Instititute of Children's Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Writing Biographies for Young People" with Pat McCarthy

Thursday, January 18, 2001

Moderator is Kristi Holl, author of 24 books for middle graders and young adults, over 150 articles for children and adults, and the web editor for this site.

Pat is Pat McCarthy, author of four books for Enslow Publishers, all YA biographies (Daniel Boone: Frontier Legend, 2000; Thomas Paine: Revolutionary Patriot & Writer; 2001; Abigail Adams, 2002; Henry Ford, 2002.) She's also sold stories, articles, and puzzles to children's magazines, including Highlights for Children, Cricket, Children's Digest, Pockets, Children's Playmate, On the Line, R-A-D-A-R, and others.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who asked questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights: 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening! We're here tonight with Pat McCarthy who will be talking about "Writing Biographies for Young People." Pat has written four YA biographies for Enslow Publishers (Daniel Boone: Frontier Legend, 2000; Thomas Paine: Revolutionary Patriot & Writer; 2001; Abigail Adams, 2002; and Henry Ford, 2002.) It takes special skills to bring people from the past alive for young readers, and tonight Pat will be sharing some of her secrets with us. Welcome, Pat!

Pat: Thank you, Kristi. Hi, everybody. Glad to see all of you. And I want to thank Kristi for inviting me.

Moderator: You're very welcome! Before we tackle tonight's subject, would you mind telling us how you got started writing?

Pat: I decided that when I retired from teaching, I wanted to do writing and photography. So a couple of years before that, I started taking workshops in both. The Highlights Workshops at Chautauqua were the most help.

AnneKelly: Why were the Highlights Workshops the most helpful to you?

Pat: Anne, they have so many good authors and editors there, and the staff is great. And you get to spend lots of time with the faculty and staff. You have your meals with them, and evening activities, so you get to know them.

Moderator: Pat, you've written such a variety of material. What is it about biographies that interests you?

Pat: Well, I've always liked to read biographies, and I think it's fun to try to bring someone back to life for readers.

Moderator: Did you have any favorite biographies as a child?

Pat: I loved that whole series of junior biographies. They had orange covers: Clara Barton, Thomas Edison, Lou Gehrig. And I loved Invincible Louisa.

Moderator: How do you go about choosing a person to write about?

Pat: Well, I choose someone from the list Enslow makes up in January! But the first biography I worked on was on Annie Oakley, who is from my county. I still haven't sold that one.

SaraJ: Before choosing someone to write about, do you check Books in Print first to see how many there are of that person?

Pat: Yes, I do. I also check the publication dates and the age for which they are written. Biographies for other age groups won't be in competition with yours.

wendymh: Please tell me about Enslow and where to find this list.

Pat: Wendy, Enslow Publishers is an educational publisher that does dozens of biographies. They have several different series. They are listed in Children's Book Market and Children's Writer's & Illustrator's Market. Or you can look at their web site at www.enslow.com

AnneKelly: Are all your biographies for one particular age group?

Pat: Anne, mine are all YA, for young adults. That means age 11 and up.

Mom of 3: Is there anyone you would suggest NOT writing biographies about (too many already done)?

Pat: Gee, I don't know. My first one was on Daniel Boone, and there are lots on him. But I figured if Enslow wanted one written, they must think it would sell.

ocam: How did you start writing for Enslow?

Pat: I queried them about that Annie Oakley book I still haven't sold. Got a letter from the editor saying they had one in progress. But she said to call her if I was interested in other topics. I did, and a couple of weeks later, she assigned me a book.

Moderator: Exactly what are you trying to accomplish when you write a biography?

Pat: Well, I'd say I'm trying to bring the person alive for kids, give them a look into his or her personal life and accomplishments.

Moderator: Do you try to include everything that happened in a person's life?

Pat: Kristi, that would be impossible, especially in a children's book. You have to choose the most important and interesting things to include. A lot depends on the length of the book. Mine are 19,000 words.

Moderator: Do you avoid anything that makes the subject of your book look bad?

Pat: If I think it's an important part of the person's life, I put it in. I figure the editor will take it out if they think it shouldn't be there. For example, I included the fact that Daniel Boone's daughter, Jemimah, was actually fathered by his brother, Ned, while he was on a year-long hunting trip.

christine collier: So you don't sugarcoat the truth in your biographies as so many others do, especially when they are for children?

Pat: Not really. I don't think my publisher wants me to. They are very meticulous about details being correct. I don't think you can just leave out chunks of a person's life. It doesn't give a true picture if you do that. On the other hand, I try not to sensationalize anything.

