Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Moral Choices in Children's Writing" with Sandra Humphrey

Thursday, August 31, 2000

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, author of 23 books for children and teens, over l00 articles for adults and children, and web editor for this site.

Sandy is Sandra Humphrey, a retired clinical psychologist who writes values books for children, including If You Had to Choose, What Would You Do? and It's Up to You...What Do You Do? You can read about Sandra and her work at http://www.kidscandoit.com.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews are held 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! Welcome to tonight's interview on "Moral Choices in Children's Writing" with Sandra Humphrey. We're in for a thought-provoking discussion tonight, I'm sure. Sandy is a retired clinical psychologist who writes values books for children, including If You Had to Choose, What Would You Do? and It's Up to You...What Do You Do? Without further delay, I would like to give a warm welcome to Sandy Humphrey!

Sandy: Hi, everyone! I'm really glad to be here!

MODERATOR: Sandy, your background is somewhat unusual for a children's writer. How long have you been writing and how did you get started?

Sandy: It seems like "forever." I'm one of those people who can't "not write." As a child, I write poems and in college I majored in English and began writing short stories. As a psychologist, I even loved writing up case summaries which the other psychologists found "tedious."

MODERATOR: You were a clinical psychologist for more than 31 years. How difficult was it to shift gears from being a therapist to being a writer?

Sandy: It wasn't difficult at all. I like to think that writing was really my "first calling" and that my years as a psychologist were preparation for my real career as a writer. I think writers and psychologists have a lot in common: we both use words to encourage and influence people in some meaningful way.

MODERATOR: You have written two books for children ages 6-12: IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO and IT'S UP TO YOU...WHAT DO YOU DO?. How would you describe these books?

Sandy: Both books are interactive books about moral choices that can help guide children through everyday problems and instill in them a sense of responsibility for their own choices. Each book has 25 stories with thought questions at the end of each story which give adult and child a wonderful opportunity to dialogue together about values and moral issues.

MODERATOR: Why did you decide to write these particular books?

Sandy: I want all our kids to grow up having strong character (which I think is lacking in many of our current role models) and I believe that having a strong value system is an important part of having strong character. Books can be wonderful vehicles for facilitating discussions between child and adult about important issues which can help to build strong character.

MODERATOR: How do you define strong character? What do you mean by that?

Sandy: Everyone probably defines strong character in their own way, but to me it is doing what you know in your heart is right, even when everyone around you may be doing something else. I think it means being willing to stand up for what you believe, even when sometimes it may mean standing alone.

MODERATOR: But wouldn't everyone's value systems be different, based on their particular beliefs?

Sandy: I agree that people's value systems may differ, but I think it's important for everyone to have strong beliefs and know what those beliefs are. Today many people believe that it is "politically correct" to see everything in shades of gray and that there are no longer any absolutes. I believe there are absolutes in life and that we should talk about these absolutes with our kids.

MODERATOR: By "absolutes" I assume you're thinking about behaviors such as cheating or lying to get what you want, but why do you think we need these kinds of books?

Sandy: By "absolutes" I mean really any form of dishonesty and I think books can be a wonderful catalyst for getting our kids thinking and talking about important moral and social issues. It's pretty hard to say to a child, "Let's sit down and talk about values." Whereas reading a story together can be fun and then talking about the thought questions afterward is just a natural "next step" for opening up some really great discussions with our kids.

MODERATOR: Is there really a market for such books?

Sandy: I know there's a market for them because when I visit elementary schools and confirmation groups to talk about moral issues, I am always impressed by how ready and willing our young people are to talk honestly and enthusiastically about these issues. I guess that's my primary objective for writing my books: to get kids THINKING and TALKING about important issues in their lives.

Tweaker: Sandra, what age range(s) did you say your books were suited to? What age (range) is best for teaching about right/wrong?

Sandy: I tend to write for ages 6-12, but it's really never too early to begin talking about values with your kids.

