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Transcripts

"Critique Groups: Your Chance to Grow" with Nancy Butts.

Thursday, August 22, 2002

Moderator is Kristi Holl, web editor for this site and author of 24 books and 150+ articles. She also taught writing for children for 15 years.

Nancy is Nancy Butts, author and former journalist. Nancy's fiction includes two YA novels, CHESHIRE MOON and DOOR IN THE LAKE.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who had questions.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights for two hours beginning [9 CANADA/Atlantic], 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for this evening, and tonight I have with me Nancy Butts who will be speaking on the subject of "Critique Groups: Your Chance to Grow." Nancy has two YA novels to her credit, CHESHIRE MOON and DOOR IN THE LAKE, and has belonged to the same critique group for nine years. Without their guidance on craft and their belief in her writing, she says she would not be published today. I can't wait to hear about this group! Welcome, Nancy!

Moderator: Nancy, first, how did you get started writing?

Nancy: I began as a child, making up stories when I ran out books to read. I didn't start writing the stories down until I was ten, and that same year I published my first poem. I did the usual things in high school--worked on the newspaper, edited the yearbook--but I took a detour in college. I majored in religion, minored in Russian, and worked in the health care field after I graduated. It wasn't until I was in my late twenties that the writing bug caught up to me again, and I found a job at a local newspaper. After 11 years there, I started writing children's fiction when my son was small.

Moderator: What was your first publishing experience?

Nancy: My first publishing experience was actually on the newspaper. Although I was hired as the office manager, within two weeks they asked me to write a story about a local cook. It was my first byline, and I was thrilled.

Moderator: What is the general purpose of any critique group?

Nancy: The primary purpose of a critique group is to read and evaluate works in progress. However, you will also share information about marketing and support each other through the ups and downs of the writing life. Over time, close friendships can develop.

Moderator: Where does a writer start, trying to find (or form) a critique group?

Nancy: One good way to do it is to join a writing class at a local college. Or post a "Writers Wanted" notice on the bulletin board of your public library. Make use of church bulletins and free classifieds in local papers. Attend writers' conferences or seminars, and network. Ask everyone you meet if they know of open groups that you might join, or if they want to form a group with you. Professional groups like SCBWI also have resources on Web sites that can help you link to other writers like yourself.

Pamela: Are there some 'rules' that are helpful to use to begin with? I'm scared about making up flyers to post in the library and at grocery stores to start a critique group because there are some really strange people out there. What are some other ways of becoming part of a critique group if there seems to be none?

Nancy: Pamela, I can understand your fears. That's why it may be best to stay with groups where you know everyone is interested in writing. You'd be amazed how many seminars there are for writers. Bookstores like Barnes and Noble often sponsor groups, and you can observe people and have a chance to talk to them before you think about starting a group with them.

Moderator: Tell us your own history with critique groups: do you currently belong to one, and if so, for how long?

Nancy: I've belonged to a critique group for nine years. I was lucky enough to be invited to visit them through a contact I had made at the newspaper--a local teacher who had written a picture book. They let me read a sample chapter to them, and two weeks later they phoned to invite me to join permanently.

Moderator: How has it benefited you as a writer?

Nancy: I can't begin to say how much it has benefited me. I wouldn't be published today if not for them. First, I had no clue what I was doing with my first novel, and they gently steered me in the right direction. They gave me all sorts of technical advice, like "don't have four flashbacks in the first chapter." But most of all, they believed in my abilities as a writer. Since I had never written a novel before, I wasn't sure I could finish it. But they did think I could, and with their help I did. Then they helped me find a publisher.

Moderator: Is this the only critique group you've belonged to?

Nancy: No, it is actually the second. The first one was a disaster! There were twenty of us, ranging from poets to gothic romance novelists to Christian bikers. We didn't know what we were doing, and the group was too large to be workable.

Moderator: Okay, suppose you find a group of like-minded writers. What do you do next?

Nancy: I think the first thing you should do, if all of you are new at this together, is sit down and have a planning meeting. Decide how you are going to do things. Where will you meet? How often? How long? Then think about what page limits you'll have for manuscripts, who will read them, whether you should bring multiple copies. Once you've done all that, you should just do it! Get together, and read.

