Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Nancy: It's a joy to be here, too!

Jan: I just want to go on record saying that you have THE most gorgeous book cover. They did a fantastic job with D is for Drinking Gourd.

Nancy: Thanks! There's a wonderful story about how that came to be.

Jan: Oh good, storytime children, pass the popcorn!

Nancy: The artist, E.B. Lewis was walking through a mall or somewhere. He spotted this little girl who was beautiful. So he asked her mother if he could use her as a model for a book he was illustrating.She was very hesitant, naturally! She handed him her card and he noticed she was a local lawyer.

Nancy: Well, E.B. has a friend who is also a lawyer, so he asked the mom if she knew his friend. She said yes, so E.B. called his friend right there on his cell phone. He let the mom talk with his friend on the cell phone. The only problem was, his friend told the mom "He's crazy--get far away from him!" Ha ha! So then arrangements were made. And he did a photoshoot with the little girl and the rest is history!

Jan: So, were you thrilled to pieces when you saw the cover? I know there's always some nerves about what cover might look like.

Nancy: Yes! It was the last piece of art to come through. It actually was the 3rd try, I think. The title page was one of the initial covers, but people wanted a more universal theme such as a child on the cover rather than an event such as the Underground RR which is the title page. So when E.B. showed us the picture of the little girl, everyone was thrilled!

Jan: It is a universal cover and so inviting.

Nancy: Thank you! I'll let him know.

Nancy: Yes, the publisher usually spends a lot of time choosing the final cover design. People are people so there are things we're naturally attracted to that a publisher tries to make the cover appeal to the target audience. Everyone loves the picture of a child... That's why they decided to go with that. Rather than an historic event people might not be familiar with.

Jan: Can you tell us the story of how you got the contract for this book. It seems an interesting subject considering how much we hear about how hard it is to write about a different culture.

Nancy: Yes! As with most contracts I land, first I looked for an actual, real live editor to contact. I saw that in the Children's Writer, the publisher was looking for multicultural ABC books at that time. Since I had already written a book about African American history, I went to their website to see if they had an ABC book about African American history. I saw that they had ABC books about other cultures, but not yet African American history. So I sent an e-mail to the publisher and asked if they'd like to see a proposal for an ABC book that would fit in with the style of their other ABC books but about Af Am history. An editor e-mailed back and said yes. So I spent about a month preparing a proposal. For an alphabet book a proposal is pretty low key...just a list of topics for each letter and one sample page.

Jan: So, do you get a lot of publishing leads from the Children's Writer?

Nancy: I get most of my leads from there! I tell everyone about it. It's the best writing newsletter I've ever seen for current market leads with actual editor's names and where they say exactly what they're looking for. In fact, about a year and a half ago, I made it my goal to e-mail one editor from each issue. I started landing so many book contracts, I had to stop doing that!

Jan: That's really cool.

Nancy: I always just send a little query AFTER I study their website. I mention that I read their interview in the Children's Writer. Then I tell them I saw certain titles on their website that interested me. Then I ask if they'd like to see a proposal for a certain topic that fits into those titles. Pretty simple and short.

Nancy: Actually, I've written over 75 published books and I think for every single one of them I've landed the contract BEFORE I write the book. However, I'm always writing books for fun on my own. But I've never sold one single manuscript by trying to submit it to an editor. I've even had 2 agents over the years at various times and they couldn't sell my manuscripts! There's just something that WORKS when I contact the editor with an idea. Even an editor I don't know. And then we work back and forth to get the proposal for the book to match exactly what they'd like to see.

Nancy: Trial and error. Smile. I've learned that even good proposals I've sent out with manuscripts get rejected. If I send the manuscript as a submission. But if I first just send an e-mail query, then the editor says they want a proposal. And then I write a different proposal for each different type of book. Basically, every proposal includes a cover letter, an outline of some sort, and a sample of the manuscript. But for an alphabet book, for instance, it's very different than a chapter book. Of course, I read lots of how to books and study the Writer's Market for how to write proposals and get feedback from my critique groups.