MODERATOR: Getting away from issues for a minute and back to the books themselves, did you find a publisher for your first book (IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?) right away?

Sandy: Hardly! That book was sent out over fifteen years ago. I believed it would be a wonderful resource for both parents and teachers to help our children become more comfortable talking and thinking seriously about their values and beliefs, but apparently no one else thought so. One editor had me do some VERY major rewrites, and then after I did the rewrites, she decided the "timing" wasn't quite right for such a book, so she changed her mind about publishing it.

MODERATOR: That sounds like a real test of your perseverance. So why did you keep trying?

Sandy: I actually didn't keep trying at the time. I waited a number of years before sending it out again and then five years ago the book finally found a home. Again, the publisher wanted some major revisions in order to market the book to a younger reader, so again I did the rewrites. This time the book was published (10/95) by Prometheus Books and has received very positive reviews. I think that the bottom line here is that, if you really believe in what you're doing, don't ever give up.

MODERATOR: It seems that you were fortunate to have finally found a publisher who shares your objectives. How important is this?

Sandy: I think that's what writing is all about. Finding the right publisher who believes in the same things you believe in. It's not always easy, but it is very much worth the effort to keep trying until you do find one. Prometheus Books has now published my second children's book values IT'S UP TO YOU...WHAT DO YOU DO? (1/99) and I have completed a third book for them (HOW WOULD YOU FEEL...WHAT WOULD YOU DO?).

bernie: I am the mother of five and teach religion classes at various grade levels. Do you think it is ever too late to teach these values?

Sandy: Absolutely not. Kids really listen to us more than we think they do and we always have to keep trying.

Shannon Bee: Our area of Iowa is quite conservative, so how do you know how it'll play somewhere else?

Sandy: With the books I write, it's up to the parent and child to set their own values and beliefs. The important thing is to get your kids thinking and talking about them, so that they do know what they believe.

Shannon Bee: Did you keep writing all that time [while waiting for the book to find a home]?

Sandy: No, actually in the beginning, I was so busy with kids and job and so frustrated that my book wasn't published after all my work, that I stopped writing for a few years.

SaraJ: I've heard a lot of pros and cons about the Harry Potter books because witches and warlocks were the heroes. What do you think?

Sandy: To be honest, I've never read any of the books and I probably should so that I know what's going on. I tend to steer clear of anything that smacks of the occult, including witches.

bernie: Are there any plans for books for young adult ages? Do you think the present books would work with middle school ages?

Sandy: Actually they do work with the middle schools. My second book is the one I use with the confirmation groups I visit and we get some really great discussions going!

Shannon Bee: How do you make your stories not sound preachy?

Sandy: I generally write with a sense of humor and tend to keep my stories fun and light, even when they're about very serious subjects.

MODERATOR: If you had a "mission statement" for your books, what do you think it might be?

Sandy: I hope my books will help empower our young people by getting them THINKING and TALKING about the important issues in their lives: character issues, their fears and insecurities, their feelings, their dreams, etc. I think you have to have a passion for whatever you do and my passion is to help our young people feel better about themselves, so that they can cope successfully in the ever-changing world around them.

MODERATOR: How do educators respond to your books? Are they called preachy by some people?

Sandy: Teachers and guidance counselors love the books. I get e-mail and phone calls from all over the country with teachers telling me to "keep writing" because they need more books like these. They tell me that, after talking about the stories in the books, their students are much more sensitive to each others' needs and feelings.

Paige: I'm with you, Sandra. I think our children need to have a good strong set of values so they have something to draw on when they have to make difficult decisions, but how do you get schools to accept what may not be considered "politically correct?'

Sandy: Actually the schools don't, but the teachers do. I am going in through the back door with my books rather than through the front door which has too many rules and regulations these days.

Maudy: How do you keep your stories "generic" in a world with so many value systems?

Sandy: It's actually not that hard. Kids tend to have pretty universal problems, even though the situations themselves may be somewhat specific.

bernie: We use take home papers in our classes. Did you ever write for these types of publications?

