Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Revision: It's Drafty in Here" with Patricia Curtis Pfitsch

Thursday, March 14, 2002

Moderator: is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of 24 juvenile novels and 150+ articles and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Patty is Patricia Curtis Pfitsch, author of two juvenile novels, KEEPER OF THE LIGHT and THE DEEPER SONG, and numerous articles and short stories. A new novel, RIDING THE FLUME, will be released next fall. She talked with writers and editors about revision for the CHILDREN'S WRITER'S GUIDE TO 2002 (see Patricia's article "Revision: It's Drafty in Here")

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your Moderator for tonight. I'm happy to have with us Patricia Curtis Pfitsch who will be talking about the critical skill of revision. Patty is the author of two popular juvenile novels, KEEPER OF THE LIGHT and THE DEEPER SONG, and numerous articles and short stories. She talked with writers and editors about revision for the CHILDREN'S WRITER'S GUIDE TO 2002 (see her article "Revision: It's Drafty in Here") and she will be sharing their insights tonight as well. Welcome, Patty!

Patty: Hi! I'm glad I could be here tonight!

Moderator: What has changed in publishing the past ten years or so that makes it critical for writers to know how to revise and edit thoroughly?

Patty: I think it's always been important to submit the best work you can. But these days editors are very busy with the other parts of their job (sales meetings, conferences, etc.) They don't have nearly as much time for the actual hands-on editing work as they used to. Not only that, with thousands of manuscripts passing through editors' offices every year, the competition is intense. Your manuscript will be compared to so many others. It's crucial to present polished work.

Moderator: What is the purpose of editing and revising? Is it basically to check spelling and grammar, then cut down the word count to the required length?

Patty: Of course those things are important. But I'd say these things are the final parts of the revising process (part of the polishing you do at the end.) Revision is re-visioning your work. You take a long deep look at your draft. You see what you really have, what the story is, what the characters' motivations are. Then you figure out how to best reveal that in the work. You learn things about your characters during revision that you never knew before.

Gregory: Hi. Are revisions the same as looking at your story from new and/or different perspective?

Patty: I'd say yes, sometimes it's the same. Sometimes you find that your first perspective is the right one, and sometimes you decide a different view is better.

Moderator: Patty, how many times do you personally revise a manuscript?

Patty: Every time I sit down to write I begin by editing and revising what I've written so far. So by the time I get to the end of the first draft, some of it has been revised hundreds of times. And that's just the first draft. Then I put it aside for a while. My readers (my critique group, and my daughters, and sometimes others) read it, give comments, and then I begin again. I probably do 4 or 5 complete drafts after the first one. When I was interviewing writers for the article I wrote for the Children's Writer Guide to 2002, many said they revise an entire manuscript between 7 and 15 times.

Moderator: If you have to revise, does that mean you're not a "good enough" writer? Is the goal to revise as little as possible--to eventually get it right the first time?

Patty: I used to think this was true. If I had to revise I thought I was doing something wrong. But now I go totally in the other direction, especially after talking with other writers who I consider brilliant. Everyone revises (in fact, the best writing is often revised the most often.) One thing Frannie Billingsley pointed out that really spoke to me--she said one of the things she loved about revising was the awareness that the manuscript wasn't set in stone. You can always change it--make it better. Brilliance is still possible. And isn't that what we're all working for--a brilliant novel?

Emmy: Do you create (and revise) directly on screen or do you write longhand in a notebook, the old fashioned way first for your rough draft?

Patty: I write and revise directly on screen. I need to see the way it will look in print and my thoughts fly too fast for my poor hand to keep up if I write longhand, but I know other writers begin in longhand. It just depends on what works for you.

wordsmitty1: I try not to interrupt the flow when I am writing. But then I find my MS with way too many words. Cut, cut and cut! I have found that my story becomes choppy then. Or is this just a newbie experience I am going through?

Patty: Oh, it's not just a newbie experience. I always have too many words and have to cut. I find that to avoid that choppiness, I keep reading it--aloud if possible--over and over, and work until the prose is smooth again.

