Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Researching and Writing Historical Fiction" with Patricia Curtis Pfitsch

Thursday, April 26, 2001

Moderator is Kristi Holl, the web editor for this site and author of 24 juvenile novels, plus l50+ articles for children and adults. She also taught writing for 15 years.

Patty is Patricia Curtis Pfitsch, who has two historical novels in print: KEEPER OF THE LIGHT and THE DEEPER SONG, plus a picture book: WESTWARD TO OREGON. A third historical novel, RIDING THE FLUME, will be released in Fall, 2001.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday evenings: 9-11 p.m. ATLANTIC/CANADA, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! Welcome to tonight's interview. I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for the evening and the web editor for this site. Tonight we'll be talking with Patricia Curtis Pfitsch on the topic of "Researching and Writing Historical Fiction." Patty has two historical novels in print: KEEPER OF THE LIGHT and THE DEEPER SONG, and a picture book: WESTWARD TO OREGON. A third historical novel, RIDING THE FLUME, will be released in Fall, 2001. Welcome, Patty!

Patty: Hi, everyone! It's great to be here!

Moderator: Patty, can you tell us how you got started writing in the first place?

Patty: I always tell children that I was a child who told stories. Actually, some pretty outrageous ones. It was a natural progression to start writing them down and later to try to sell them and reach a wider audience. I never really thought about doing anything except writing!

Moderator: Did you love historical fiction as a child? Any favorites you can remember?

Patty: I did love historical fiction and biography. Laura Ingalls Wilder was probably my all-time favorite. I also loved Elizabeth George Speare's Witch of Blackbird Pond and the Childhood of Famous Americans biography series. Now, though, I realize how inaccurate a lot of the information in those books was.

Moderator: For our purposes tonight, could you define what "historical" fiction is?

Patty: To my mind, historical means anything prior to when the reader was born. I'm seeing 'historical fiction' now that is set in the 1960s! But what about writers who were writing contemporary fiction in 1960? I'd say this is not historical fiction, which to me should be written about a past time, a time not in the writer's present.

Moderator: How do you get ideas for historical fiction?

Patty: Sometimes I hear of something that happened that I'd like to make into a novel. That's what happened with KEEPER OF THE LIGHT. I'd heard about a spectacular shipwreck on Lake Superior with a child on board. Of course in the final story the shipwreck doesn't happen until the end and the 'child' became the lighthouse keeper's daughter, but I started with an event. THE DEEPER SONG began with the discovery that some people thought a woman may have written part of the Bible. I wanted to write about how that might have happened. Lately I've started with a place and a time. I start researching and find events I can weave into a story. That's what happened with my new book coming out next year, RIDING THE FLUME.

renemsn: Do you see an event first or a character?

Patty: I see a character first. All good fiction has the character at the core, but I see the character in a place and time and with events attached.

Moderator: Those were fascinating stories about your books! Patty, why do you choose to write historical fiction rather than contemporary fiction?

Patty: Several reasons. First, I love the past. Writing about the past is one way I can 'live' there. Second, I live in a very rural area. Many of the problems of urban America don't reach us here, so I don't feel that I know enough about contemporary urban life to create a believable picture. Finally, I love to write adventure novels. In past time even daily life was more of an adventure than it is now. For example, I recently read of a father and his twelve year old son who went off into the wilderness in the early 18th century. They cleared the land, built a house and then the father went back for the rest of the family, leaving the son alone to take care of the homestead. The son was there alone for months before the family got back. He had all kinds of adventures. It would be quite difficult to make something like that believable in contemporary times.

caroli: Does historical fiction have to revolve around an historical event or does just setting the story in the past suffice?

Patty: Just setting the story in the past makes it historical fiction. You don't have to base it on some known historical event, but the nature of the time will often dictate what kind of story will happen.

Moderator: Has history always fascinated you, or did you decide to write historical fiction because it's popular?

Patty: History has always been one of my favorite subjects. But when I started writing it, it was not the popular genre it is today. In fact most people told me not to write it--that publishers were not buying it. But that's what I wanted to write, and when publishers decided they wanted to buy historical fiction, I already had several novels ready to sell. The lesson here is: Write what you love. Don't just think about what sells.

renemsn: Is historical fiction "easier" to sell?

