Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: Welcome to "The Triple Crown of Success" with author Nancy I. Sanders. Nancy is going to share with us about insights into building a successful writing career. Welcome, Nancy -- I am delighted you're here.

Nancy: Good morning, Jan! I'm finally here, joining in from sunny southern CA. I'm excited to join all of you now--it's going to be a fantastic three days! Thanks for having me on board.

Jan: Your new writing book is very cool, Nancy. How did that come about?

Nancy: Hi Jan, I guess you could say that it was a writer's dream come true. I have so many writers who e-mail me all day long with their questions about writing. Many of these writers are from my critique groups or from my local SCBWI region. Rather than just ignore their questions, I often take time to answer them personally and then use that information to post informative tidbits on my blog about the working life of a career writer.

Nancy: One day, a publisher contacted me out of the blue, and said she had been reading my blog. When I picked myself up off the floor and got over this initial surprise, she offered me a book contract for material based on my blog! That's how my book YES! YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO WRITE CHILDREN'S BOOKS, GET THEM PUBLISHED, AND BUILD A SUCCESSFUL WRITING CAREER was born. I've already signed contracts for the next 3 books in the series, too, and am just starting to prepare to write the second book: YES! YOU CAN LEARN HOW TO WRITE BEGINNING READERS AND CHAPTER BOOKS. It's due in March, 2010.

Jan: I know you're a big champion of goal setting and motivation -- can you tell us a bit about that?

Nancy: It's so easy as writers to squander our time and energy and focus away on our computer and never move forward in a positive way to build a successful writing career.

Nancy: How can we change this pattern of negativity? Set goals.

Nancy: Each day, I sit down and write down daily goals to accomplish in my writing. When life has been at its busiest, my goals included things like:
1. Plan the next scene in my head for my novel while I'm waiting for my son at physical therapy
2. Sit down and type out that scene as much as possible for 15 minutes during my lunch break
3. Take kids on a walk and brainstorm together a list of insects we could find in our area for my new idea of an alphabet book on bugs. Look under rocks and leaves for even more bugs to add to our list.

Nancy: Now that my kids are grown and gone, I have long hours in my day that can also get filled up quickly. For instance, these 3 days I'm here with you all at the Writers Retreat.

Nancy: So yesterday, my goals were more simple than usual:
1. Host message boards
2. Brainstorm ideas for the next section of the manuscript for my current deadline

Nancy: Yesterday, I accomplished my daily goals. Today my goals are slightly different:
1. Host message boards
2. Write the next section of my manuscript.

Nancy: So, I know that in between times on this board today, I'm going to focus on accomplishing that goal of writing the next section of my manuscript that I brainstormed last night.

Nancy: Each day, I try to set at least one realistic and practical goal that I can accomplish to move me one step closer to my long-term goals as a writer.

Yaya: For journaling, I have found a way around letting my sub-conscious mind know what is going on. I write letters and keep them to reference or just enjoy at a later date. However, the filing is so overwhelming that I am having trouble climbing the mountains that need to be climbed. Any shortcuts that you've found?

Nancy: I like to create a special notebook or pocket folder for each book project I start and then I file all my journaling in there for that project. It makes for a fun journey after the book is published to go back and reread all my thoughts along the way.

Cat: There was one author, I forget who, in the "From Inspiration to Publication" ICL book I got at the beginning of my class, that would create a manuscript on different coloured index cards, and she could get an idea on the length of her chapters by the amount of index cards she had filed on a certain subject. I kinda like that idea, except I don't like index cards. What alternative filing system do you recommend?

Nancy: Here's the filing system I currently use, which I talk about in my book: When I start a new manuscript, especially a book-length manuscript such as a picture book or longer, I get a POCKET FOLDER. (Although I just created a folder like this when I planned on writing a rebus to submit to Highlights.) These are expandable folders that hold a bunch of file folders. Then I put about 8-10 file folders in there. I label them as follows:

Nancy: Submission Guidelines: I print out the submission guidelines of my target publisher and put in here.

Nancy: Cover Letter: I type out a cover letter, often before I write the manuscript, and file it in here for when I'm ready to submit the manuscript. Of course, I might have to tweak it later but it's done. Whew.

Nancy: Samples: I type out samples of articles or text from books I'm trying to write mine like from the publisher I'm targeting. This helps me follow a successful format.

Nancy: Outline: I keep the outline for my project in here.

Nancy: Ideas: I keep brainstorming ideas here in one place.

Nancy: Manuscript: I keep versions of my working manuscript in here. If my manuscript is a novel, I create a separate file folder for each chapter.

Nancy: Submission: I print out my actual submission and put it in here.

Nancy: I add to my folders as I go and create new ones as new things come up such as potential TITLES, sample VOICE, RESEARCH, etc. I was recently looking over my shelves and for a book I wrote that took an entire year to write, I have over 6-feet of shelf space of all my notes, etc in pocket folders. That was a very intense book to write and is nonfiction for kids. It will be out in January and is AMERICA'S BLACK FOUNDERS. Most of my other books such as picture books only need one file folder of notes, etc.

Cat: Do you have an actual filing cabinet, or do you stash your files in drawers?

Nancy: Actually, POCKET FOLDERS can kind of stand up on their own because they expand to 3-5 inches wide, depending on which size you're using. So I have the current one I'm working on usually just sitting on the floor next to my desk as I write. Others, I place in file cabinets. Others, I just have side by side on bookshelves where they're handy to pull out and use. Aah, the issue of occupied shelf space! A book lover's constant "problem." We can never have too many books, or as writers, too many pocket folders of our various manuscripts in progress.

Jan: I appreciate that you're a champion of each writing finding her/his own way in this publishing journey. Too many times we have such a narrow idea of what it means to be a writer, what we consider okay as a publication credit.

Nancy: So many writers try to be like other writers where we really should only try to be like who we are designed to be. Each of us has areas in writing that we feel we're WEAK at, but actually, there is a publisher and a genre that NEEDS writers with your exact weaknesses because those are their specific strengths they use. Does this sound confusing? It's kind of like this: Do you waste precious time where you wish you were working on your novel but instead you spend two hours each day reading other writer's blogs? Land an assignment to write updates on writer's blogs for a publisher who wants to build an online presence about the writing community. In other words, turn your weakness into cash and maximize on what you're already good at being weak at...Smile.

Nancy: It's hard to believe, but there are tons of opportunities for beginning writers to get a book published. You just have to learn to think outside the box.

Nancy: For instance, let's talk food. If you want to be a professional cook, you don't just have to be a head chef in a gourmet restaurant. My former neighbor was a cook at a local golf course. There are also guys who own their own hot dog stand. Or gals who create their own line of cookies.

Nancy: It's the same with books. Most of us as writers think the only books out there are picture books or novels.

Nancy: There are tons of other book markets out there for children's writers! And publishers are looking for authors to write them! Publishers need puzzle books, games books, crafts books, science fair books, books for teachers, books for activities to use in Sunday School, cook books, books purchased mainly by school libraries such as about careers or nature or holidays around the world, retold Bible story books, beginning reader books, historical activity books, etc.

Nancy: Most of these publishers are used to working with beginning writers, too, and have author packets that help you learn the ropes as you write for them.

Nancy: So how do you find these opportunities? One way is through networking like you're doing here. Another way is to visit your local school library and see which books are on their shelves or go to your local teacher supply store and see which books they carry or visit your local church and see which books their teachers use. Another way is to actually read through great market guides such as BOOK MARKETS FOR CHILDREN'S WRITERS and the CHILDREN'S WRITER'S AND ILLUSTRATORS MARKET GUIDE. Only, don't just read through them. Look each one up on the web, one at a time. Look for one that takes queries and works with first time authors. Then study their product line or current book catalog. Look for a book outside the box such as these that you think, "Hmmm. I just might be able to write one of those!" Then send them a query and ask them if they'd be interested in getting a proposal for an idea or two that you describe that could fit into their catalog.

Nancy: Even as a beginning writer, I landed contracts to write books that I'd never written stuff like before. I just gave it a try. Sure, there were lots of revisions, but revisions are part of a writer's life just like weeding is part of a gardener's life.

Nancy: It's actually quite exciting how many opportunities there are for beginning writers. We just have to step back from our normal way of thinking about writing picture books or novels and look for other kinds of writing that we can do while we're learning how to write picture books and novels.

Okami: In the last two years I've realized some of my stories and characters might work as beginning readers and chapter books. But the word restrictions and simplistic sentence structure just frustrate me, it just does, and no amount of "Simple is God" mentality will change that.

Nancy: Here's an exercise to help you get closer to writing for beginning readers. Do you have a child in kindergarten or first grade? If you do, sit down with her and ask her to read a book aloud to you. (If you don't, grab a niece of nephew or even a neighbor's kid. Or go to the library and find a mom who will be willing to let you borrow their child and sit together with them. Explain that you're a writer--most will be eager to help.) As this young child reads aloud to you, you'll see instantly why beginning readers need short sentences and simple words. That's all they can handle! For help, get the book, CHILDREN'S WRITER'S WORD BOOK. It lists which words kids are learning in which grades from K-6 and is a must-have for writing beginning readers and chapter books.

Yaya: I was just curious whether you set yourself a basic for each day. In other words, do you aspire to a certain number of words or a set amount of time you will write? Or are you more of the I'll write when I feel inspired type of writer?

