Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Plotting For Publication" with Patricia Hermes

Thursday, November 4, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and 50+ articles for youth and adults, as well as teaching writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Patricia is Patricia Hermes author of over thirty books for children and young adults, published by Harcourt Brace, Scholastic, Avon and others. Her new series for Scholastic for the year 2000 is called My America, and a new Avon middle grade book for next year is tentatively entitled Sweet By and By.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interview are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for tonight's interview and the web editor of this web site. I'm very pleased to welcome Patricia Hermes tonight. She was originally scheduled to be with us in September, and I know you'll be very pleased she could make it tonight. I've asked Pat to discuss "Plotting for Publication" because award-winning Patricia Hermes knows how to plot winning fiction! Patricia Hermes is the author of over thirty books for children and young adults, published by Harcourt Brace, Scholastic, Avon and others. Her new series for Scholastic for the year 2000 is called My America, and a new Avon middle grade book for next year is tentatively entitled Sweet By and By. Pat is a frequent speaker at schools and conferences around the country, and we're so glad you could join us tonight, Pat!

Patricia: Hi, Kristi and everyone! It's good to be here.

MODERATOR: First of all, Pat, did you grow up wanting to be a writer?

Patricia: Well, I don't know that I wanted to BE a writer. Just knew that I always wrote. I wrote for myself, notes and journals. But I never thought of writing for anyone else -- like all these people out there!

MODERATOR: Do you have children? If so, do they influence your writing?

Patricia: Yes, I have five children, all grown now. And though I am probably (well definitely) prejudiced -- they are the best kids in the world. And yes, they very much influence my writing.

SaraJ: How do they influence it?

Patricia: By giving me ideas. Lots and lots of ideas.

MODERATOR: What is your favorite kind of writing?

Patricia: Hmmm. Hard to say. I like so many different things. But right now, I love writing novels for middle and younger kids

MODERATOR: Do you write for one age group, or many?

Patricia: I write for many different age groups. I think the reason is this: When my children were little, I wrote for little kids; when they got bigger, I wrote for bigger kids and now that they are all grown, I have grandchildren, and I find myself writing for them.

Maudy: How did you get started writing?

Patricia: I had a funny start. As I said before, I have always written just for myself. But then one day, I was about to go back to teaching. My youngest child was in school, and I decided: No way! Teaching is hard work. It's a lot like raising kids. So, what I had always wanted to do was write, and I thought, well, why not try writing for a career? And I began by taking writing courses and sending things out.

Willie Willow Tree: Where do your ideas come from? How do you know it is a good one?

Patricia: Oh, wow! That is a double question. So let me answer first about where ideas come from. Ideas, for me, are everywhere. They are in the most simple things -- look out the window in the morning. See a bird, a crow. Listen to things kids say . . . Let me give you a specific example from one of my own books. It's true though it sounds absurd. One day, my daughter, Jennifer came home from school and told me about a kid in her class. And she said, "Mom, guess what? Tommy was eating flies today! He took dead flies off the windowsill, and on a dare, he was eating them!" (Not only that, but he ate the teacher's goldfish!) Well! There was an idea! I could picture what kind of kid would do this. I figured he was a showoff, insecure, but maybe a pretty good kid. So what was the reason he was doing this? I didn't know, but I knew I would find out -- in my head, that is. So I created a character. I named him Kevin Corbett. And I wrote a book. It is called Kevin Corbett Eats Flies! And it came because of something I heard, a real life incident.

Willie Willow Tree: Did you take this writing course?

Patricia: No, I didn't. But I truly wish I had. I did take other courses, though. And I still take writing courses.

Willie Willow Tree: Do you still write for yourself or more for a publisher?

Patricia: Oh, no. I don't write just for myself anymore. Well, that's not true. I mean I don't JUST write for myself. Now, I write to put to put food on the table, things like that. It is very much a career for me now.

DebO: How long did it take from when you decided to make writing your career and to when your first piece was published?