AnneKelly: Do you ever do a book on just one part of a person's life, i.e., how they grew up?

Pat: Anne, that's one way to do a biography. I haven't done one like that because that's not what my publisher wants. They want Chapter One to be on an exciting event in the person's life. Chapter Two is Childhood. Chapter Three is college or young adult life. It progresses chronologically through their life. The last chapter is their legacy.

wendymh: Is there a demand for biographies of real, everyday people who make a difference in their community?

Pat: Wendy, I think possibly there's more demand for that sort of thing in the magazine market rather than the book market.

Moderator: Is it better to write about a well-known person or a lesser-known one?

Pat: Well, if you write about a well-known person, there will be more competing books. But on the other hand, if the person isn't known, it may be harder to sell.

AnneKelly: Is there more of a demand for someone who's done good things as opposed to something scandalous (or crime figures) in the children's market?

Pat: Probably, Anne, although Enslow has done people like Billy the Kid and Jesse James.

Moderator: What's the first thing you do when you start a new biography?

Pat: I read everything I can find on the person. I start by reading a children's biography. That way I can get a quick overview of the person's life.

Moderator: Do you do an outline?

Pat: Yes, I have to turn in an outline to the publisher before I get the contract and the first half of the advance.

Moderator: What type of outline do you do? How detailed is it?

Pat: The outlines I've done for Enslow just have a title for each chapter, and a paragraph about what will be in the chapter. That seems to be okay with them. They send back the outline with questions and suggestions scribbled in the margins.

DrFredB: Pat, the format you describe seems awfully constraining. It probably works for lots of subjects, but some people's lives cry out for a different focus and organization. How willing is your publisher to consider a different outline? For instance, a living person is still building a legacy.

Pat: Hi, Fred! I really don't know. I've never asked that question. The format has seemed to fit the books I've done. I don't think I'd want to do one on a living person anyway.

Maudy: Why do you avoid people who are still living?

Pat: Maudy, I'm writing for a series called Historical American Biographies. Everyone in the series is dead. But I would be afraid I would upset a living subject, I guess.

bernie: Do you ever choose the subject or does the publisher always do it?

Pat: So far the publisher has, bernie. They come out with a list of topics each year. Then my editor calls me and lets me choose one. I think they'd be open for suggestions for the next year's list.

Mom of 3: Have you ever done a biography on a famous animal? (i.e. Lassie, Mr. Ed the horse, etc.)

Pat: No, Mom, I haven't, but it might be fun! How about Morris the Cat?

greenecho: Is there a particular 'lifestyle' that publishers are looking for - i.e., sports figure, scientists, artists?

Pat: I really think they are open to lots of different types of people. I think Enslow has series on all those types. Not sure about artists, though.

teach: Are biographies popular for teens?

Pat: I hope so! But I imagine they are used more for book reports than because they are popular with teens! Although I'd hope they would enjoy them. I'm sure the ones on sports figures or singers are popular with teens. Not so sure about the historical ones like I do.

GiddyUpGo: Are Historical Biographies still popular for children, such as Laura Ingalls Wilder and other famous children's authors?

Pat: I would think children's authors have their place, like any other group of people.

Moderator: After the outline, do you start writing right away, or do all the research first?

Pat: Actually, I do most of the research before I start writing.

Moderator: How do you actually go about researching the person's life?

Pat: Well, first of all I get all the books I can find on the person's life. I go to the nearest big city library, where they have thousands of books in storage. I also look at the bibliographies in the backs of those books to see if there is any interesting source where they got a lot of information. For example, with Daniel Boone, I used the Draper Manuscripts a lot.

Moderator: Do you use other biographies for research?

Pat: Yes, but I try to supplement them with primary sources like the manuscripts I mentioned above. For my Abigail Adams biography, I depended a lot on the letters she and John wrote each other over the years. Many of them have survived.

Gwen: A contemporary person has written an autobiography with a co-author. Is the book considered a primary source? Can I use info from the book?

Pat: You can use info from any book, if you give credit for anything that isn't common knowledge. I don't know that I'd consider it a primary source. There is another author. Besides, some autobiographies are more flawed than biographies, especially if the subject has an agenda of some sort, where he/she wants to promote himself/herself and leaves out things that make him/her look bad.

Dorothy: How do I know that I won't be repeating errors written by other biographers?

Pat: That's a hard one. You just have to read everything you can get your hands on and try to determine which writers are the most "believable." Also sometimes you can track down errors if you go to some primary sources.

Moderator: What do you do if your sources disagree?

