Jan Fields is Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan Fields:Hi Paula. Welcome to the Writer's Retreat. I hope you have a good three days here. We'll try to be gentle. I can't promise we're always normal, but we try.

Paula Morrow: Thanks! Thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome! I'm happy to know I'm in such friendly company.

Miranda: In a query letter for a poem or rhyming picture book, should a writer identify the meter used? The number of lines and stanzas? Does showing your knowledge of your own story in poetic language mean anything to agents and/or editors?

Jan Fields: If I were querying a rhyming picture book, I would definitely include a few lines from the book right in the letter...enough lines to show my meter/rhyme was fluent and my writing active to make for good illustrating. You can TELL them about meter/rhyme but really, so many folks only THINK they have meter down that I think a short passage showing that you really DO have it down is essential. Then your letter could focus on the story element.

Paula Morrow: What Jan said! :-)

Miranda: Really? Even if it's just a 300-word picture book - you'd put a couplet or two right in the query letter? What if it's a cover letter and the entire manuscript is attached (as per the publisher's submission requirements, of course)?

Jan Fields: For a cover letter, I personally would focus on just introducing the STORY in a way that made the editor eager to read it. She/he'll then make up his mind about the meter from the manuscript itself. A lot of editors actually don't read the cover until after they read the manuscript...so it's far less essential to get it right than with a query. Still, I think of covers as potentially a place to put the editor "in the mood" by introducing the piece they're about to read in the most lively kid-friendly way possible. And for a 300-word book, yeah, I'd still slip some lines in a query. All the better with a short book since you're REALLY giving a representative sample.

ColoradoKate: I have a group of five somewhat silly poems about sea creatures, with different meter, length, and so on. The longest is ten lines; the shortest is just two. Would it be worth it to submit them to magazines as a set, given that they're related? I know it's okay to submit several poems at once, but is there any chance that they would be accepted and published together? I would swear I had seen that sort of thing, on one or two pages somewhere, but I haven't been able to find any examples in magazines. Should I simply say that they are available either as a set or individually?

Paula Morrow: My instinct says that odds are slim they would be published as a group; print magazines simply have a limited amount of space available and numerous poems by numerous poets from which to choose. However, you have nothing to lose by submitting them together. As long as you type each one on a separate piece of paper, the editor has a choice of accepting one, two, three, four, or all five ... and may surprise you--and me--with a lovely spread. Or you might be able to place them as a group with an online 'zine, which doesn't have the space constraints of a paper magazine. Now if they were knock-knock jokes, on the other hand, I could certainly see five accepted and printed as a group.

kiboyd: If you like writing Haiku, Berry Blue Haiku asks for several haikus submitted at the same time. I love reading haikus, but I think I overthink them when it comes to writing one. I remember writing haikus in school years and years ago ... I wish I could find them. They might be useful.

Paula Morrow: Can't resist adding a slightly off-topic note here. Kiboyd mentioned haiku. Good suggestion! Has everyone seen the computer error messages written in haiku? http://strangeplaces.net/weirdthings/haiku.html enjoy!

mmmgood: Ms. Morrow, is there a good site that contains poetry rhythm terms and samples? I noticed your wiki link in another thread. While it addresses metrical feet, it does not provide samples. I've looked for one, but with no luck. If not a link, perhaps a book you could suggest?

KimP: I would really be interested in this also. This is an area that I really need some extra education on. I don't really write very much poetry but I belong to two critique groups and in each group a member does and it would be great to learn more about poetry from a website or book to help in critiques. What I remember from school is so lacking. Thank you Paula for so much great information all ready.

Paula Morrow: Okay, there's a secret page on my wesite. No link to it anywhere else ... I'll get around to doing that later. For now, the only way you'll find it is by putting this address in your browser: http://paulamorrow.com/paulamorrow/poetic_feet.html The first version was longer, but I deliberately cut this down to a single page to be handy as a tip sheet. Hope that's what you were looking for!

Seawater: Thank you for the link! I hadn't known about 'Spondee'

MirandaPaul: In your opinion - what makes a better poem: Perfect rhyme (even if the story may be slightly less descriptive or forced) or slant rhyme (where the story comes first)?

Paula Morrow: That's hard! To tell the truth, my personal preference is for perfect rhyme in a perfect story. Nothing like idealism, is there? Seriously, I tend to tinker with a poem over and over until it feels just right. When I'm editing poetry, I may go back and forth with the author for days or weeks (sometimes even months) until we have reached a version that pleases and satisfies us both. That may sound like more work than it's worth for a children's poem--but I believe that what we read to babies and preschoolers, and what young children read to themselves when they reach that magical "read alone" stage, will influence their literary taste for the rest of their lives. That's worth being painstaking about! That being said, I will add that slant rhyme does have a place in poetry, as long as it's used thoughtfully and deliberately.

