Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Victoria Sherrow and web editor of the ICL site.

Pink shows the user names of the people who are asking questions of Victoria.

Mel: I WELCOME you ALL WARMLY to the ICL Chat Room tonight, where we have an uncommon guest, Victoria Sherrow, with perhaps the deepest and widest experience in genres of children's writing that we've ever interviewed. With many magazine stories and articles, plus eighty books with her byline, Victoria is the one to ask ANY question about how to write for children, in both fiction and nonfiction. I hope she will tell you about the charming ghost story picture book which was the first picture book she published--as well as her latest book. Victoria, THANKS for coming tonight!

Victoria: I'm so happy to be here, Mel. It's great to talk with you and other people who love books and writing for children.

Mel: Victoria, what are your earliest memories of writing as a child? What kinds of things did you write?

Victoria: I think the first thing I recall writing was scribbles--on envelopes lying around the house. But then as I learned to read (and loved it so much!) I tried to write like my favorite authors. I wrote poems, short stories, imitation Nancy Drew-type books, and even tried writing my own long novels, as well as essays and the things I wrote for school. Writing of all kinds interested me, including humor. Like many of you, I wrote for the school newspaper and yearbook, and one year in junior high. I did a regular column in which I wrote humorous critiques of the cafeteria foods, actually using a pen name that relates to our host (Melvin Marinara). J

Mel: LOVE that MM name! It seems to be a common experience for us writers to first write like our favorite authors; I know I first wrote like Sid Fleischman--a children's writer hero of mine! How did you come to write your first picture book?

Victoria: That happened many years later, Mel. I had been working in my field of mental health counseling, then started law school, but had to move to California and could not continue. I had always wanted to write for kids. So I took course at UCLA with Eve Bunting and started reading a lot about writing (how-to books and articles) and tried to write stories and books. And I wrote several picture books that did not sell before THERE GOES THE GHOST did sell in 1981. The story itself came about in a fun way. I had set myself a goal of writing and submitting a story or article for every major holiday. While researching Halloween ideas, I came upon a British folklore creature called a boggart that haunted houses and would NOT leave. So I developed my own original folk-style tale around that, with a family of characters and a story in which they try hard to get rid of this ghost. Luckily an editor liked what I wrote. It was published a few years later.

Mel: Why do you think THERE GOES THE GHOST sold when previous picture book submissions hadn’t?

Victoria: I think the story was stronger with a well-paced plot. Also, it had great picture possibilities, the ghost angle is often popular, the language was colorful, and it had a solid theme.

oscar: Victoria, what turned you on to writing?

Victoria: I guess it's several things: I love to read and always have. I love to share feelings and ideas--to communicate--and I just love words and playing with words different ways, trying to express something in clear, interesting ways. New ideas are always buzzing in my head and I ache to get them on paper and move them around and see what develops.

del: I'd love to hear about your transition from writing for magazines to writing and getting published with your picture books.

Victoria: My first sale (hallelujah, what a day!) was to Highlights, after numerous manuscripts had been rejected. At the same time, I was continuing to write stories and picture books and finally did a book that sold. It took a few years.

oscar: Were you discouraged by rejection letters?

Victoria: Yes, I was, but I did learn to take rejection better as time went on and I even did try to learn from it. Some rejections are less harsh than others and some editors will even write a brief note of encouragement. So I would make a note of those and send these editors new pieces of writing. Another way I buffered the pain was to send out more than one thing at a time. So when something came back rejected, I still could hope another piece might sell (a story, article, proposal, etc.).

kwinfield: Did you find it hard to break into the "published" world?

Victoria: It is hard, yes, but maybe I was too naive to give up or become totally discouraged. And I did keep telling myself that if I practiced my craft, came up with solid ideas, and did careful marketing, I would eventually sell.

mbvoelker: I am interesting in non-fiction, particularly how-to books about knitting, embroidery and other fibercrafts. What are the basics I need to know about how-to books for older middle grade and young adult readers?