Pat: I try to see how many of them disagree, and which ones I trust more. It's a judgment call. Sometimes you can't decide, so I put something like, "According to so and so, XXX did thus and so."

bernie: How much time do you spend on research? Do you include pictures, letters and a lot of quotes?

Pat: bernie, I spend several months researching each book I do. Probably 5 or 6 months. I am expected to provide 21 photographs for each book. I definitely use a lot of quotes. I think that makes it more interesting and helps to transmit the flavor of the person to the reader.

Mom of 3: Do you try to contact descendants of the people you write about to get less-known information?

Pat: Mom, I've never done that. Except for the Annie Oakley book, which I'm still trying to sell. Her grand-niece is in my Writers' Club, and has helped me a lot. But I don't have time or money to track down descendants, although it would be nice.

goodplace: Where do you get photographs?

Pat: I don't have to be a photographer, although I am. I have to provide old photos of the person, his/her family, events of the times, places he/she lived. I have to find them and pay for prints and any permission necessary. The Library of Congress is a good source. Of course, there are no photographs of Daniel Boone or Abigail Adams. But there are photos of portraits of them and of places they lived.

Maudy: How do you go about dealing with copyrights on photos since you have to provide them?

Pat: Maudy, that hasn't been a problem so far, since the photos have been old enough to be out of copyright. It may be a problem on the book I'm finishing up now. It's on Henry Ford. I'm hoping the Ford Motor Company will let me use some photos.

SaraJ: How expensive is it to pay for the prints? Does that come out of a special advance?

Pat: I think I spent about $350 on the photos for the Daniel Boone book. With Enslow, the author is responsible for paying for them. Some publishers give you a photo allowance, but I have to use my money. Which can be from my advance, or other money. But the advance may be all you get, if the book doesn't sell enough copies to cover the advance. If it does, I'll get royalties.

JY: Do you need to travel or can you get things like copies of diaries or letters via interlibrary loan?

Pat: JY, I can't afford to travel on what I get paid for a children's biography. Interlibrary loan is good. I did travel to Boonesborough, KY when I did the Boone book. And to Greenfield Village and the Henry Ford Museum in Michigan. But neither place is that far from where I live in Ohio.

AnneKelly: When you say primary sources, do you mean letters, diaries, etc., that came from the actual subject?

Pat: Primary sources include those things, and other things, like government records. Census, land records, the kinds of things people use for genealogy research.

ocam: How would you find primary sources if you didn't live near a large city library?

Pat: Well, interlibrary loan is always an option. I'm close to Ft. Wayne IN which has one of the best genealogy libraries in the world. That's where I went to read the microfilms of the Draper Manuscripts on Daniel Boone.

Dolly: Do you have to get written consent from living relatives to do the book?

Pat: No, you don't have to do that.

AnneKelly: Do you get a set rate for each book since they are for the same publisher?

Pat: Anne, they have a set advance and royalty they begin at. I got a slightly bigger advance for the third and fourth books. That doesn't mean I'm getting more money. It's just more up front, but it will take longer to earn out the advance. And if it wouldn't happen to sell very many, I would still have that money.

Moderator: Do you interview people as part of your research?

Pat: Not very often. That's kind of like trying to find the descendants. Annie Oakley's relatives are the only ones I've ever interviewed for a biography.

Moderator: Do you make up conversation in your books?

Pat: No, that's a big no-no for Enlsow. And I agree with them, although those orange biographies back in the 50's did that. I have to have a reference note for every quote, everything that tells how the subject felt about anything, every fact that I didn't find in three sources.

Moderator: Do you describe incidents that only might have happened?

Pat: If I do, I make it clear that no one knows for sure if they happened.

Moderator: Wouldn't most of the information be a guess--their opinions and what they said and did on a daily basis? Do you have no conversation at all since no one was around to record their exact words?

Pat: Well, what they said is only there if there are documented quotes that someone wrote down. Naturally, they probably don't remember the exact words they said. But I'll say that "so and so remembers them saying this." A lot of the quotes are from things the person wrote, like letters, autobiography, etc.

Moderator: That makes sense! So do you fictionalize anything at all? (And at what point does it cross over from nonfiction to historical fiction then?)

Pat: Not really. Every scene I include in a book is based on someone's recollections. For example, in the Daniel Boone book, I start out with a scene where Daniel's daughter and two other girls have been kidnapped by Indians. The Draper manuscripts have interviews with several people who were there. So it was easy to recreate that scene authentically.

Moderator: Once you have the tons of research done, how do you organize your notes?