ColoradoKate: Could someone give an example of slant rhyme, please? Is it the same as near rhyme? It sounds better, somehow...

Paula Morrow: Slant rhyme is one term for rhyme that isn't perfect but is a partial rhyme, either in the vowel sounds or in the consonants. Other terms for the same thing include, yes, "near-rhyme," as well as "approximate rhyme," "half-rhyme," "imperfect rhyme," and so on.

Paula Morrow: Slant rhyme does have its uses! Skillfully applied, it can be a pleasing or startling alternative to the predictability of perfect rhyme. Poets who have used it well include Emily Dickinson, Dylan Thomas, Elizabeth Bishop, William Butler Yeats ... respected names, all! For an example, see Percy Bysshe Shelley's poem "Adonais." In the first stanza (9 lines), he rhyme tears / years / compeers /dares. That surprising off-rhyme emphasizes a deft and significant change in the mood of the stanza.

Paula Morrow: The reason I discourage slant rhyme is that I've seen too many cases where I felt it was done out of carelessness rather than poetic sensibility. But if you use it intentionally and effectively, I commend you!

ColoradoKate: Thankee! It's the kind of rhyme, then, too, that I like to hear as a kind of internal partial rhyme, where perhaps the consonants are the same but the vowel changes in a number of words within one line. Sweet.

MirandaPaul: Do you think that meter matters from page to page / stanza to stanza? For example, in a children's picture book, if the first page has two or four lines with 10 syllables (5 iambs), is it important for the rest of the pages to match the same number of beats? Or can some be shorter - to emphasize, change-it-up, etc.?

Paula Morrow: Good question, Mirandapaul! Time was when the meter was constant throughout a narrative poem. (Just for fun, see if your library has the wonderful but out-of-print 1951 collection 100 Story Poems selected by Elinor Parker.) In today's world it's fine to vary rhythm, meter, even stanza length--as long as you do it thoughtfully and deliberately. Poetry consists of patterns, and a good poet stays aware of these patterns regardless of variations within a poem. Yes, changes can be effective in storytelling; short, crisp phrases often convey urgency, for example. However, don't drop changes into the poetry only to serve the plot; be aware of the effect on the poem as well. Watch for overall pattern and balance.

Paula Morrow: Let me comment on one other aspect of your question, Mirandapaul. Anyone who's not into fancy poetic terminology can stop reading here. Meter is measured in beats. You mention writing 10-syllable lines of 5 iambs. Five iambs are indeed 10 syllables, but they're also 5 stresses--and you could achieve those 5 stresses with 5 dactyls, which would be 15 syllables. Compare these 5-beat lines:
The quality of mercy is not strained. (iambic)
Lingering deep in the shadows, the witches are whispering. (dactylic)
Shoot, you could even have 5 beats in only 5 words: Do. Not. Touch. My. Stuff!
Rather than counting syllables, look for patterns of stress and rest in your lines.

kiboyd: Oh this is so great to know. I have been trying to get the meter exact (using the exact same # of syllables for each line) ... but find sometimes the words don't flow as nicely if I add or subtract a word. Knowing about stresses and rest is so helpful. And knowing I can do that ... yay!

mirandapaul: I just finished reading two different author's blogs in which they talked about their novels, written in verse. Is this an old trend resurfacing? What is your take on poetry and fiction - in chapter books and novels? Is this something that publishing houses - and readers - are once again enthusiastic about?

Paula Morrow: Yes and yes. This is an old trend (think Iliad; Odyssey; Beowulf; and on and on) that is evoking enthusiasm today ... as long as it's done well. I won't take the time to dig up a list of examples, but for one novel-in-verse that totally blew me away, see The Braid by Helen Frost (FSG 2006). Read it as a story. Read it as a poem. Read the notes on format the end of the book. Then read it with an eye to what I said above (below?) about patterns.

Jan Fields: I know you've seen a lot of rhyming story submissions in your professional life. Since rhyming stories are a kind of juggling act with story, rhyme and meter -- I wonder, what do you see as the place where writers drop the ball the most often? DO you see great rhyme and meter but no story. Or do you see great potential story ruined by lack of meter in the verse? I know which one I see the most...but I'm wondering if my experience runs true for others.