Nancy: When I want to write as my "hobby" which I frequently do, I'll just sit down and write whatever I feel like it. I'm writing a picture book right now that I consider "hobby" writing 'cause I allow myself just to work on it when I feel inspired. But when I want to write as my "career," I actually post a work schedule that I follow just as if I had a job working at my local restaurant. I show up when my calendar says to show up, just as if I had to get to my job at the restaurant. For instance, right now I'm writing a book that I've hit the doldrums for. (I won't tell what it is in case one of my publishers is listening in. Smile.) I don't wanna work on it any more! I've been writing for my deadline for over a month now and my deadline is looming closer and closer!!! But will I sit down and work on it again? Of course I will. It's my job! I signed the book contract several months ago and now I'm expected to deliver it. Whether I feel like it or not.

Nancy: Many of us struggle as writers to actually find time to sit down to write. However, there are so many ways we can be "working" as a writer all throughout our day so that when we actually can sit down to type, we have material instantly flowing from our fingers to our keyboard. For instance, if you want to get an idea for a brand new picture book, first you can print out a list of current picture books that a certain publisher published this year.

Nancy: Then you can carry this list around with you. If you have little children, you can play a game where you try to guess what topics the publisher would like to publish next, based on this list. You can say: This publisher published 3 picture books about animals last year: one about bears, one about giraffes, and one about lions. What animal should they publish a book about next? Then write down the ideas your children suggest. (Or writer's group. Or friends.) To help you all brainstorm ideas, browse through a book about animals together.

Nancy: All through the day, you can be doing little exercises like this while you're busy with family and friends that can help you keep moving forward until the next time you can sit down and type.

Okami: What I just don't understand is that even though you sign the contract, and you NEED to deliver a book or story manuscript by X date, what if what you came up with by deadline just isn't the best you can do, even though you slugged away at the keyboard relentlessly, or you're stuck in "Could be better" limbo.

Nancy: Okay, let me ask you a question...is there a common every day task that you can't stand doing but you do it anyway 'cause it just has to get done? For instance:
Feed the cat. (My cat Humphrey loves tuna and I'm a vegetarian.)
Change diapers. (Thankfully, that's a piece of the past.)
Scrub a toilet. (Oh, that never goes away, does it.)

Nancy: Since I'm writing for personal fulfillment for my other manuscript, sometimes for the manuscript I've signed a contract for to earn income, it ranks right there with opening a can of tuna fish. But hey, it pays the bills and I'd rather be writing instead of cleaning toilets for a cleaning service, so I give myself rewards for accomplishing daily and weekly writing goals even when I'm not that interested in the project. Does that make sense? Self-motivation is a huge ingredient of a career writer's day. If you're simply not a self-motivated person, there are things you can do to help yourself still build a successful writing career.

Nancy: For instance, you can get a co-author to help write the parts you don't want to write. You can join a writing group that helps keep you accountable to meet your deadline. You can give yourself AWESOME rewards for each little step you take.

Yaya: Have you stayed with the same publisher as you write each of your books or, do you prefer to shop around and find the publisher who will give you the best deal on each individual book?

Nancy: To answer your question, I've written books with a variety of book publishers both large houses such as Scholastic and smaller houses as well. When I am going after the goal to earn income (I'm always working toward 3 separate goals with 3 different manuscripts) I send out queries to different publishers who accept queries.

Nancy: First I choose a publisher who interests me and target them. Then I study their website. Then I look at their current list of book titles. Then I brainstorm potential topics that could fit into their line of books and then I send them a query and pitch an idea for that new topic. I ask them if they'd be interested in receiving a proposal for a book about my new idea. If they get back to me and express interest in receiving a proposal on that topic, then I take 1-3 months to prepare a formal proposal for them. I try to land a contract before I write that book.

Nancy: Because books take so long to write and get published (from 1-3 years) I like to work with all sorts of different publishers at the same time. Right now I have 5 book deadline with 5 book contracts with 5 completely different publishers. The dates of the deadlines are all scheduled out over the upcoming year. That way while one publisher is busy preparing one book for printing, I'm working with a different publisher to write the next book, etc. It's a more efficient way to earn a steady income.

ArborVitae: I hope to eventually (years down the road, maybe) make writing my main career. What small steps should I start doing now to achieve this goal? (So that I don't just go crazy and make all these wild changes in my life all at once to make writing my main "job"...) What can I do little by little?

Nancy: In my book, I explain the little steps that you can be taking all along the way to really put in place the essential building blocks you need to start a successful writing career. For instance, here are some of these tips: 1. You'll be surprised at how far you can go and how much you can accomplish if you just believe that you can. 2. Visit your local bookstore and explore the children's section. Make a list of the different kinds of books on the shelves. Picture books and novels are there of course. But there are also puzzle books, educational books, craft books, cookbooks, activity books, and more. Each of those publishers needs a different writer to write each different book. Perhaps the next writer could be you! 3. Each time you write for longer perids of time than you originally planned each week, give yourself a small reward for a job well done.

Jan: Can you describe the editorial process books might go through after acceptance?

Nancy: Of course, there are little differences here in there between how each publishing house works. And then there are different things that are done depending on what genre you're writing for. I have a new book coming out in January, 2010 with Chicago Review Press called AMERICA'S BLACK FOUNDERS. Here's a little bit about the editorial scope that went into that:

Nancy: Publisher Cynthia Sherry was the acquisitions editor for that one. First I pitched the idea to her, if I remember correctly, to write a book about African American leaders and founding fathers during the early years of our nation. I have written a couple of other books for Chicago Review Press, so she was already familiar with my writing. She liked the idea and asked for a formal proposal.

Nancy: So I submitted a formal proposal to her which included a Table of Contents, about 10 pages of sample text, a marketing analysis of current books out there on this topic and why I felt a book on this topic would sell well in today's market.

Nancy: Cynthia took the proposal to the committee of editors and different teams such as finance...they asked for some revisions to the proposal as they felt it needed more focus in some areas. Finally, after a couple of revisions, I think it was, they all agreed to accept the proposal and sent me a contract to sign.

Nancy: At that point I was assigned to Jerry Pohlen, my "project editor." I worked with Jerry over the year during the time I was writing the book. I was able to ask him questions that came up while I was working such as regarding working with historical societies and getting permissions to use documents in their collections.

Nancy: At this point, also, for many houses, when I land a book contract to write a book for them, they mail me a house style guide, meaning certain spellings for frequent words and certain grammar usage rules they me to want to follow as I write the book.

Nancy: Once I submitted my completed manuscript for my deadline, Jerry worked with me for a couple of months to really get the manuscript tightened and to clarify some places he felt were unclear. Also, he questioned some of my facts and caught some errors!

Nancy: Sometimes at this point, the manuscript is also sent out to several editors to double check the facts and historic accuracies since it's nonfiction for kids. I'm not sure who they sent it out to, to read, but these fact-checkers send in their questions and then I have to double check my resources and the text.

Nancy: At that point, I think there was another editor named Michelle Schoob who came on board and I started hearing from her as the book was getting ready to go to the printer. Sometimes these copyeditors are working at the publisher, as I think Michelle does, and sometimes with some publishers I get feedback from copyeditors who work freelance from their own home.

Nancy: Michelle sent me a copy of the final galleys which I had to read through very quickly--in a few days I think--and look for typos and last minute errors (no big text changes at this point) in the design etc. For instance, I found where they had duplicated the first page of chapter 5 and put it in for the first page of chapter 6, too.

Nancy: By this point, I'm also working with the marketing editor and the publicist and we're getting ideas together to help market the book, submit it for awards, and have a successful book launch. They're doing lots of work on their end! And my project editor, Jerry, still checks in now and then with an occasional question. I can hardly wait to see the book after all this work! Smile.

BJB: write as a hobby with a goal to enter contests and hopefully somebody be published. Is there any indication of what publishers like? Do they prefer that you are a full-time writer or intend to be a full-time writer? The other question I have is how to identify trends and what editors preferences are. Seeing what is on the bookshelves and magazine racks is not an indication because of the time lag. Currently, I use the ICL boards as fellow writers often have information about a publisher. I also check the specific publishers website to see what they might be looking for. Sometimes, I find them vague. They say we are interested in accepting stories about pirates or knights but don't really give their editorial belief or attitude. Are there any other ways to identify trends and editor's interests in the children's market? The last question I have is whether there is any type of children's genre that is always a good seller, like classics?

Nancy: These are great questions! I'll try to answer each of these as briefly yet with as much helpful info as I can. #1 Is there any indication of what publishers like? Answer: A couple of years ago, I made it my goal to subscribe to the Children's Writer, read each issue, and choose ONE editor from each issue to contact who accepted queries. If I remember correctly, the first issue I read I found a blurb that said Sleeping Bear Press was looking for multicultural alphabet books. So I went to their website, looked up the multicultural books they already published and made a list of them. Then I brainstormed cultures they didn't yet cover. Then I sent them an e-mail query saying I read about their need in the Children's Writer and asking if they would be interested in a proposal for an alphabet book on African American history. They e-mailed back and said yes and I landed the contract to write a book. D IS FOR DRINKING GOURD: AN AFRICAN AMERICAN ALPHABET book was born.

Nancy: After repeating this procedure with several issues of the Children's Writer. I had to stop doing it. I landed so many book contracts, even multiple book deals, that I couldn't keep up with the pace. I'm still in the middle of writing for some of those deals right now!