Victoria: I had a lot of fun writing a how-to for young teens a few years ago. It was called DREAM ROOMS and gave ideas for decorating, especially on a budget. So I suggest you go to the library and take a look at some well-written books like the kind you are envisioning. You probably already know your subject matter well, so you will want to understand how to target one of those age groups and develop something that suits that market. You can get some good ideas how to plan and "pace" a book like this, which likely will include some narration, instructions, and illustrations.

Mel: Victoria, how specific were you in your DREAM ROOMS book?

Victoria: That book contained pretty specific ideas for organizing furniture, choosing colors and patterns, and making simple things, such as pillows. It gave kids ideas about how to decorate to suit their needs and personalities and lifestyle, how to set up a study area and organize their closets and shelves, how to add individuality, things like that.

kwinfield: Do you have a daily writing schedule? To keep on track?

Victoria: Yes, indeed! My schedule has changed through the years as my three children were at different ages and stages, but I did make time to write every day unless there was some dire event, such as illness. These days, I start writing after my youngest goes to school (around 8 o’clock) and continue most of the school day, taking breaks only for things that must be done, such as teacher conferences, health care appointments, errands (and of course, coffee). J I sometimes work in the evenings or on weekends to meet deadlines.

soradina: How many hours a day do you devote to writing time, and how where you able to write so many books in a short amount of time?

Victoria: When I am completing a project, I may work 50-60 hours a week writing. As for the number of books, remember that I’ve been writing and teaching full-time since 1980, and the books differ in length. So while some books run 100 pages or more, I have written others that are shorter, such as early-reader biographies. But I do think that it's possible to finish quite a lot of writing if you work on it full-time through the years.

Mel: Victoria, here's a question sent in ahead of time. The asker would like you to talk about writing for "flat fees." What are flat fees, and have you written for them?

Victoria: Yes, I have written books for a flat fee, as well as others for what is called "advance and royalty." With a flat fee, you are paid a set amount for the whole project, whereas with an advance and royalty you are paid an "advance amount" charged against future royalties on the book (which is set at a percentage of the book's cost). Then you collect royalties later on if the book continues to sell copies beyond the advance amount. I hope that's clear. Anything to add Mel?

Mel: Yes, flat fee is a GOOD way to get started in publishing, do you agree?

Victoria: Yes, I do. And sometimes the flat fees are quite fair, even generous, so that you are earning about what you would with a royalty contract. Some publishers who offer flat fees are more willing to work with new writers, and that is how I got my first nonfiction book contract, by agreeing to write a book for a small flat fee. Though the payment was small, I learned a lot and gained a book credit in the process.

Mel: Are there certain kinds of books, such as Hi-Lo books, that are paid for with flat fees, Victoria?

Victoria: I believe some Hi-Lo books are done that way while others are advance-royalty books. It seems to depend more on the publisher as well as their budget for a particular book or series. I have done Hi-Lo books both for flat fee and with a royalty contract.

Mel: Maybe we’d better talk about what a Hi-Lo book is.

Victoria: Good idea. They are books written at an easier reading level for young people who are older in age than that reading level. So the interest level needs to be "high" and appropriate for the ages of the readers while the vocabulary and sentence structure are not too complex that they discourage the readers.

Mel: Could you tell us, Victoria, which publisher you wrote a Hi-Lo book for a flat fee, and which for a royalty contract?

Victoria: Yes. As one example, I wrote a biography of Pete Sampras for Enslow and that was a royalty contract. And for that same publisher, I did a series of books on disasters (such as hurricanes and fires) for flat fees.

silverdove: Before being published did you enter into contests?

Victoria: I think I did enter one or two contests but did NOT win. I do think entering contests is a GREAT idea because you have a deadline to meet and a certain kind of piece to write, for example middle-grade mystery or early biography or humor, etc. This can help to motivate you as well as give some structure. I am thrilled to say that some of my students have won contests so I had the vicarious thrill of seeing their well-deserved success!

silverdove: Do you have an opinion on contests that ask for fees?