Paula Morrow: You're right, I've seen stories go astray in both ways you mention, but I'd have to say that more often the problem is a great story idea spoiled by unsuccessful use of poetic elements--meter and/or rhyme. Children's writers are such imaginative people that they come up with wonderful fiction, and I have a hunch that sometimes the words just come pouring out. Poetry is an art form requiring a lot of discipline in language. It's two different ways of writing, and the successful rhyming story requires both: First the heat of inspiration, then the cool control of revising and refining. I've seen too many manuscripts that appear to have been submitted after just the first step, without the second.

mmmgood: "...heat of inspiration, then the cool control of revising and refining" GREAT DESCRIPTION!

Jan Fields: I do a lot of explaining of forced rhyme, but I think it's still something folks have trouble grasping (judging by how often it pops up in rhyming stories and verse). How would you explain forced rhyme...maybe with examples. Then I can steal from you...um...reference your wisdom when I explain it to students.

Okami: As usual, Jan brings an all too common problem, and I know from my early attempts at rhyming, it isn't always dead obvious why something's not rhyming perfectly. Even after reading it over and over. I do think that lots of writers who attempt rhyme, including me, at least in part use rhyme as a way to force themselves to not get carried away with the word count.

mmmgood: I no longer think in terms of forced rhyme ... I think in terms of out-of-place thoughts. Then the forced rhyme becomes obvious. Sometimes I know I am forcing it as I write, but I write it in anyway, and mark it. Then I go back to the marked spot to spend more time on it. It can truly take a lot of time and effort to get it just right.

Paula Morrow: Sometimes a writer wrenches a sentence out of natural order in order to force the rhyme word to the end of a line: "To me fresh flowers he did give."
A writer may even add irrelevant words or lines to fill up some strictly imposed rhyme scheme.
Turpey was a little dog,
His color it was gray.
He gobbled food just like a hog.
Oh, how he liked to play.
The "hog" simile is just stuck in there to rhyme with dog, and playing really doesn't have much to do with gobbling.

Paula Morrow: One way to weed forced rhymes out of your work is to remove all the line breaks from a poem and read it as a paragraph. The clunky spots should jump out at you.
Made-up words also fall into the "forced rhyme" category, but I have more tolerance for that if the words are clever and appropriate. My brain's not quite awake yet this morning so I don't have an original example, but there's a Tom Lehrer line running through my head. It's from a sixties protest song about watching the war on TV:
While we're attacking frontally
Watch Brinkally and Huntally
Describing contrapuntally ...
He's referring, of course, to the famous Huntley-Brinkley Report. Lehrer added an extra syllable to each name and inverted the usual order. Yes, it's forced rhyme, but in this case it serves the purpose of the poem both in meaning and in effect. If you want to try this at home, be very careful and sensitive to what you're trying to accomplish in your poem overall.

Paula Morrow: Okami, You mention that poetry has tight word counts. Actually, when submitting to a publisher, you should quantify a poem in lines, not words. The reason is that you want to give the editor and/or art director an immediate sense of how many published pages a manuscript will be. Poetry always needs more space on a page than does prose. For example, a stanza might be only twenty words but be a four-line block on the page. So don't think about word count at all--just concentrate on honing your poem to a clear, sharp focus, and you'll make an editor smile.

mmmmgood: "One way to weed forced rhymes out of your work is to remove all the line breaks from a poem and read it as a paragraph. The clunky spots should jump out at you." Great advice. Thank you!

ColoradoKate: I have a tendency to rhyme words like "went" and "hint," because, well, when I say 'em, they do rhyme... Can I get away with that, or do I need to try harder?

Paula Morrow: Given the wide variety of regional dialects and inflections in the U.S.--not to mention English-speaking readers around the globe!--I think it's no longer possible to be too "purist" about accents. What I'd advise is considering the subtext; what do your want your poem to convey about the unseen speaker (there always is one). Will these idiosyncrasies strengthen or undermine the narrative voice? Will they support or distract from your theme? Perhaps a review of GBS's Pygmalion or the musical My Fair Lady would add some insight here.