Moderator: What if someone knows they're a good writer? Maybe they've had work published already. Should this person have to do major revisions in his/her work?

Patty: Jane Kurtz told me "the good is the enemy of the best." That is, if you settle for good then you may be blocking yourself from reaching to a new deeper level with your writing. And Marion Dane Bauer said something similar. Often good writers are the least able to let go of their words, she said. They can polish, but they find it difficult to make major changes. The secret is to be humble. Be willing to question everything. If you truly can't bring yourself to give up those well-crafted paragraphs, then instead of deleting them, cut and paste them into a separate file titled words I want to use someday. Tell yourself you're not throwing out those words--you're saving them to use later.

Moderator: Do you revise as you go, like some writers, or do you finish the rough draft first? What are pros and cons for doing things each way?

Patty: I usually revise as I go along. Reading the previous chapters and editing them helps me to sink into the work and to get into the voice--it prepares me for the new chapters to come. If I decide half way through I must make a major change, I have to do it before I can go on to the end. But sometimes letting my personal editor/reviser into the room before the draft is done can spell disaster for my tender creative soul. If that starts happening I shut that editor up in a closet and finish the draft before I let her out to do her editing thing. In other words, if you're too critical, you can stifle the process. You might be better off finishing the first draft before you think about what you need to change.

dickman: Do you begin a piece with an outline of where you want the writing to go? Does having an outline mean less revising to do later?

Patty: Two good questions. I've written novels without an outline, but for my last novel I did do an outline first. I think I might be unusual in that I can do it both ways. Most writers either do outlines, or don't. As to whether it means less revision--for me it did, but it took me a year to come up with the outline. So I'd say it depends on the writer.

Moderator: Before you start revising a story or article or book, do you wait awhile and let it "chill"? Why or why not?

Patty: I do. I think this is extremely important. Right after I finish a piece I think it's brilliant or I think it's absolutely terrible. After I let it sit for a week (or a month--that's even better) I can see it more objectively. It's easier to change things.

Moderator: When you revise, do you rewrite the whole manuscript each time? Or just specific parts or problems?

Patty: Most of the writers I talked to when I was writing the article for Children's Writer said they often rewrote a manuscript entirely. I do that as well. For example, I sent what I thought was the final draft of KEEPER to my agent. He had so many questions and suggestions I knew the only way to deal with the issues he brought up would be to start over. So I did--I put the old manuscript aside, called up a fresh screen and wrote the whole thing over from scratch. Now I do that with almost every manuscript I write. Sometimes I start over more than once!

Jill Esbaum: Patty, which do you find more difficult to get right? The beginning or end of your novels?

Patty: I'd say both the beginning and the end are easier than the middle. It's usually the middle that I end up revising the most. If you think of a novel as a maze, I know where I go into the maze and where I'm supposed to come out. But it's getting from the beginning to the end that's the hardest for me. Does that make sense?

Moderator: Some writers, when they read their drafts over, think they sound so terrible that they feel like quitting. So where do you START when revising when you can spot so many problems? What should a writer tackle first?

Patty: Getting some distance will likely help you look at your work with a more objective eye. Don't make any decisions about your draft until you've set it aside for at least a week--a month is better. You may also benefit a lot from letting another writer read it. Read published stories and novels--this will help you become objective, too. And of course, if you can pin down your problem--the characters sound stiff, or there's no description of place, then you know that's something you need to work on. If you're still feeling overwhelmed, start with one paragraph, or one problem. Take things one step at a time.

Moderator: Let's take the opposite case, when a writer reads over a draft and can't see anything to revise. If they'd wanted something different, they would have written the story differently in the first place!

Patty: It's difficult to have an objective perspective on your own work. Put the piece aside for a week--or even longer if you can. During this resting time don't look at it at all--not even a peek. When the time's up, sit down and read it again. You'll be surprised at how objective you can be about your work. Find another writer whose opinion you trust and ask that person to read your work. And really listen to what she or he says. As Marion Dane Bauer said, if you can't see any problems in your draft, or if you disagree with every change your readers suggest, you're probably too well defended.

Moderator: How seriously do you take the suggestions of critiquers? Everyone who reads a manuscript suggests something different to change. What should a writer do?