Victoria: I would be careful about that. What is the purpose of the fee? Possibly the purpose of the "contest" is to make money for those who run it? Does the entrant get anything for this fee besides a chance to enter (such as a legitimate critique service)?

drk: Hi Victoria, how long have you taught at ICL?

Victoria: I've been teaching nearly twelve years now and it's been very rewarding. I have met so many fine people and love to watch their writing progress and have a small part in that. I also enjoy the chance to connect with writers from many different places.

kwinfield: Do you write any fantasy?

Victoria: Yes, I have written short story fantasy; and my picture book, THERE GOES THE GHOST, falls into that category. My short story fantasies included some stories about wizards, talking birds, and other imaginary creatures.

zoie: How do I know if the story I write is for a magazine or picture book?

Victoria: That is a terrific question and it's one that writers often have to think about carefully when they write a short piece for the very young. In general, a picture book needs to be much more substantial, with more staying power than a magazine story--something you want to read many times. And it must fit the picture book format of about 32 pages with segments of text and lots of picture possibilities for each page and "spread." In addition, editors look for appealing characters and a strong plot and that "something" special that makes it worth the expense of hard covers, such as great use of language, fun and humor, a wonderful theme, and other features that give it "child-appeal."

Mel: Victoria, how and when did you move from writing picture books and fiction to nonfiction?

Victoria: Well, I began writing nonfiction in 1989 but did not stop writing fiction, since I continued to do picture books and story books as well. But I did begin to focus more on nonfiction and wrote quite a few nonfiction books, both because the topics were so interesting and because it meant a steady flow of work. It was quite natural for me to write nonfiction, since I have always been an avid nonfiction reader myself and had a broad education studying the biological and social sciences, history, and law. The idea of doing a long, complicated book seemed hard at first, but I soon realized it was again one word after another, one paragraph after another, then one page after another. My very first nonfiction project was to rewrite someone's book for an editor friend, followed by a short animal-nature book I authored for Dillon Press.

Bapt: What kinds of things do you do to market your books?

Victoria: The publishers really do most of the marketing, but an author can also attend events that help to market our books. We can read them at bookstores, schools, and libraries, and go to book-signing activities. With nonfiction books, schools and libraries are the main markets and the publisher has representatives to help sell the books. They send out printed materials, and use Internet ads and ads in the major magazines to promote your book. Librarians look to book reviews when they buy books, so you have to hope at least two or three magazines review your book, such as Booklist and School Library Journal. And of course if it receives some honor, like an award, that definitely helps sales.

ccollier: You must be a hero at your child's school library!

Victoria: That has to be one of the most fun things about writing a children's book, reading it for your child's class and in the library. I enjoy that a lot. One thing the teachers always ask is that I bring in rough drafts when I visit the classroom to discuss my writing so the kids can see how much effort it takes to revise and polish a book from that first "idea" to the finished product.

Mel: Can you tell us about the book you last read to your child's class, and about the children's reception?

Victoria: My youngest is now in 8th grade but last year, I brought a book about Bats and shared a chapter from that. I still read for younger kids at the elementary school all three of my children attended and they invite me to visit on National Reading Day and other occasions like that. The last time I went to the high school was to discuss the First Amendment as it applied to teens, while sharing a book I wrote about that topic.

Mel: Isn't it GLORIOUS, Victoria, to be such a HERO for kids when you visit schools!

del: Please define "solid idea" versus a picture book manuscript that's "too slight."

Victoria: Editors may differ in what they consider "slight." Here are some common reasons: The idea has been done many times and the author didn't give it a fresh "twist" or especially interesting treatment. The characters are not well developed and don't seem believable, or there is not enough "feeling" in the book. The book may also seem "slight" because no real theme comes through, so the story seems shallow. Maybe the writing is not vivid and distinctive, as it needs to be in a picture book. These are things editors look for so a book will have "staying power"

oscar: You must be great at time management!