Sandy: Nope, I haven't and I have no idea what you have to do to write for them. [Note from moderator: These take-home papers are listed in the magazine market guides just like the magazines. I got my start in fiction there.]

Maudy: Where do you feel "self-esteem" comes from? Can it be given, or must it be earned?

Sandy: You just hit on one of my pet peeves. I actually have written a parenting article about that called "Self-Esteem Must Be Earned." If it isn't earned, it counts for nothing.

SaraJ: Why is that a pet peeve?

Sandy: Because I think too many people are telling parents to give their kids positive feedback when they haven't earned it. Freebies can do more harm than good and kids have to earn what they get or it means nothing.

Shannon Bee: Yesterday I observed a second grade class and already I could see how cruel they could be to each other. Do you deal with this type of problem often in your books?

Sandy: Absolutely! And when I visit elementary schools, we actually talk about all the negative experiences kids have had at the hands of other kids. Thinking about these things and talking about them help the kids to see just how the other kids feel.

MODERATOR: Sandy, back to your books: Do you get much feedback from parents?

Sandy: I get wonderful feedback from parents too. One single father wrote to tell me how his six-year-old son brings my first book to the dinner table every night, so that they can read a story after dinner together. And I had a mom call me to tell me how her junior-high daughter keeps my second book under her bed and reads from it every night. Talk about peak experiences, this is why we write!

MODERATOR: And talk about great feedback! Do you have a particular age group that you write for? If so, why?

Sandy: I find I tend to write for the 8-12 group mostly, just because I find this the easiest group to write for. But then I love talking to junior high kids because they are so verbal and so "brimming over" with ideas. So I guess I would have to say I love writing for both groups.

MODERATOR: Where do you find your material for the stories in your books?

Sandy: Teachers and parents tell me my stories are "right on target" for what they see in and out of the classroom which is really reassuring. I get my material from "everywhere": my Sunday school students (1st graders), our granddaughter (now age 9 who has lived with us since age 2), the students in the elementary schools I visit, the young people I work with as a confirmation mentor, the kids in the confirmation groups I visit, and the junior high students in my rap sessions.

kmadsen: It seems to me that we live in a society in which people go out of their way to not offend people or make them feel bad for the bad choices they have made in their lives. How is it possible to write a book on morality (like no sex before marriage) and not take a stand on what is "right" and what is "wrong"? I can see all kinds of people complaining about such a book being "judgmental." How do you respond to such?

Sandy: I know exactly what you mean and I think that's why it is so important that each family talk about their own values with their kids. We have to stand for something or we stand for nothing. I really believe that.

MODERATOR: Have you written other books along these same lines?

Sandy: I'm always writing something! I've finished my feelings book HOW WOULD YOU FEEL...WHAT WOULD YOU DO? and a coping book WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN, WHAT DO YOU DO? And I'm working on a collection of brief biographical sketches called DARE TO SUCCEED (about people who have overcome great obstacles in their lives to attain their dreams). I've also completed a novel IN THE BEGINNING (for ages 7-10) and a young adult novel LETTERS FROM CAMP.

MODERATOR: What is IN THE BEGINNING ABOUT?

Sandy: IN THE BEGINNING is about a young girl who always feels like an "outsider" who never seems to fit in anywhere, but she finds that she is not the only one who feels this way and ends up forming her own club with other "outsiders." I think it's really important for kids to realize that they're not alone out there and there's lots of people who have traveled the same road with the same fears and insecurities.

MODERATOR: And does LETTERS FROM CAMP have a similar theme?

Sandy: LETTERS FROM CAMP is about feelings, particularly anger, and how Leslie and her four cabin mates all deal with their anger in different ways. As Leslie and her friends unite to help another friend with her problems, they begin to see their own problems from a new perspective and each of them finds an inner strength she never knew she had. And, in the end, they learn some valuable lessons about life and pain--and survival.

MODERATOR: Do all your books tend to have a common thread running through them?

