Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Working with Book Packagers" with Dori Butler

Thursday, July 29, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Dori is our guest speaker, Dori Butler. Dori is a Regional SCBWI advisor who has used her degrees in English and child psychology to write for children. Her writing has included picture books (M is for Minnesota, W is for Wisconsin, Great Tooth Fairy Rip Off), stories and articles in magazines like Cricket and Highlights, reviews of children's books and software, dozens of educational pieces, and six books in the Sweet Valley Twins series.

Names color coded in green are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! I'm your moderator and web editor, Kristi Holl, and I'm glad you could join us tonight to hear Dori Butler speak about "Working With Book Packagers." Dori's writing has included "ghostwriting" six books for the Sweet Valley Twins series, work she found through book packagers. She has also written picture books for regional presses and small presses, stories and articles in magazines like Cricket and Highlights, and more than 50 pieces for Harcourt Brace's educational division. Hi, Dori! We're glad you could make it!

Dori: Hi everyone! I'm happy to be here! Thanks for inviting me, Kristi.

MODERATOR: First of all, Dori, have you always wanted to write for children?

Dori: Well, I didn't always want to write FOR CHILDREN necessarily, but I always wanted to be a writer.

MODERATOR: What in your background and experience made you turn to writing for children then, rather than adults?

Dori: It was my freshman year in college. I took creative writing and one of my classmates was an education major. When it was her turn to read her story, she sort of apologized because her story was a children's story. But her story touched me in a way no other story had in a long time. (It had been a long time since I'd read anything for children.) It just seemed so real. And it was like a light came on and I suddenly knew I wanted to write for children. I had never thought about it before that day.

MODERATOR: When did you get serious about writing for children and getting published?

Dori: When I graduated from college. I couldn't make up my mind whether to go on to graduate school or medical school, but I was already married. And my husband suggested I take a year off from school and just try writing, since that was what I really wanted to do. He said I should give it a year and see whether I could (1) sell something and (2) see whether I really enjoyed writing all day. I sold my first story the second time I sent it out and I found I loved being a writer even more than I thought I would. By the end of the year, I was pregnant with our first child and I tossed out all those graduate school catalogs. I've never looked back!

MODERATOR: What changed with your writing when you got serious about it?

Dori: One, I wrote every day. I considered it my "job." And two, I sent my stories out.

Sasquatch: Did you take any writing courses, or did doing all the right things come naturally to you?

Dori: I took creative writing in college. And my instructor took an interest in me and became sort of a mentor. I also took a course from Marion Dane Bauer about 6-7 years ago.

Steve: Did those classes really help you?

Dori: Yes and no. One thing I've learned over the years is writers are continually evolving and learning. I still have a lot to learn. The best way to learn to write is to write often. And to read!

Lee: Did you have any tricks in the beginning to get you into writing daily?

Dori: Not really. I had the house to myself. And here my husband was kind enough to encourage me to write while he went out and earned money. So I just felt like my time should be spent writing.

Brenker: Did you find additional inspiration from having young children around as well?

Dori: Yes. Even before we had children, I still spent time with children. I was a child psychology major. And I did a weekly story hour at the children's hospital. That helped a lot. I was around kids and reading kids books!

MODERATOR: You've written picture books, middle grade fiction, educational pieces for all grade levels; do you think all writers should try a wide variety of ages and subjects?

Dori: Some writers do prefer to stick with one age group or one genre, but I like variety. I think a writer should write what he/she feels passionate about. I'm more passionate about "being a writer" than I am about writing for one age group or in one genre. And I figure by doing a variety of things, I'm more likely to sell.

Brenker: Is there a specific genre that you prefer to write?

Dori: I like middle grade novels -- that's where I'd really like to make a name for myself.

MODERATOR: You've published in very competitive magazine markets like Highlights and Cricket. What enabled you to crack these tougher markets?

Dori: Perseverance! And luck. I got the right story to the right person at the right time.

Brenker: Have you ever had to deal with "writer's block" (especially when under a critical deadline?)

Dori: I get blocked on one project or another quite often. When that happens, I switch to a different project.

MODERATOR: You've published books with both large book packagers and well established series, as well as with a small press and a regional press. First, which of your books were done with a book packager?

Dori: I wrote Sweet Valley Twins #93, 101 and 103, Team Sweet Valley #1 and Unicorn Club #13 and 15.

Sasquatch: Does it bother you when you 'ghost write' that you don't get a lot of credit for your work?