Victoria: Probably not better than the average person, but a deadline can push you to greater heights of time management. I do focus pretty well and will do my writing even if the house is messy or I’d rather do something else, like play tennis or meet friends for lunch. I don't let myself jump up every few minutes to dust shelves, alphabetize my CDs, play computer games, or try out new recipes from the "Food Channel," e.g.

maryk: How many writing projects can you have going at one time?

Victoria: I have sometimes done more than one at a time if they were different and perhaps different lengths, such as writing a long book while also developing a story or outline. But usually one book is enough to do at one time.

kwinfield: Do you have any tips for wells of creativity run dry?

Victoria: Ah, yes, the "creativity well"! With children's writing, I think you can find lots of sources for ideas, such as visiting a playground to look at possible characters, reading a newspaper, doing volunteer work to see kids in action, thinking of places you’ve visited or upcoming holidays, and asking the "what if" question. We could do a whole chat on IDEAS.

clark: How did you pick who to write about for young reader biographies?

Victoria: For the young reader bios, I was given a list to choose from and I picked the two people who interested me most.

mrspigglewiggle: I've just joined a writer's support group. Are you or have you been involved in such a group? If so, what was the thing you liked best about it.

Victoria: I belonged to a writer's group when I lived in California and it was wonderful. All of us were writing regularly and were very committed. Since few of us had published at the time, we grew together. We critiqued each other's work, encouraged each other, and helped with marketing tips. I am still in touch with some of them 23 years later! And one of them suggested I send my picture book, THERE GOES THE GHOST, to the editor at Harper who bought it. I believe the groups are most helpful when people have a sincere desire to help, can be honest yet supportive, and people focus on the writing process.

Mel: Is practicing law something that you put completely out of your mind, Victoria, or do you still think about being a lawyer?

Victoria: I did not finish law school, Mel, and don't regret that because I went on to have three children and I love to write, and writing fit well with child-rearing and other things I was doing. On the other hand I loved what I learned in law school and was able to use that background to write some books about constitutional laws and some Supreme Court cases.

Mel: Excellent combination!

sassi: What would a typical "fair" flat fee amount to for a picture book?

Victoria: I'm not sure people would agree on the word "fair" since the amount of work can differ from book to book and people invest different emotions in their work and have different ideas about its monetary value. But, I think the average picture book earns a few thousand dollars, so a flat fee in that vicinity might turn out to be about what someone would earn with a royalty contract if the book just has low-to-average sales.

anne-marie-p: No questions--I just want to say hi to my A instructor!

Victoria: Anne-Marie! So good to "see" you here tonight.

walkinggrl: Are Hi-Lo books usually nonfiction, fiction or both?

Victoria: They can be either fiction or nonfiction and there seems to be a need for quality books of both kinds.

silverdove: How often do you send in manuscripts to magazines and to publishers of books?

Victoria: I have not been sending out magazine pieces regularly in recent years because I was busy doing longer projects. But in the early years, I did try to send out a short piece nearly every week while also working on a longer project. For books, I have been getting regular assignments from publishers so I send the manuscript when it's done and that can be once or twice a year. I actually did send out two new picture book manuscripts this past month, because I had some new ideas after attending a conference. So I'll wait and see what happens.

sassi: When did you know you had what it took to succeed full-time?

Victoria: From the time I decided, "This is what I want to do," I hoped that I had what it takes, but of course who knows? When all those manuscripts kept coming back with rejections, I had my doubts. But some people I trusted said they thought I could write. Then I sold that first story to Highlights and probably that was the day I felt, yes, I can do this.

silverdove: And I bet law school sure helps with understanding contracts! If the book doesn't sell enough to cover the advance, is it required to send back the remainder of money?

Victoria: Oh, those contracts! I think we all have faith that when we deal with reputable companies, the contracts are fair, even though they often seem so complicated. About the advances, no, I never heard of a situation where the author was required to pay back an advance if the book didn’t sell enough copies to cover it.

cup: How do you get regular assignments from publishers?

Victoria: If you write a book for a publisher who does series or numerous books each year, they may ask you to do more books for them as you complete assignments.

kwinfield: About how long have you written per day? Or has the time varied?

