Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with LeUyen Pham, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site.
Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Uyen.

Jan: Hi, and welcome to tonight's special event -- a chat with guest speaker, LeUyen Pham. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and tonight we're going to learn more about the magical process of illustration. Since I have fallen in love with Uyen's work many times over, I'm especially delighted to chat with her tonight. If you have a question you wish to ask, you'll need to use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and type your question. That passes the question to me and I can post it for LeUyen so that she can answer it for you and in the transcript. Now, let's get going.

Jan: So...welcome Uyen...and I am soooo jealous of all your travelling.

Uyen: I love it! Haven't had enough of it lately, for sure...

Jan: I did swim with dolphins once though...well...basically I sort of floated like a cork actually.

Uyen: I can't even swim! It was in Hawaii, and I was practicing with my boyfriend at the time. We were suddenly surrounded by 'em! I was too excited to be scared. I actually found myself swimming out after them, and discovered twenty minutes later I was way off shore. It was amazing. I'm still terrified of water, but get me with dolphins, and I lose my head.

Uyen: You know, the ones in Hawaii I'm assuming are really used to people. They swam in groups and actually headed straight for us, but didn't hit us or anything. My boyfriend took off after them, leaving me floating alone, and I turn around, and there they all come! They got within two feet of me, and I could feel the rush of water, but didn't get hurt or anything.

Uyen: After 15 years? I'd first recommend going to a couple SCWBI conferences, just to see how much the industry has changed. I've only been doing it for about six or seven years now, so I can't tell you much about the change. I think the real thing to do is to go to the bookstores and see what kind of work is out there now and to see what kind of publishers are doing what. Once you sort of acclimate yourself to the business of what's current, start sending postcard mailers. I usually suggest about 3-4 mailings a year. Although, I can give you the secret of my mailings. I don't normally do them. What I do is isolate about ten publishers I"m dying to work for and then send just those ten publishers a really special promo, like a small bound book of my work. Those are easier to spot in the "slush pile", and if you do them nicely enough, editors will keep them as little gifts on their desk. I once went to visit an editor who still had my promo -- three years old! -- on her desk. She said she was keeping an eye out for manuscripts for me, and having it there helped remind her of me.

Jan: A bound book of your work? Like one of the books you've worked on, or like a portfolio in a book?

Uyen: A very small book! Usually, about 3" by 5", with about 8 images nicely printed inside. They look like little treasures, and they're lots of fun to make too. I usually find some nice japanese paper to wrap the outside with, with a window i cut into it to paste an image. And of course, bound between sturdy wrapped cardboard, sometimes sewn together, looks great. I've only had to do those mailers three times in my life, and I've always gotten work from it. In a way, if I had done a traditional mailer, I'm usually lucky to get three calls. With those ten books, I got ten calls, and five manuscripts.

Uyen: You know, in my experience, I usually find that the best go-between, and usually the advocate of animal vs. people as subject matter, is the editor. I think if you have any problems with how the image is being rendered, if you haven't specifically requested the rights for refusal in your contract, you can usually get the editor to speak on your behalf. I often find too that the editor will have a greater say for the illustrator, suggesting to turn the manuscript into an "animal" story for sales purposes more than anything else. When in doubt, GO TO THE EDITOR!

Jan: Have you personally ever had contact with the author of a book while you were illustrating -- I know a lot of illustrators I've talked with have not.

Uyen: Usually, no. Though I've had a horrendous experience with an author when she did have the contracted right to edit my work. It involved a story in which I had done some heavy research, as the subject matter was touchy (concerning religion), and I didn't want to offend anyone. The author insisited some of the images look a certain way that I knew to be offensive to the religion, and when I pointed it out, there was a mini-battle between us. In the end, because it was in her contract, she got final say.... But the story doesn't end there. When I finished all the illustrations, the book was taken to a trade show, where one of the first comments was "THAT"S OFFENSIVE!" pointing specifically to the images I was concerned about. I was forced to RE-DO those images, the same ones I had fought to NOT do, at that point. That was the first and last time I ever worked with a writer who had such final say. So sometimes, you should trust the illustrator.

Jan: Oh, how totally horrible...I'm so sorry on behalf of writers everywhere...how very skunky.