Patty: The readers' perspective is so important--sometimes what you meant to communicate isn't what you end up saying, and often the reader is the one who realizes it. But at the same time, you can drown in other people's advice. I don't make changes just because someone else suggests it. I get reactions from several people. If the same suggestions are voiced, then I know I need to make a change. If everyone gives me contradictory advice, I sit back and say, "What do I think?" I always go with my own instincts. Another important point I heard from Elnora Tate when I was interviewing for the article is the importance of choosing your critiquers carefully. Ask only people you trust, and people who know how to be supportive, to read your manuscript.

Connie Heckert: Once you have a first draft, Patty, how long does it take you to revise a novel?

Patty: If I have a first draft that I like--one that I think pretty much works--then revising to the polishing stage doesn't take me too long, maybe two or three months. But if, when I finish the first draft I think it doesn't work, then it might take longer to come up with a new first draft--sometimes even years, depending on how long it takes to figure out the problem.

Moderator: How finished does a piece have to be before you submit it to an editor? Isn't part of the editor's job to help you revise the manuscript?

Patty: My advice would be to submit only a polished final draft to an editor. It's true than sometimes an editor will be so committed to a manuscript she sees in a rough form that she'll be willing to work with the writer to revise it, but I think you have a lot better chance of selling something if you've sent your very best finished work. The chances are that an editor who buys your finished piece will have lots of suggestions for revision.

Moderator: How important do editors consider author revision?

Patty: Though an editor wants to see polished drafts, it's also true that the ability to listen to and understand suggestions--the ability to revise--is highly prized by editors. In my experience, it's the writers who can revise successfully who get assignments from editors.

Moderator: In what ways does an editor help with the revision process?

Patty: In my experience, and in the experience of writers and editors I talked to, editors rarely tell you specifically what to change. More often they ask questions about your characters, your setting, your plot. When my agent read KEEPER he asked me things like "How does Faith's mother influence her--what is going on in their relationship?" His question made me think about Faith and her mother, and I realized that though their interests were very different, their personalities were very much alike. They were both determined and stubborn. It was these very similarities that were causing the problem between them. When my editor read DEEPER SONG he suggested I add a subplot and asked me to take a look at what Judith's mother contributed to her upbringing. I took these general suggestions and came up with specifics. Editors throw out suggestions and you use what works best in your story.

Moderator: Do you always take the suggestions of your editor/agent?

Patty: I don't remember ever not taking the suggestion of my editor. I don't blindly make changes suggested by an editor, but when I think rationally about it, my editor always has a point. Editors know their jobs. My agent's suggestions are usually right on, too. Other writers I've talked to usually take their editors' suggestions as well. That said, I would never suggest violating your own best sense of what you want in your manuscript because an editor suggests a change. If your instinct shouts no--then don't make a change. I heard from several writers about disagreements with editors. In most cases, the writers ended up selling the manuscript elsewhere. I suspect this kind of disagreement is rare, but it does happen. Sometimes an editor doesn't have the specialized knowledge of a subject that you have--accuracy is all-important in a manuscript.

Moderator: Has an editor ever made changes without your permission? Can they do that?

Patty: Let me answer the second questions first. It depends on what rights you've sold. If you sell all rights or sign a work for hire contract, then the editor can make changes without your permission. If you keep the rights, it depends on what your contract says but usually the editor must ask you first. Once an editor changed something without asking me--and my contract required that they check with me first. I didn't know about the change until the book was out. Since the change was not something I would have objected to, I didn't say anything. Once with a work-for-hire piece the editor changed something without checking with me; the change was wrong--i.e. inaccurate information was presented. I caught it in the galleys and called the editor--he changed it back, though legally he didn't have to. For the most part I've had great experiences in this vein--editors almost always ask. But I've heard horror stories from other writers, especially with work-for-hire. So you have to be watchful.

Moderator: Have you ever been asked to change your titles?

Patty: With KEEPER OF THE LIGHT they wanted to change the title because S&S had another book on their backlist with a similar title. But no one could think of a better title. Before my book came out, the other book was remaindered, so they kept my title. However, I'm always open to help with titles--their suggestions are always better than what I think up.