Patty: Well, to the extent that many publishers want to publish it means that they're open to more novels set in historical times, but that doesn't mean they'll just buy anything. It has to be good historical fiction. :)

chris mcvaugh: How long have you been writing historical fiction?

Patty: I've been writing books for 18 years and all but my first two novels are historical fiction, so I guess that makes about 15 years of historical fiction, but it was 12 years before I sold any book.

Moderator: How do you get your characters to sound like they lived in the past and not the 21st century?

Patty: Characters in historical fiction must not sound like your neighbor kids. But they can't sound so different that your readers won't be able to identify with them. I have always read a lot of historical fiction, so I think I've developed an instinctive feel for how a writer walks that line. I've also read a lot of primary source material, journals and such. You need to be careful with written primary source material though because most people write in a more formal style than they speak. I pay attention to the slang expressions of the day and I don't use contractions as much as I would with a contemporary character.

Moderator: I know that children were treated differently a long time ago. But did they still think the way kids nowadays think?

Patty: Of course, nobody knows the answer to this for sure. Journals and biography give us a pretty good idea, though, and these show that in important ways, kids are the same in every age. They care about friendships and what will happen to them in the future. They feel conflicted about their parents and different from their peers. There were differences, though. Kids in the past were not as likely to speak out against their elders as kids are today. There's a certain respect, or at least the appearance of respect, in the way kids acted towards adults. You have to take the differences into consideration. You can't just transplant a 21st century child into the 18th century.

Howard: Ms. Pfitsch, please address the proper use of real names and their relation to events, regarding liabilities. Thank you.

Patty: Well, if you're including famous characters in your work you don't have as much of a problem because 'public figures' can be written about more freely without liabilities. If you're using a real person who's a private citizen there's more risk. I would be very careful in using real names unless I had permission and support from the person or their heirs.

MBVoelker: How do you deal with historical attitudes and conventions that are not accepted or "politically correct" today?

Patty: That's a REAL problem because to be accurate you have to portray people the way they really were. Sometimes that means letting them say things that were pretty horrible. The best example is the way whites treated Native Americans. One way would be to have characters who do the "politically correct" thing as well as characters who are not "politically correct," so readers have something to compare characters' actions with. I'm afraid I'm not being very clear. In the LITTLE HOUSE books, Ma had a very racist attitude towards Native Americans, but the reader can compare her racist words to Pa's more accepting attitude. Laura's attitude was better still. And yet, these books are still considered very unacceptable by many Native people. It's really a tough issue and there's not an easy solution.

Moderator: What do you do if your characters speak in a different language?

Patty: Historical fiction and contemporary fiction can use the same technique in this regard. The best way to handle it, in my opinion, is to use mostly standard English and mix a foreign word in here and there to give the flavor of the character's speech. Do this even if the story actually takes place in another country and the characters are all speaking another language. That is, you're writing in English, so we readers 'pretend' that English is the other language--French, for instance--but you'll still want to include some French words to remind us.

Diana Helmer: On the subject of real people making cameo appearances in historical fiction, do you have any guidelines for creating dialog for these characters?

Patty: A few years ago it was considered bad form to create dialogue for real people because teachers and students became confused about what was fiction and what was nonfiction. But I've noticed that lately things are changing a bit, and novels are coming out with real people and created dialogue. I'd say it's possible, but you'd want to retain the flavor of the real person's speech if you can. Be sure to explain what you've done in a forward or afterward. Be careful about this, though. It's definitely tricky.

Moderator: Any tips on including dialect? It's hard to write too.

Patty: Dialect can be handled like another language. Just a word in dialect here or there to give the suggestion. Like Y'all know I'm not really southern, but I can give y'all the idea that I have a southern accent. Don't write it all in dialect. Readers might not be able to understand it.

Moderator: How much history can I make up? Can I invent a hurricane where they are prone to happen anyway?

Patty: The short answer is yes. If hurricanes are prone to happen, you can put one in. It's fiction, after all. But the writer has the responsibility to be accurate. So when my readers ask if my stories really happened, I tell them that everything could have happened, but I put the events together the way they happen in my books. You can have a hurricane on the coast, but not in Kansas. You can make up a shipwreck, but you can't have helicopters coming to the rescue unless helicopters were invented in the time you're writing about. :)

Moderator: These next two go together...