Uyen: It was just the one case. Otherwise, I've done nearly twenty books, and I've loved every other writer. I've met with several authors AFTER I've finished the books and the authors were fabulous. One of my favorites is Eve Bunting -- the most generous lady! And Phil Bildner, who wrote 21 elephants, is now a really good friend as well.

Jan: I happen to know one of your writers is in the audience -- Dori Chaconas...I saw her sneak in. I'm so in love with the animals in One Little Mouse. My daughter wanted all of them to move in with us.

Uyen: Ah, that was one of my favorites to do! I never met Dori, unfortunately. I was actually living in Paris at the time idid that book, so it's got more sentimental value than most. I had such fun with the animals, too! When I was little, I used to dream that I could speak to animals, so in a way, it was my childhood dream manifest to illustrate them!

Uyen: In a mailer, if you're just sending a postcard, you should try to use an image that really catches the eye, preferably with a strong character, I think. Most of my editors seem to respond to characters more than anything. Always include your website address. And In your website, include about 12-15 samples of your work. All your work should have strong story behind them. That is, if you paint an image, do your best to suggest a story in that image somehow. I always get the best responses to an image that suggests a plotline without giving it away. A great assignment I give my students is called the "Harris Burdnick" assignment. Are you all familiar with Harris Burdnick, the book by Chris Van Alsburg? It's great, a collection of pictures with a single title and a single caption. I give my students a great title like "The Amazing Race", and then a caption like, "Farmer Harris would not sleep well that night", and then the students come up with the best image sfor it. Editors who see it always ask "What's this story about the Amazing Race? Tell me about Famer Harris!" And then they're hooked!

Uyen: For a portfolio, you should have 12-15 pieces, and then maybe five pages of character designs. And if you could include a book dummy to show that you understand how books are mocked up, that's great. I'd suggest choosing a well know story, like a grimms fairytale, and turning it into a 32 page book dummy. Editors like to know that you understand how the books are mocked up, as it saves them time training you.

Jan: Students? So you teach art? Illustration? (I'm learning so much about you here)

Uyen: Yup, I teach at the Academy of Art College in San Francisco , the graduate and undergraduate class for "Children's Book Illustration". Just one day a week, though even that's been too much lately. I might cut it down to one class a year... It's been crazy with my schedules!

Uyen: Absolutely! I went to an amazing art school, and sincerely recommend it, but I know that even if I hadn't gone, my passion would have made me go forward into the business anyway. And I know there are a few illustrators out there who have made it as well, though names escape me at the moment. All you need to make it is some raw talent, natural drive, the desire to succeed, and the passion to keep everything going! And a good partner doesn't hurt -- my husband's responses to my work at invaluable.

Uyen: That depends if you're the author and illustrator, or if you're an author, and you have a separate illustrator. If you're both the writer and the illustrator, it's great to submit a manuscript with a mocked up book dummy, and a couple completed illustrations. You don't want to submit an entire finished book -- chances are, the editor will want to go over things with you and change quite a bit if they're intrerested in publishing so best to just submit a couple finished pieces so the editor gets the idea for the style of the book. With a book dummy, they'll feel more comfortable giving you feedback for changes. Now if you're a writer and you want to pair with an illustrator. BAD IDEA! In most cases, I think manuscripts will be rejected outright if it's submitted by a writing/illustrating team, with the exception of a husband or fammily member, or unless both the writer and illustrator are famous or well known. The reason for this, I've been told is because often times, the editor might like the writing better than the illustration, or vice versa, and rather than have to break the bad news to one of the partners, they just reject the whole lot. You may submit a manuscript with a different ilustrator's work thinking it'll strengtehn your presentation but often times it works in the absolute reverse. So NO, I wouldn't suggest submitting both if you're a writer looking for an illustrator.

Uyen: I have no idea! I haven't seen that myself. My best guess is that they might be smaller publishers who are anxious to get started, and are more willing to experiment with a team. Either that, or they're referring specifically to an artist who is both a writer and illustrator, as opposed to two different people.