Dori: No. I consider it a "job." I get paid to do this work. Besides, anyone who knows me very well will recognize me in every SVT book I've written.

MODERATOR: Backing up, what IS a book packager exactly?

Dori: A packager is a sort of "middleman" between writers and publishers. Sometimes they approach publishers with an idea for a book or a series of books. Other times publishers come to them. Usually packagers hire their own writers and illustrators, they edit, sometimes design, then turn an almost finished product over to a publisher.

MODERATOR: Are all series produced by book packagers?

Dori: No. You can tell whether a series was produced by a packager by checking the copyright page. The publisher's name will appear on the copyright page, but so will the packager's, if there is one. For example, Sweet Valley and Clearwater Crossing are both published by BDD (or Random House now, I guess). But on the copyright page, the Sweet Valley books also give credit to Daniel Weiss Associates (the packager). Clearwater Crossing gives credit to the author.

Tonzo: Can you tell us some of the advantages and disadvantages of selling picture books or any books to a packager?

Dori: Well, if you've got a single picture book, you probably want to go with a regular publisher. Packagers do mostly series books, media tie-ins, biographies etc.

rspain: How hard is it to get hired by a packager? Do you have to have books published already to write for packagers?

Dori: I didn't have books published when I got hired. I had published around 25 magazine stories.

Steve: How do I approach a packager?

Dori: First, you're more likely to get results if you know what series you want to write for. Don't just send a generic letter saying, "I can write anything. Please hire me!" Tell them what series you want to write for. Tell them you've read a bunch of books from that series and that you really enjoyed them (flattery never hurts) and that you feel your style is very similar. Ask them to send you an "audition. I also included a separate sheet of paper listing all 25 magazine credits as well as a copy of one of my published stories that was similar in style to SVT.

rspain: Could I just send samples of my unpublished writing to a book packager?

Dori: That's a good way to get your foot in the door -- especially if you don't have published clips to send. That way they see that you can indeed write. But they will ask you to do some sort of "audition" before they'll hire you.

Sasquatch: When you do a book through packagers, do they initiate the story line, and then you write it? How does that work?

Dori: It depends on the series and the packager. Many (most?) do work from outlines.

Sasquatch: Tell us about an 'audition'.

Dori: Well, for Sweet Valley Twins, I was sent an outline. The outline was already assigned to another editor, so I knew right up front that I wasn't going to be writing that particular book. Instead, I had to read the outline and write two sample chapters. That was my audition. I was also asked to do a revision. They hired me after that. It was interesting to see the book I auditioned on when it came out. The first two chapters were very different from mine. It's interesting how two writers can take the same idea and come up with two very different pieces of writing.

Steve: Are the deadlines really tight?

Dori: Usually, yes. I had 4-6 weeks to write my 30,000 word Sweet Valley Twins novels. At first that seemed really overwhelming, but I never had trouble meeting the deadline. I just followed the outline. I cranked the last one out REALLY fast because I was so used to the style.

MODERATOR: These next two questions are similar . . .

Brenker: Will they accept new story ideas for an existing series?

huckleberrygirl: Can you pitch your own series idea to a packager?

Dori: Brenker, it depends on the series. If the series is established, with recurring characters, I think they usually have story outlines. But certainly there are exceptions to that. Nancy Drew, for example. Huckleberrygirl, yes you can pitch original series ideas to packagers and then if they like the idea, they will shop it around to publishers.

huckleberrygirl: Are your contracts an ongoing thing, or are they on a per-book basis?

Dori: I think that varies from series to series/packager to packager. I was usually asked how many books I wanted to sign up for over a 6 month period.

Sasquatch: What is the advantage, if there is one, to writing for a packager when you could write the books on your own?

Dori: Well, I think of working for a packager (and writing for existing series) as "on the job training." I learned a lot about writing, structure, working with an editor meeting deadlines. I gained a lot of confidence in myself. And I got paid!

Lee: Can you do this work 'electronically' long distance now?

Dori: I'm not sure I know what you mean, Lee. Do you mean can I send my work to Daniel Weiss Associates via e-mail or are you asking whether there are online opportunities for work-for-hire?

Lee: Via e-mail or online is what I meant.

Dori: With two of my publishers (not the packager), everything I send is via e-mail. These two editors LOVE e-mail, the Internet etc. But my editor at Daniel Weiss preferred hard copy -- that way she could mark it up and send it back to me for a revision.