Pat: Well, I take most of my notes right on the computer, if I have the source at home. Unfortunately, I don't have a laptop to take to the library. I open a file for each chapter and as I go through a book, I switch from one file to another, as I get to material that belongs in another chapter. That's where the outline is invaluable, but it often changes after I start on the book. Sometimes there is more info on one topic than I expected, so I adjust chapters. When I get ready to write a chapter, I make up a more detailed outline. I used to print out all my notes, cut them up and tape them on sheets of paper corresponding to the parts of the outline. On this book, I'm trying something new. I'm cutting and pasting the notes on the computer, so I can print out each section. I'm not sure if it's faster, but it's sure a lot less messy!

Moderator: Do you do any of your research online?

Pat: I check online to see what I can find. It might give me ideas of books to look for. Or places to send for information. But I'm not convinced that a lot of what is online can really be documented. So I use it to point me to other sources.

Dorothy: How many sources do you find before you consider a fact valid?

Pat: Well, Enslow tells me I have to footnote any fact I don't find in three sources. However, I'll bet there are things on Annie Oakley that I can find in a dozen books, and I know they're not true. But I guess three is kind of the rule of thumb.

Maudy: Do you include the reference note in the text, or do you provide a section at the end of the biography?

Pat: Maudy, Enslow puts all those notes together at the end of the book. I put them in the chapters like footnotes, but just the little superscript number is there. You have to look in the back to see where the info came from.

Moderator: How long does it take you to write a biography?

Pat: Well, I've had about five or six months to do each of the ones I've done. But the next one will take longer because I'm busy with teaching, too. So I think I'll do only one this year.

Moderator: How long are your biographies?

Pat: They are 19,000 words. That's about 75 typewritten pages. The books have 128 pages.

AnneKelly: So I guess it takes about a year per book, 6 months for research and 6 to write?

Pat: No, I research for about four and a half months and write for about a month. But as I said, the next one will take me longer, because I'm busier now.

Moderator: Let's talk about actually selling a biography. How would our viewers go about that?

Pat: Well, you need to check in market guides, like Children's Book Market and Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market and check out the markets. See what each publisher wants. They're all different. Some want only a query. Others want a query and three chapters, or one, or two. And some want the whole manuscript. Be sure to send ONLY what they want.

Sis2: Pat, do you have to send a story with your query so the editor can review your writing skills?

Pat: Sis, I just sent Enslow a query letter and a list of published credits. I've often wondered if they looked up any of my magazine articles or stories. I didn't think the query letter was that impressive.

DrFredB: How did you "sell" yourself to Enslow? It seems as if once you get "in" and do a good job, you continue to get offers for new books.

Pat: Fred, I just called the editor when she invited me to, and we talked about my writing and teaching experience. She liked that combination. She said most people who want to write for kids either write for a 4-year-old or a 40-year-old! I had sold a lot of articles, and had done profiles of people for a local magazine. Had one biographical article in Highlights.

Maudy: You mention Enslow's list. Can you write to publishers for their lists?

Pat: Maudy, I don't think it's something they have printed up. I think they just share it with the people who already write for them, or any newcomer they think would be good. I think if you contact a publisher and they are interested in your qualifications, they will probably tell you if they have topics to assign.

wendymh: Should you be part way through the book before you find a publisher?

Pat: Wendy, I certainly would know enough about the subject to be sure I could write the length book that they want. I'd make sure there is plenty of info available.

Moderator: Can you write biographies for magazines?

Pat: Yes, but of course they are a lot shorter than books.

Moderator: How does a magazine biography differ from a book, other than length?

Pat: In a magazine piece, you don't usually try to cover the subject's whole life. You might just write about his/her childhood. Or an interesting incident in his/her life. My article on Grandma Moses for Highlights a couple of years ago concentrated on how she was discovered, and the fact that she did most of her work in her late 80' s and 90's, and even after she was 100.

Moderator: Are many publishers -- or magazines -- looking for biographies?

Pat: I looked today in Children's Book Market, put out by ICL. I counted 91 book publishers who use biographies. And their Children's Magazine Market lists 16 magazines that want them.

Oma: Did you start out writing books or articles for magazines?

Pat: Oma, I started out writing for magazines. I probably sold close to 100 stories, articles, and puzzles before I sold the first book. Some of those articles were for magazines for adults.

TamR: Are there any specific types of people publishers want to see more of?

Pat: Tam, I imagine it varies with the publisher. An educational publisher like Enslow is interested in doing books on people that will fit into the school curriculum.

Moderator: How can you promote your biography?

Pat: Well, I've had a book signing at a local book store and sold 34 copies. Did a "Meet the Author" night at the local library. And I've done school programs at several schools so far. Another way is through a web site, although mine is temporarily down.