Uyen: That is an old story, and one I've heard forever, but I always give the same advice. If your friend really wants to make it, they'll find the work themselves. If they need you to nudge them, chances are they'll have a hard time surviving the industry. I say that mostly because, given the statistics, IT IS TOUGH! I think it's something like only 10 percent of manuscripts get considered, and of that only 10 percent get published. that's about 1%! For artists, its' a bit easier, as it's easier to look at a postcard to see if an artist is any good than it is to read a manuscript straight off and know it's good. I think if you're friend has real talent, and like I said, has the drive to do it, he/she needs to start getting postcards together and a portfolio and a website (WEBSITE IS KEY!)_ and start sending out mailers. And very possibly, not expect to hear anything for a few months! I think the average time it takes an editor to respond to you is about 2 months, and that's longer if you've just gotten into the field.

Uyen: Oh, boy, that's a big one. We'll start with the first question. Typical payscale for a first book is well under $10,000 for a fairly good publisher, less if it's smaller, more if it's bigger, and more if the artist is already well known, if not in the book industry. I'll have to answer the next question with the illustrator in mind. To my students, I always recommend that they NEVER EVER relinquish their rights to the copyrights of their artwork and that if a first-time publisher is willing to let them keep the rights, and will pay them royalties, then I'd recommend a smalelr advance if that's all that can be offered. Many illustrators, though, are just barely making ends meet, and people will sometimes take advantage of that and get more from than they should. So, speaking for the illustratoar, I do recommend giving them their royalties and letting them keep their rights. The process of getting nominated usually depends on the publisher and how much the publisher advocates their books. Some smaller houses can't afford to pay as much per book, but they are fiercely loyal to their artists and submit their books to all kinds of contests, in hopes of winning a prize wherein they can put a big gold foil sticker on their books to promote sales. For bigger publishers, I think that they are less likely to promote books of all their artists, and are more likely to prop up their best selling artists. Otherwise, as an artist, I submit to contests myself. Usually, I can get the publisher to pay the fee for the contests, but not always. And as for the coveted Caldecott and such, it's just up to those librarians! I think they tend to see the books that are pushed more by publishers, but sometimes a book gets on their list by simple word of mouth.

Uyen: That's a good question! Right now, graphic novels are HOT! There are many major publishing houses opening graphic novel divisions as we speak, including several of my own publishers. Some that come to mind are Hyperion Books, who are specializing in anime-style girl books (I've seen some mock-ups of some great ones already in process!). As well, Scholastic Books is beginning a division of graphic novels, i think with a more historical twist to it. I think they're adapting real stories into graphic novel form from history. And of course, the big one out there currently is First:Second Books, a division of Roaring Brook. Mark Siegel is the top guy there, and he's putting out nothing but graphic novels at the moment. I"m doing one with him myself later this year. But barring all that, the ones that I seem to love the most are the ones that come from Zines first. You know, self published little mailers that seem to make it to all the cool places. Word of mouth gets around on these, and eventually, some big publisher picks up on them. And get yourself an online website as well! A ton of great graphic novelists are gathering fans by publishing daily comics and posting them so people keep coming to see their website, and that's how they sell their work as well.

Uyen: For me? Well, I'm pretty fast. The longest I've ever taken on a book, from start to finish, was about three months. The shortest, about a week and a half. I do about 4-5 books a year, and lots of other stuff on the side. But I'm freakish in that way. I've sort of got the reputation in the industry for pulling out a book pretty quickly and decently. I did the books 21 ELEPHANTS in three months, including the research time it took to fly out to Brooklyn to take pictures. I think that story is legendary in the publishing world, and my editors call me to do crash jobs for them because of it.

Jan: A week and a half? You make my hands cramp just thinking about it...do you sleep when you're on deadline?

Uyen: Yes and no. I get about 6 hours average on deadline, with little catnaps. But I can only do it for a couple weeks before I crash. And then, I take a couple weeks off and do nothing. Ah, the life of an illustrator!

Uyen: I don't think there's any single preferred medium out there. Watercolor is seen a lot, it seems. And computer generated artwork is pretty big. The one medium I don't see too much of is oils, and I'm guessing because it just takes too long to dry. I saw book that was done in pastels, and they were huge! A good 3 feet by 4 feet, something like that. The guy who did the book had to hand-deliver the art on the flatbed of his truck, and he separated the images with little wooden blocks to keep the pastel from smearing. When he arrived in New York, he had brought his pastels, and was still retouching the images when he delivered them. They were a bear to photograph, I tell you! BUt the book is gorgeous.