Sandy: I think my common theme for all my books is that one's perception is one's reality and as one's perception of himself and his world change, so do his sense of self. In short, our reality is really internal rather than external.

MODERATOR: And that's a major life lesson for sure! Sandy, I know that you have also written stories for the children's magazines: My Friend, Pockets, and Touch. Do you tend to use the same kinds of themes in your stories that you use in your books?

Sandy: I would say pretty much so. What I am trying to do in everything I write is give young people issues to THINK about and TALK about. I want them to know that they are not alone out there and hopefully they can identify with some of my characters and see how they manage to survive and find their way.

Shannon Bee: That's something [feeling like outsiders] a lot of young people deal with. Do you find that the youth you have contact with often feel that?

Sandy: Absolutely! I would say, at some time in their lives, the MAJORITY of kids feels this way.

Paige: Do you write from a religious point of view, or is your message generic---about honesty, kindness, caring, etc.

Sandy: I am definitely a strong Christian, but I write from a generic point of view because I believe values are important for everyone, no matter what their religion or lack of religion.

Maudy: Can you give a general list of the values you feel are the most important to write about?

Sandy: Things like honesty, integrity, compassion, etc. Sometimes in my stories I write about negative values like cheating to emphasize a particular message. The opinion polls keep telling us that the majority of our young people see nothing wrong with cheating if it will get them what they want in life. I have a hunch that TV and movies have a big influence here.

Blue Phantom: In another interview, I mentioned some books that were somewhat useless, in my opinion, because they didn't support any moral standards . The person speaking at the interview said that stories that had a moral were obsolete and publishers were shying away from them. Do you ever find you have to use a little sixties approach by writing it between the lines, so to speak? Do you find most of your market is with the religious groups, or have you had success with the secular side?

Sandy: So far all my magazine stories have been for religious magazines, but I think my books have a more generic appeal. Publishers I notice do tend to shy away from books with strong ethical bases (unless they are religious publications) which I think is a sad commentary on our society.

bernie: What about respect for adults and each other? I see quite a lot of disrespect in classes I teach and at my kids' school.

Sandy: Respect is something else I care very strongly about. Kids and adults these days seem to love "putting each other down." In my Sunday school class, we have a rule that no one can put anyone else down.

Shannon Bee: I've read two trains of thought on young children's books and suggesting moral issues. Do you ever use animals in your stories? Some say don't. Others think it's okay. What do you think?

Sandy: I know most publishers don't want stories with animals, but kids love animals and often animals can get a message across that human characters might not be able to.

Shannon Bee: Have you every written a strictly religious children's book? And if so, are they as easy to market?

Sandy: I've been thinking of writing one about a young girl as she thinks her way through her confirmation classes and begins to really see what her spiritual beliefs are all about. So far I haven't done anything with it. There are actually quite a number of religious publishers out there, so there is definitely a market for something "religious."

Jen Falcon: Do you mainly write for girls or boys? Is it harder as a woman to connect with boys?

Sandy: I tend to write for girls just because I have worked with more girls than boys and some publications such as Guide prefer that you write same-sex stories because they feel they are more credible.

MODERATOR: I know you've said that you still consider yourself a "beginner." Why is that? And what are some of the things you have learned that you feel may help other writers just starting out?

Sandy: Since I am definitely still "finding my way," I would be happy to do that. One thing I've learned is to "diversify" and "experiment."

MODERATOR: When you say, "diversify" and "experiment," what exactly do you mean?

Sandy: All I mean by that is to try your hand at lots of different things before deciding on one particular area of concentration. Try nonfiction as well as fiction. Write for different age groups. Experiment with different genres. Just try lots of different things because you may find something you love which you might have missed had you not experimented a bit.

MODERATOR: What about organization? How important is this?

