"Finding the Story in Nonfiction" with Linda Skeers

Mel: is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Linda Skeers, and editor of the ICL web site.

Linda is Linda Skeers, formerly a children’s librarian and now a children’s writer of both fiction and nonfiction. Linda has been published in various magazines. Now her book, TOY MAKERS, will be published next January by Lucent Books. She is now at work on a number of book queries in different writing genres. Linda Skeers is the mother of two boys who have given her inspiration in writing for children.

Pink shows the usernames of the people who asked Linda questions.

Mel: Good July 10 evening to you! We'll hope that no storms develop during the next two hours, in honor of our special Chat Guest, Linda Skeers. Her topic is "Finding the Story in Nonfiction." Linda Skeers is wife, mother-of-two-boys, librarian and children's writer. Linda is in a nonfiction critique group that I also attend, so I have had the chance to see her enthusiasm for writing children's books in person. She has a special touch when it comes to finding AND keeping the story in her nonfiction books, which is why Lucent Books has asked her for two books already, with more to come in her future, I'm sure. Good evening and WELCOME, Linda!

Linda: Good evening! It's wonderful to be here!

Mel: You started your writing experience by being a librarian, Linda....

How did you start in librarianing, and then get to writing?

Linda: Good question. I've wanted to be a writer since I was about 7 years old...

I just took a roundabout way in getting here! I worked at two public libraries and in a middle school IMC, constantly being around wonderful children's books made me realize I really wanted to write. I decided the time in my life had come when I had to take the plunge and try writing and possibly fail, but at least I would have known I TRIED! I didn't want that regret hanging over my head.

Mel: Do you remember ANYthing you wrote when you were just 7 years old?

Linda: YES! I wrote a book called "Professor Snurklesnicklebop and the Cake that Flew." I still have it!

Mel: Honestly, do you EVER still think about that "possibly fail"?

Linda: Actually, I'm too busy to dwell on it much. I enjoy writing and researching and that's what I focus on. rejection is just part of the business.

Mel: You're the mother of two boys, aren't you? How did your children influence you to become a children's writer?

Linda: HA! They give me lots of ideas, and they both love to read so we still discuss books and authors. I value their opinions.

Mel: Linda, you’ve been writing fiction for years, yet your first two book sales are collective biographies. Why did you switch to nonfiction?

Linda: Two reasons, I knew that the percentage of nonfiction children's books that get published is much higher than for fiction so you stand a better chance of breaking in, and secondly, I discovered that nonfiction writing isn't that much different than fiction writing! It's as much fun and creative as fiction.

Mel: Linda, we've had a presubmitted question that I think would fit just now.

ponytailgirrl: How do you find the right balance of weaving a story around a nonfiction idea without straying too far back into the fiction realm?

Linda: Good question! I think it depends on the format, article or book. Find the connection between the subject and the child and focus on that connection, use just enough fictional details to breath life into the facts and make it read like a "story".

t green: Is it ALWAYS better to tell a story for non-fiction?

Linda: Can I give an example?

Mel: Oh yes, sorry to get ahead of ourselves! J

Linda: I've worked as a librarian so I know they are sometimes considered "boring". But they are anything but boring in Kathi Appelt's book DOWN CUT SHIN CREEK...

It's full of historical details of the librarians that rode pack horses in kentucky,but to keep from getting bogged down in the facts, she uses children to put in some excitement...here's what it says on the back cover: "Her saddlebags would be filled with books, one of which might be for you. Your heart would race, you'd be so happy that you'd shout, The Book Woman's Coming, the Book Woman's Coming!" Appelt gave her book a sense of excitement and anticipation by using one tiny fictional scene.

Mel: So, is it ALWAYS better to tell a story for nonfiction, as tgreen asked?

Linda: I don't think you always have to, but sometimes it makes the facts easier (and more fun) to read.

Mel: How did you FIRST come to the conclusion that writing nonfiction is much like writing fiction?

Linda: Back when I was working at the children's desk in a library a boy asked me for a "fun adventure story". I took him to the fiction section and starting pulling books out by

Gary Paulsen and Will Hobbs. The boy was disappointed. He said he wanted "real life true adventure stories." That's when it hit me that nonfiction is still a STORY.

writerx: What if it is a technical piece-would you make it an article versus a storybook?