Oak Tree: Can you have a fictional town in New Jersey and make up facts about it?

Mom of 3: Do you put your stories in real places, or make up your own towns, cities, etc..?

Patty: You can make up streets, etc., in a real town. You can add buildings, and you can make up towns in a real state. You can change the geography to an extent as I did in KEEPER. However, you should mention these changes in a forward if that's possible. I tend to make up towns because I'm nervous about using real towns. I'm so concerned with accuracy, but sometimes it's unavoidable. So then, I'd say just do it!

Nell: Suppose your story is set in a place you've never been. How do you come up with accurate natural details like the way the atmosphere looks, the way the wind feels -- natural details that give the story a feeling that you are there and make it regionally correct?

Patty: For me, it's very important to visit the place where my books take place; even though the time is different, there's much that's the same. DEEPER SONG takes place in the Middle East. I couldn't visit there but I found that the same high desert environment exists in Utah. So I went there, instead. As you say, you need to really KNOW what a place is like to create a believable setting. But if you absolutely can't go either to the place itself or anyplace similar, then you'll have to make do with reading books about the place, looking at photos, movies, paintings, etc. Actually, you can and should use those methods too, as well as visiting. Anything that will help you bring the setting alive is what you should do.

renemsn: Some books have a map showing actual towns and fictional places added; is this a good way?

Patty: Yes, that would work well I think. A map would help the reader visualize how things fit.

Richput: I've had difficulty with historical fiction set in the 800's with regard to what language was spoken. I know in Great Britain it is referred to Old English now, but I'm sure that it wasn't 'old' back then. And French was not referred to as French. How do you handle situations like that?

Patty: I find out what the people called the language or the place, and call it what they did. You can use a prologue to explain the differences between our terms and theirs.

ClaraRose: What periods of history are editors more interested in? And is there overkill for a particular time period?

Patty: Well, fortunately or unfortunately, the time periods most publishers are interested in are the ones studied in the school curriculum, especially the middle and elementary school curriculum: the middle ages, the Civil War, the Revolutionary War. I'm not sure you can actually get 'overkill' on these time periods, but I've seen a LOT of books on the Civil War recently. So perhaps if you have a choice, you might want to think about another time period so you're not competing with so many other possibilities.

poni: Is there a market for historical fiction picture books for older readers 8 to 12?

Patty: Good question. The market for picture books for older readers in general is really opening up, I think. So because of that, there's more need for historical fiction picture books for older readers, too. I think this is just beginning to occur now, so my guess is that we'll be seeing more of them in the next few years.

Moderator: The research seems so daunting. How do you begin?

Patty: I love to research, and I love libraries, so I usually start by visiting the historical society library in Madison, Wisconsin. I comb the card catalog for books on the time/place I'm interested in and just start reading. I let my whims and interests guide me and I spend a lot of time reading about events of the time: what was happening in politics, entertainment, etc. and daily life. I look in bibliographies of the books I'm reading for more books, and it goes on from there.

MBVoelker: How can you find out nuts and bolts things like how far you can travel in a day under various circumstances, what foods would be on your plate regularly, what clothing is worn, etc.?

Patty: There are many books on daily life of almost every time period--they have lots of that information. I'm especially lucky to have a neighbor who's a horse farmer and has personal experience with things like how far a horse can travel in a day, how to tie up a carriage, things like that. So I can just ask him some things. My experience is that if you persist, you can find books and other information about the daily life of every age, even ancient ones. Ask the reference librarian at your local library. There are tons of illustrated books on costume and daily life of almost every era and every country. Try to find experts in the time period. They would be able to give you sources. Go to the place where your story happens and visit the local museum. Ask the curator about information on daily life of the years you're interested in. But if you absolutely can't find anything you could look at books about times just before and just after the one you're writing about and note what changes and what is the same. These can give you clues to your time period. If you can find things on the same time period in another country, that also might help.

Moderator: One viewer's father translated a diary of a woman who is no longer alive; how can she make the most of it in her research?

Patty: You might be able to use this woman's life as the basis of a novel. Assuming you can get permission from the woman's heirs, you might even be able to use the diary itself--weaving quotes into a story. Or you can use the feelings and conflicts expressed in the diary as the jumping off point for a novel. The main character could be someone like the woman who wrote the diary, but who had different experiences.

menucha: Many books I need for research are in a university library, about three hours from where I live. Is there any way to get my hands on those books?