Nancy: You see, I had been READING my issues of Children's Writer, but not DOING anything about those great editor interview and profiles they include. When I finally started to take action and connect with those editors--one editor who took queries each month--I started landing book contracts galore.

Nancy: #2 Do they prefer that you are a full-time writer or intend to be a full-time writer? Answer: I think that rather than this preference, they DO prefer that you have a commitment to be a PROFESSIONAL writer, meaning learn the techniques of the trade, whether you write full time or not. Also, they're looking for a commitment to help promote the book.

Nancy: #3 Are there any other ways to identify trends and editor's interests in the children's market? Answer: The single most effective way I've found to indicate an editor's interest is to study their book catalog. See which titles they brought out this past year. See if they have series they're publishing. Make lists of these new titles and/or series. Then brainstorm a title that would fit into their product line as the very next book. Pitch an idea for this new book in a short query to them if they accept queries. Try to land a contract to write their next book.

Nancy: #4 is whether there is any type of children's genre that is always a good seller, like classics? Answer: Here's a tip for surviving in today's economy: Parent's might not be able to afford new children's books but teachers (even on their limited budgets) MUST keep purchasing new books for classroom use to keep on top of today's educational trends. Google: State and national standards. Read over the required topics teachers are required to teach for the grade level you're targeting. If you can brainstorm a topic for children that meets one of these requirements, you can have a better chance as publishing a good seller because lots of teachers all across the nation will purchase it including school librarians.

Nancy: It also helps to get involved with your local SCBWI organization. Are you a member of the Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators? They have great local events and critique groups you can join. Networking helps us grow so much as writers!

BJB: There does seem to an attitude in fiction that you don't have to research facts and I think this is not right. I would not want to impart wrong information especially to the age group I write for - chidlren. I recently wrote a time travel story where a fictional robot travels back in time to see how they evolved. Leonardo's Night Robot was used and although scholars are unsure whether many of his designs were actually made as Leonardo drew more than he made and had a reputation for it, the Museum and other sites indicate they felt the robot was probably made for a Duke's party. I included Leonardo's robot as made based on this probable and hope I haven't crossed the line - comments would be appreciated

Nancy: I can understand how people have opinions on both sides of the coin regarding research. A different angle to consider is this: Which publisher are you targeting and what are their requirements for research? I've worked with a large variety of publishers, big and small, both books and magazines, both fiction and nonfiction. Some publishers require an extensive bibliography when you submit your manuscript to them to prove your research...even if that bibliography never goes into your book or magazine. Other publishers don't require anything. This is something you might not discover until you actually land a contract, so I like to cover my bases...if there's anything I'm researching I like to keep a paper trail of sources in a file folder so that I can prove where I got my info quickly if an editor asks.

Nancy: Regarding research for a fiction topic...I am currently working on a child's fiction picture book with a raccoon as the main character. I conducted TONS of research just so I could know my raccoon little guy better and help develop his character and personality and voice better. I went to my local library and borrowed all the books about raccoons they had. I took notes and read through all those books and kept track of my sources. From my research I was reminded that raccoons are nocturnal, are smart, like shiny objects, etc. etc. All these things were used in my picture book to help develop his characteristics and voice and move the plot forward. Would my story be as much fun to read if I hadn't first done some research? I wonder...

Nancy: And I personally don't think you crossed the line by included an actual robot from the past in your fiction book. We find examples of this sort of things all throughout fiction. Of course, HOW you incorporated this aspect into the story is key and you might get feedback on tweaking it or revising it so that it has a better feel within the overall text.

Yaya: How do you keep track of where you have researched?

Nancy: I talk in depth in my book about how I create a paper trail, but here are some of the things I do: 1. I print out each source from the Internet that I use. I double check that it has the date on it and the complete URL (some browsers like Firefox cut this off when they print out. Safari prints the whole thing). I store all the Internet sources for each different topic in their own folder, or for each different chapter.

Nancy: 2. I photocopy any page I use for reference if it's a library book. Plus, I note which library this came from. Plus, I photocopy the cover of the book and the title page with all the copyright info and publisher info.

Nancy: 3. For books I own in my own personal research library, I have developed a code in the front of each book. Each title is on a master list I have on my computer. For instance one book might be AA, the next AB, the next AC and so on.

Nancy: 4. Then on my outline for my manuscript or on a COPY of the manuscript itself, I write down the code and the page number for each fact I use. That way my research resources are right there where the fact is so I don't have to go digging.

Nancy: I've found that this system works well because I'll have editors contact me--even 2 years after the book is published--and need a fact checked IMMEDIATELY, especially if a reader contacts the publisher questioning something. I just pull out my outline or manuscript and there's my 3 resources supporting each fact. (You need to have at least 3 resources, generally, for each fact you're stating.)

Yaya: Okay, how do you do your bibliography?

Nancy: Each publisher prefers its own style guide. Many use the Chicago Manual of Style and many use the MLA. I just use the Chicago system and when I work for a publisher who says they prefer MLA, I tweak it to suit their preferences. In general, consistency is the main objective and getting all the info in there.

Lark: I have written a picture book manuscript with a story line that is very personal to my family, but which I believe will have great currency with other similar families. I am a published children's writer (two books and many articles, but I have not looked for an agent yet), and though I am not always so self-assured, I feel very confident about this manuscript (my excellent critique group backs me up!). Because this is such a personal story, I am especially desirous of a certain style of illustration, and actually, a certain illustrator. I know a top children's book illustrator who is also a close friend of my family. Knowing him as I do, he may very well be happy to illustrate this book. I also think his style would be a perfect match for the story. If my manuscript were accepted by a publisher, could this possibly qualify as one of those rare circumstances (bec/ this illustrator is so highly regarded and I imagine most publishers would be thrilled to represent his work)?

Nancy: There are so many issues to consider here. But I'll try to aim directly for the issue I sense the most--you really want to get your personal story published with a very specific illustrator. So, even though I could answer this question in a lot of ways, I'll focus right now on this answer. Did you know that there are some children's book agents who are specifically looking for author/illustrator teams? I recently added a new tab to my blog all about agents. You can visit it at: http://nancyisanders.wordpress.com/agents/ You'll see that agent Alana Roth at Caren Johnson Literary Agency is looking for author/illustrator teams. When I was exploring various of these agent's sites, I found other agents who want author/illustrator teams, too. Definitely start your search there since this is really your heart's desire. Also, check out the other agents I listed and try to find the others that want a duo as well. So, yes, because of your specific circumstances and knowing that some agents ARE interested in author/illustrator teams, I'd say start by contacting one of these agents as a team. Another agent who looks for author/illustrator teams is Rebecca Sherman at Writer's House. Just be sure to tell them this is a simultaneous submission if you're contacting more than one agent at a time. Rebecca usually answers quite promptly to an e-mail query--within a couple of weeks.

Pippi: I'm a relatively new writer with one publication credit (short story). Eventually I hope to write novels as well. However, I've heard that a resume of publication credits is important to even be considered by a book editor or agent. Is this true? How do you know when you have "enough" publication credits to consider submitting a book manuscript (so that it's taken seriously)?

Nancy: Oh, hip hip hooray with your short story acceptance! That's great news! I recommend to every writer I meet to always be working on 3 projects at the same time. I call this the Triple Crown of Success. Here's what these 3 are:
1. Always be working on one project that you just want to write. (Write for personal fulfillment)
2. Always be working on one project that you're writing for the no-pay/low-pay market. (Write to get published.)
3. Always be working on one project that you're writing under contract so that you're earning income while you write. (Write to earn income.)

Nancy: You can start building your published credits today by writing for the no-pay/low-pay market. Just find a market in your market guide or online or in a local magazine that doesn't pay very much if anything at all, but that does have an editor. These places are hungry for manuscripts and you can get in a pattern of writing for them each week or every several weeks and seeing your work in print over and over and over again. This builds your published credits very quickly, especially during the long months it takes to write a novel.

Okami: I know more than the bare basics, but can't seem to get attention. I know you're an active supporter of writing for the no-pay/low pay markets. I'm kind of torn on the no pay markets as my ICL instructor feels all writers should be paid for the long hours/years we put in. I often think about this quote I heard awhile ago about how "You can't call yourself a writer until your paid," and I think- Easy for you to say! In your time there were WAY more outlets for fiction and editors were more likely to work with you. I forget which writer said that, but he'd be hard pressed to make a first sale nowadays.

Nancy: Over the years, I've found that most writers write for 3 main goals that all the other goals boil down to: We write for personal fulfillment, to get published, and to earn money. I also see a lot of frustration among us writers because we try to use one single manuscript to meet all 3 goals at once.

Nancy: I recommend a different way. In my book I go into a lot of detail about the tremendous benefits of working on 3 separate projects and using 3 separate strategies to meet those 3 separate goals. But here, in a nutshell, I'll try to explain it so you can get a peek at what I'm talking about. Say I write a manuscript about when I was a little girl. Think LITTLE HOUSE IN THE BIG WOODS. (I grew up on a farm in PA.) Now, it took me months and perhaps years to write that book. I wasn't getting published during that time. I wasn't earning income during that time. I was just being very busy writing. So then I try to find a publisher for it. Someone offers me a work-for-hire contract worth $5000 for it. Will I sell it to them? No, 'cause I don't want to sell all my rights away for such a personal story. Someone else offers me $500 for it but I get to keep my rights. Will I sell it to them? No, 'cause it's worth way more that that to me. But nobody offers me the big money with just the right terms. So I'm left holding my manuscript in my hands and feeling very, very frustrated. 'Cause I tried to use that one manuscript to meet all 3 of my goals. Do you see how frustrating this process is?