Linda: It has voice, character, point of view--just like fiction.

How technical? David McCauley books are very technical yet are done in picture book format. I would probably write it out both ways and then decide which format works best for that particular subject.

Mel: How DO you find the "story" in nonfiction?

Linda: To find the "story," look at your nonfiction subject from a child's point of view.

What would THEY find most interesting about it? What would they connect with?

Here's an example: In Don Wulffson's book TOYS: AMAZING STORIES BEHIND SOME GREAT INVENTIONS, he doesn't recite dry facts but instead tells fun stories.

George Lerner's kids were having a food fight, complete with flying peas when he had an idea. If they liked playing with food so much he'd give them something to play with!...

he gathered items from around the house and created Mr. Potato Head! The way he explains it, is fun to read.

Diane Stresing: Have you sold many magazine articles that use "leftover" research from your work on the book? And if so, have you run these by your publisher first, to make sure they are comfortable with any overlapping material?

Linda: GREAT question! I have lots of leftover research that I hope to turn into shorter articles that's one of the great things about nonfiction. The research is never wasted. I can't write another book on the same subject for the same age group--that's part of my book contract--but I CAN write an article with a different slant for another age group. One bit of research can lead to many different projects.

t green: What's the best way to put facts together for an article?

Linda: Decide what the main focus is--what point do you want to get across, make a rough draft or outline and then include all the facts and information that support that main idea. I usually keep in mind my word limit so I know if I can add material as I write.

red2: Would a story at the opening be a way to introduce nonfiction?

Linda: Yes--an anecdote, story or question are all good ways to set the scene and get into your subject, nonfiction can be creative and fun!

zoie: What is the difference between based-on-a-true-story and nonfiction?

Linda: Nonfiction sticks to the facts, based-on-a-true story takes the basic facts of the incident or event and adds fictional elements and extra characters. Ann Rinaldi's historical fiction books use that format; they are all incredibly well researched and are built around a real event. Her novel THE COFFIN QUILT is based on the feud between the Hatfield's and McCoy's, yet has fictional characters telling their version of the events.

writerx: What a great example...thank you!

mbvoelker: Is it possible to integrate a story into a how-to? Into a craft book, for example?

Linda: I had never thought of that. I'm not very crafty! ; ) but I don't know why not. The "story" could be about a child attempting the project and then going through it step by step with the directions.

Mel: I'm thinking about an article I read about Johnny Appleseed, Linda. It was an article with the story of Johnny Appleseed, and had craft instructions for cutting an apple in half so as to see the "seed star" it makes.

Linda: I love that! Some picture books do have recipes at the end along with an author's note. Or sidebars could be included with crafts and info.

voyano: How will kids know what really happened and what's made up?

Linda: Another good question. I think it depends on how you handle the material. Using quotes and dates sets the time and place in nonfiction. Using real people and events also keeps material grounded in the "facts," but often historical fiction blurs the line so it's hard to tell. I don't think I'm much help with that question!

voyano: Might you confuse kids with too many "fictional details"?

Linda: If it's a novel, I don't think so. If you are writing a nonfiction book, keep the fictional details to a mimimum, but pick good details to show, not tell, just like in fiction. For an example in my own writing, I wanted to use a detail of A. C. Gilbert's personality, so I found a true story about his childhood that SOUNDS like fiction. He used to have to haul wood up a steep hill and it was hard and exhausting work. Nobody wanted to help until he built a chute going down the hill and any kid that hauled wood to the top got a hair-raising ride down the chute! I think fiction and nonfiction overlap to tell a good story.

Mel: You've given us GREAT examples, Linda! Do you have other examples of finding the "story" in nonfiction?

Linda: An important part of nonfiction is voice, just like in fiction. In BOUND FOR THE NORTH STAR, Dennis Fradin recounts serious and inspiring stories of slaves on the underground railway. The voice is poignant and powerful. For the book IT'S DISGUSTING AND WE ATE IT, author Solheim uses a light, silly voice to talk about true foods eaten around the world. Whatever your personal style of "voice" is, you can find a nonfiction subject to match.

margieh: How do you decide whether your nonfiction story would be better written as nonfiction or historical fiction?