Paulplqn: What was the background of the group members?

Nancy: Do you mean in my original group, or the one I belong to now?

Paulplqn: The one you are in now, please.

Nancy: When I joined, there were four other members. Two of them were published already, and three of us were not. We were all children's writers, although one woman had a background in teleplays and advertising. But we write everything from picture books to YA novels.

Pilarb: I'm reluctant to join a critique group, because I'm not sure that I will be able to give helpful feedback to the other writers. Are there ways to improve critiquing skills?

Nancy: I can understand, because there is a learning curve. I learned by observing the more experienced members of my group at first. But I'm assuming that all of you are students here, and the other way you can learn how to critique is through your interaction with your teachers. I learned a tremendous amount from my working relationship with my editor. In fact, we joke in our group that each of us critiques the same way we are edited.

Margie: In a critique group, how important is it to find people who write the kinds of things that you do? (i.e.: romance gothic writers and sci-fi writers, etc.) Can it work with all different kinds of writers in one group?

Nancy: Although there are commonalities to writing, my experience has been that it is very helpful to have writers of the same genre critique your work. I think it's important to have writers of the same genre in the same group.

bettyboop: Since we are not professional teachers or experts in the field of writing, what should be our primary focus on critiquing others when we read their material and give them input?

Nancy: First, remember to be constructive in whatever you say. Then be specific. Focus on what you like about a piece, but try to find the reason why. For instance, say you liked it on Page 3 when Jane said one thing in dialogue, but did something different in action. That showed how conflicted she was. You don't have to be a professional to give a useful critique. You do have to know something about the basics of story--plot, character, etc.--but you don't even have to know all the technical terms. That will come with experience. And when you're pointing out something that doesn't work well in a story, try to suggest a way to do it differently or better. Just don't say, "I didn't like that," or "It's not working." Even if you have to guess, that's helpful.

Paulplqn: Is there a system to follow with a group, like a "Robert's Rules of Order?"

Nancy: No, there is no set system. And not all groups work alike. For instance, in our group, someone else reads your work. You never read your own work aloud. But I've heard of other groups that do it differently. Some send copies of their work to each member ahead of time. We don't do that. We just bring multiple copies and pass them out at group.

Moderator: Is there an optimum number of members to have in such a group?

Nancy: I've been in groups ranging in number from three to 20, and I'd say four or five is ideal. But it depends on how much time you have during a meeting. If you've got three hours to meet, six people can work. But it depends on how much time you have to meet. If you've got only two hours, five members may be too many. You need at least 30 minutes per manuscript, so divide that into your time, and that gives you a number of how many people you can have.

Moderator: How often is it best to meet?

Nancy: At one point, we met every week, and that was great. But I have to drive 150 miles round trip, so now we've dropped back to once every two weeks. That works nicely because it gives you time to come home, revise your chapter, then work on the next chapter to take to group. I do know of groups that meet only once a month, though.

Moderator: How long is a good length for a meeting, and how much is spent in chitchat and snacking?

Nancy: I'd say three hours is a good minimum. I know of groups that meet all day, but I can't imagine working that into most people's busy schedules. The thing you have to guard against is too much time chatting. Try to keep yourself to 20 or 30 minutes tops for that.

Moderator: Where are the best places to meet?

Nancy: If you can manage it, members' homes are ideal. They are private and quiet. But that isn't always possible. Public libraries sometimes have meeting rooms you can use for free. And if you belong to a church or synagogue, they might let you meet there. If all else fails, you can try a bookstore or cafe, but they tend to be noisy.

Moderator: What are some good basic "rules of the road" in handling the review and critiques of individual manuscripts?

Nancy: First, I think it's helpful for each member to have a printed copy of their own to read along with while it's being read aloud by someone else. It gives you a focus, and the comments you write on it can be taken home by the writer to absorb later. It's also good to set a limit--no more than ten pages for a manuscript, for example. And I can't say this enough: If you're in a group of people who are new to each other, remember to always be constructive in your comments, focusing on the work and not on the writer.