Tonzo: Is there any point in dealing with a packager if you're not interested in writing series?

Dori: Probably not. (That's just my opinion, though.)

MODERATOR: What's the best piece of advice you could give someone who wanted to write for an existing series?

Dori: MATCH THE TONE OF THE SERIES (yes, I meant to shout that). Don't try and write "better" than the series. Don't try and "fix" all the things you think are wrong with the series. I actually know of a couple of people who are convinced their auditions were better than the actual books and couldn't figure out why they weren't hired. Maybe their samples really were better? I don't know. What I do know is packagers need writers who can match the tone of their series.

Steve: How does the money compare to having your own book published?

Dori: It depends. How well is your own book going to do? Usually packagers don't pay a royalty. Or if they do, it's a small one. But they pay a pretty nice flat fee.

MODERATOR: You gave us titles (by the numbers) of the books you wrote for that series; I've heard that some people aren't allowed to tell which ones they wrote. Why?

Dori: That's true. Again, it depends on the packager and the series. The reason some writers can't talk about the books they wrote for a particular series is the creators/publishers don't want the general public to know that these books weren't really written by the person whose name appears on the cover.

MODERATOR: Interesting!! Several of the next questions are similar...

Sasquatch: How do you find a packager?

Annie: Are there a listing of packagers?

LibraryLady: How did you know where to send your original interest letter requesting the audition?

Sasquatch and Annie first...then I'll answer LibraryLady. The Society of Children's Book Writers & Illustrators has a list of packagers, their addresses and what they're looking for. If you're a member of SCBWI you can send an SASE to the National Office and request it. Then there's also AMERICAN BOOK PRODUCERS ASSOCIATION DIRECTORY and LITERARY MARKETPLACE. You should be able to find those in your local library. As for how did I know where to send my original interest letter... I had read a bunch of Sweet Valley Twins books before I ever contacted Daniel Weiss Associates. I saw their name on the inside cover of the books. I don't remember if their address was there, too, or whether I looked up the address in the SCBWI guide.

huckleberrygirl: If I pitched a series idea and it was picked up, do you know whether I would remain the author of the series, or would others be hired to work on it as well? Do you know whether those original authors draw up successive outlines, or would they be generated in-house?

Dori: I can't really answer that. It would depend on the packager, the publisher, and probably even the series idea. I know of some series that were ghostwritten right from the start. I know of others where the original author wrote them all until about book 25 or so. When a series gets that popular, where there are 25 or more books in the series, it gets hard for the original author to keep up. By this point, you can't really slip in the schedule. They're expecting one book every month. So you need other writers.

Tonzo: Do you think a packager that does novelty books (e.g. lift-the-flap) specifically would be helpful in marketing such a picture book? As opposed to going directly with a publisher?

Dori: I'm afraid I don't know much about novelty books...one thing I do know about them, they are very expensive to produce.

Sasquatch: When one author does many books, do they continue to have that author's name on the cover, even when she (or he) is no longer the sole author?

Dori: Yup. But on the dedication page you might see a line like "the author wishes to thank so-and-so for their help in preparing this manuscript." Some publishers give you that, some don't. You're more likely to get that if you're working on a series for the publisher rather than for a packager.

Lee: As an unpublished (as yet) writer - if they liked my audition what could one expect in terms of money?

Dori: It would depend on the series. They really vary -- $1000-10,000.

Brenker: Do you know if adult romance books (i.e. Harlequin series, etc.) are produced by packagers?

Dori: I'm sorry -- I don't know much about adult romance lines. If you're interested in writing for Harlequin, I would think you could find them in Writer's Market and you could request guidelines from them.

Tonzo: Aren't there some packagers who don't do any series? Do they have extra clout in marketing individual books to publishers?

Dori: There may very well be packagers who don't do series -- my knowledge is limited to my experience. When I speak of series, I'm not just talking about popular paperback series. There are probably more packagers (at least who publish children's material) who are doing educational type series than there are packagers who do popular paperback series. I'm not sure I understand the second half of your question?

Tonzo: I thought maybe the marketing clout was one advantage of selling to a packager rather than a publisher?

Dori: I would imagine the advantage from the publisher's point of view would be: here's a series that somebody else is really excited about, so there must be something worth looking at. Otherwise the packager wouldn't have sent this to me. In other words, the packager acts as something of a screen.

(GO TO PART 2 OF DORI'S INTERVIEW NOW)

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