Patricia: I had a funky thing happen. And a very good thing. First, I took a writing course at the New School in NY. Our class assignment was to write something suitable for the OpEd page of the NY Times. Now, this is a tough place to get published, because zillions of people submit things to them. But. . . I was new at this, did not know better -- and I sent them the essay I wrote for an assignment -- sent it to the Times. And . . . much to my amazement, they published it!

MODERATOR: Great story!

Sasquatch: Tell us about the first time you sold a book. How did you do it?

Patricia: Again, back to the NY Times. (And I admit MUCH luck here.) An editor at Harcourt Brace, who had read my piece in the Times on her way to work, liked it so much that she wrote to me. She asked: did I have anything else I had written that she might see? Well! Did I ever. And so, I sent along some things I had been working on. And -- yes! One of them clicked with her. And from that, came my first book.

MODERATOR: Before we turn to the subject for the evening (plotting), can you tell us what you're working on now?

Patricia: Right now, I am doing the hard stuff -- and I tell my students how hard it is -- but how VITAL and it is revising. I am revising two novels for two different publishers, and working on a new historical novel for a third publisher. One novel is really giving me fits, because I have no idea how do fix it. But it will come together, I am sure. Somehow!

MODERATOR: Wow! Would you give us your definition of "plot"?

Patricia: To that, I can only reply with your word: WOW! I can't do it in one sentence, but let me try with what I use for myself. First, one needs a main character in any story. That character must have a goal and it must be an important, even vital goal. Then, that character must have obstacles thrown in her way, things that make it difficult to acheive that goal. And in the end that main character should be -- must be -- heroic. No, I do not at all mean that he or she should get that goal necessarily. Sometimes, the goal cannot be achieved. But there should be a kind of heroics INSIDE the main character, some change. So that in the end, there is a fine, strong resolution.

byann: What's the difference between an idea and a plot?

Patricia: Hmmm. Let me see. There are lots of ideas. But plots have those elements I just mentioned. Maybe I can again use an example to illustrate wht I mean. Suppose a child wants a pony. (You have probably seen this plot yourself many times.) And then, the child's parents get her a pony. Well, where is the story here? There is none. It's an incident.

Maudy: How do you go about plotting the story once you have the idea?

Patricia: Oh, Maudy, if I had the answer to that in one sentence, I would be a zillionaire. But let me try to elaborate a bit. First, after the idea, you need the character, because character and plot go together. So you get that character, and that character SPEAKS to you. Now, I don't mean to be mystical or anything like that. But if you think about your character, live with her, dream about her, that character will tell you what the problems are, what she wants, what her personality problems are that will cause conflict. So what I think I am saying is simply that there is no formula, at least not for me. But living with the characters is the best way to know what they want.

byann: So a plot is an idea that encounters obstacles as it reaches a goal?

Patricia: No. A lot is what I said before -- more than an idea. It is a character. Again, let me go back to my silly example of the pony. A child wants a pony. She really, really wants a pony. It's all right to begin this way. Now ask yourself: Why does she want this pony? No, even more, why does she NEED this pony? Now, perhaps she lives in the 1800's out in the middle of Nebraska. She needs the pony to get to town and back frequently. She needs it because her mama is ill, and it's the only way this kid can reach town and get help when Mam becomes ill. So do you see what I mean about an important reason? Just wanting something and then getting it -- is not enoguh. WHY does she want it? Here is another way of looking at plot. Ask yourself: what will happen if your main character does NOT get what she wants? If nothing much will happen, then there is a thin or nonexistent plot. Does this help, some?

JENNASTU: Why can't you just tell a nice, pleasant story? Why does there have to be a conflict?

Patricia: Well, I guess the reason is that no one will read it! I often ask students this: Do you know the story of Romeo and Juliet? Well suppose they met, fell in love. And they got married and lived happily ever after? Would that be a story?

Verada: Do you make extensive character charts before you begin a story?