Sandy: I think it's very important to be organized and I personally happen to be a "list person." I not only have a folder for each manuscript with summary sheets for publishers, dates, responses, etc., but I also keep a "To Do" list for each week, which I purposely keep short, so that I have a feeling of accomplishment when I finish everything on it. Then I even have a "To Hear About List" with names of publishers I have sent material to. I highlight my rejections in orange and my acceptances in yellow and then can see at a glance that my world is not totally orange. This is very good for the morale plus it gives me a quick overview as to which publishers seem to be most receptive to my material.

Jen Falcon: How many manuscripts do you have "out" currently?

Sandy: I usually send the same ms. to three publishers and I have about ten different mss. (counting stories), so that's about 30 mss. I have floating around out there.

MODERATOR: How do you decide where to send which manuscript?

Sandy: I've learned (sometimes the hard way) to do my homework. I study my CHILDREN'S BOOK MARKET and my CHILDREN'S MAGAZINE MARKET very carefully and send for writer's guidelines before submitting. This can save both the publisher and me a lot of wasted time and expense.

MODERATOR: In spite of "doing your homework," do you still get your share of rejection slips?

Sandy: I certainly do. Rejections are never easy, but I've got to say that some of my "rejections" have been quite wonderful. I had one editor write me a personal note, telling me how much she loved my story but that the editor who had the final say did not agree with her, so it was rejected. Knowing how busy editors are, I really appreciated the time she took to write this note. Support is always most welcome from wherever it comes.

catmaw: What is your "rejection" to "acceptance" ratio?

Sandy: I just knew someone was going to ask that! I would have to guess probably 2 out of 4 stories get accepted and books are a whole different ball game (I would hate to have to even give an estimate there).

MODERATOR: Do you have any special advice for dealing with those rejection slips?

Sandy: I think the best advice is just to "keep your material circulating." As soon as one of my manuscripts comes home, it gets spruced up with a new cover letter and gets sent right back out to the next publisher on the list.

joyous: After sending the same ms. to three publishers, and if they all send rejection notices, do you then revise more, or put the ms. away for a while (or forever)?

Sandy: Actually I do both. Sometimes when I feel a manuscript is really good (at least to me) I just send it right back out, but when an editor gives me constructive criticism and offers suggestions, then I take these very much to heart and restudy my ms. very carefully.

MODERATOR: If you were beginning again, is there anything you would do differently?

Sandy: I think if I were beginning again, I would join a writer's organization such as SCBWI much sooner than I did. See their web site at http://www.scbwi.org. The local chapters give you a great deal of support, answer voluminous numbers of questions, let you know about conferences and contests, and, in short, treat you like a real writer.

MODERATOR: What else do you think has helped you?

Sandy: Along these same lines, I would also recommend taking a class or a correspondence course to help you keep your creative juices flowing and strengthen your self-discipline. I took both the basic ICL writing course and the advanced ICL course, and both my instructors seemed to know instinctively just how to balance their criticism and praise. I have completed both courses now, but I still hear certain phrases echoing through my head whenever I sit down at my computer: "Show, don't tell. Do you have too much narrative and not enough action? You need more conflict! Keep the problems coming! Does the dialogue sound real?" I think you get the idea!

MODERATOR: Yes, I do! Anything else besides the classes you want to mention?

Sandy: I don't want to sound like a ICL commercial, but I think their resource materials are wonderful. Some are even available to non-students, like publications such as the CHILDREN'S WRITER newsletter and CHILDREN'S WRITER GUIDE TO 2000. Then for their students they also have publications such as their two market guides (magazine and book) and SUCCESS STORIES, THE FAVORITES, BEST OF THE CHILDREN'S MARKET, and FROM INSPIRATION TO PUBLICATION which help you "get the feel" of what does and doesn't work. When the pros tell you to READ, READ, READ, that is great advice; especially read the award-winning books.

MODERATOR: Is there anything else you can think of that has helped you?

Sandy: Just like with any profession, I think it's important to stay "in the loop" or in my case, "get" in the loop. You can do this by reading the various newsletters that SCBWI and ICL publish and also by subscribing to publications such as ONCE UPON A TIME. All these publications keep you updated on what's happening in the publishing world and I've learned that it's very important to stay connected and keep on top of what's happening out there because a lot is happening.