Nancy: I try to limit it to keep it short...I just say what I said earlier... I say I saw their interview in Children's Writer. I tell them I studied their website. I mention a couple of titles of theirs and ask if they'd like to see a proposal for my idea that would fit in. That's it. Just a paragraph or two. Nothing formal because it's an e-mail. Sometimes I don't hear back from an editor. So I just move on...but other times I hear back and they're interested and often a contract comes through.

Nancy: Ah! That's kind of tricky! The Children's Write is good because it will post them. But often they aren't listed in most market guides. One of the best ways to find educational publishers is to look in a local bookstore that sells teacher's books. Just open the books you like and look who the publishers are and then google them. You can also hang out on listserves of writers who write for educational publishers and get leads there. I broke into Scholastic Teaching Resources because I met one of their authors. She recommended me. They mostly want to work with people who have an educational background. My husband is a teacher, so that qualifies me in their minds.

Nancy: Sometimes the proposal is easier because it's all exciting. And then the book takes so long--up to a year or two. And then you feel like you're in the trenches...day after day of writing... But other times, the proposal is VERY hard because you're afraid you won't say exactly what they want you to say to land the sale.

Nancy: A chapter book proposal is more of a standard novel proposal. Cover letter, outline, and three sample chapters.

Jan: How much sample do you send with a picture book proposal?

Nancy: It can vary...There are many different types of picture books. For an easy reader proposal I just sent in, the editor wanted a prototype of dummy of the first few pages... A prototype OR dummy, I meant to say. For NF picture books, a sample page or two will probably be sufficient. For instance, with the ABC book, the proposal only was 1 or 2 sample pages. It's because the research is so intensive, the editor doesn't expect you to do all that research for the proposal. But for a fiction picture book, it just will propably go more from the query stage to a SUMMARY stage. I haven't really sold many fiction PB yet...

Jan: So, as a non-artist...how do you dummy a page like that? Are you just breaking out the text or actually giving illustration suggestions?

Nancy: It would depend on the specific project. Because the easy reader I am proposing has MINIMAL text, I knew the dummy would be mostly white space. So, even though I'm not an artist and am limited to drawing stick figures, I filled up the pages of my dummy with bright colors how I'd like it to appeal to the child. The reason I tried to make the dummy very VISUAL is because editors are people. They'd be bored just seeing a blank page with 2 words on it. Cause I'd be bored seeing that, too. So I drew really, colorful stick figures and made the dummy eye-catching.

Jan: Now, I know that you're working on a historical fiction series right now (yay), but how many out of that 75 were fiction?

Nancy: Okay, now you're making me think! Let me guess that I've written about 20 fiction books for kids. This includes two early chapter book series. And board books. The way I landed the board books was I sent them a sample board book I'd written. Then I mentioned in the cover letter that if they couldn't use that book, I could write something on different topics. This gave the editor the chance to reject my manuscript but say she'd like to see those other topics. Then we ended up with topics she wanted anyhow-- which is what usually makes the sale. For the easy readers, I had already written books for the publisher and wanted to do easy readers so I pitched proposals for them and landed contracts.

Nancy: I had already spent INTENSIVE research on African American history when I wrote my first book on the topic: A Kid's Guide to African American History. I would say 5 years of research. Because first I did the research for the book for a year or more and then I continued to do extensive research because I wanted to specialize in that topic. So when I sat down and wrote Drinking Gourd, my contract was for 3 months. There was no way I could have written it in 3 months if I hadn't done those years of research. That's why I decided to specialize in African American history becauase I had learned so much about it. That I wanted to write more books based on the research I already did. And continue to do!

Jan: Ahhh...which brings us to specializing. You scored D IS FOR DRINKING GOARD because you specialize...but that is really just about extensive research, not university degrees or such.