Patricia: Character charts? No, I don't at all. Now, I am not saying that YOU should not do it. If it works for you, by all means do it. But I find that sometimes one can get carried away with doing all these extensive things, charts, notebooks, lists, webbing -- and then one never writes! (At least, then I never write.) So I sort of wing it. I find that the characters tell me what to do as I go along . . . and forgive me if that sounds mystical, as I said before. I don't at all meant it to. But it seems real. The characters DO take over. If you let them.

JENNASTU: Does your main character have to be likable?

Patricia: Does the main character have to be likable? Yes. But I think she should have flaws, be a real person, not a perfect person.

DebO: Could you describe the process you use once you've got the bare bones figured out to start a story?

Patricia: Yes. And it's a very individual thing. I have many friends who are authors and we each do it differently. But I will tell what I do. I almost always, always, start with dialogue. I sort of 'hear' what the character is saying. Sometimes, it's even a surprise to me. For example, I have been working on a novel, and the first line has been changed again and again. Because I can't quite "get" what it is I want her to say. But it's almost always dialogue.

MODERATOR: For a workable plot, is it necessary to outline, or can you just start writing and see what develops?

Patricia: OUTLINE! NEVER. However, I can imagine Lee Wyndham, whose books I so much admire, and who has written a fine book on writing for children and teens, I can picture her spinning in her grave (to coin a ciche) because she firmly advises outlining. I can't outline. So people NEED to outline. If I outline first, I KILL the story. In fact, I can't even write a decent book proposal for that reason.

Verada: About how many drafts do you write before submitting a book manuscript?

Patricia: About ten is a rough estimate.

Mary: If you don't outline, how do you organize your thoughts when your writing a book?

Patricia: I do outline if I am doing nonfiction. But with fiction, I have a feel for where it is going because of what I said before about knowing what the character wants. If I know her goal and her obstacles and her personality, then I can let the character guide me. Someone has said: if the author isn't surprised, then the reader won't be either. I think that's a good idea to keep in mind.

Sasquatch: Who writes your book proposals if you don't?

Patricia: One my my editors has said that my book proposals are the biggest fiction I ever write! Meaning, that we just get a general idea, and then go from there. But I must say, that I can sort of 'get away' with that by now, because I have established myself somewhat. I don't think you can get away with that with a first book.

byann: How is the author surprised?

Patricia: Let me try to put it better. I know you all have read a book, turned the page, and gasped with surprise, fear, dismay, something. You were surprised by something that had happened. An example (and this is not from my own writing): one day, not too long ago, I was on a plane with my daughter. We had brought a bunch of books for reading on the flight. Suddenly, next to me, she gasped! I turned to her. Tears were running down her face. She was reading a wonderful book about a dog sled race and suddenly, the author write about the dog: And his heart burst! In other words, the dog died! My daughter was aghast. So was I. It was a wonderful, awful moment. Who would have expected it? But it worked, in that book. Maybe that is what I mean by the author being surprised and having something jump into her/his head. And it just makes for a good story.

Verada: Without an outline, do you ever find yourself stumped for an ending?

Patricia: No. Let's go back to that part about plotting and character. If you know what the character wants or needs, then you know where the story is going.

SaraJ: What exactly is a subplot, and can you give an example?

Patricia: No. I'm, really bad at that. That is, I think I write them pretty well. But they sort of happen. Again let me give you an example. In one of my books, called You Shouldn't Have to Say Goodbye the mother is ill and is dying. The girl, her daughter Sarah, wants her mother to live. That is what she wants more than anything in the world. Well, that is out of her hands, right? But other things are going on in Sarah's life, just as in real life. We live with tragic moments, with worry and fear at times, yet the rest of life goes on. So Sarah has a gymnastics meet that is very important to her That's a part of a subplot. She has a best friend, and that too, is important to her. And her best friend has a family problem and all these things are, I guess, subplots. But I don't plan them. They happen as I write.

VMK: I'm having trouble with the beginning of my book. It just won't start. I have a great middle and end, but I just can't get it started. It is historical fiction. What exactly goes into the beginning of the plot?