Moderator: Do most critique group members bring multiple copies for others to read, or must they submit them to members in advance of the meeting?

Nancy: I've heard of groups that handle it both ways. In our group, we just bring copies with us. Although it would be nice to have copies in advance, that poses logistic problems in distributing the copies. And it also impinges a bit more on the members' personal writing time. If I got a manuscript in advance, I'd feel obligated to spend time on it outside of group, as well as during group meetings.

Paulplqn: Nancy, does your group take advantage of the Internet to stay in touch?

Nancy: We are e-mail-aholics. We should join a 12-step program, especially me! It's especially important because I live so far away from them. I even have a writer friend in Israel whom I consider an honorary member of our group. We exchange manuscripts via e-mail.

Moderator: Can you tell us what a critique group is NOT supposed to be?

Nancy: It's not supposed to be a civic club. What I mean by that is you don't need to elect officers, vote on rules, invite guest speakers, or have programs. There are writers' organizations out there to do all that for you. You are there to read and critique your work, and that should be the focus. Of course it also becomes a support group for you, and that's wonderful. But beware of it becoming a coffee klatch as well, where it's more about schmoozing and eating muffins than it is about writing. I can say that because I'm guilty of that myself sometimes.

Moderator: How about the bumps in the road? What are some signs that your critique group isn't working?

Nancy: Writers are human, with day jobs and families and problems. Sometimes you may find that you've begun spending more time talking than critiquing. Or that your critiques have gotten either too harsh, or too soft. You may find that it's harder and harder to make time to meet, with members changing and hectic schedules. Or worst of all, there may be friction between certain members of the group. This is potentially the most destructive problem of all.

Moderator: What do you do then when your critique group isn't working?

Nancy: I have to admit that I don't have any magic answers. If the problem is temporary, related to a change in one of the members' personal or professional circumstances, you can just ride it out. It may help to change your meeting schedule, or modify the ground rules you've set up. But at the risk of sounding like Dr. Phil, sometimes the best thing to do is set aside a meeting just for the purpose of talking to each other honestly about what is happening. See if you can figure out a solution without having to split apart.

Margie: What can you do about a writer who's too shy to share their work?

Nancy: Margie, that can be a big problem. You don't want to force anyone before they are ready. My first thought would be to let them just sit there for a couple of meetings and listen. They can contribute their own critiques of others' work. And perhaps over time, as they see that the other members aren't sharks waiting to eat them, they might gain the trust to open up. It might help also if they started with a short piece, maybe just a page at first, to let others read it.

Paulplqn: I would imagine that keeping deadlines for the group helps you meet deadlines for publishers. True?

Nancy: This is so true! When I first joined my group, I ran around frantically every week, trying to get a chapter ready. I called it "Fear of Writer's Group." I wasn't afraid they would tear my work apart, I was afraid they'd yell at me if I showed up empty-handed. So I never did!

Moderator: You've said there are three kinds of critiques. What are they?

Nancy: I once saw a skit about this that has always stuck in my mind. A group of writers at a conference acted out the good, the nice, and the ugly critiques. An ugly critique is the one we're all scared of--that someone is going to get in our face and tell us that we write drivel, and that we are horrible people, and that we should never write again. This is the destructive, personal kind of critique I've warned against earlier. But the nice critique can be just as bad. It doesn't hurt to hear that "I liked your story so much!" or "That was great." But what does it tell you? How has it helped you revise your work and make it stronger and better? It hasn't. It hasn't even pointed out what they liked precisely, or why, or what you did that was so effective. That leaves us with the truly good critique, the one that spotlights strengths and points out weaknesses with suggestions for how to improve, all done in specific and concrete terms.

Pfums: Are there rules of etiquette about how often a person submits a manuscript to the group? Is it, say, improper to have more than one at a time, or is it expected that you have something every other time? Or is this maybe a group-by-group thing?

Nancy: In our group, we expect that everyone should have the chance to submit a manuscript each time we meet. But in a larger group, there might need to be a rule that you can only submit a manuscript every other meeting.

Moderator: How do you handle inviting new members to your group? Who makes that decision?