Nancy: Yes, I told the editor in my initial query that I specialize in writing about African American history. I don't have a university degree in the field, tho, even tho I'd like to do that! But as a children's book writer, I decided to choose it as my topic to specialize in.

Jan: Do you have other specialties?

Nancy: I also specialize in a couple of other topics, too, and when I approach editors about those topics, I mention that as well. I specialize in writing beginning readers, too, and Bible stories. The reason I say that is because I've written 2 series of beginning readers and also over 200 reproducible beginning readers stories for Scholastic Teaching REsources.

Jan: Now, you've done craft books too -- right? SO would you consider that another specialty or more of a fluke?

Nancy: Oh, yes! I do specialize in crafts, too. As for each of my topics I specialize in, I started out knowing nothing about them.

Jan: You're just so special! :-) I find this fascinating actually. I think we get so intimidated by the idea of "specializing"

Nancy: Thanks. Smile. Yes, I've found that editors don't expect you to be a know-it-all, but it tells them that I've done substantial research on these topics. One thing I did when I decided to specialize in African American history was to start keeping a running outline on my computer. This outline is now probably 7 years old. I keep adding to it all the time. Anytime I find out new info I add it to my outline. I initially started the outline by writing fulltime for 3 months on it. Really intensive research. I did this AFTER I decided to specialize in it. Sort of like a plan.r Then the second part of the plan was to create a personal library of reference books on the topic. So I went to local universities and read through all their reference books on the topic. I noted which titles I liked the most and which titles I wanted to get for my own personal library. Then I went home and began ordering them, little by little, one by one, from amazon's used book store online. I get most for about Now I have over 100 KEY books in my home on AFrican American history that I use for my reference sources. Everything's at my fingertips.

Nancy: Actually, it's scary! I'm always afraid that I'm misinterpreting something or coming to the wrong conclusion and will say the wrong thing in my books. I guess that is healthy, though, because it keeps me on my toes as a researcher. But on days like yesterday, when I read a brand new book and discovered over 50 facts I'd never known before about African American history. I was so excited I felt like I'd won a big prize or something! It gets so exciting! And it's even more exciting because then, I get to take UNIVERSITY level topics and introduce them to kids! That's why I love doing research and then presenting the treasures to kids to go WOW, too.

Nancy: This depends on whether I'm doing a personal outline for me to go by or an outline for the publisher in a proposal. For my personal outline, first I chose my topic: African American history. Then I found a KIDS book on the topic. The reason I chose a kids' book to use is because it will list the main events. Then I typed out the framework of my outline from ancient history up to modern history. So there--I had my main outline. I kind of followed the kid's book. It had about 15 sections. so I made my outline about 15 sections. Then I found another kids' general book on the topic and plugged in those main events. Then, one by one, I added in lots of kids' books and their topics into my outline. By then I had about 20 main sections. I didn't number anything inside the main sections. I just used bullets because the number of items changed frequently. Then I advanced to books on specific events or eras within the entire scope. And I added more specifics into each main section. And of course by then I was using primary sources and university reference books to add things to my outline. So now I just add here and there new names and topics to the outline. I always list which source I got the info from, too, on my outline.

Jan: So do you normally start your research into a new subject with a kid's book?

Nancy: Yep! It's the easiest. Right now I'm writing a middle grade novel and a historical NF activity book--both about the American Revolution. So first I visited my local library and rented all the kids books on the topics. I read through them first and get my basic outlines from them. Then I read through really heavy reference books to plug in exact info to that outline made from the kids' books.

Nancy: Oh, I'm so glad that helps! Another thing that really helps is pocket folders.

Jan: Oh, how do you use those?

Nancy: You know that 20 section outline that I have on my computer? Well, I have about 4-feet wide of pocket folders. Each pocket folder is labeled to match the 20 main sections on my outline. I keep the folders next to my desk on a bookshelf. Then, whenever I go to write about that specific topic, all that extra references and websites and news events that aren't in my books are handy

Jan: Well, it does sound like I can use this as an excuse to go to the office supply store. I do so love the office supply store.