Patty: Well, I live an hour from any research library and two and a half hours from a good one. I often plan a day trip and just drive there. But you can also get books on interlibrary loan. Ask your librarian about borrowing books through that service. I've also recently heard that some libraries have a system whereby you can download the text of certain reference books to your computer; you can use the text for a certain length of time and then it disappears from your computer! You might ask about that as well.

Anne: I would like to know if the Vietnam era is popular (or even okay) to write about for either older middle-graders (10 and up) or YA.

Patty: Definitely the Vietnam era is okay to write about for middle grade or YA or younger readers, too, depending on how it's handled. Eve Bunting's beautiful picture book THE WALL is about a boy and his father finding the grandfather's name on the Vietnam War memorial. It's not historical fiction, however. I'm not familiar with a lot of books about that time. But that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to write a book set then. In fact, it might be a very good time to explore since not too many others have done so.

Nancy: I would love to research ghosts of an old hotel that is being renovated in New Castle NH (The Wentworth By The Sea), but have no idea where to begin.

Patty: If this is an actual legend, then I would try to visit the hotel and ask. It sounds like a fun place to visit--and research trips are deductible! If you can't visit, then calling there might be possible. If not the hotel, then try the local historical society or the local library or newspaper office or even the Chamber of Commerce. What you're looking for would be people familiar with the local legend. If all this fails you might try looking for books on ghosts and unusual phenomena in the region. For example, there are a number of books about ghosts in Wisconsin with names like "Haunted Wisconsin" and such. Ask your librarian for help here. In fact, if you write historical fiction, you should be making friends with your reference librarians. Ask for help, being as specific as possible. You'll be amazed at what's out there!

Eric: How about a story set in Europe during WWII? Would that era still be of interest in today's market? Thank you.

Patty: Oh absolutely. The World Wars are very big, both in the schools and in the general public!

Mom of 3: What about interviewing people who have lived in the location you are writing about? Would this be helpful, or biased?

Patty: I think it would be helpful. It will, of course, be biased, too, but if you're aware of the bias you can use it because the perspectives of the people will be part of the flavor of the times and possibly important in the story as well.

poni: When you submit a historical fiction ms. to an editor, do you need to also submit all your notes and facts that back up your story?

Patty: If you're submitting a book you don't usually submit the research, depending on the publisher. Educational publishers may want to see some of your sources up front. My editor doesn't ask for sources, but sometimes he'll question a fact or a premise and I need to show the source to reassure him. Some magazines want to actually see the source material. But you should always keep careful track of where you got your information because it's likely you'll need it in the future.

ClaraRose: How much value are Internet sources (in the eyes of editors)? Can you also talk about accuracy?

Patty: There is more and more information available on the Internet, and more of it is accurate nowadays. There's an enormous amount of very excellent source material for some periods. The Civil War and the Revolutionary War are two big ones. I think editors would recognize these Internet sites as useful. AMERICAN MEMORY is a great source of primary source material from the Library of Congress. And history.org is a good place to start when looking for Internet historical material. Actually, you can go to my web page www.pfitsch.com and click on the page I set up to teach a web searching class this spring. It lists a lot of my favorite sources. There's a very good site you should go to which talks about accuracy of Internet sites because they're not all accurate. This site tells you how you can judge the accuracy of a site, which you should do with your print sources as well.

Making sure your print sources are accurate is just as important as checking your Internet sources, especially for someone like me, whose books are often used in schools. I try to read books written both years ago and recently. I look at first hand accounts if they're available. I try to find the "off beat" perspective. For my research for FLUME, I read books by people sympathetic to the loggers, and books by environmentalists. I try to find out the "real" history and not just the establishment line. I always remember that every book, fiction or nonfiction, has a bias. Sometimes it's a conscious bias and sometimes it's unconscious. But I think if you're willing to read a LOT of material and look for the bias, you can come up with something that's pretty accurate.

Moderator: Thanks for that extra information from your website! Patty, how long do you spend researching a book?