Nancy: This can be ticklish. The group as a whole has to agree on new members. No one can go off on their own and invite someone new. Actually, I'm the newest member! But what they did with me was issue an invitation to visit. I was clear that this was a one-time thing, so no feelings would be hurt. I suppose you can say it was a kind of audition. They critiqued a chapter and were very helpful, but they didn't say anything to me right away. They met without me present, and talked about it, and I got a phone call a few weeks later saying they'd like it if I came permanently.

Jim: When considering a new membership, do you let majority rule or use the black ball system?

Nancy: Jim, it's definitely a majority rule. But our group is so close that if one person had serious objections to a new member, we probably would reconsider. Fortunately, that situation has never arisen.

Moderator: If you are invited or allowed to join a group "in progress," how can you best fit in?

Nancy: From my experience as the new member of an established group, I'd say first sit back and observe. I was a reporter for 11 years, so I was used to watching people and trying to figure out what they were like. See how they interact with each other, and try to follow their cues.

Margie: If you had to remove someone from the group how would that be handled?

Nancy: Again, Margie, I'm pleased to say that this has never happened to us, so I don't have any experience with it. From what I've heard of other groups, generally if things have gotten so bad, there is sort of a general divorce, and the group sadly splits up. We have had people leave on their own, and we've always had a farewell party and a lot of hugs, and we try to keep in touch.

Elle: What if a member only gives "nice" critiques? How do you get her to be more constructive and helpful?

Nancy: What I would probably do, if I were the subject of the nice critique, is to come back at this person with questions. If she said, I loved your story, I'd ask her why? I'd ask specific questions. What did you like about the main character? Do you think it would be better if I wrote the ending this way, or this way? I'd try to ask her open-ended questions to begin with, then give her options to choose from if that didn't work.

Moderator: What are the qualities of a good critique group member?

Nancy: One of the most important qualities of a good critique member is to show up at meetings even when she doesn't have something of her own to read. In other words, he or she understands that it is just as important to give critiques as to get them.

Moderator: Is it advisable to belong to more than one critique group?

Nancy: If you've got enough time to belong to two critique groups, perhaps you're not spending enough time writing. (I'm smiling now.) Seriously, there could be both advantages and disadvantages to it. On the one hand, you could get a broader perspective on your work, a wider range of reactions, and that might be helpful. But if you hear too much advice on your writing, and get too many opinions, there is also a danger that you could get confused. Sometimes it's easy to lose your work on a project, especially in the middle of a novel. If you get confused by too much input, there is a risk that you might stop writing! So you need to balance the pros and cons.

Moderator: What are the advantages/disadvantages of "virtual" critique groups; i.e. those that "meet" online, via the mail, or even telephone?

Nancy: If you live in the wilds of rural Georgia, as I do, far away from bookstores and even a decent library, virtual critiques can be a godsend. It may be your only way to connect with other writers. The Internet especially can be helpful. There's no substitute for face to face meetings, but if you e-mail copies of manuscripts to all group members in advance, then you could "meet" in a chat room, or use instant messaging such as at AOL or Yahoo, to discuss your reactions.

Margie: Is the adage "To thine own self be true" good? Let's say you don't agree with someone's assessment of your work because you don't think they understand it. Should you trust yourself (your instincts) more?

Nancy: You're going to hate this answer, but I'd have to say it depends, Margie. Sometimes you as a writer are just too close to your work to evaluate it objectively. My advice is never to argue with a critique when you're first hearing it. Sometimes you're too close to a manuscript to evaluate it objectively. Take it home with you, think about it, then come back and ask questions later if need be. Trust your fellow group members to be looking out for the best in your work. But if after reflection you're still convinced that they're wrong, then you must go with your instincts. Just recognize that even then, sometimes you'll be right, but sometimes you'll be wrong.

Moderator: What do you do when your critique group and your editor disagree about your manuscript and what needs to be changed?

Nancy: I think this is the reason that some editors (not mine!) are a little afraid of critique groups. I listen hard to what my editor says, ponder it, bring it to group. Then 99 percent of the time, I go with my editor. I trust him first of all. I view him not as an adversary, but a partner. He is trying to help me achieve this vision of a book that I had, but didn't quite achieve on the first thirteen tries! Editors do have an insight and wisdom born of long experience.