Nancy: Oohh--my favorite store in all the world! I have to be organized. otherwise I feel like I'm drowning in a sea of information. I went through an entire box of 100 file folders just this past week since I'm starting on a new project!

Nancy: Welcome to the Book In A Month Club, Robyn! I'm so excited you've joined. Here's how you can know if you are on to a good thing or a bad thing... Ask yourself: Are honeybees a topic that is covered in elementary school? If you don't know, visit your local school. Tell them you're a writer (they'll love you instantly!) Then ask to speak with a teacher or two from different grades who would be the right target age for your book. Ask them if they teach about honeybees to meet their Standards. Teachers are required to teach everything to meet their state and national Standards. And I'll tell you the answer. YES!!! Teachers teach all about honeybees! So you have hit an AWESOME topic idea! Do research to find out exactly which grades teach about honeybees. I think it's K-2. Then you can tell your publisher that you are targeting that it will meet the standards. Now, to find out how it fits into your publisher, make sure they do a book about insects or wildlife or animals. And if they do, then honeybees will be a GREAT addition! Best wishes with your book! Let me know how it goes for you.

Jan: So, you're taking folks through your process of creating a picture book on your blog? How cool is that. Can you tell us your blog url again for the transcript. Folks will want to check that out.

Nancy: www.nancyisanders.wordpress.com

Nancy: Yes, every year for the past few years, my local critique group does the Book In A Month Club. It's zany and crazy fun where we try to write a book from beginning to end in just one month! This year I decided to go global with the club and invite people to follow along each day starting March 1. I'm even inviting people to target the same publisher I am--Sylvan Dell. They do beautiful picture books--some in rhyme, some with animals stuff most publisher shy away from. And tomorrow as a special guest appearance on my blog, I'm interviewing Donna German, the publisher of Sylvan Dell! So it's been an exciting month.

Jan: Oh, that is very cool...we will, of course, all go read that.

Nancy: Smile. That's what makes this club so fun. Writing is such a lonely occupation.

Jan: That sounds like fun...does anyone ever trying any longer forms...or pretty much all picture books?

Nancy: Actually, two years ago I wrote an adult-length NF book. Now that was a challenge! You can write any length you want. But this year I decided to do a picture book because I'm in the middle of 2 book contracts so I invited everyone to join me who wanted to do a picture book, too and I'm doing a step by step instruction.

Nancy: I just like all the fun it is to have everyone join the club. People have helped me along the way and I have fun doing the same.

Nancy: Wow! That is so cool! Good for you! First of all, you want to land your contract before you write the book. If that scares you, just write out a sample section and the outline. I would first contact Scholastic Teaching Resources. They are always looking for actual teachers to write. Then look at places like Libraries Unlimited and Corwin Press and other education publishers. Also, just go to your teacher's supply store and look at the books that interest you and look like the one you want to write. Look inside the book for the contact info for the publisher of those books. YOu usually can't find the contact info anywhere else. I think the key to writing the query is to try to e-mail someone so you're talking to an actual person and not just in a slush pile somewhere. Once you find the publisher's contact info, try to find their website and try to find some sort of e-mail. Then just e-mail them and tell them you're a TEACHER WHO WRITES. So many people are WRITERS BUT DON'T TEACH. I've found that most educational publishers prefer working with teachers, not just writers. That's the best thing you can tell them. That's a big qualifier in their eyes. Then just try to look at their catalog and find books that your idea would fit into. Then in your e-mail tell them you studied their catalog, and saw titles that you liked and ask if they'd like to see a proposal for an idea (describe your idea in 1-2 sentences) and that the idea would fit into their titles.