Nancy: On the other hand, I recommend that when an author has a manuscript near and dear to her heart to go ahead and write that for PERSONAL FULFILLMENT. Take your time with it. Send it to the publisher of your dreams. Wait until someone offers you a dream contract for it with lots of money even if it takes years. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, you can be building your published credits writing about whatever for the no-pay/low-pay market. And as I mentioned elsewhere, not only will your credits grow, but so will your self-confidence as a writer and your experience working with editors. That's way worth more than the money they give you. Plus, if your editor moves up the editorial ladder, as most do at this stage, they'll probably take you with them! I'll never forget the day a publisher I never had worked with called me and offered me 4 book contracts out of the blue. I was totally blown away. I asked the editor on the phone--why are you calling me and offering me these 4 book contracts? She explained that her new managing editor was an editor I'd worked with at a much lower paying venue and that editor had told this new publisher she now worked with to call me and offer me these book contracts. Wow! And in the MEANTIME, you can actually start earning an income as a writer by targeting book publishers and high-paying magazine markets and sending them queries to land contracts or assignments so that you are getting paid while you write. It all works together in a wonderful way to help you actually build your career

ColoradoKate: my first choice of what to do first would be to get a book published, preferably with an agent's guidance. But I'm also intrigued by your triple-crown strategy, because I do love writing short things, too, and because I (obviously) need the self-discipline!

Nancy: Okay, I am very, very impressed! Wow! You've got some great things going on here with the fact that you can say you've actually written 3 novels all the way through. Whew! That's quite an accomplishment and it takes a lot of important qualities to do that. Good for you! Now, regarding how to make that leap to the next level of your career, it might help to really sit down and evaluate 3 separate goals:
1. Writing for personal fulfillment.
2. Writing to get published.
3. Writing to earn income.

Nancy: Print out a blank one month calendar to work with. For goal 2, on Monday through Wed of each week, focus on writing for the no-pay/low-pay market so you can start building up your published credits. This will really help make an agent more interested in you as an author, plus build your self-confidence as a writer and give you experience in writing fresh new material frequently, and working with editors. For goal 3, on Thursday of each week, focus on writing to earn income. Now that you actually have 3 entire novels under your belt, you could try to target publishers who accept queries for novels (or other books that interest you), study their new book catalogs, and brainstorm ideas for new books that would fit into their product line. Each Thursday you could make it your goal to write a query to one or more of these publishers and ask them if they'd be interested in receiving a proposal on 3-5 topics that could fit into their product line. Each query you send out to each different publisher will be entirely different because you'll be listing ideas very specifically aimed to their particular product list. For goal 1, I would put your novel/agent search under there. On Friday of each week, mark on your blank calendar that you are going to work on your novel/agent search.

BJB: Is there any information on this intangible, knowing, intuitive place that we seem to be able to tap into to? I ask this, as I think it might be relevant to honing in on what my target market is and hence related publishers? Any information on this would be appreciated.

Nancy: I don't know if I can adequately answer this, but here's an idea to help you explore these thoughts better...over the years I've heard various editors speak about what they're looking for in a children's book and I've also read various blogs and sites on the same topic. You'll also find that children's book agents are very expressive about the types of books they'd like to represent. Many of these terms that they say, as well as ones we tend to use as writers, tend to be an attempt to vocalize this intuitive, knowing place we each have within us as lovers of books and words. For instance, what exactly does it mean when an editor says, "I prefer literary picture book manuscripts rather than pop culture trends"?

Nancy: And how about the publishing house who has on its submissions guidelines: "Accepts no manuscripts in rhyme" yet publishes the next new rhyming picture book? And this I just heard recently from a NY editor: I am looking for novels with a strong voice, yet "voice" is not something you can actually effectively define. I think all of these people are dealing with that deep intuitive place we have each developed within us from the books we've grown to love and have read over the years. Perhaps on your journey to explore who or what your target age is, make a list of those books you gravitate to. Then try to find publishers who are currently publishing books similar to those favorite books of yours. Look on amazon to see how those target ages are listed and which genre they fall under and that might help you narrow your search to know which your new book manuscripts should also be.

Jan: Now clearly you're open to the market that is near and dear to my heart -- magazines. What advice do you have for better marketing to magazines?

Nancy: I just hosted a writer's mini-retreat at my home where 11 writer friends gathered and we targeted the magazine publisher of our dreams! About half of us write for children and we laughed to find out we all picked the same magazine that we'd always dreamed of getting published in: Highlights.

Nancy: Some of us wrote rebuses and some of us wrote puzzles and some of us wrote nonfiction articles to submit to Highlights. But we just didn't submit blindly.

Nancy: First we gathered current past issues of Highlights and brought them to the mini-retreat. Then we read over the articles similar to the one we wanted to write. For me, it meant reading through about 20 various rebuses Highlights has published over the years.

Nancy: Then, we typed out a sample of an article already published in Highlights like the one we wanted to write. I typed out 2 rebuses. Then we made an outline of the published article. I wrote an outline of one of their rebuses. It introduced the story and problem in the first sentence. Then it had an animal react to the problem. Then it repeated the action, but with a different animal. It repeated the action again with different animals 3 times. Then, it gave a twist to the action and that was the satisfying ending for the rebus.

Nancy: After that exercise, we then created an outline for the new article we wanted to write. After that, we spent time writing the actual manuscript. Then we provided feedback to each other on what we wrote.

Nancy: After the mini-retreat was over and everyone went home, I edited and polished my rebus and then sent it in the mail.

Nancy: It was great fun! If you have local writer friends, you could hold a similar day at your house, too. Work on targeting a magazine together and then submit it. Or, you can just go through these steps on your own.

Nancy: Magazines are fun to write for and the best way to learn how to write for each different one is to read through past issues, type out articles similar to the one you'd like to write, create an outline for it and then create a similar outline for yours. Then write your article, get feedback on it from others, edit it until it shines, and then submit it.

Yaya: Do you have any suggestions for how to do this kind of brainstorming for those of us who live a long way from other writers?

Nancy: If you live that far from folks, it might be worth your while to get a video camera for your computer if you don't have one. (I think they're under $100.) You could then arrange one of these meetings over Skype (it's free) and do this via cyberspace with some of your writer friends from this board. Now, doesn't that sound like fun?

Mgfantasy: You've mentioned contacting editors with proposals before actually writing the manuscript to see if they'd have interest in the project. It sounds logical, but I've also heard that this may not be the best idea for beginning writers because the editors don't know who we are. Do you suggest sending writing samples along with the proposal so the editors can get a sense of your writing?

Nancy: There are numerous publishers who are willing and who want to work with beginning writers. They understand that all writers start somewhere. Just look for publishers who say they work with a good percentage of first time writers in their listings in the market guides. Regarding sending samples with your proposal...in my book, YES! YOU CAN I talk about how there are different types of proposal editors expect to see for different genre. But in general, a PROPOSAL includes a cover letter, a synopsis or outline, and sample text from your proposed manuscript. So you're not just sending in random samples of your writing, but you're sending in sample text of a manuscript you're pitching to them. They'll base whether or not they offer you a contract on that sample text as well as your overall outline of the projected manuscript.

Mgfantasy: How do you deal with the waiting game? I have 5 different stories out on submission to 5 different magazine markets. Back in August, I received my first good news--one of my fantasy stories was accepted for publication. This good news inspired me to write every moment I got--hence the 5 subsequent submissions. However, I've heard nothing on any of them and I feel like my motivation is decreasing because of the lack of response. How do you overcome this and find that motivation again?

Nancy: I explain in detail in my book what you can be doing as a writer each day of the week during the waiting game. For instance, while you're waiting for a publisher to express interest in your submissions (I lump this into the goal of writing for PERSONAL FULFILLMENT when we write a manuscript first and then try to find a publisher for it) you can then focus your energy and writing on getting published in the no-pay/low-pay markets which frequently respond very quickly 'cause they are starving for articles to include in their publications. Also, you can focus your energy and target book publishers and study their product line and then send them a query asking if they'd like to receive a proposal for a topic that would fit into their product line. By focusing your energy and writing on 3 separate goals: personal fulfillment, getting published in the no-pay/low-pay markets, and sending queries out to try to land a book contract so you're getting paid while you write, it keeps your motivation keen and your interest level high. Writing for the no-pay/low-pay market is probably the best way to keep you motivated because these editors LOVE it when you submit to them!

Jan: You're such an encouraging speaker -- I think you could be encouraging on any topic. Let's hear your positive outlook on rejections!

Nancy: Have you gotten many rejections yet? I hope so! Rejections are a wonderful sign that you're an actual factual writer. Rejections are a testimony that you have the guts to go out there, write that query or that manuscript, and submit it. Wahoo!

Nancy: Think about this: If you love to garden, you know that weeds are a natural part of your life. No garden means no weeds, but it also means no possibility of a harvest.

Nancy: If you love to cook, you know that dirty dishes are a natural part of your life. No cooking, or eating out all the time, means no dirty dishes, but it also means no possibility of concocting those favorite recipes.

Nancy: If you love to write, rejections will be a natural part of your life. So often we feel that if we get one rejection, it must be a sign that we're not a good writer. And if we get two or three, well, certainly that must mean that we'll always be a failure as a writer.