Linda: It depends on what you want to include. If it's an event or isolated incident a nonfiction book might be the way to go, but if you want to explore how people REACTED to an event and want to write in-depth about an event, historical fiction gives you a much broader platform to work on.

cani: What is your favorite nonfiction book or article?

Linda: Oh, there are SO many. Maybe I could give you a few of my favorite nonfiction writers. ANYTHING written by Elaine Marie Alphin, James Cross Giblin, Jim Murphy, Susan Campbell Bartoletti. I love books that are funny and have lots of sidebars and fascinating facts.

Mel: I think your TOY MAKERS will be MY favorite when it comes out, Linda!

Diane Stresing: TOY MAKERS sounds excellent! Did you pitch the idea to many publishers, or was it an assigned book contract, a case where the publisher was looking for the right writer?

Linda: I lucked out. I decided to write nonfiction and studied publishers catalogs and books at the library and bookstores. I liked the books Lucent publishes and then I picked a series I liked, History Makers. From there I decided on a topic I thought was interesting and one I thought kids would like, too. I researched toy makers, wrote a query letter and a brief description of the people I chose and why and I sent it to Lucent. They loved the idea and asked me to write the first chapter. I did and they sent me a contract!

Mel: Could you suggest how we might best approach Lucent about being assigned a book?

Mel: Linda, earlier you threw us sort of a "teaser" about how a kid food fight led to the invention of the Mr. Potato Head game. That’s a mighty interesting story, could you expand on it? Tell us a story, please! J

Linda: George Lerner wasn't a toy maker but he did have children. And they did get into a massive food fight one night at the dinner table. He couldn't get them to stop flinging peas and decided all kids loved playing with their food. He gathered household items from around the house and a potato, and made the first Mr. Potato Head toy. Don Wulffson tells this (and many other funny TRUE stories) in his book, TOYS: AMAZING STORIES BEHIND SOME GREAT INVENTIONS. I had been researching toys and their origins and was crushed when his book came out, BUT that research gave me the idea to study the toy makers themselves.

Mel: THANK YOU--that’s a great story! Maybe because I LOVE to EAT! J

writerx: What is one tip in deciding article versus book?

Linda: How much information you have to share. If there are lots of different aspects to your topic, go for a book! If it can be completely talked about in a few hundred words, stick to an article. Also, are there lots of photos or illustration possibilities for a full-length book?

vwoman: How do you target children under seven if topic is "older"?

Linda: Try to use language and examples they will understand, try to find books on tough subjects written for young children and study how other authors handled it. Ask your local children's librarian for help.

cup: Please explain "books with sidebars." Thanks.

Linda: Many nonfiction books have separate little sections--usually encased in boxes--in the margins, or at the tops, sides or bottoms of pages, that have extra information in them about a subject. Usually it's a way to fit in facts and trivia that don't really fit well into the main text. In CRICKET magazine they use a little cricket symbol in the margins to explain things and define vocabulary.

paige: Greetings Linda and Mel! What age group do you write for, Linda? And how long should nonfiction books be?

Linda: I usually write for the 7^th- to 9^th-grade group. But I enjoy writing for any age group! I'd check with the publisher I was targeting to see what they say about word length. That gives you a ballpark word count to shoot for.

margieh: How long did it take to write Toymakers?

Linda: I did lots of research first so that made it a bit easier. I started it in October and finsihed it a few weeks ago. I made a work chart with the number of pages for the completed book broken down into chapters. I was able to look at the chart every day and know where I was and how many pages/days I had until my deadline. It kept me on track. I tried to write two pages a day.

Mel: WOW, your TOY MAKERS was created in just nine months!

silverdove: Is it possible to write two books for different age groups on the same research, and sell them both to the same publisher?

Linda: Yes, I have a friend who has done just that! She wrote a biography for young adults and then they asked for another biography on the same person for young readers.

Mel: You mentioned earlier what we’ve learned to call "voice" in fiction, does voice matter in nonfiction?

Linda: Yes, and all the same elements that are used in fiction can be used in nonfiction.

Margieh: How long did just your research for TOY MAKERS take?