Nancy: Ah! The elusive idea! It's like finding gold, isn't it? I find that most of my ideas come from reading other books. For instance, for the Book In A Month Club on my blog, I wanted to write an animal story. So I read through various Sylvan Dell books and discovered they didn't really have a book about raccoons. I asked myself as I read their catalog--which animals haven't they written about. Then when I was reading--guess what--the Children's Writer--it had an article about bedtime books. So I went to the Sylvan Dell catalog and saw they didn't really have a book that was a bedtime book. So then I needed an idea about raccoons and bedtime books, so I got picture books about raccoons and bedtime story books. And as I read through my BIG stack of books, all sorts of ideas just popped into my head. I read how raccoons are wise so I decided to have my raccoon do a wise thing in my book. In fact every time I get stuck for ideas, I just grab a whole pile of books and start to read and soon my head has so many ideas! Also, when you try to view the world through the eyes of a writer, you're always looking for that elusive idea. Just start telling youself, "I am a writer." And tell everyone else--even if they don't believe it. I remember the first time I ever told someone I was a writer (before I'd written anything. Smile) and she screamed and said she was a writer, too! She was a perfect stranger but it instantly connected us and we started a critique group together. So I keep an idea file for ideas that hit me at random times.

Nancy: Yes! Before I ever send a query, I do hours of homework. Sometimes even weeks. I can take the time because I am always developing a query for a new idea while I'm writing another manuscript. So first I find a publisher to target. Then I study, study, study their website and catalog and even read their books until an idea takes shape for a topic that would fit into their product line but that they haven't yet published. Then I get the basic idea for the framework of the book in my head because the VERY first thing they're going to ask me to see is that plot/outline. But when I send them a query, I don't have to explain the plot that thoroughly. Then, if they respond and say yes, they'd like to see a proposal, I always ask for a month to prepare the proposal. And then I spend that month developing a working outline/plot/structure for the book.

Jan: So, whether you're writing fiction or nonfiction, you're always doing research of some kind in preparation?

Nancy: Yes. As a writer, if I just wrote one book from beginning to end and THEN started on my next project, I'd never make a steady income! So I try to work on at least 3 projects at one time:

• Project #1 To get published on a regular basis
• Project #2 To just write something I feel like writing without a contract
• Project #3 To land a book contract

Jan: So, since you mention low/no pay -- have you done magazine writing too?

Nancy: Yes, I'm had more success with books, but all along I've written for magazines, too. In fact, this year my "low-pay" project is to have a monthly column in a writer's magazine on how to get published. It just feels good to see my work in print even tho there isn't much money. It helps me feel validated as a writer while I'm waiting for those long book contracts that can be few and far between. I always recommend every writer for low or no pay assignments that get published frequently. It helps us learn to work with editors and helps increas our self-confidence as writers. For instance, small magazines, local newspapers, church newsletters...that sort of thing. It really has helped me as a writer to grow.

Jan: So what magazine has your column...you know, case we wanna go buy a copy?

Nancy: I write feature fiction stories and nonfiction for Focus on the Family's Clubhouse Jr. Oh--the writer's magazine--it's called THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNICATOR. Has nice interview of editors for the Christian market, too!

Nancy: Each picture book publisher will have a different preference. For instance, for D is for Drinking Gourd, they had 2 requirements. The poem on each page had to have 4 lines--no word count there But the sidebar had to have a certain number of words because otherwise it wouldn't fit in the space! A general rule of thumb is between 100-1500 for a 32-page full color picture book. Shorter than that and you might have a magazine story or a beginning reader or concept type book. The best way to find out is to actually count--yes I do this!--word for word the picture books that your target publisher publishes. Do this if you can't find a word count on their submissions page on their website.