Paula Morrow: Let me offer two real examples, one that works and one that doesn't.
In Phantom of the Opera, there's one spot where Sarah Brightman sings, "The phantom of the operer ..." Totally blows the moment for me.
In the classic Gary Cooper/Grace Kelly western High Noon, the theme song contains the lines:
"He made a vow while in State's Prison,
Vowed it would be my life or his'n."
Thumbs up!

seawater: I know the iambic marks a generally more upbeat rhythm. In the picture book I'm working on, my protagonist is a quiet and shy boy, who's asking the world if he should be soft and quiet (as he is) or pretend to be louder (as most children around him are). I picked the iambic for his story because I felt it suited his glowing, dreamy curiosity more, depiste knowing he isn't portraying 'upbeatness.' (He's not portraying dour-ness either ... ) The alternative is trochee: I'd read this rhythm was for more serious topics. (Is Introvercy considered a more serious topic? My idea is to express it in a less-serious tone so children are more willing to embrace their authentic selves.) Tried it but it made my protagonist sound a lot older than he is. My question then: Could we join or juxtapose a lively rhythm with my protagonist's quieter nature? What are the rhythm patterns most 'quiet' books adopt?

Paula Morrow: Yes, this is a fascinating question. Also fun to ponder, since I had never thought about poetic feet as having personality. I do think iambs are more flexible than you're giving them credit for; Shakespeare wrote his plays in iambic verse, and I wouldn't consider Macbeth or Hamlet or (gasp) Titus Andronicus to be particularly upbeat. On the other hand, "Baa, baa, black sheep" and "Once upon a midnight dreary" are both trochaic. So no, I don't think you can characterize a particular foot.

Paula Morrow: I don't write a lot of poetry myself, but when a poem comes to me, it usually arrives with the meter already there and I simply follow it. In your description of your character, I note the phrase "glowing, dreamy curiosity." That's trochaic. Does that suit your boy? Not that I think you have to pick one meter and stick with it ... see my comment about patterns in the "meter question" thread. I'm curious why you seem to be limiting yourself to two-syllable feet, iamb or trochee. You have lots more options. Normally I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt (because I've seen some serious errors in the entries), but there's a handy summary of the many choices in the entry on "poetic feet." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_footDon't worry; it won't be on the test.

seawater: Actually, this phrase 'glowing, dreamy curiosity' is how I'd described my boy in my notes, but it isn't part of the verse in the manuscript ~ teehee ... (hadn't realized it's trochaic till you pointed it out ) I still went with iambic throughout eventually. I will check the other thread on different meters and open up the options again.

seawater: And I did give anapest and dactyl a try, but as my readership target is young, (age 5 & up), I thought these two wouldn't be easy for them to read aloud. (Also, honestly, there aren't many words I could find with their rhythms and I didn't want to use the same words over and over again.)

seawater: I took most of these advice from Ann Whitford Paul's book, Writing Picture Books. Actually, it didn't occur to me to check out Wikipedia!

Jan Fields: I get a lot of ARCs because I review for a magazine and many of the poetry books for younger elementary that I've gotten have been about animals. So clearly, nonfiction poetry on animals was popular. From your time picking poetry for magazines, what would you consider some of the "hot" general subjects for poetry? Holiday? Cultural Celebrations? Back to School? Were there any that normally made you sit up and take notice just because it's a general subject you knew was always needed?

Paula Morrow: There's always a place for humor, especially if it involves age-appropriate wordplay. In fact, that key “age appropriate” will go a long way toward unlocking acceptances. For example, I’ve seen tons of “oh isn’t nature wonderful poems,” but most of them would work for any age group from preschool to AARP. A nature poem that captures a child’s sensibilities would also capture my attention--especially if it includes some kind of interaction between the child and some aspect of nature. Ditto a holiday poem: don’t just admire the pretty decorations; think like a child helping to make or hang those decorations--or take them down after the special day. As you point out, animals are perennial. Again, don't send a general doggy or koala or bandicoot poem--focus on a child's perception of some special essence of dogginess or koalaness or bandicootness. I always snatched a well-focused sports poem because they came so rarely. Friends are very important to kids, but I don’t remember seeing many friendship poems; that might be an area to explore. Think about what fascinates children you know and let your poetic imagination play in those areas.

ColoradoKate: So, include a child as a character in the poem? Or include the child-reader as "we" in the poem? Or either? Or... ?

Paula Morrow: No, you don't have to include a child as a character--although you can if you want to. You don't have to write in first person--although you can if you so choose. What you want to do is put your head in a place where you feel like a child. What do you notice about a scene? It won't be the same things you notice as an adult. How do you feel about what you're experiencing? What do you like or dislike? What's important to you? I've heard about a tot who looked out at the first snowfall and crowed, "sugar!" That image would work well in a children's poem about snow. Whether the poem includes a child or not, it's still a child's sensibilities.