Moderator: Do you have a revision checklist of any kind?

Patty: I don't have a checklist for big issues--character, plot, theme, and such. Usually if these things need revision it's either too early for the checklist stage, or too late--I've got to start completely over. But after the big things are working I look at the beginning--could I begin closer to the action? I look for scenes that move too slowly, repetitive scenes (similar things happening that I might be able to combine into one scene), unnecessary scenes, stiff or awkward language (I read it out loud to test this), using too many words to say something I could say with less or leave out all together, grammar, punctuation, spelling. I've added some other things that Pat Giff suggested. She goes through the manuscript adding details like smell, taste, sounds, colors. And when she's working in first person, she checks the beginning of every paragraph to be sure there aren't too many that begin with I.

Moderator: The following four questions ask variations of one question, Patty...

Monica Cronauer: How do you know when to quit revising, give up altogether, or keep revising until you're satisfied?

pocahontas: How do you know how much revising is enough?

dickman: Is there such a thing as too much rewriting?

Tonia: Do you ever feel like you've revised too much and lost the "voice" of your story?

Patty: These are all great questions, and they're tough to answer. I do think one can revise too much and lose the essence of a piece. I think when you find the changes you make are different, but not necessarily better, then it's time to stop. Sometimes when you don't know what else to do--that's a signal that you're done, too. Marion Bauer told me about another writer whose editor used to say to him, "This isn't better, it's just different." When you feel the changes you're making are just different--then it's time to begin submitting. Often I think writers hold onto something because they're afraid of rejection. There's a time when we just have to let our children go out and face the world in all its beauty and cruelty--that's true with our stories as well.

Moderator: What if you're revising a nonfiction piece, either article or book? Where do you start in revising nonfiction?

Patty: Know what the purpose of your book or article is, and be sure every paragraph is necessary to achieve that purpose. Don't go off on a tangent or get off the subject. Pay attention to transitions--these are the road signs your readers need to follow your argument so they need to be clear. Make sure you've used anecdotes, personal stories, the same kind of showing details, dialogue and description that fiction uses. Look for unnecessary words--don't use two words when one will do. If you've interviewed people, be sure you've used their words whenever you can. I think good nonfiction uses a lot of the same techniques that fiction uses, so revising it will be similar, too.

Moderator: Any other tips on how to revise successfully?

Patty: There are as many ways to revise as there are writers who revise. My big three are 1) put your work aside for a time--a month is best--before you try any revising. 2) If you get stuck in a draft, know that the problem very well may be back toward the beginning of the manuscript. Begin over and work through the story again. And 3) read your work aloud. There's nothing better than this for catching polishing-type problems. Better yet--have someone else read it to you.

Moderator: Are there any books on revising or editing that would be helpful? There is certainly no "one right way" to revise, and maybe our viewers would like to see some options.

Patty: I'd suggest books like SELF-EDITING FOR FICTION WRITERS: HOW TO EDIT YOURSELF INTO PRINT by Renni Browne and Dave King, and BEGINNINGS, MIDDLES & ENDS by Nancy Kress, and BEYOND STYLE: MASTERING THE FINDER POINTS OF WRITING by Gary Provost. Also WRITING FOR CHILDREN AND TEENAGERS by Lee Wyndham has a great checklist to use when you begin to revise.

Moderator: I'd also like to direct them to your revision article in the Children's Writer's Guide to 2002--it was enlightening reading! Patty, thank you so much for coming tonight sharing about this critical skill so we can all revise more successfully. Revision is such an art! We appreciate your insights, as well as those of the editors you interviewed.

Patty: Thanks for having me tonight! The questions were just great!

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks when we'll have with us Margaret Springer, who will be talking to us about "Dealing with Rejection." Rejection is simply part of the writing life, and seasoned writers get rejected along with new writers. Dealing with rejection successfully, and learning to profit from it, is a skill you need to develop if you hope to have a writing career. So come back in two weeks for an encouraging look at "Dealing with Rejection." And now, good night, everyone!

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