Patty: This depends on how much I already know about the period and the events I'm writing about, as well as how much material is out there and how difficult the access. I researched three years before I began writing THE DEEPER SONG. KEEPER and my new book RIDING THE FLUME took two years. I've been researching a year for my new novel set in Revolutionary War times but I've just begun writing. I'll go back and do more research before I'm done.

Nell: When you work on such a huge project and are only on the research stage, do you spend all your 'writing' time doing research, i.e. do you finish the research before you begin writing the story?

Patty: You must think of the research time as writing time. I must, because if I don't, I start feeling guilty that I'm not writing. I finish a good part of the research before I begin writing, but then I also research during the writing stage, and even when I'm in the editorial stage working on edits with my editor.

Moderator: Do you outline everything thoroughly before writing?

Patty: I never used to outline before I began. I'd have a general idea of the plot and the ending. Some scenes I could 'see' and I'd start in. With FLUME I did a pretty detailed synopsis before I began, and I'm working that way with my new book, too. I can't decide which way I like better. It's more magical without an outline and I might be more open to changes which would make the story better, but with an outline/synopsis I have a better idea that the book will hang together before I write the whole thing, and that's comforting. :)

Moderator: Do you include the historical details in your rough draft, or just write the story and put in the details during revisions? (There's so MUCH to remember!)

Patty: I try to immerse myself in the period before I begin writing. When I'm successful the details just come. They're there in my mind when I need them. So I include as much as possible from the very start. If you really know a period it's not so much remembering as just 'showing' in the same way you'd show something in contemporary life. But I also go back and forth between writing and research, getting information when I need it, checking facts, making sure that what I want to include is really accurate.

Moderator: Do you let someone (like a professor or historian) read your manuscript for accuracy before sending it to a publisher?

Patty: Absolutely! I use every possible means to be sure my story is as accurate as it can be. Even though the publisher will probably fact check the piece as well, it's essential--and professional--to be sure you've already done the checking.

Moderator: Even if it's fiction, do teachers and kids think your historical books are factual and that all the incidents really happened?

Patty: Kids certainly do and sometimes even some teachers have trouble telling the difference between history and historical fiction. That's why a forward is often important--to explain what's history and what's fiction. Also, some teachers take the time to study the period with their classes and use historical fiction only to supplement a larger look at a time. But many teachers often use your books to show their students what it was like in a particular time. That's why it's so very important that we historical fiction writers do the best we can to be as accurate as possible.

vmk: I'm working on a biography. I've done a lot of research to make sure of my facts but because I'm using dialogue to move the action, I've been advised to classify it as historical fiction. Is that what you'd advise too?

Patty: I think that's what I'd advise you to do, as well. However, bookstores and libraries sometimes don't really use the publisher's guidelines about where to shelve a book. Sometimes historical fiction gets shelved with biography and sometimes biography gets shelved with fiction!

katonah: I write fiction for children based on Native American culture and traditions, but then weave it into a story. Is this considered historical fiction?

Patty: If you're writing about the past and Native American traditions in the past, then it's historical fiction in my opinion. If you're writing about Native traditions in the present, then it's contemporary.

poni: Is historical fiction a harder genre for a beginner to take on compared with something contemporary?

Patty: I think it is, for several reasons. We know best our contemporary culture so that makes it easier to bring alive. It takes a lot of research and an understanding of the genre to write believable historical fiction. But if the story you're passionate about is historical, then that's the one you should be writing!

Moderator: I'm sorry to have to stop, but we're out of time tonight. I just want to thank Patty for coming tonight and sharing so much helpful information with our viewers. Thank you for answering the large number of chatter questions that were submitted earlier in the week and working them into your talk tonight. I know they appreciated it.

Patty: Thanks for a great evening!

Moderator: Do come back here in two weeks on May l0 when we'll talk with Linda Skeers (a writer and a children's librarian) on the subject of "Children's Books from a Librarian's Perspective." What kinds of books are librarians looking for to fill the gaps in their collection? What do kids REALLY read? What DON'T they like? How do librarians choose which books to buy, and how can you write that particular type of book? Also, SPECIAL NOTE: If you have a question or want advice from Linda about a particular idea you're working on, email me at: WebEditor@institutechildrenslit.com by May 7, and I will forward your questions to Linda for help with your particular project. Until then, good night, everyone!

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