Nancy: NOT!

Nancy: Rejections are a normal part of every writer's life. I still get lots and lots of rejections today. But I only need one book contract to sign to keep me busy for several months and earning more income, so if I can land one book contract in the midst of 50 rejections, I'm thrilled! That's why I love to send out queries galore and pitch ideas to different publishers for potential book ideas that fit specifically into each different publisher's product line. I haven't spent 3 years writing that manuscript only to get rejected because they already have another author signed on to write a similar book (that I wouldn't know about even from the rejection letter). I just submitted a query based on a template asking if they'd be interested in a proposal for a potential book idea.

Nancy: Oh sure, I'm writing that other manuscript on a regular basis, but in the meantime, I try to earn income by landing a contract or assignment to write a book or magazine article. And I send out queries for this. And I expect to receive lots of rejections, but I'm just looking for that ONE contract.

Erin: So I'm wondering, should you resubmit rewritten works to the same publishers that rejected them? Is there a certain amount of time you should wait? And lastly, does being rejected a number of times by the same publisher hurt your future chances of them ever accepting your work, even if it is of publishable quality?

Nancy: I have actually resubmitted proposals to publishers and manuscripts to publishers and gotten them published the next time around. Here are 2 stories I want to share:

Nancy: One guy told me that when he first submitted to an agent, she asked for some big revisions to his manuscript. So he gritted his teeth and made the revisions and then resubmitted it. She accepted him and now he's an award-winning client of hers. He confided he thinks agents and editors sometimes just ask for revisions to see if we'll be willing to work with them before they ask us to sign a contract.

Nancy: A friend of mine submitted a manuscript to a well-known children's magazine. She never got a reply. She submitted a second manuscript. An editor responded and offered her a contract for the second manuscript. So she resubmitted her first one to him when she responded back. He immediately accepted her first manuscript, too. A little while later, she got her first manuscript back in the mail from a different editor at the same magazine and she REJECTED it. But it had already been accepted by the other editor, so it was in.

Nancy: So, yes, it is okay to resubmit something. If the publisher doesn't say on their guidelines "No resubmissions" or doesn't give a time frame for a resubmission, I think you can resubmit when you feel you've either given it a thorough going over to improve it or waiting for another opportune moment or just waited three months. Sorry to be so vague on that, but each circumstance can be different.

Lark: My next question is about querying. Should you have an editor's name, or is Dear Editor adequate? When I look in Writer's Market, they list imprints, but no editors. How much research should you do to find the right imprint and the right editor, and how best to go about this research?

Nancy: At first it feels very daunting to try to find an editor's name, but it helps if you just think of it as a 2-step plan instead of just one step.

Nancy: First, look up the publisher in the Writer's Market. I like to make a little chart of potential publishers and editors as I'm looking. I also like to include on my chart columns for the percentage of first time authors they work with, their website, the number of picture books they published last year (or other genre you're targeting) and whether or not they take queries, and if they offer a royalty or work-for-hire contract. Stuff like that. Then all that info's in one handy place. Then I go one step farther and look each of those publishers on my chart up on their very own website. I try to find their submissions guidelines. It's usually under CONTACT US or ABOUT US. I double check to see if they have an editor's name listed there. If there is any conflicting info between the market guide and the website, I go with the website because it's usually more current.

Nancy: If I still can't find an editor's name, I just say, "Dear Editor." When I first contacted the publisher, Sleeping Bear Press, I couldn't find an editor's name so I just wrote "Dear Editor." And the ended up offering me a book contract for D IS FOR DRINKING GOURD: AN AFRICAN AMERICAN ALPHABET. So I know "Dear Editor" can work if you can't find an editor's actual name.

Nancy: If you go to this link on my blog, you can actually download a pdf file of a sample chart I like to use. Have fun! Here's the link: http://nancyisanders.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/virtual-book-tour-yes-you-can-day-7/

BjB: I have a question about royalty contracts and work-for-hire. I have 2 questions: 1. Are these the only types of contracts a writer could be offered? 2. What exactly is the difference?

Nancy: These are the two main book contracts offered. (There can be slight variations, as I'll explain below.) There are various magazine contracts offered such as first rights, all rights, reprint rights or one time rights.

Nancy: A work-for-hire book contract is basically a book contract that you sign giving away your rights to your manuscript completely. Usually, these are paid by a flat fee, but sometimes you can earn royalties on this type of a contract.

Nancy: A royalties contract is one where usually you get to keep the rights to your manuscript. You own it and are allowing the publisher to publish it during the term of the contract. Sometimes they'll just pay you a one time fee for your manuscript, but when they agree to offer you royalties, it means that you get a certain percentage of each book that is sold, say 7%.

Nancy: Royalty checks by most book publishers are sent out twice a year--April 1 and October 1 although you will run across some publishers with a different schedule.

Nancy: Some publishers offer advances against royalties, but many smaller ones don't. If they offer you an advance, they usually pay you half of the advance when you sign the contract and the other half of the advance after you finish writing the manuscript and submit it. Then, your book must sell that many copies of the book to earn the advance they paid you before they pay you anything else. If they didn't give you an advance, you start earning royalties on the first books sold and will see a check about 6 months after the first royalty term is done. There are variances among various publishers regarding all these things and even among different contracts each publisher offers, but this is the basic difference.

Yaya: When you mentioned the book for hire contract, I wondered if that is the type of book that you never, ever get to mention in your portfolio?

Nancy: Regarding work-for-hire contract...these are great contracts to include in your resume! It shows the publishing world that you can meet deadlines and are willing to write what an editor needs. These are huge credentials as a writer. In fact, I know a gal who writes almost all of her books for work-for-hire and makes some pretty nice money at it! She's written over 200 books like this so far and editors can't give her contracts fast enough. She's a gal in my local region of SCBWI. Talk about prolific author! Her motto is that anyone can be an expert at anything and write about it. All it takes is research.

Yaya: May I ask, have you done quite a few of these 'work-for-hire' books?

Nancy: Oooh, now you're making me think back over the years! Hmmm. Let's see. Okay...I give up! I have to peek at my resume to get this right... According to a quick count, I've had about 30 work-for-hire books published of the over 75 books I've written. At first, I wrote mostly work-for-hire but as I started to build up royalty contracts, I averaged about 1-2 work-for-hire contracts a year.

Yaya: Nancy, I see in your book that you tell how to get the contract before ever writing the first word. Is this something you regularly do or do you generally prefer to write something, then throw your hat into the water and hope it doesn't get wet? I know there are some writers who go with the latter and send their babies out to publishers with high hopes, rather than feel the pressure of writing under the guidelines of others.

Nancy: My basic method of writing is called The Triple Crown of Success. In my book, I explain how I am always working on 3 different strategies to meet 3 different goals.
For the goal of personal fulfillment, I'm always working on my "baby" where I send it out to the publisher of my dreams.
For the goal of getting published, I'm constantly writing manuscripts for the no-pay/low-pay markets so I am getting stuff published week after week after glorious week.
For the goal of earning income, I always try to land a contract or an assignment before I write a manuscript so I'm getting paid while I write.
So I regularly each week do all three.

ArborVitae: I was reading that your book will be part of a series. I was wondering if you have any plans for the other books? I'm just curious because the first one sounds really good.

Nancy: Yes, we actually list the titles for the next 3 books in the front of this first book, so we've already given a bunch of thought to them! Here they are: Book 1: Yes! You Can Learn How to Write Children's Books, Get Them Published, and Build a Successful Writing Career (Already released in the summer of 2009 and recently became the Award-winning Finalist of the National Best Books 2009 Awards). Book 2: Yes! You Can Learn How to Write Beginning Readers and Chapter Books, Book 3: Yes! You Can Learn How to Write Middle Grade Fiction, Book 4: Yes! You Can Learn How to Write Children's Nonfiction. Hopefully, there will be one new book out per year.

Mikki: I have a couple of questions: 1) I have finished my first novel, after 1 1/2 years, and sent it off to my first publisher. This was recently, so I haven't heard anything back yet. You've talked about contacting publishers for a proposal for a book. I have always been under the impression that you only query about book proposals for non-fiction books. Do you also do this for novels? 2) When you talk about 'work-for-hire' publishers ( and this may be a really dumb question) how and where do you find them? At the moment, I don't have the slightest idea how to go about this.

Nancy: Let me share a story about what happened to a writer in my local region of SCBWI. (I think I have all this correct--I spoke with her over a year ago and you know how our brains can be sometimes!) Anyhow, here's how I think it all happened...she had written and published one middle grade novel. She had signed with an agent. She got an idea for a series of books. So she wrote down a 4-5 sentence paragraph about her idea. She sent the paragraph to her agent. Yes, I did say PARAGRAPH here. Not proposal. Not formal query. Paragraph. The agent thought the paragraph looked interesting. So he showed it to several editors at big houses. They thought it looked interesting too. So the agent took her paragraph to auction. Yes, I did say paragraph. At the auction, the big houses started bidding on it. The highest bidder offered her a multiple-book contract. Based on that paragraph. Hard to believe, isn't it? But you see, many of my buddies are working writers--even if they're just starting out. And this is the kind of stuff that goes on. It's just not talked about a lot. But I think I've landed every single one of my 75 book contracts before I wrote the book--even as a beginning writer or in a new genre for me.