Victoria: My writing schedule has varied through the years as my children were at different ages. I did always make at least SOME time to write unless I had an unusual event, such as illness. With younger children, I wrote in smaller "bits" of time throughout the day and evening but when they grew older, I could pretty much write during the whole school day.

mrspigglewiggle: You mention that you work on writing after your child goes to school and you also teach at ICL. How does that work?

Victoria: I work on my ICL lessons in my home office, since the course is done through correspondence.

passion: How many rejections did you get before your foot was in the door?

Victoria: Gee, how high can we count? I have often said I got enough to paper at least one wall of my study. And when I did finally get my toe in the door with that first story sale, the other editors didn't seem to realize it, because I still got rejections now and then . . . and will no doubt receive others as I continue sending out new things that may or may not appeal.

patrickr: I've been writing a lot of middle-grade stories of about 2500 words. They seem too long for magazines, and too short for chapter books. Any advice? Can a chapter book be this short?

Victoria: That may be a problem, though I don't know the word lengths for every chapter book market. As you said, most magazines want something shorter, usually 1000 words or less, and chapter books may run at least twice as long as what you are doing. In your shoes, I guess I would be asking myself: Can I cut these down to size for a short story or is the material deep enough for a longer book? And if you have a story that seems to have enough character and plot possibilities, I would try to get it to chapter-book length.

Mel: EXCELLENT answer, Victoria!

mbvoelker: What about nonfiction picture books? Is there a good market for them? Do you still have the freedom to use the "lyrical" language of many picture books in the nonfiction picture books?

Victoria: Yes, you will find a wide range of lengths and styles in nonfiction, including picture book nonfiction, such as the Gale Gibbons’ books, some by Millicent Selsam, lots of other good ones! And if your style is "lyrical" and it suits the subject matter, that might be appealing. Nonfiction does indeed "tell a story" and there are themes in a nonfiction book, too.

sissyg: What are some of your best sources for inspiration and ideas that help you to achieve that "something" special that editors look for?

Victoria: The "something special" depends on the project, but I'll try to give some examples. In one book, it might be really colorful language and a rhythmic style that is fun to read aloud. Or it could be an unusual setting or character that sets a story apart. In one of my own stories, I found a natural way to add history and educational value to a story with a Grandparents' Day theme. I wove in some information about cranberries and Native Americans to a story in which a boy picks berries with his grandparents. So those "extras" may "sell" an editor on a story, as can a wonderful theme that adds another layer of meaning to your plot. And as we know, characters make all the difference—someone distinctive and unforgettable, and one that kids can identify with. I hope that answers your question.

sissyg: Do you feel that writing involves you 24-7-365? Or do you find a few seconds to think about other things?

Victoria: Oh, I have a full and normal life with non-writing activities--friends, family, outside activities, etc. But being a writer does affect how I look at things or maybe think about writing ideas when I am doing other activities . . . or how I eavesdrop on my kids to get new dialogue tips.

ell: Would humor be good in a serious, fiction adventure?

Victoria: I think many people would say yes, as long as it "fits" in a natural way. Lighter moments can add to the pacing of your plot because long blocks of seriousness and danger may just become monotonous. And of course, the humor must fit with the characters, but that should be possible because people in serious situations often turn to humor or even nervous humor.

lizr: Which do you recommend that an unpublished writer should do, send exclusive submissions or simultaneous submissions?

Victoria: I think both are fine if you are honest and follow the publisher's guidelines. Some publishers don't mind, while others do. Some just want to be notified. If an idea is very timely, you may need to send it to more than one place at a time (and inform those editors), but if the idea/topic is not so time-sensitive, as a beginning author I might send it one place at a time and give that place a certain number of months to respond before sending it out again.

Mel: How did you decide where to send THERE GOES THE GHOST--your first picture book?

Victoria: When I finished writing that back in 1980, I told one of my writing group friends about it in a long-distance call, and she said she had just heard the name of a nice editor at Harper & Row, so why didn't I try there? I was quite surprised and pleased when they bought the book (months later) because I figured I would be sending it out numerous times and it wouldn't sell to such a large, well-known company.

del: Can you walk us through the revision process of a picture book manuscript?