Linda: That's hard to say. I love researching how things began and have a huge file of "interesting" facts and trivia. I used a lot of that information when I switched from researching toys, to their toy makers. I probably spent two weeks completely absorbed in the research for each person I wrote about, but the research continued even as I was writing. I still run across info even though the book is done!

zoie: I am thinking of writing a nonfiction picture book about farm animals. I picture it interacitve but don't know how much I should write about it to an editor, any ideas?

Linda: First, I would study any and all other kids’ books about farm animals. Then I would look through the WRITER’S MARKET for possible publishers and see where your book would be a good fit. Read their guidelines and look at books they have published, then write a query about your project and give them reasons WHY it would be a good fit for them, like they haven't done that topic, or they do books similar to how you envision yours, and so on. If they state they want a sample chapter in their guidelines, go for it!

Mel: EXCELLENT answer, Linda--THANKS!

writerx: Would you add a fictitious story line in an article?

Linda: It depends on what the topic is. If it's personal or emotional, sometimes having "characters" confronting a difficult subject works well. Also, if just stating the facts makes the writing dull and dry, a bit of fiction can bring it to life. An example: Elaine Marie Alphin has written about some interesting subjects, like vacuum cleaners and telephones. By putting in fascinating facts and stories about their invention she takes an ordinary, everyday object and makes it fun to read about!

Mel: GREAT you mentioned Elaine Marie Alphin, Linda. She will be our guest in two weeks!

writerx: Do you suggest adding fiction characters to a technical piece? It is a historical piece without real characters. I will thank you very much for your insight.

Linda: A question to ask: Would characters help explain the topic? Another way to use fictional elements in technical writing is to relate your topic to something kids are already familiar with. A friend of mine wrote about nuclear fusion and talked about how the process is like when crayons melt together and make a new color. She took a complicated scientific concept and explained it so kids could understand.

grandy1983: When I write nonfiction, I like to mix some dialogue and other elements of fiction into it. Is this a good way to entice that editor to read more of the manuscript?

Linda: Sounds like you have a good grasp of weaving fiction story-telling elements into your nonfiction! Another good way to entice an editor is to be enthusiastic about your topic and do your research. If you present the material in a lively fashion, the editor will notice.

t green: Can you give an example of "focus," "point" and "slant"?

Linda: Focus--what is your main reason for writing about your topic? What do you want to tell kids? In TOY MAKERS I wanted to show how these people persevered no matter how many challenges they faced, so I kept that in mind as I wrote. To talk about slant, let's take a subject that's been written about endlessly, dinosaurs! Books are still being published, even though the shelves of dinosaur books are overcrowded. Why? Authors find a new slant--they look at dinosaurs from a new perspective. There are now books about flying dinosaurs, and what dinosaurs ate and dinosaurs that swim. Dinosaurs is an old topic, but if you look at it from a new direction, there's still information about them that's "new."

Diane Stresing: How did you "test" the material in the book while you were writing it, to be sure you were covering the subject in a way that was interesting to kids? Did you have age-appropriate readers for drafts along the way? Did you adhere to a grade-level vocabulary list?

Linda: I often checked the reading level thingy in my computer that told me what grade level I was writing at (you can I'm SUCH a compter whiz). I didn't have kids read it but I've been told I have the sense of humor of a 12-year-old boy, so if I laughed or found something interesting, I figured they would too.

hayley: Do you use endnotes for mid-level books?

Linda: YES, that was something new for me. I kept very careful track of all my quotes and sources. Educational publishers want well researched and documented manuscripts.

silverdove: Will you explain what "faction" is, please?

Linda: I'm not sure what you mean.

Mel: Probably the mixture of fact and fiction, Linda?

Linda: Oh, okay! That's something I'm not sure I like but it's a hard thing to explain. As I understand it, you take a real person or event and make up dialogue and events to make them more interesting. It's something my writing group debates a lot! The book that comes to mind is the picture book about Amelia Earhart and Eleanor Roosevelt riding a plane. The book tells the story but in the author's note at the end she explains that it didn't really happen that way. I stay away from making up dialogue. I use quotes whenever possible.