Nancy: So, to answer your 2 questions more specifically: #1: Do you also do this for a fiction novel? Answer: Yes, I landed a 4-book contract for a series of middle-grade historical fiction novels even though I have never published in this genre before. First I pitched the idea to the new publisher in a query and she said she was interested so I sent her a proposal. I'm now in book 2 of the series.

Nancy: #2: When you talk about 'work-for-hire' publishers ( and this may be a really dumb question) how and where do you find them? Answer: Look in your market guide or on jacketflap.com. If a publisher says they purchase all rights for your manuscript, they are a work-for-hire publisher.

ColoradoKate: So proposals aren't for nonfiction only? Or are there publishers who respond to this approach for fiction, as well? I've been told to make sure that I've finished and revised fiction (novels or chapter books) before querying, but clearly you've been exceptionally successful with pitching ideas for unwritten books. But perhaps we're talking about two different sets of publishers.... Please tell us more!

Nancy: I stumbled upon this when I landed my very first book contract before I ever wrote the book. I was a beginning writer and attended a writer's conference. Someone I chatted with at the conference (but don't know who it was) said when she saw me later at that conference that she signed me up to meet 15 minutes with an editor. I was surprised and not really interested in that publisher but said, "Why not?! So I went to the appointment. I ended up chatting with the editor. She was a work-for-hire publisher and she explained to me that she was looking for authors to write books of Sunday School crafts. She told me what she was looking for.

Nancy: So I went home and even though this didn't interest me much, I wrote some samples for a book like what she wanted, prepared them with a formal proposal, and sent them to her. She offered me the contract and I wrote the book.

Nancy: That's basically been how I've done it ever since (even with publishers I don't meet at conferences). I've done this with fiction, beginning readers, educational books for teachers, novelty books, nonfiction, readers theatre plays, craft books puzzle books, board books, historical fiction middle grade novels, magazine articles for feature fiction stories as well as nonfiction, etc.

Nancy: This is how I land contracts to write books and assignments to write magazine articles/stories.

Nancy: In my book, YES! YOU CAN, however, I share that this is only one strategy of 3 that I'm working on at the same time. In the meantime, I'm busy working on writing complete manuscripts for PERSONAL FULFILLMENT. This guarantees that I'm constantly polishing my writing skills while I'm also sending out pitches and queries. Plus, I'm constantly writing fresh new material for the NO-PAY/LOW-PAY MARKETS which guarantees I'm getting published all the time all throughout the year. This builds my self-confidence as a writer and also builds my writing credits. And my experience working with editors and deadlines.

Nancy: I work on all 3 strategies at once.

Nancy: So yes, you should be working on finishing and revising your fiction novels and chapter books for personal fulfillment, but in the meantime, you can also be trying to pitch ideas and submit queries to land a contract to write one, too, and in the meantime, you can be writing short stories for the no-pay/low-pay market to really hone your writing skills and give you the confidence to land that contract to write that new book.

Nancy: To clarify even more here, I'll pitch a query to ANY publisher that doesn't say somewhere in big letters that they absolutely will not in any way accept a query letter. Of course, as a professional courtesy, I don't send them a query. But if a publisher doesn't even mention queries in their submissions guidelines, I'll go ahead and send them a query. The worst thing that can happen is that they reply and say they don't accept queries, right? This includes picture book publishers, royalty publishers, publishers of middle grade novels and beginning readers, etc. etc.

Nancy: If I send them an e-mail query and don't hear back in 2 or 3 weeks, I count it as a rejection.

Nancy: If I send them a snail mail query, I wait 3 months to hear back from them. Of course, in the mean time, I'm sending out queries to as many other publishers as I can until I land my next actual contract.

Yaya: I see that you really enjoy doing religiously-themed books and stories. Was this something that gave you any particular difficulty in marketing?

Nancy: Actually, no, there hasn't been any difficult marketing this way. You see, when I want to target the Christian market, I just go to Christian writer's conferences and study Sally Stuart's Christian Writers Market Guide where it lists all the publishers in the Christian market along with their contact info and editorial needs. And as I've submitted manuscripts to the general market, I've landed several book contracts when an editor sends me a rejection letter for my manuscript but says, "I see that you write for the Christian market. I was wondering if you'd be interested in writing such-and-such a book for us on a religious theme." I say "Sure!" So it's actually been a benefit as a writer!

Arborvitae: When did you feel like it was the right time for you to become a full-time writer (and not just continue writing as a hobby or on the side of another job)? Did you feel prepared or was it still scary to take the plunge into writing as a profession?

Nancy: My writing career was along a parallel path with my children's ages and stages. I first decided to give writing a try when my second son was born. At that time, I knew nothing about writing. So I went to the library and found THE WRITER'S MARKET GUIDE. I learned so much from that book. During the next 5 years when he was not yet in school, I tried to write for various genre and also to submit. But it was hit and miss. I got tons of rejections. However, once he entered kindergarten and I had several hours every day alone, I made the decision to really focus my time and my energy on writing. That's when I started landing book contracts and writing for deadlines. That's when I took the "jump" into hyperspace, so to speak.

Nancy: Taking writing seriously, I think, is really a matter of taking the TIME to write. I talk about this in my book about what I call building the "Writer's Pyramid." If we want to have a part-time job, we go out and get hired somewhere for 20 hours a week and build our entire schedule around it. If we want to look at writing as a career, we have to block out significant amounts of time in our schedule to write each week. In my book, I help you explore the number of hours that work best for you--from 1 hour a day up to 8 hours a day. Also, instead of just telling you to write, I help define what your focus and writing goals should be for each day so that you can actually start building a career.

Nancy: And Emily, to answer your question about being scared...I'm still scared today! Smile. Writing for deadlines is a scary thing in so many ways. That's why I encourage writers to constantly be also writing for the no pay/low pay market. When we write frequently for markets such as a community magazine or our church newsletter or a freebie children's magazine, we're building self-confidence and stamina as well as our published credits. Those constant, miniature successes give us the guts to get out there and pitch an idea to land a contract to write a book or high-paying article assignment.

Godsartist: Very interested in learning how to leave the regular work world and actually just do writing as a full-time career. What tips can you give me on making the transition and surviving until the regular income comes in? Also, do you support e-publishing as a quick start-up for new authors? My goal is to write young adult christian historical fiction. I appreciate any suggestions you can offer. Thanks!

Nancy: For the past 10 years I have earned between $20,000 to $70,000 per year as a writer. That does not include any other income from speaking engagements or writing-related tasks. That's just from sitting at the computer and writing articles and books. Because of my husband's and my tax bracket, my goal is to earn about $40,000 per year. If I earn more than that, I have to start paying taxes. If I earn about that much, I get to keep it all and we actually get a tax return. Each person will be different, though, according to how your finances are set up.

Nancy: My basic method is two-fold: #1: Use 3 separate strategies to pursue 3 separate goals. I call this the Triple Crown of Success. #2: Focus your time on specific tasks (whether you have 1 hour a day or 8 hours a day to write)

Nancy: Regarding e-publishing, do you mean self-publishing? Or getting things published for small e-publishers? Since I encourage writers to use 3 different strategies to work for 3 different goals, I encourage exploring a variety of options. If you want to self-publish or e-publish a manuscript yourself for PERSONAL FULFILLMENT, I encourage you to do so to really have fun as a writer. Or, if you want to write for an e-publisher that might not pay much but that practically guarantees they'll publish your manuscript, I encourage you to do so to build PUBLISHED credits. I have several self-published books that I wrote and published and give to all my friends and it makes me feel so validated as a writer. And I write for lots of e-things (new word here?) that I don't get paid much for 'cause it builds my published credits working with an editor.

Nancy: But I'm also in the mean time working to try to earn a steady income as a writer and that means I'm sending queries and pitching ideas to new publishers to try to land a contract first before I write that manuscript.

Nancy: If your goal is to write YA Christian novels, it's especially important to try to earn income for writing projects while you're learning the ropes of novel writing, which can take a long time.

Nancy: Start building up published credits writing for the no-pay/low-pay market in an area you're interested in such as community biographies for your local freebie magazine or puzzles in a children's magazine or interviews of teens for a no-pay newsletter for teens. Then as your published credits build, you can start pitching ideas for book manuscripts on those same types of topics that you've been getting published in. That's a great way to start getting your foot in the door even while you're learning about writing novels.

Nancy: Another way to earn income while you're learning the ropes of YA novel writing is to contact nonfiction publishers like Arcadia and land a contract to write a book about your home town. It's not a children's book publisher, but it's a book publisher and if you're interested in historical fiction, it will give you great experience for writing about history and I've heard that each of their books earns about $2000 in royalties over the first couple of years even tho they don't offer an advance.

Nancy: If we want to earn a steady income as a children's writer, it helps to understand that there's not a HUGE income from just one book, as his info showed. (even tho $50K is a big advance)

Nancy: To maintain my steady income each year, I try to land about 3-4 royalty based book contracts and 1-2 work-for-hire book contracts each year. (I do this from querying widely and querying well meaning I really study my target publisher before I send them a query to see if they'd be interested in various book ideas. In my book I really share how I do that.) The royalties give me anywhere from $1000 to $8000 per book each year for a couple of years depending on sales and those add up. Plus, the work-for-hire books give me up front cash of about $3000 per book and they typically pay within 30 days after finishing writing the project.

Nancy: The biggest advance I've ever been paid for a single book is $5000. Some of my smaller publishers don't pay me an advance, but just pay royalties after the book is published. So I try to maintain a balance of advances versus no advances, too, to maintain a steady income each year.