MODERATOR: Is there anything you weren't prepared for?

Sandy: Something that took me totally by surprise is that once your book is published, you are not even half there. No one cares about your book as much as you and, unless you are a "big-name" writer which obviously I am not, it is up to me to get out there and promote my book.

MODERATOR: What if a writer tends to be somewhat shy and not a "born promoter"?

Sandy: You just described ME. I've learned, however, that I can't afford to be shy. When I found that my books weren't displayed in the "local author" section of our Barnes and Noble store, I wrote the manager a note, asking if he could move my books to this section. I got back a note from their community relations manager asking me if I would like to have a "book event" for my books in September when the kids are returning to school. After I stopped dancing on top of my computer, I wrote back that I thought that was a terrific idea and that I would be glad to do whatever I could to help.

MODERATOR: It sounds like we're talking about "name recognition" here and how to get more exposure.

Sandy: You're right. And another great way to get additional exposure for you and your writing is through your local newsletters. I've got an article coming out in our school district's October newsletter and I had an article in the Character Education Center's VALUES IN ACTION! June newsletter. Being writers, that means we're pretty creative beings, so we should look around for some innovative ways to get our material in print.

MODERATOR: There's always the question of time. How do you find enough time to write?

Sandy: Something I've noticed since I've begun to take my writing seriously is that there is no "down" time when you are a writer. Everything is grist for the mill, as they say (I hope I got that expression right). I find I'm always thinking of ideas: whether I'm stopped at a stoplight or doing dishes or strapped into the dentist's chair. And, of course, when the ferrets get loose or when one of the dogs falls into the pool, those events are just icing on the cake.

MODERATOR: Absolutely! Do you feel that you can now begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel and that your greatest hurdles are behind you?

Sandy: Like most things in life, writing is a process and you never stop learning. Hopefully, I will eventually reach my goal and attain my objectives, but, in the meantime, I'm having a great time just enjoying the trip!

MODERATOR: As we wind down, do you want to say anything about your experiences with other writers? Do you feel they have been supportive for the most part?

Sandy: I have found writers to be exceptionally nice people. When I used my SCBWI list of reviewers to see who might be interested in reviewing my books, all the reviewers (also writers themselves) not only responded, but many responded with personal notes. In what other business would you ever get a 100% response back?

MODERATOR: Anything else you want to add?

Sandy: What I've found is that writers tend to be very supportive of each other. It's almost like a sisterhood (I don't mean to exclude any guys out there) where one writer's success is applauded by all of us. I don't think I can think of any other profession where this happens to the degree it happens for us. I think we are most fortunate to belong to this wonderful fraternity.

MODERATOR: Sandy, there's time for one or two last comments . . .

Sandy: I just have two final comments. One, I think it is important that we share whatever we have learned with each other because, in the long haul, it benefits everyone--especially our readers. And my last comment is that I think it's important to keep our sense of humor intact because there are going to be plenty of hard times and rough spots while we make our way along this most interesting but unpredictable path we have chosen.

MODERATOR: I'm sorry to have to interrupt here, but we're out of time. Thank you so much, Sandy, for coming and sharing your inspiring ideas with us tonight. I know you've given us a lot to think about as we sit down to write!

Sandy: Thank you for inviting me and I want to WISH EVERYONE THE BEST IN THEIR WRITING CAREERS!

MODERATOR: Do plan to join us back here again in two weeks on September 14 to hear Elaine Marie Alphin talk about "Creating Characters." Elaine has published 14 books and 200 magazine pieces for readers from preschoolers to teens. Her book, Colorful Characters, has just been released by Writer's Digest Books. Elaine will talk about finding characters through observation and memory, including special characters like animals and aliens. Come and discover how to allow your characters to live and breathe and grow in your story or book! And now, good night, everyone!

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