Patricia: That's an interesting question. How the heck did you get to the middle if you had no beginning? But maybe the book starts at the midle. Maybe you are thinking of it backwards or something. If you have a great middle--why not let that be the beginning, hmmmm?

pmjv: Since you prefer not to outline, etc., do you often have a problem with word count? And do you ever read what you've written and find that the plot is weak?

Patricia: I'm not sure how word count and outline go together. If you want to rephase that, ask it again. But about reading it after it's written and finding weaknesses -- yes! That happens to me all the time. It's why I have to revise and rewrite about ten times.

MODERATOR: Along the lines of the last part of her question... Sometimes rejection slips will give "shallow plot" or "predictable plot" as the reason for rejection; what do those terms mean?

Patricia: Well, let's start with predictable. Sometimes I get that from a new writer -- a story that starts with a kid with her little brother, for instance, and they are starting out on a day trip to the mountain. And in flashback or in her head, the author tells me how this kid is scared of thunder storms. Well, I KNOW, I mean, I KNOW that there is going to be a thunderstorm on the moutnain that day. That is weak and predicatble. Maybe that's what I meant before about how the author must be surprised. Again, how about an example from one of my own books? And let me stress here, that I am not talking about my own books because they are the best books I know, but because they are the books I know best. So I was writing a book called Mama, Let's Dance. It was a story about a child whose mother had abandoned her, literally. She and her older brother were left to fend for themselves, and to care for her little sister, Callie. Well, I knew that my main character would have to deal with her feelings of anger and rage and loneliness about the mother abandoning them. But then, suddenly, into my writing, I found myself -- and I did NOT plan this -- writing about the little sister's death. She died! I killed her off. And then I had a whole new story. Not only did she have to deal with her rage at mother for abandoning her -- but if mother had stayed, then little Callie would have lived. So do you see what I mean about how plot and character and subplot all sort of flows together?

MODERATOR: Here's the rephrasing of that earlier question...

pmjv: I mean, if you are writing for an assignment that asks for 800 words and the character you are following gets involved in so many other things (subplots), do you ever find that you've exceeded your word count by letting the character resolve his/her own problems?

Patricia: Okay. I get your point now. Yes. That happens. But if it happens, then I suggest you put that character and story aside for another time when you can have a more elaborate plot. Some characters have a lot to say! They can't say it in 800 words so you have to find a character who is more simple, and perhaps not so chatty.

Nessa: We were informed that chapters should be a specific length for a chapter book and each chapter should be carefully plotted. If you do not do this, do you have trouble with the word count?

Patricia: No. At least, I don't. You can always cut, you know. It's harder to pad a story. So I always overwrite. And then cut back.

pmjv: You make it sound like magic, or automatic writing induced by a channeled spirit. How can we learn these things?

Patricia: Your questions make me laugh out loud -- but NOT because it is silly. I think I am laughing because it DOES sound that way, doesn't it? But again, it is NOT magic. What is magical is that if you allow yourself to just go with it, something happens. Now, a big word of warning here: writing from your gut or your heart or whatever it is I am talking about here, is NOT the same as just dumping your guts onto the page. You can do that in your journal, but that is NOT literature. You msut have a sort of a plan, a plot and character in mind and then allow yourself to do the rest, to let it out. Again, an example... Run your hand along the edge of a table. One one side, if you go too far over, you will fall off into the guts, the depths. But if your hand goes too far on the other side of the edge of the table, then you are up on top of the table -- too flat and hard, too intellectual. Does that make sense? So what the trick is in writing is to walk that fine line -- right along the edge. Don't get too analytical, too intellectual and don't get too emotional, too caught up it in the guts.

MODERATOR: Great analogy!

Nessa: How did you find "your voice," that technique that makes you original? Did it take a while?

Patricia: Oh, I LOVE this question. Do you know what 'voice' is? Voice is simply YOU; it is who you are. No one else has your precise voice. So when students ask me about how to get a voice -- I simply say that you don't "GET" one. You already HAVE one. It is who you are. And if I might digress a moment, that is why it is sooooo important (that wasn't a typos, I meant to write soooo!) that you write in a simple manner. Don't be fussy. Don't be fancy. Be YOU. Don't adopt a literary voice. Just write from yourself and it will be good writing. I guarantee.

byann: Do you write until you run out of ideas, leave and then come back?