Moderator: Can a group of all unpublished writers work?

Nancy: It can, but I think it's more difficult. What is essential in this case is that at least some of them have had some training in the elements of writing, whether through a class, seminars, or even self-taught through books.

Moderator: Beyond critiques: what else can a critique group offer?

Nancy: Writing is essentially a solitary act--just you and the world you are creating. Although solitude is an essential part of the creative process, it is isolating. A critique group offers the lonely writer a bridge back to the world, a sense of community, a sense of belonging to a group of people who care passionately about the same things that bring you joy. These are the people who will bring you champagne for your triumphs, and lots of chocolate and Kleenex for your momentary defeats.

Moderator: Are critique groups for every writer?

Nancy: Unless the only kind of writing you do is in personal journals, at some point, your work must be shared. A critique group offers a safe first place to begin this sharing. There may be a lucky few writers who have a friend or partner or family member--a muse who lives with them. For those rare writers, a group may not be necessary. But for the rest of us, they are a gift.

Paulplqn: How long does your group meet?

Nancy: My group meets for three hours, sometimes a bit longer. Of course, we travel together whenever we can, just to have more time in the car to talk about writing.

Pilarb: Do you think that e-mail critique groups can be as helpful as person to person ones? After all, you don't get to see the real expressions on people's faces or hear the way they interpret your words when they read them.

Nancy: I don't see the expressions on anyone's face either, as I'm usually staring down at the page. But you're right, there is something you miss in e-mail--the laugh at just the right moment, the tear, the puzzlement when something you've written just doesn't get across. Yet I still believe that e-mail groups can be very helpful. I mentioned before that I sometimes exchange manuscripts with a writer in Israel. I just write really long, really off-the-cuff, e-mails to try to get across the totality of my reaction to her work.

paulplqn: Has an editor ever made comments or suggestions that were contrary to the group's input?

Nancy: The short answer to that is yes, but I'm wracking my brain trying to think of a specific example and I can't at the moment.

paulplqn: Have you had work turned down because you took the group's advice over an editor?

Nancy: No, never. But then there has never been a serious, substantive disagreement between them. My editor has met the members of my group on several occasions, and I guess we're all basically on the same wavelength.

Moderator: How did your editor meet your group members?

Nancy: Through SCBWI. After my first novel was published, the regional chapter of SCBWI invited him to speak. And he graciously came, just for me. Of course they were all there, very eager to see what he was like. Since then, they've met at two different meetings of the American Library Association.

paulplqn: Are the group members published by the same editor?

Nancy: No, none of us have the same editor, and that's odd, because between us, we've worked with a LOT of editors. I'm the only one whose "monogamous," having worked with just one editor.

pfums: How easy (or hard) is it for an unpublished writer to "break in" to a group? Is there some degree of inferiority to being unpublished? (In either feeling or fact.)

Nancy: You may not believe this, but I know several award-winning, best-selling authors who can't find groups! It's not so much being published or unpublished. It has to do with many things--what kind of work you do, what your schedule is and whether it matches any group's. And also what your personality is. If you are an assertive, feisty kind of writer, you may not want to join a group of mellow, laid-back types. As in all personal relationships, chemistry does play a part. Remember, I was unpublished when I was invited to join a group.

paulplqn: Are your group members also members of SCBWI as well?

Nancy: Yes, we are all longtime, active members. Two of us just got back from the annual conference in Los Angeles.

Moderator: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm afraid we're out of time now. Nancy, thank you very much for coming tonight and sharing such practical help and insights about finding or forming (and succeeding in) a critique group. Having just moved, I can use this information myself!

Nancy: I hope everyone out there is able to find the group they're searching for. Good night!

Moderator: Thank you! Do come back in two weeks when Cheryl Zach will be talking on the subject of "Working with Editors." This is certainly a subject near and dear to every writer's heart! I'll look forward to seeing you all back here in two weeks! And now, good night, everyone!

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