Mel: Probably the reason you don't like faction much is the same reason why many editors don't. Most faction seems so "forced" to put across a nonfiction point using fiction.

grandy1983: I think Elaine Marie Alphin's GHOST CADET is a great example of fiction and nonfiction mixed together.

happytears: Is any research done at the same time as writing nonfiction?

Linda: I think research is an on-going process for both fiction and nonfiction, and that's one of the things I realized was so similar to both kinds of writing. Good research and details make ALL writing more powerful and interesting.

zoelynn: What computer thingy did you mean that tells you what reader level you are writing at? I would be very interested in such a tool.

Linda: I have one in my word processor’s TOOLS--after I use the grammar checker I can find out when age level I'm writing at.

Mel: In the WORD processing program, you click on "Tools" then on "Word Count." That will show the number of pages, words, characters, paragraphs and lines in your article or story. But to check the reading grade level, you have to FIRST set it up in the "Options." Click "Tools," then click "Options," then click the "Spelling and Grammar" tab. Put a check mark in the "Check Grammar with Spelling" check box there, and also put a check mark in the "Show Readability Statistics" check box, then click "OK" to close the box. After that, start the Spelling function in Word by clicking "Tools," then "Spelling and Grammar" and start the spelling/grammar check process. When it finishes, it will display a box about readability, with the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level at the bottom.

mbvoelker: My nonfiction has a very straightforward, me-to-you-over-the-kitchen-table style. Can fictional elements enhance this sort of style?

Linda: If you can write in an over-the-kitchen-table style, you probably have mastered the techniques! Some nonfiction writers stick so closely to reciting facts that the writing doesn't sound casual and friendly. Kids want it to read it as though someone were just talking to them. Good for you!

tigger: When you send a manuscript to a publisher, should you put a number in the text (in parentheses) to indicate which source in your bibliography provided which information?

Linda: If you have used direct quotes, I would include the endnotes, and a list of the sources you used. Even for a nonfiction article editors like to see your bibliography.

cani: What has been the best aspect of writing nonfiction for you?

Linda: The fun of learning about a new subject. I am CONSTANTLY asking my family, "Did you know that...". When I get that excited look in my eye after a long day of researching they tend to hide and I'm left talking to the cats. I also like the aspect of getting paid to write! ; )

happytears: Is it DESCRIPTION that can make an article with no story come alive?

Linda: YES! A few good details make all the difference in a factual article. Think of all your senses: Can you use them to descibe your topic? What does it look like? Is there a smell? A sound? Kids love gross things--look for an "icky factor" and kids will be fascinated.

hayley: It was very interesting when you talked about the slant on dinosaurs. That's what I am trying for in my biography. Thanks!

silverdove: Do you use the Internet for research? Why or why not?

Linda: I use it in the beginning to find books and articles for further research. I don't rely on it for information. I prefer a book or documents, but I have found contacts at museums that I never would have found if I hadn't started with the Internet.

margieh: Can you tell us more specifics about your research for TOY MAKERS?

Linda: First I found any book with a reference on one of my "people". I'd then look at that author's bibliography and get those books. I also searched for magazine and newspaper articles. I used google.com to look up the official company websites and the Internet to find fan sites. I wrote to the companies for information. Anytime another person was mentioned, I'd look for information on them too!

Mel: Can you find the story in ANY nonfiction subject, Linda?

Linda: I think so! Remember that everything is new to a child. They see things around them with fresh eyes. You don't have to search for complex subjects. James Cross Gilblin has written fascinating nonfiction books on the origins of forks and windows. If you are intersted in a topic, chances are good that a child will be, too.

writermom: Do you put endnotes in the bibliography and/or how do you do it?

Diane Stresing: Did you have to secure your own photos/photo rights? And did you have to pay for photo permissions from your advance, or did the publisher handle all of the photo issues?

Linda: That's one of the best things about working with Lucent! They have a person who does the photo research. If I saw a photo I liked, I'd email my editor and they would track it down and pay for the permission to reprint it!

silverdove: I remember watching on TV a Mr. Peabody (dog) and a boy. The dog spoke to the boy, they went about doing all kinds of fact-finding, finding true information on people and subjects. So would you consider this fiction based on facts?