Patricia: No, I write until my neck hurts. And then I come back.

Verada: With all the revision, how long does it take you to write a book?

Patricia: I guess the answer to that is: what book? Most books take me anywhere from three months to several years. Small books, like the chapter books I have done for Scholastic, they take about three to four to six moths. Middle grade novels take a year or so, sometimes nine months. And I am working now on a book that has taken me years.

MODERATOR: Editors and teachers tell us to "keep the plot moving forward." How do you do this?

Patricia: Oh, another good question! You do this by causing trouble for your reader. You know how teachers are always telling kids: Don't be a troublemaker. Well, as an author you MUST be a trouble maker. Make trouble for your reader, for your main character. One of my favorite editors told me once that a book should build up and up and up, and each 'up' should make the goal more and more unattainable until the character reaches that 'black' moment, and there must be a settlement, a resolution. Now sometimes, that resolution means that the character cannot get what she wants. But she must get something else. So when Callie dies, Marybell cannot get her back. But she must make peace with herslf, with her mama. And so on. And sometimes, that can be a resolution. In fact, it's a lot like life, is it not?

MODERATOR: You've written many single titles and more than one series. Is plotting different for a series?

Patricia: No, I don't think it's different for a series. But it's harder in some ways. Harder because you must keep juggling all that stuff that you started with and keep track of all the personalities and siblings, etc.

byann: Is writing a sideline? How do you support your writing?

Patricia: I write, edit, speak, lecture, go to schools. All of this IS my writing business. It's hard to make it as a writer. But I think you can do it if you do other things besides.

Shoeless: Do you heavily research your historical fiction?

Patricia: Yes! When I did the book on Nebraska last year, I actually went to Nebraska (in the middle of an ice storm) not just to visit libraries and the sites and such -- but to get a feel for the place. I think it's very hard to write about a place I have never seen. So I work hard on research.

byann: Has an editor ever asked you to change your plot?

Patricia: Yes!

SaraJ: Do you always do what they ask?

Patricia: No! Most of the time, I think editors are pretty smart and pretty good at what they do. But there are times when I think editors have to feel they are justifying their pay. (Don't tell them I said so.) And so they pick up stupid little things they want changed and sometimes, then they change the whole story. I dig in my feet at that point. For example, in the Goodbye book, there is a very important scene that takes place on a Sunday morning and it had to be Sunday, because that was vital. My editor wanted that changed. She said: It's Sunday morning! They should go to church. And if they don't, then why does Sarah pray that her mother gets better? Well! I pray, but I don't go to church, at least, not all the time. So I dug in my heels and said, nope. I am not changing this scene. So you can see that sometimes they change things just to change them. Or to suit THEIR beliefs. But you have to remember: It's YOUR story.

byann: Have you ever had rejections?

Patricia: Yes. More than one!

Ducky: Doesn't all that speaking, lecturing etc. take away for your writing?

Patricia: Well, not really. You see, writing is a very solitary business. You can't write a book by committee. You must write it in a lonely, solitary way. So speaking is sometimes a good way of getting some balance into my life.

author2b: How much time a day do you spend writing? I find that researching publishers takes alot of time I could be writing.

Patricia: Yes. It does. But remember, writing is a BUSINESS. And you must learn the business as well as learn the craft of writing. You wouldn't say to a salesman, just have a good product; forget your buyer, would you? You need to do both ends of your business. And researching who is buying what is time well spent.

MODERATOR: Your books have won children's choice awards, where the children themselves choose their favorite book each year. Are there certain elements in award-winning plots?

Patricia: I wish I knew. I really don't. Some of my books are very funny -- and those have won children's choice awards. But my book that won the most CC awards was the saddest one You Shouldn't Have to Say Goodbye. So I truly don't know. But perhaps one element is that the kid should be able to identify with the characters in the book. And that means they shouldn't be too good! Kids love to read about bad kids.

bernie: Do you usually write more than one book at any given time? How do you work that out?