Nancy: Some people can earn the big bucks writing for high-paying magazines, but I don't think many children's magazines pay that well. Magazines for adults like Better Homes and Gardens might. I used to write crafts for their children's section and they paid $50 per craft if I remember correctly, but then they cut that section and made a new craft magazine just for kids. But feature articles, etc. can pay lots more than that.

Nancy: When I first started out, I just mostly got work-for-hire book contracts, but after several years I was able to start landing royalty based contracts as well.

Nancy: It feels like a juggling act is going on all the time to try to maintain a steady income, but that's just part of being a freelance writer.

Nancy: One thing to consider is to write for businesses and earn the really big bucks while you're trying to establish your career as a children's writer. I haven't tried this because I already maintain the level of income I want to earn, but check out this book I read. (I think this is its new title: Secrets of a Freelance WRiter: How to Make $100,000 a Year by Robert W. Bly

Yaya: Puzzle books and Bible stories have been a dream of mine for so long that if I think about it for too long, I'm afraid I may be tempted to be jealous. Fortunately, I have just this minute let my mind go blank, so I am not jealous; just thrilled that you have been able to tap into these markets.

Nancy: Yaya, if you're interested in writing puzzles, start with Highlights. Go to their puzzle submissions page on their website and you'll see that they are especially in need of puzzles for their Puzzlemania books. They even give you samples of what kind of puzzles they like best. They buy all rights, but what a great experience and what a great way to build published credits! Lots of other children's magazines also want puzzles such as Focus on the Family's Clubhouse Jr. And Sterling is a book publisher that publishes great puzzle books. Also, look in the Christian market for publishers such as Standard or Augsburg who do work-for-hire books for topics like this. They might be open to puzzle books, too!

Yaya: Thank you so much, Nancy. Since I was a small child, I have wanted to write and create fun stuff for the educational market. Do you happen to know if this is one way that I could make that happen? Er, that is to say, do these types of writing jobs have that kind of possibility, do you know?

Nancy: The educational market is a great place to write. Check out Evelyn Christensen's site for lots of educational publishers. Plus, ICL's Book Markets for Children's Writers has lots of listings for educational publishers as well.

Yaya: I have an article I've written that was given a high-five by my instructor. Personally, I would like to see it published as part of a series of books for middle-grade and younger. I believe this is a subject that could lead to some real interest in other areas and, as a result, I don't want to send it in as just an article. Do you think that an article of about 1,000 words, with the possibility of others to follow (1,000 to 1,500 words each) could be presented by an unknown and viewed with any degree of seriousness?

Nancy: Many, many topics can be written in different formats. If you want to take this fantastic topic and rework it into a book, go for it! Just study the format of similar books that you'd like yours to be and then expand the info to fit that format and length.

Mikki: taught for several years at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. I taught the History of Musical Theatre, from burlesque to Broadway, and also the History of Blues, Rap and Jazz. My students knew I also was a writer, and they kept telling me I should turn my lectures into a book.Anyway, IF I was to propose a book such as either of these, what educational markets would you suggest I look into?

Nancy: One thing to consider about writing for the educational market is that more and more teachers are trying to incorporate cross-curricular topics into their regular classroom since all these huge cuts are happening due to the economy. (My husband teaches 4th grade in CA public school.) Just last night he was chatting with me about how he's working music into his curriculum since they've changed it.

Nancy: With this in mind, it's great to brainstorm ideas for how you can present your lectures to classroom teachers in a way that they could teach music against the background of their own requirements.

Nancy: For instance, I write Readers Theatre plays for Libraries Unlimited and have written cross-curricular read-aloud plays for Scholastic Teaching Resources. With Readers Theatre as your format, you can teach about ANYTHING and it can be used in the Language Arts program at any level. This could be a fantastic vehicle to package the info in your lectures into a viable resource for high school language arts teachers to buy and get music history back into the classroom.

Nancy: So, check out both of those publishers if this interests you. Plus, for more listings of educational publishers who might be a possibility for you to pitch an idea to, check out Evelyn Christensen's great site on Educational Markets for Children's Writers.

BJB: Hi Nancy, do you have to be a teacher to write for the educational markets?

Nancy: There are basically 2 schools of thought in the educational market:
Some educational publishers only want to work with teachers to write their material.
Other educational publishers have the philosophy that a writer can write for any market because research fills in the gap.

Nancy: I'm not a teacher and I've had lots of success in the educational market. I've even gotten feedback that the publisher likes how I bring my "writing" skills to the manuscript where sometimes the teachers they work with are lacking in this area. Now, I must admit that my husband is a teacher and my sisters are teachers and my brothers-in law are teachers and my son is a teacher. So you might think I'm cheating 'cause I can ask everyone in my family to help me!

Nancy: But I have a friend in my local region of SCBWI who writes TONS of books for the educational market and she's not a teacher and isn't related to teachers and she even says she doesn't like math. But she writes junior high math books sometimes 'cause she says she can be a specialist on anything for 6 weeks while she writes about it.

Nancy: So if you're not a teacher, just look for publishers who don't require you to be a teacher to write for them. Hint: On their submissions guidelines, if they say: We only take submissions from teachers, those aren't the ones and you'll need to keep looking. If they don't say anything about that, then it's a good chance you'd be fine working for them.

Nancy: Now, regarding writing for textbooks, I know some of my writing friends who have had great success writing for the TEXTBOOK market, but that's not a market I've ever written for. But check it out and explore it if it interests you!

BJB: Wow, now my inquring mind would like to know if the Textbook market is part of the Educational Market?

Nancy: There's actually an entire world out there of what I like to call "HIDDEN PUBLISHERS." You won't find them listed in market guides. You won't find them listed on the web in an easy to access list. The best way to find them is just look for their books, look inside their books for contact info, and start trying to connect with their editorial department via phone and e-mail. For instance, grab your kid's text books and start from there. They don't advertise 'cause they don't want millions of submissions of picture book manuscript from authors who don't do their homework and find out they only work on textbooks. But if you're serious about looking into this market, then go ahead and explore!

Jo: I have a special concern. I am a (for the most part) stay at home care giver to my mother and find it hard to concentrate on writing, especially novel lengths stories around caring for her. Do you has any suggestions for me as to how to organize my time, or even find time to write. I must adnit it has come to the point when I do have the time, I have trouble getting motivated because I know I'll be called away just as I get started.

Nancy: To put it in a nutshell, based on that one hour/5 days a week time frame, I recommend focusing 3 hours each week writing and getting published in the no-pay/low-pay market.

Nancy: Then, I recommend spending 1 hour each week writing to earn an income by following these steps over the weeks ahead:
1) Look for children's book or magazine publishers who accept queries
2) Study their product line
3) Pitch them a query to write a brand new manuscript that will fit into their book list or magazine.
4) If they request a proposal or outline, spend that hour each week preparing this to submit. Try to land the contract (or magazine assignment) to write the manuscript

Nancy: Finally, I recommend spending the last hour each week writing for personal fulfillment. Just whatever you want to write. This keeps your writer's heart alive.

Nancy: Now, if it seems impossible to even find one hour each day to write, then learn to look at your world with a writer's heart. During the day, while you're caring for your mother, brainstorm ideas for your next scene in the novel. If your mother can talk, invite her to join your brainstorming sessions and have fun with it. Write down both of your ideas for the scene.

Nancy: If your mother can't talk, but can listen, read aloud to her a novel from the publisher you're targeting to try to learn more about their product line. Take notes while you read of specific parts that are well-written or need work. Watch a movie together and analyze the plot and character development while you watch.

Nancy: Then, break your actual hour of writing each day into 15-minute segments. Since you're working all day long with writing-related ideas, spend 15 minutes writing in the morning before she's awake. Spend 15 minutes writing at night when she's asleep. All you need is 2 other 15-minute segments to grab each day and you'll accomplish your goal of typing one hour each day. All the rest of the day, you can be preparing for that hour. This is also true with young children.

Jan: We know how valuable it can be to join SCBWI -- but do you have any tips for dealing with the expense?

Nancy: I just checked my SCBWI Bulletin and sure enough, they STILL offer as payment $50 and ONE YEAR FREE MEMBERSHIP for an article if you write one and they accept it. They like poetry, too, so that's a nice advantage. I got my membership for free for years that way--just one article a year! Plus, Stephen Mooser just e-mailed me and said NONMEMBERS can submit articles for the Bulletin!

Belle: Miss Nancy, when you're feeling out of it, not in that writing spirit and you just want to throw the entire manuscript in the waste basket, what prompts you to write? To keep going even when you don't want to and you wish you'd never even laid eyes on your work before?

Nancy: Ha ha ha! How did you know I'm in that exact stage for one of my manuscripts right now?! I've been avoiding working on it like the plague. I do a couple of things:

Nancy: Thing #1: I give myself a reward. Last night I went to Staples and bought myself some really cute paper with a big snowman on it for $6.99 for 100 sheets. I'm a softie for really cute paper. BUT I'm not allowed to open the paper and use it until I accomplish my next writing goal on that manuscript I'm avoiding.

Nancy: Thing #2: I schedule myself a mini-retreat. I plan music, indulge in a sweet treat to eat, light a fragrant candle that smells like butterscotch, turn off the phone and the computer, and schedule at least one hour to sit down and reconnect with my manuscript and get back to that place of enthusiasm where I was when I really wanted to work on it in the first place. (I'm probably going to do this tomorrow!)