Jan: What media do you work in?

Uyen: Me? All kinds! Water color is my specialty, but I've done gouache, pen and ink, and computer generated stuff as well. I've done a few books purely digitally -- great fun! And easier to deliver the art -- on a CD! No fears about your art getting lost, I tell you.

Jan: Ahhh...one of our chatters wants to know what are graphic novels and anime?

Uyen: Graphic novels are more commonly known as "Comic Books", though I think most people resist the label.They are, actually, exactly what they sound like -- full stories or novels told through pictures with thought and word bubbles. They are amazing works of art, and take ages and ages to do, as you have to be both Anime refers to more japanese style graphic novels, where the characters resemble more the japanese aesthetic of animation than western. Some great graphic novels I'd recommend to you all out there if you've never read them: Persepolis, by Marjane Satrapi, about a young persian girl growing up in iran during the Iranian Cultural Revolution. The story is amazing, and the character of Persepolis is univeral in her appeal. Another good graphic novel is "From Hell", the story that the movie starring Johnny Depp is based on. It's the story of jack the Ripper, and the author did extensive research on the topic, more than most writers would for a real novel.r It's over three hundred pages long, and packed with intense story line and amazing drawings. And a gentler one is called "Blankets" by Craig Thompson. It's the story of a first love about a young country boy from Wisconsin, I think. Really sweet story.

Jan: I see a lot of that style in magazines these days too -- especially magazines targetting boys. Kids really respond to graphically told stories.

Uyen: Yeah, that's true. Though the big thing right now is to capture the girl market. I think they're making the series "The Baby Sitters Club" into a graphic novel. So if any of you are interested, that's something publishers are definitely looking for a the moment.

Uyen: No, not all. Many writers are put together with an illustrator by the editor for graphic novels. For the one I"m doing, I think the story was submitted by the writer first, and the editor loved the concept of it, and assigned me as the illustrator. In graphic novels, the role of the editor is more important than ever as they spend their time helping the writer, if they're a first time graphic novelist, reshpae their story to fit it into a graphic novel format. It's not easy, believe me! There's a lot to do for pacing of the story, and you can't make the book too dialogue heavy. Often, you wrote in parenthesis, sugesting the action that would occur on the page. It's akin a screenwriter and a story board artist -- they have to work together to make it work. But the screen play generally comes first!

Jan: So when you submit a story like that...as a manuscript -- is it like any manuscript? Or does the writer need to think about how it's going to break out into the art? Do you know?

Uyen: I'm not too familiar, but my guess is that a manuscript like that would probably do better if the writer has some history with graphic novels and understands how the pacing of a book works. That is, they understand that they can't put an action scene there, and then follow it up with a boring four page dialogue, because they'll lose the audience. But I've been assured by my editors that the story is most important -- if there's a gem in the rough, the editor is there to polish it up!

Uyen: That's funny! That's actually for editors trying to solicit me with manuscripts they want me to illustrate. I never thought about the wording of tht -- it sounds like i'm a publisher! I've also had total strangers try to get me to illustrate something for them, so I figured putting that on my site would make it easier for them to direct their stories.

Jan: Plus, if the total stranger contacts your agent and your agent says, sure, that will just be a bizillion dollars, the stranger can go quietly away.

Uyen: Yes! I've had some crazy contacts, too! I once had lady email me the idea for a story, and I always do the same thing. I write a very nice letter, explaining that I'm usually booked, and if they're interested in publishing they hould consider an agent. And then I wish them luck and usually they don't write back. But this one lady, she wrote back immediately, saying something like "This is goign to make a million DOllars!" And then wrote back three minutes later saying "Just get off your lazy a** and do it!" and then "You'll be sorry you missed out on this!" very freaky.

Jan: Oh, my goodness... but I bet I can beat that!

Uyen: I bet you can!

Jan: I had a doctor want to tell me about a story idea that "I" could write for him, and he wanted to talk about it in the middle of a consult for a possible LUNG TRANSPLANT for my husband!

Uyen: NO WAY!!

Jan: Totally, I finally had to get kind of rude.

Uyen: KINDA RUDE? I"d have been all over him! How's your husband?

Jan: I mean, LUNG TRANSPLANT, hello doctor...I don't wanna talk about your idea for anti-obesity books for kids.