Patricia: I have trouble writing more than one book at a time. It seems to me that the characters need unconscious time, to sort of live with you, dream with you. It's as I said before. A lot of unconscious time goes into writing. What I CAN do, is write fiction and nonfiction at the same time. Those two different genres don't seem to interfere with one another.

Melodie: I know the beginning of my story and how it will end, but how do I plot the middle?

Patricia: Hard question. It's called sagging in the middle. And it doesn't mean middle age spread. It means that nothing is happening. But remember what I said before -- we need trouble! Be a troublemaker. If each chapter builds MORE trouble, MORE suspense, then your middle won't sag. And remember too, that you don't just want to pile on incidents -- each thing that happens, each trouble -- should be a cause and effect.

Shoeless: Did you work through an agent? Or submit the material yourself?

Patricia: Yes, I have an agent. But I don't think an agent is necessary for a new writer. In fact, it can help you know your field by submitting work yourself.

Maudy: Which point of view do you use the most - 1st or 3rd person, and why?

Patricia: I almost always use first person. It works for me. And I don't know why. And yes, in my books for little kids, I use third person. That works for those books. It's almost as though each book needs to be a certain way, and I never know when I start which way it will go.

Ducky: Did you start your career writing books, or did you start with magazines?

Patricia: I started with magazine articles for adults. And I still write some adult stuff. In fact, my daughter and I are collaborating on an adult book now -- a mother/daughter thing. But we don't know where it is going. Yet.

Maudy: Do you have a certain daily schedule to make sure you get some writing time?

Patricia: Oh, yes. And one does not "get" writing time. One MAKES it. I start off every day the same way, unless I am speaking or travelling. I get up really early -- about five thirty. I go for my run, about three miles, after filling myself with caffeine. Then, I come back home, shower, dress, all that stuff, read the paper, sometimes go out for breakfast. I find that since my office is at home, going 'out' is like going to work -- it shapes my day. Then I come home, about nine-thirty, ready to work. And oh! Don't ever bring the coffee into your office near your computer! (I did. It was a tragedy.) And then, I write from nine thirty until about one or so. I take a long break, maybe two hours and come back. In the afternoon, I do revison, editing work, letters to kids... the business part of my writing. And I quit the computer about six or six thirty p.m.

Nessa: Do you stick with just one publisher? Or do you have several you write for?

Patricia: I have many different publishers. Years ago, that was frowned upon. Today, most of us write for different publishers. This is why: I can write more than one book a year. But most publishers, unless they are doing a series, only want one book a year. So it's in my interest to have many different publishers.

SaraJ: Do plots follow trends at all?

Patricia: Yes, I think they do. But no, I don't think you should -- that is, I try not to follow trends.

author2b: Did you write when your children were young? How did you "make" time then?

Patricia: Then I wrote when they went to bed at night -- usually from about ten p.m. to midnight.

MODERATOR: How do you make a climax scene of your plot exciting enough?

Patricia: Hmmm. I can't answer that very well. I think you don't 'make' it exciting. I think that follows through from your entire plot. If the plot is filled with action and suspense, then the climax scene will be rewarding. NO?

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MODERATOR: I'm sorry to have to stop the discussion here, but we're out of time for tonight. First, thank you so much, Pat, for joining us tonight to discuss plotting. It's the backbone of a good story, and you've given us a lot of practical help. We're really glad that it worked out for you to be here tonight.

Patricia: Thanks you! I had fun. And I am sooo glad that my computer cooperated for a change. He's a sneaky, sly creature.

MODERATOR: Be sure to come back next week, when Terry Whalin will be here to discuss a critical aspect of "making it" as a writer: "The Business Side of Writing." How can we be more productive, using the new tools available, to manage our telephones, help record interviews, manage our money, and keep track of manuscripts? When are you ready for an agent--and how do you find one? Terry's magazine articles have appeared in more than 50 publications, plus he's written more than 45 books. Come back next week and hear from an expert on how to manage the business side of writing. And now, good night, everyone!

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