri: No, not really. I believe I was especially lucky in my contracts with publishers. They were all very fair with me, I think, and probably are with all writers.

kiddielit: Is it too forward to request a blank contract, or one with questionable things penciled in?

Teri: I've never heard of requesting a blank contract and I honestly don't think a publisher would offer one. Sometimes things are penciled in. I remember clauses being crossed out because they didn't apply.

paige: If a publisher accepts a story for publication and says they will follow up with a contract in 3 to 6 months after in-house editing, but haven't after 7 or 8 months, should the author remind them or just be patient and wait?

Teri: Paige, that is a very good question. Publishers have to abide by their word. You should hold the publisher to the deadline. They would do the same to you. And if you don't get a satisfactory answer, you really should withdraw your work and send it elsewhere.

dear: How do you get an agent? Query? Send clips?

Teri: Well, agents have their own rules, just the way editors do. Some agents want to see samples and clips. Some agents want to see a manuscript. You have to read their requirements. I think you will find the requirements in the books I mentioned.

Ktemean: Some people have told me that they have waited 4 or 5 years before they had their books printed after signing a contract. Is that what you are seeing?

Teri: Never. I'm surprised, but times have changed. Still, your contract should say when the book will be printed and you have the right to negotiate or to send the manuscript elsewhere if the publisher does not comply with the contract.

dear: How long should we wait to hear about our manuscripts from a publisher? How do you contact a publisher if they're past their response time?

Teri: Most publishers say how long it takes for a reply to a manuscript. If you do not hear from that publisher in the time suggested, then you should send a letter asking the status of your manuscript. If you still do not hear from the editor, then you should send a letter "signed receipt requested" asking for a response within a certain amount of time. If you do not hear within that time, send another letter "signed receipt requested" asking for the return of your manuscript in say "two weeks", adding that after that time you will be sending the manuscript to another publisher and your work is definitely withdrawn from the original publisher's consideration. It works and it gives you the option to try again if you have to.

Moderator: What kinds of requirements might the editor follow up with after a contract? Requests for what?

Teri: The editor might ask for revisions of some kind. If you have written a fiction book, these will have to do with characterization or plotting. If you have written nonfiction, often you will be asked to offer further information on your research or changes having to do with research that the editor feels is vital. You might be asked to help in some way with the promotion of the book.

Moderator: For revision requests: should the author make all the suggested revisions this first time, regardless of how he/she feels about the suggestions?

Teri: This is a tough question. Editors really know the market. They might feel that without certain changes the book will not sell as well. As a new writer you might want to be guided by your editors.

Moderator: Let's talk about the reactions of friends and family to that first sale. What are some things a new writer should expect--and maybe have to beware of?

Teri: Well, one thing we all know. "A prophet is without honor in his home town." That is something my own mother told me when I was first published. I was young to have my first book out at 23 and people didn't or couldn't believe that someone so young that they knew was published. People, friends and even family can say things that offend you and seem to belittle you. Be ready and don't let these comments bother you too much. I remember the town librarian calling to me outside the library after I had written a children's mystery. She looked at me disapprovingly and said, "Too many climaxes." Today I'm smiling at that one, but then I was hurt. Don't let these things affect you. You're the writer. You were published. They were not.

Moderator: How should the thinly disguised put-downs by friends or relatives be handled? (I wanted to scream every time someone asked me, "How long does it take to crank out a little kiddie book?")

Teri: I think I learned to laugh off these snide remarks. You know, Kristi, you could have said, "It's like having a baby, and about nine months will do it." What could they say to that one?

Moderator: Great answer! After a first book sale, how much time should an author expect to put into publicity? How much is too little, or too much?

Teri: I was surprised when the promotion department had all these appointments for me for my first book. There were book signings in New York bookstores, and a radio interview, as well as visits to other cities to talk to library associations. It went on for about two months where I was very busy running around. And at the time I was teaching school too. You have to pace yourself. I never did refuse any of the offers to promote the book, but I learned something. You can't go on forever pushing one book, when you should be writing the next book.

dear: Have you had people ask for free copies?

Teri: Oh, yes. You have to beware of this. You don't want to give away all your author's copies. It's tempting, but pretty soon it will cost you money.

cusuco: Does the publisher pay for the accommodation and the travel expense or is that from your budget?

Teri: Oh, yes. They usually do (when they've arranged the trip). A few times they sent me in the club car on trains. I loved that. But you can't keep that up long.

ClaraRose: What concerns do editors have when working with first sale authors, and how can a first sale author alleviate them?

Teri: I think first time authors are either timid and nervous or overbearing. The too timid writer won't be much good at giving book talks. And the overbearing author can alienate the audience. So the editors may send someone to accompany the writer and mentor the writer. It's a good idea.

cathy ann: An editorial assistant asked me to rewrite a book manuscript I submitted to fit a series they publish. Should I inquire about it if I don't hear anything in six months?

Teri: Oh, yes. Did you have a contract or did you do it on speculation? If you had a contract write to them when the time has expired, but if not definitely get back to them after six months. That sounds as if the editors were interested in you, Cathy Ann. Good luck. But write to them and follow up. Signed, receipt requested.

tabitha: How soon after a contract is signed will the writer see payment from the publishing house?

Teri: With the signing of the contract for the book, you should get your advance immediately, within the week.

dear: How long were you given to make the editorial changes requested by your editor?

Teri: This was rather open with my editors, maybe because I'm pretty quick to get things accomplished. I once remember being asked to revise the last half of a romance novel and I had three months to do it, though. That was a big job.

cusuco: Besides the free copies, how much does the publisher charge you for additional copies?

Teri: It depends on the publisher. Most of the time I've paid half price.

JAMES55CLINTON: For books, do you do multiple submissions?

Teri: Never. I've never used multiple submissions for anything. I honestly think that editors don't feel you are particularly interested in "them" when you send to several publishers at once. My agent NEVER did that.

cusuco: What about cover illustrations for books? Do you have an influence on what artwork is being picked for your books?

Teri: Very often the editor will show you sample covers and you can choose the one you want for children's books, but no one ever asked my opinion of a cover to an adult novel.

cathy ann: Has a publisher asked you for a written marketing plan?

Teri: No, I haven't had that experience.

tabitha: Let say a publisher wants the writer to publicize the book more than he/she has time for; will they be upset if the writer says no?

Teri: I think they might be a bit upset, but you have to let them know what you are comfortable doing. That's what counts.

Moderator: How do you find the balance between writing and doing the business side of it after publication?

Teri: I find that I won't stop writing for more than three months. After that, the business side has to fit my writing schedule.

Moderator: I'm sorry to have to interrupt here, but we're out of time. Teri, thank you for coming tonight and sharing this important information with our viewers. I wish I had know all this when I started out instead of stumbling around in my trial-and-error method! You've been a big help!

Teri: It's been a pleasure.

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks on June 20 when Karen Hammond will be speaking on a subject dear to our hearts: "Earn While You Learn: Ideas for Staying Financially Afloat While Breaking in as a Writer." She will also discuss tips for breaking into print and how to know when to quit your day job. You won't want to miss this interview! And now, good night, everyone!

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