Nancy: Thing #3: Go have a long walk and lunch with a friend.

BJB: In one of your replies, I think on the types of editing, you indicated submitting a marketing analysis of current books. Do most publishers ask for this? If so, what goes into a marketing analysis?

Nancy: A lot of times publishers I work with like to see a market analysis. Here's how I prepare one: I go to Amazon.com usually and click on the link for ADVANCED book search. Then I google my topic with as many key words as I can think of. For instance, say I want to submit an analysis of bedtime picture books. First I search for "bedtime books" for topics for the young ages. Then I search for "Good night" in the title line. Or I search for "Sleep." I print out lists of books that come up. I might even extend my search to go to the Internet in general and Google similar key words. I maintain a growing list of these titles.

Nancy: Then I usually go to my library's online catalog and search for the same key words. Finally, when I feel my list is pretty comprehensive, I try to order in as many of these titles from my local library system as I can. Or I try to find titles with the SEARCH INSIDE THE BOOK feature on Amazon. Or, I go to each book's publisher's website and locate the titles there 'cause often they'll have peeks at some of the pages or great descriptions of the books not found elsewhere.

Nancy: I then spend some time finding books from my list that will be sort of similar to my projected book so that I can tell my publisher that there is actually enough of an interest out there on this topic that people are purchasing it right now.

Nancy: Then I spend some time finding books from that list that are distinctly different from my projected book so that I can tell my publisher that MY book will fill a gap that these other books aren't or that MY book will offer a fresh new approach to the topic.

Nancy: Then I write a very short summary of all this for the publisher--it usually isn't longer than a couple of paragraphs. I state a few of the most popular titles and how mine will be similar, but I also state a few of the most popular titles and state how mine will be different. The goal of a market analysis is to convince your publisher that the topic is current enough to generate sales, but that your book will fill a need like no other existing book on that topic.

Nancy: It takes some time to do this, but the more you do it, the easier it gets. Plus, it gives you a good feel for the market as well, which is a strong plus as you're writing your manuscript.

Jan: You have such a clear, organized approach to everything -- how about queries? You write a lot of them, do you have tips?

Nancy: I really believe in making our lives as writers easier as much as possible, so I love using templates as much as possible. For instance, a query or a cover letter can seem very daunting. So I usually just use a template and not fuss about that stuff too much. Here's a template from my book that you can use for pitching ideas in a query e-mail to a magazine publisher:

Dear _________ (first name of editor),
I read in (name of magazine or website, etc.) that you are interested in ___________ (type of articles they're looking for). I studied you website and see that you publish ___________ (a feature they publish in their magazine). Would you be interested in receiving a proposal about _________ (3-5 potential topics that would fit in this feature)?

Sincerely,
___________ (your name)
___________ (your contact info)

Nancy: Of course, the beauty of a template is that you can tweak it to add more or less info. For instance, if you do have some published credits, be sure to include those, too! And add if you're a member of SCBWI and/or are currently taking a course here at the ICL or have graduated from it. These carry significant weight to an editor.

Nancy: If you send in an e-mail query and don't hear back in 2-3 weeks, it's probably a rejection. If you send a query snail mail, you'll need to use a different format (type it like a formal business letter with everything aligned left and contact info centered at the top like a letterhead) and the standard wait time is 3 months.

Nancy: In the industry today, many publishers simply do not respond if they're not interested, so if you haven't heard back in those time periods, then it's probably a rejection.

Yaya: I design games, among other things and I wondered if you happened to know how a person would go about marketing a game?

Nancy: Look in the back of the Children's Writers and Illustrators Market Guide and you'll find an entire section of publishers listed who publish games and puzzles. For actual games in a box, the best way to learn more about this market is to check out the producer on the package of the game, and then try to search for them online. Explore and try to find submissions guidelines for their company.

NancyJ: You say to write for No Pay and Low Pay publishers to gain clips. Paying publishers don't look down their noses at a resume and clips that only include No Pay publishers?

Nancy: When I started acquiring writing credits in the no-pay/low-pay market, I started listing them on my resume, such as: Author of over 50 children's puzzles.

Nancy: The publisher didn't ask me WHERE I got those published, they just offered me a contract to write a puzzle book when I pitched the idea to them. Because I'd had so many puzzles published already, they didn't care if it was for the no-pay/low-pay market. They just saw I had experience enough to write a book even though I'd never written a puzzle book before.

Nancy: It's the same with other genre, too. Publishers just want to know you're working with editors and deadlines, etc. Another benefit of writing for the no-pay/low-pay market is that several times, the editors I work with have moved up the ladder and landed nice jobs with bigger publishers. Then they contact me and offer me contracts with the bigger named publisher. Wahoo! They know I'll produce 'cause I've been working with them in the trenches.

Nancy: This can actually happen quite a bit when you actively get published in the no-pay/low-pay market 'cause those editors are trying to move up the ladder just like we writers are.

Cat: Regarding your submissions, do you constantly have submissions being sent to publishers while you are working on other stories and articles? How many submissions do you usually have circulating, and do you recommend writing fiction and non-fiction at or around the same time?

Nancy: Regarding submissions...do you mean submissions of complete manuscripts? I usually don't submit many of those. In my book I explain how when I want to write a manuscript without landing a contract first, I write it for PERSONAL FULFILLMENT. Then, sure, when it's done, I send it out on its round of publishers. But I don't think I've sold a single one of those manuscripts like that.

Nancy: I do sent out lost of queries though. These are queries where I study a publisher's book catalog and brainstorm ideas that would fit into their catalog and then send the editor a query asking if they'd like to see a proposal on any of those ideas. I send these to magazines, too.

Nancy: This is actually a common practice of career writers who write for high-paying magazines for adults, too.

Nancy: So yes, I try to devote a little bit of time each week to sending out queries for potential book contracts or magazine assignments so I can line up deadlines for the year ahead. Right now I have book deadlines lined up back-to-back until the end of Sept 2010. Plus, I just landed 3 magazine assignments for 2010, too, that I can write in between. Plus, I have several no-pay/low-pay assignments lined up for the year ahead, too. So my 2010 is pretty much planned out.

Nancy: Right now I'm starting to contact book publishers with basic 2-3 sentence pitches for 2011 deadlines. I already have one publisher interested in a proposal that will probably take me about 3 months to write (in the middle of my current deadlines).

Nancy: So I'm always thinking ahead.

Nancy: When I started out, I would mostly spend Sept to Dec each year trying to query lots of publishers in hopes of lining up book deadlines through the year ahead. Now, it's kind of more ongoing, especially since some of my contracts are series.

Nancy: To answer your question about writing nonfiction and fiction at the same time...for me personally and I think it's the same for many writers, fiction is very difficult to learn to write. You have to learn how to develop characters, write effective dialog, show don't tell, develop a story arc and write fantastic plot structures. While I'm working on learning all those techniques, I've been getting published writing for other genre such as puzzle books, crafts, nonfiction, etc. Those types of books are ways to 'BREAK INTO' the book market, just like certain columns are easier to break into the magazine market.

Cat: How do you handle your schedule?

Nancy: I use a type of schedule that I call a Writer's Pyramid. Basically, this pyramid is divided into three parts--the wide base represents what I spend 3 days of my week writing for, the middle represents 1 day of writing each week, and the top represents the other day of writing. If I don't have a book contract or high-paying article assignment, I'm spending 3 days out of 5 writing for the no-pay/low-pay market. This guarantees that I'm actually writing new material and getting published frequently.

Nancy: The next day, I spend send out as many queries as possible to try to land a contract to earn income. The final day I spend writing whatever I feel like for personal fulfillment. Now, this changes when I land a book contract so that I'm spending most of my week writing for my deadline to earn income and just a small portion of each week writing for the no-pay/low-pay market to continue getting published frequently. And then another small portion writing for personal fulfillment.

Nancy: Maintaining this balance helps me keep moving steadily forward in my career as well as earn a steady income. Now, regarding how I maintain my actual writing schedule each day, that differs with each different project I have.

Nancy: For instance, when I'm working on my historic middle grade novel series, it takes a tremendous amount of research. I might just do research for several hours each day and then only sit down to actually type for one hour. If I'm writing a picture book, I like to get away from my computer and write it on pen and paper in a comfy chair and THEN take my notes to the computer and type it in.

Nancy: For health reasons such as eye strain, back strain, etc. I rarely sit more than one hour straight at a computer. I vary it with research, typing, brainstorming at the ironing board or doing laundry, typing, making outlines on a pad of paper, etc.

Jan: Thanks for joining us for these three days and thank you, Nancy, for all the encouragement you've given to those with a dream of writing for a living. With all the discouraging stuff we hear, it's nice to listen to the voice of hope for the hard working.

Nancy: You're welcome. I just want everyone to keep in mind that there is an entire world of writers who make either a full or part-time living with their writing. This world isn't talked about much at writer's conferences. It's in essence, kind of a hidden world. But it exists and it's real and it's really available for anyone to tap into who wants to earn money as a writer. No, it's not an easy path. But neither is getting up at 5 am to go to your day job each day. It's work. But because it's what we love to do--write--it's great and very rewarding!

Jan: Now, in parting, I want to mention that all the great stuff Nancy covered in this workshop, she covers in even more detail in her book, so if you're impressed with this transcript -- I am certainly, you'll love the book!