Uyen: Why do doctors always have that same idea? I've been approached with that myself.

Jan: I guess they figure all the kiddies out there wanna be lectured about the wonders of broccoli and exercise...I know I went after the broccoli hiking books when I was a kid.

Uyen: Funny. How's your husband?

Jan: He's actually doing great, no lung transplant...new doctor.

Uyen: Hah! You had a doctor transplant!

Jan: Yeah, worked better and cost less.

Jan: So...tell me about Big Sister, Little Sister -- what was it like to switch to author/illustrator?

Uyen: That book was the perfect transition. For the longest time, I'd had a hang-up about writing. I don't know how you guys do it. But I was terrified to put pen to paper when it came to storytelling. I just froze up. But with that particulr book, It was originally intended as gift for my older sister on her 35th birthday. Once I had established that my "audience" was only one person, it made it much easier to write. Once she got the book, she cried and made me promise I'd submit it. I didn't think much would come of it, to tell you the truth. I figured it was too personal, and jokes too in-house, not enough people would get it and in fact, the first publishing house I sent it to didn't get back to me for three months. I figured it was a failure, but my sister insisted, and I stuck it in my portfolio on a trip to New York. Once I was there, my editor at Hyperion picked it up, asked about it, and all. I had bound it like a real little book -- it was tiny at the time!r She took it from my portfolio instantly and signed me for it imemdiately. It was great! Except for a few changes, she practically took the book as was. It was the best way for me, the coward, to get into writing -- by accident!

Jan: So, did it get you fired up to write tons more?

Uyen: Yes and no. I got so much feedback from that book, that suddenly I got loads of manuscripts coming in. It booked up my schedule completely for a while! BUt, my editor at Hyperion (the best lady ever!) signed me up for a two book, unnamed contract, where I'd write two more stories for them. The second one is the one I'm workign on now, called BUbba and Me. It's about my younger brother and I. We're in the middle of editing it now. So I am the luckiest illustrator to have such support.

Jan: How do you feel about illustration notes -- I know some illustrators have told me they find them kind of offensive. I know, I jump from topic to topic just to make you dizzy.

Uyen: Not offensive, exactly, but sometime sa little annoying. You're always allowed to pass on them, though. I've chosen to write nothing before.And I'm used to being DIZZY!

Jan: Tell us how you approach a book when you're assigned it...how do you get inside it to create your own story in effect in the illustrations?

Uyen: You know, I actually won't accept a book unless, the first time I read it, I'm already inside the story. What I mean by that, is if I've got a manuscript in front of me, and the first time I read it through, I get immediate visuals and a strong idea and vibe for the story, then I accept it. If I don't get that vibe, then I usually reject it. Not because it's a bad story, but because if the artist can't really feel the pulse of the story, you want another artist! Once I've accepted, my hands race to catch up with the images inside my head. So I usually start with teh devolopment of the characters first. I do a few designs of how I think the character looks, and send that off to the editor and while sh'es going over the designs, I start to mock up the book dummy. One thing I find in publishing, sometimes it takes ages to hear back from your editor, so i like to find things to do in between. While I work on the book dummy, I get back notes on the character, and once the character's approved, it's easy to build a world around that chracter. As I tend to change styles a lot, that's one thing that's definied immediately in the character desing -- the style of the book. BUt in answer to your questions, just LOTS of sketching! You should see my sketchbook...

Jan: I would love to see your sketchbook...I think illustrators are magic.

Uyen: I can say the same for writers! Especially now that I know hard it is for me to write just a tiny old picture book!

Jan: What publishers have you worked with?

Uyen: What publishers! Let' see, I started out first with Harcourt Books - they offered my my first book straight out of school about eight years ago. Then Dial Books came in, and then VIking BOoks. Simon and Schuster, Harpercollins, Bloomsbury, Hyperion, Scholastic... Oh boy, I"ve been around. I can't remember the others. They're all great, though. I've never had a bad experience. I tell people all the time that I would do this for free. I have a story: I once took a flight to Hong Kong, and on the sixteen hour flight plus layover, I did an illustration that paid for the trip. That was the highlight of my illustration career!