Nancy: Smile. It's the WEIGHT. And the STRUCTURE. It's kind of a strange thing to describe, but let me try. Think PICTURES. A magazine story can just have 1 or 2 pictures and the child is happy hearing the story read to them and seeing the 1 or 2 pictures. A picture book just DEMANDS a picture for each new thing that is happening in the story. Now, you can have the BEGINNINGS of a picture book manuscript, but it might not have enough specific scenes to create the entire picture book. The best thing I recommend is to staple blank pages together to look like a blank 32-page picture book. Then get out your scissors and tape. Cut up your manuscript sentence by sentence. Play with those little pieces of paper and tape them to the various pages. See if you have enough to make the 32 page book. If you do, then check the WEIGHT of each page. Each individual page--or 2 page spread--in a picture book must carry the same WEIGHT as all the rest. The same ah ha! factor. The same oomph. You can't just divide the text into 31 equal portions (because a pb starts on page 3 and ends on page 32) You could have 10 sentences on one page and 1 sentence on the next 2--page spread, and if they carry the same weight, it's a success. The best way to learn about weight is to read tons of picture books all in a row. Read them outloud slowly; see what it feels like before you turn the page; see how each page makes you feel. That's the weight a pb manuscript needs to have to distinguish it from a magazine story.

Nancy: If I don't hear from a publisher by 3 months, I contact them. So, after 3 months there is always a back and forth going. Three months is standard in the industry so they won't mind if you contact them. In this day and age where ms get lost or e-mails disappear, they won't mind. Now, after we start going back and forth and saying things like: I'm just checking that you received my manuscript, and they say, Yes, we haven't gotten to it yet. Then I give them another month or so and contact them again. This can go on awhile. So--I just got an official rejection after 2 1/2 years, I think that this process went back and forth. :o( But sometimes, if I need to move the ms forward, I'll just say I need a response by the end of the month and then I'm moving on.

Jan: Ouch

Nancy: Yes, it hurt! It was with a huge publisher and they were interested, so I was sad... But such is the life of a writer... and I was working on other projects all along, which they say is the best medicine for this rejection-oriented world we work in.

Jan: Keeping a lot of work going is key to surviving the frustrations and wait and rejection.

Nancy: That's for sure!

Nancy: Again, each publisher is different. Usually, though, they wait until the book is finished and submitted by the deadline. For Drinking Gourd, I first contacted the publisher around Feb, I think. My deadline was Sept, I think, by the time we got the contract going. So I turned my manuscript in in Sept but then it took awhile to find an illustrator. I think E.B. joined the project by Feb.

Jan: Okay, last question since we're rolling toward end of time...wow, that sure flew...

Nancy: Yes, the research for historical fiction is just as hard to do as for a nonfiction book. That's why for a MG novel, I asked my publisher for a year to write it. I knew the research would be really intense because I have to create the entire world. I can't just list facts like I can in a NF book. So I'm spending several weeks just doing research for each chapter I'm writing.

Jan: So, do you kinda have the plot in mind, but you're really working on correct flesh for it or are you going with more of an idea...and seeing where the research takes you?

Nancy: Yes--that's how it is! My main character is fiction, so first I created the main plot in her world which is totally fiction. But now I'm planning the plot of the story according to how the research is filling out my outline. I'm researching the actual events first. And then filling in plot details from t here And of course, I'm developing subplots, too. So I'm really fleshing out my plot/outline as I research.

Jan: That sounds hard -- no wonder you aren't flying through the book. I'm sure the reader will appreciate it though...bringing a whole 'nother time to life again.

Nancy: That's what I hope! And some of the research is so obscure. But there are so many people who are fanatics about researching that era that I have to be super, super careful not to make a mistake since this is the first time I'm studying this event and era in depth. That's why I didn't want to rush it. I wanted to enjoy writing it!

Jan: Well, that brings us to the end of our time. And I am SO IMPRESSED by all the good stuff you shared tonight. I know I learned a ton. And I'm definitely going to put some of it to use.

Nancy: Thanks! It was a delight to join in the fun!

Nancy: You're welcome!!!! And best wishes! Just remember--If one can, you can. If two can, you can, too! I started with nothing and here I am, today. You can do it, too!

Jan: Thanks again -- you're an inspiration. And everyone to make sure to visit Nancy's blog.

Nancy: Thanks, Good-bye!