Victoria: It's a lot more fun than revising a 300-page nonfiction book! But of course, it is a challenge to get any book "just right," the way you and the editor want it. So with a picture book, it really depends on how the editor feels about your original manuscript. In my case, I did revise all my picture books at least two or three times, and sometimes more, with some of the revisions involving only a few lines or words here and there. Sometimes, we added some dialogue or developed a character better or cut some words. In my second book, WILBUR WAITS, I changed the plot a bit to flesh out my original story and develop the theme (friends are nicer than toys) better.

silverdove: Please explain what you mean by rough drafts.

Victoria: Those are earlier versions of the story or book as you start working on it, and before you revise and polish.

sassi: Do book publishers purchase previously published magazine pieces?

Victoria: I guess you are talking about a possible picture book here?

Mel: Yes, I think so, Victoria.

Victoria: That is possible, so long as you did not sell all rights to the magazine.

sophie: How many words does a children's book for ages 5-9 have to be?

Victoria: That can vary. Picture books may have no words at all and range from there to a thousand words or more. For children 5-9, you may also have early-reader books of a few thousand words or more. I would have to know more about the kind of book.

sister: Who is responsible for the pictures that go with a story?

Victoria: The publishing company usually chooses the artist unless the author is also a talented illustrator.

sister: Thank you!

sassi: Any recommendations for starting or joining a writers' group?

spudsie: I'm a single mom of 9. How and when and can I push myself to write? Inspiration is here, but exhaustion's here too!

Victoria: I know exhaustion very well--have had the experience of pulling "all-nighters" or functioning on very little sleep for days in order to do my writing. I also have been a single parent (my first husband died when my older two children were ages 2 and nine months). It's a huge challenge to work while rearing children by yourself. And you obviously know that you must make the most of the time you do have by cutting out activities that don’t help you reach your goals (like social phone calls, watching TV, etc.). You will find some great ideas on the ICL Website for time-management (also in many of our ICL publications), as well as learning from busy mothers in similar situations. Some tips: make sure you have all your materials organized and ready to go so you can sit down and write when those bits of time do come around. Take pen and paper along when you’re waiting in doctor or dentist’s offices or in the car. Many mothers get up early to write or do it when the children go to sleep, but I understand how tiring this could be in your situation. Also, use your resources fully, such as trading child-care time with other moms who need "a break." Have older children help care for the younger ones. Make sure all your children do as much for themselves as possible and also make sure they all have chores (probably you do this already!). Organize your life so you combine errands and appointments. Prepare simple meals to save time for writing. (e.g. plain roasted chicken with baked potatoes and sliced veggies is healthy, economical, and quick!) Or even: Send kids to the "movies"--with a quality video in your TV set and some popcorn--while you write in the next room. If some of your children are too young for this, choose their nap-time for the movie. I admire your hard work and determination and wish you much success. As we know, family comes first. But it’s also great for children to see their parents pursue their dreams and develop their talents.

Mel: Victoria, I wish we had two MORE hours to ask questions and listen to you. Not only have you published so widely, but you are so well able to explain about children's writing and answer our questions with assurance. Really, the two hours has made only a start with you, and I hope you will be able to come back to talk with us again.

Victoria: And I, too, am sorry we have to end this now. It's been a pleasure and I look forward to coming back.

Mel: Please return to our chat room two weeks from tonight, March 20, when Hope Irvin Marston--who was here among us tonight--will be coming backstage to talk with you about a poupourri of approaches in writing for children. Hope has published very helpful articles on our ICL web site, and knows the value of reading for children's writers. She is a writer who has paid her dues, and whose writing is well grounded in reading. Please come back two weeks from tonight, March 20, for another "chapter in writing for children." And we so appreciate your coming to the chat room tonight! WARM THANKS to you again, Victoria, for bring us your wide experience in writing for children, and answering our questions so effortlessly--THANK YOU!