Uyen: No, not at all. It only helps, though. to have an effective design sense. I think for a writer, though graphics and such will always be fun for a website, and maybe catch your eye more, when it comes down to it, it's the quality of your work that's most important. Sometimes, an overly-flashy writer's website doesn't appeal to me, because what you're showcasing isn't your own skill, but the skill of someone else. I think it's loveliest to get samples of your writing on line and just present the whole thing as elegantly and simply as you can... Simple colors, simple shapes, no flashy buttons, easy to maneuver site maps. It's like eating- sometimes the yummiest foods out there are presented the simplest. Too much garnish and it ruins a dish.

Uyen: I think they do, if only to get their name out. BUt I'd actually recommend rather than a full on website, perhaps a blog would work better. I'm addicted to a few blogs out there by some great independent writers -- people who are being supported by an institutio, but their work is fully accessible. And the nice thing about a blog is how you can update it daily, to keep people in on your writing. And I"m sure it's wonderful if you'r ethe type of writer who needs an incentive to keep writing. There are a couple stories of writers on blogs who have had their books published of their blogs. The one that comes to mind is that soldier in Iraq who kept an amazing blog of his time in Iraq. They're collecting his letters and emails and publshing them now. And the blog is so immediate -- written while he was there, so there's a freshness to it that's unique to blog journals.

Jan: Blogs are very fun...one thing editors and agents say though is be sure not to be too whiney or negative about how your career is going.

Uyen: Absolutely! I have to admit, that's the one thing that keeps me from attending too many writer's conventions. I think if I had tried to start my career by attending a writer's conference, I might have quit before I started. Some of those writers were absolutely depressing about "I could wallpaper my room with my rejetions slips", etc. I empathize for sure, but it's hard to get up the excitement ot write if you're surrounded by such negative thinking. I guess it's all about finding your own way, sometimes. And one thing I do notice about people who tend to succeed in this business -- they're pretty cheerful people! With maybe the exception of Maurice Sendak.

Uyen: Oh, that's a tough one. I'm a bit of a machine, sometimes, I think. It seems that I can only work if I've got about six pots boiling at once! I think the trick is to keep the work fresh and interesting. I do books fairly quickly, so having so many projects in a year is helpful. My husband is working on a book now that he's worked on for over a year and it's hard for him to keep up with it. One thing that has always helped me is COMPANY! That is, working in a sort of studio environment. My bestfriend and I used to share a flat and a studio, and we kept each other motivated. We don't live together anymore, but we still send each other challenges through the email. And I'm forever sending her my latest work for her approval. But to stay on a single project for a while. Well, I believe in taking lots of walking breaks, and doing yoga, to keep you from going nutso in one place. Not a good answer, I'm sorry, but I'm still working on it myself!

Uyen: Yup. Modern Postcards, located in California. I think you can send them all your work digitally, and they're very good about getting back to you. You can order a pre-print for color approvals, as well.

Uyen: I'd suggest possibly sending your work to an agent, if you're feeling a bit squeamish yourself. Agents can do the tough work for you. An artist's agent, which is a little different. They take a pretty hefty cut, but if they choose to represent you. They'll peddle your work around for you so you won't have to.r Saves you time and effort, and often the agents already have the contacts. But it's not always easy to get one!

Uyen: No, unfortunately not. We're usuallly put together by our editors, and unles sthere's a booksigning involved, we don't usually meet. It's funny, though, I've just been given a manuscript written by Julianne Moore. Yes, the actress! She saw big sister, little sister, and wanted me to illustrate her first picture book. The first question she asked my editor was, "when do I get to meet the artist?" And the editor responded, "After she's finished with the book! maybe at a book signing!" So even the big movie stars don't get their way when it comes to publishing.

Jan: Awwww...that's nice. When George Clooney wants you to illustrate HIS first picture book, um...tell him he has to meet your writer friends too.

Uyen: YES! You'll be first on the list!!!!

Jan: Thank you kindly...aren't you just an ANGEL!

Uyen: Just doing my job, lady.

Jan: And we're running to the end of the chat time...wow, you did a fantastic job. And folks have already sent in like a bizillion thank yous.

Jan: And more like that!

Uyen: You're all more than welcome!

Jan: And I thank you very much...oh, wait...I'm supposed to tell you something...

Uyen: You don't have to tell me! I found out the hard way!

Jan: Thanks for coming everyone...and goodnight!