Maudy: In fiction, conversation is an important way to make the story exciting. What component is important in making a biography exciting?

Pat: Maudy, I try to use a lot of quotes, because I think they help to show what a person was like. I also try to find little anecdotes that I think will interest kids.

wendymh: If an event is famous, would a biography about a lesser known participant sell to give added insight?

Pat: Wendy, it might. You'd want to tie it in with the event, so people would know, like "John Doe: Survivor of the Titanic" or something like that.

Moderator: This may sound odd, but how do you end a biography? Is it always with the death of the subject?

Pat: Well, my biographies end with a chapter about the legacy the person has left. I try to cover his/her major contributions, debunk some myths, and stress their major characteristics. Kind of sum up their life, I guess. Don't just kill them off and quit!

AnneKelly: Do you feel your experience with magazine articles helped get your first book contract?

Pat: Anne, I'm sure it did. I'm sure that when the editor saw how many magazine articles I'd sold, and that I'd sold to some well-respected magazines like Highlights, Cricket, Children's Digest, and Pockets, she figured I must be able to write.

Maudy: Do you work on other writing projects while you are writing a biography?

Pat: I'm a monthly contributor to a local magazine, writing quizzes, profiles of local people, and some travel stories. I also sometimes work on a story or article. And I have a couple of children's novels in progress, and a nonfiction adult book about my mother's struggle with Alzheimer's...and my struggle with her.

GiddyUpGo: Do you believe it's best to stay away from television stars for children's biographies?

Pat: I wouldn't want to do a biography of a TV star. I think the ones I do will probably be more lasting. People will remember Daniel Boone long after they've forgotten Barney and Britney Spears.

jenni123: How long does it take you to write a bio., from beginning research to end?

Pat: Jenni, about five or six months. I usually can write the book in about two to two and a half weeks, then I have to revise and cut. On Thomas Paine and Abigail Adams, I had to cut 9000 and 8000 words. But I write fast.

Maudy: Do you send a bibliography with each submission? If so, how detailed is it?

Pat: Since I'm doing these books with the Chapter Notes, they serve as a bibliography. When I've submitted my Annie Oakley book (which I haven't sold) I've included a fairly detailed bibliography.

wendymh: If the subject matter warrants a series, how is this accepted?

Pat: You mean would it be accepted if you proposed a series? I think most publishers want to start with one book and see how you do and how it sells first.

opzu4: I enjoy writing about the American Indians; is this still an interesting subject for children?

Pat: Yes, I'm sure it is. There are many fascinating Native Americans.

AnneKelly: Is there anyone -- alive or dead -- that you wouldn't write about?

Pat: Bill Clinton! Especially for children.

JAMES55CLINTON: Myths about historical figures often come from screenplays. Is it difficult to debunk them? I'm thinking of Molly Brown as an example.

Pat: Good observation, James. Yes, there are lots of myths about Daniel Boone from TV. In addition, everyone gets him mixed up with Davy Crockett!

kau12871: Hi! I know you probably answered this question a hundred times, but what would you suggest an aspiring writer do to overcome writer's block?

Pat: I think you probably wouldn't get writer's block if you were working on a biography. I think blocks are more related to fiction, where you get stuck on plotting.

gini: What is the first thing you cut when you are revising?

Pat: Words like that and however. I try to put things in active voice rather than passive. Also, I try to find shorter, more direct ways of saying things.

wendymh: How do you spend a typical day?

Pat: Well, I try to write in the mornings, from about 9-1. Some afternoons I volunteer at the Nature Center as receptionist, and I manage the gift shop there. I also work on editing my ICL lessons in the afternoons.

SaraJ: If you knew you could sell the manuscript the minute you finished it, what one person would you most like to write about next?

Pat: Annie Oakley!

Moderator: I'm sorry to have to stop here, but we're out of time tonight. Pat, thank you so much for coming and sharing your expertise on this subject! I loved biographies as a child--my own favorites were Madame Curie and Invincible Louisa--and found them very inspirational. This has been very enjoyable to me personally, and very helpful to our viewers.

Pat: Well, I've enjoyed it, too. Lots of good questions from all of you!

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks when we'll have with us prolific mystery writer, Vickie Erwin, who will be discussing "Creating Believable Heroes and Villains." Vickie has published 12 middle grade mysteries (some series), 2 YA mysteries, 3 early chapter mysteries, and is a member of the SCBWI National board. If writing mysteries for any age interests you, you won't want to miss this interview. And now, good night, everyone!

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