Linda: "Mr. Peabody and My Dog Sherman"--I remember that well! Yes, I would. They were fictional (and fun!) characters BUT the information they talked about was true. They taught kids (me!) about history, but it was so fun I didn't realize I was learning something!

writerx: Should you try to use a lot of quotes in nonfiction, or do you try and "tell" the story?

Linda: I would select a few good quotes that really emphasize what you are talking about or that show a person's character. Don't use quotes just because you have them. If you can "tell" the story without them, sometimes it flows better. Use quotes only if they enhance the writing or drive home a particular point.

happytears: Can facts from other articles be quoted without permission?

Linda: The rule is that you may use 50 words or fewer from a source if you quote-mark it, then cite it in your endnotes, or by whatever your format system does to cite it.

tigger: If I find the same bit of information on several Internet sites, but not in a book, can I consider it a valid fact to use in my book?

Linda: I would try and track down the original source--maybe contact the webmaster for the site--or you could say, "It's been said many times," or "it's frequently reported that...". I wouldn't want to say that it was a FACT without a source to back it up, but you can use it if you make it clear it's "common knowledge."

Mel: Where do you come up with a good nonfiction subject?

Linda: Look around! I'm intersted in where things came from, trivia, popular culture. I think anything that sparks your interest can be a good subject, newspapers, talking to people, TV, movies, books. I think we are exposed to hundreds of good ideas every day; we just have to be open to them!

Mel: How important is research for nonfiction?

Linda: I think research is important in both nonfiction and fiction. By weaving facts into a story, it becomes stronger, like in Laurie Halse's Anderson's FEVER, 1793, the factual details make the story more emotional and it stays with you long after you finish the last page. In nonfiction, research is key, but after you have a list of "facts" you need to find the best way to present them in an entertaining manner.

Mel: Is there a good book about research?

Linda: Most writing books have a chapter on research but my favorite book is HOW TO BE AN INSTANT EXPERT by Stephen Spignesi. It's very user-friendly and uses lots of practical examples.

Mel: Isn’t a biography just a list of facts about a person’s life? How can you make that interesting?

Linda: By going beyond the basic facts and discovering the "stories" in a person's life. What were they like as a child? When I was researching Joshua Lionel Cowen I discovered he had put a tiny working steam engine in a wooden train he had carved. It exploded and set the kitchen on fire. He also wanted to know how the eyes in his sister's porcelain doll moved, so he cracked it open to see for himself! These two small incidents "show" what kind of curious kid he was.

Mel: I SEE how you can write with facts and not be--if you’ll pardon my expression--boring! (-:} Linda, I am so sorry to break into the good thing that's gotten going here. There have been lots of excellent questions from our chatsters, with an equal number of excellent answers by you. And beyond those, there were some excellent questions left over. So will you please come back to visit us for the THIRD time someday?

Linda: I'd love to -- I never get tired of talking about writing with other writers!

Mel: Two weeks from tonight, you will again be treated by a Summer of Refreshment Special Chat Guest. On Thursday, July 24, Elaine Marie Alphin will be here with us to speak and answer questions about "Writing Picture-Perfect Mysteries." Elaine's books often tend toward the mysterious, ranging from Civil War ghosts to time-traveling triceratops troublemakers to modern terrorists to serial killers. GHOST SOLDIER (companion to GHOST CADET, which was mentioned tonight), was nominated for the 2002 Edgar Award for Best Juvenile Mystery, and COUNTERFEIT SON won the 2001 Edgar for Best Young Adult Mystery. PICTURE PERFECT comes out in August, a mystery about a boy gone missing in the California redwoods. So welcome back to you all two weeks from tonight!

THANK YOU, Linda Skeers, for sharing your expertise in making sure children read our nonfiction by helping us see the importance of story, even in nonfiction. You have challenged us and stretched our ambitions. I can bet that some of us were persuaded of the "fictiony fun" that writing nonfiction is. Keep up that well started string of books, Linda! And to you all, good summer night--see you in two weeks!

Linda: Thanks so much--I had fun!

Mel: By the way, don't forget that next Wednesday, July 16, we'll have a joint chat with the Long Ridge Writers. Check this Friday's Writers' News for the details! GOOD NIGHT!