Jan Fields: As maybe an example...when I was a kid I always through the dandelion flowers looked like polka dots on green cloth or gold buttons on a coat. So I wrote a poem once (that ran in Ladybug) about dandelions being like buttons. And another time (since I seem to be obsessed with dandelions) I wrote a first person poem about picking a handful and passing them out to mom, and...a bunny, I think...but keeping one for "me" because my daughter when she was tiny always wanted to keep one of any flowers she picked for herself. She couldn't quite be generous to the point of not having anything for herself...and that element colored the poem. (That one ran in Highlights High Five).

mirandapaul: In older poetry, and even children's picture books, it seems as though inverting or rearranging the syntax of a sentence altogether was acceptable. Is this still the norm - or should good picture book poets try and mimic modern conventions of speech?

mmmgood: Along those lines (ha! luv unintentional puns), it does seem as though the publishing world has become more strict about sticking to the natural flow of language. Part of me is thankful for that, even though it means more effort on the part of the poet. Are Mirandapaul and I right, regarding the changes in acceptability? Or does it just seem that way?

Paula Morrow: I think I touched on this in my answer about forced rhyme, but to go a little further ...Yes, I know what you mean; things like this gem from Mary Howitt's once-famous (now mostly forgotten) classic "The Spider and the Fly."
And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne'er take heed.

Paula Morrow: We still do invert syntax even in ordinary conversation when it serves a purpose, such as emphasis. This complaint would sound natural in a school yard today:
"He gave all his baseball cards to Jerry. To me, he gave nothing!"
Same structure (the "to" phrase moved to head of sentence) but very different effect. Syntax in poetry is malleable as long as you know what you're doing. I'd say yes, follow the conventions of speech--but don't be afraid to do something unusual if you have a good reason for it. I may be starting to sound like Johnny One-Note here, but see your poem as an entity in which all the elements fit together and then serve that poem.

mmmgood: So, are publishers more picky than they were once-upon-a-year? Or is it just a change in trend?

Paula Morrow: To answer mmmgood’s question: I don't think editors are more picky today, but I do think we live in a different world. Everything is faster and everyone is busier. Editors (like everyone else) are more overwhelmed--buried under exponentially more manuscripts than used to be submitted in "olden times," and also facing a lot more extra tasks that reduce actual editing time. So they can make obvious edits, but they may not have time to take a complex poem and help the poet massage it until it's "just right." They're also under pressure to keep an eye on the bottom line, which means attracting and retaining lots of readers. Therefore I think in many cases editors are drawn to manuscripts that will be accessible to a wide audience with minimal editing.

Paula Morrow: At the same time, young readers who are growing up on 140-character tweets and 2-minute YouTube videos are less likely to have the patience it takes to tease out the meaning in a grammatically complex poem. Straightforward syntax is less demanding and therefore more widely appealing. This is not to say we should be writing 140-character poems! Not at all! But we do need to remain aware of our readers. The trick is to offer literary quality while being relevant to today’s kids. A worthy endeavor!

Okami: How much of poetry can be instinct and raw emotion, versus technique, especially meter?

Paula Morrow: Your rough draft is often instinct and raw emotion. Your revision is technique. This takes lots of practice, but yes, it is possible to polish and perfect a poem technically without harming the emotion.

Paula Morrow: Since you express interest in understanding the theory as well as the creation of poetry, Okami, here's a book I recommend: Climb Into the Bell Tower, by Myra Cohn Livingston. It's essays on children's poetry written by a poet and teacher, with plenty of insights and examples. Enjoy!

Okami: I know it's been debated one way versus the other, but do you think there really is a link between poetry and songwriting? After all, there are many great poems that don't lend themselves to musical accompaniment.

Paula Morrow: Of course there’s a link between poetry and music! To tell the truth, I wasn’t aware of a debate. Perhaps you and I don't have the same definition of “accompaniment.” If you mean just taking a poem and adding a melody and guitar chords, that would limit the possibilities. Songs that are poems set to music don’t always sound like popular songs you hear on the radio; they utilize a range of instruments and come in the wide variety of poetry itself.

Paula Morrow: I will concede that the lyrics to a number of popular songs are not good poetry--seemingly just an outpouring of feelings without the refining that we talked about earlier. (Although some popular songs have lovely lyrics! I'm not bashing the genre.) But I’ve never seen a good poem for which suitable, appropriate music could not be written. Of course, I may be prejudiced because my mother was a composer, my son-in-law is a composer, and my daughter is a classically trained singer. Still, I know of singers and choral ensembles that pride themselves on presenting new works by contemporary composers, and many of these new works are based on actual poems--in their original form, not "reworked."