Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Kelly Milner Halls, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Kelly.

Jan: Welcome to SPECIAL GUEST CHAT: "Super Cool Kid Nonfiction" with Kelly Milner Halls! I'm so glad to have Kelly here in chat tonight -- her books are some of my daughter's favorites. Welcome, Kelly -- I'm so glad you're here.

Kelly: Thank you, I'm glad to be here. Did anyone else show up?

Jan: Yes, we have a nice big group tonight and plenty of questions already.

Kelly: Well, I've got my thinking cap on.

Jan: Did you have a good school visit today?

Kelly: I did, I love doing school visits. The kids are so fun. Terrific. They kind of wander in thinking, "boring," then BAM, they see I'm weird and get excited.

Jan: Great, oh, I think I have a school visit question...

Kelly: Most memorable... Last year, I brought a really crummy print out of TALES OF THE CRYPTIDS. The pictures weren't even all inserted. I only brought it to give them a sneak peek. This 8th grader asked me what would happen to that copy when the real book came out, and I said it would gather dust in a box or help me start a fire. He said, "Can I have it? When the book comes out?" I was SO touched. I sent it to him along with a copy of the finished book. It was just amazing. I was so touched. This was just pages clipped together with a, well, those clippy things. It was really garbage, but he wanted it and asked me to sign it and he was willing to wait. It was really sweet.

Jan: Okay, now tell the chicken story. I love the chicken story.

Kelly: That was pretty memorable too. It was a group of preschool/kindergarteners at a Catholic school called St. Al's. They were SOOOOO wired when I got there, just crazy nutty wired. So we talked a little bit about pets and I read I BOUGHT A BABY CHICKEN to them, my little kid book. After I read it, everyone suddenly had chickens at home." I have seven chickens, I have 50 chickens." One little boy stood up and said, "I have a chicken in my pants." I swear. I nearly fell off my chair. So I said, "That must be itchy business." It was so cute.

Jan: That is so hysterical...I cannot imagine facing a little boy with a chicken in his pants.

Kelly: He was so excited, he just wanted something special to say. A wonderful illustrator named Ruth McNally Barshaw illustrated it for me. It's on my website. She has her first book coming out this fall from Bloomingtree Press.

Jan: I saw that illo...and you know, I am delighted to say that Ruth is going to be a chat guest later this year.

Kelly: Ruth is such a brilliant woman. She had me come to do a conference in Michigan and I was SO impressed with how sweet and SMART she is. She's SO witty. Funny as can be, but so kind and decent. I like her a lot.

Jan: Me too. Okay, now we have to play "stump the Kelly" and let you answer questions."

Kelly: I'm ready.

Kelly: You know, if my computers crash, I'm in trouble, because I tend to organize them in files on my hard drive. I'll have each book under a file, then each chapter in a subfile. I keep it all there and TRY to remember to back it up on a flash drive now and then. It just makes it easier to find and search if it's on my second brain.

Kelly: That's a good story. I wrote an article called PISTOL PACKING PALEONTOLOGIST about a fossil guy who also had a law enforcement degree. I even had GREAT pictures by a National Geographic photographer to turn them on to, affordable. But here's the thing. Until I took my class at ICL, I had no idea WHO wanted WHAT kids' nonfiction article. I didn't understand how to figure it out. So it took me TWO YEARS to accidentally send it to the right person. Once it hit the right editor, they didn't change a word. Not a WORD. The ICL Market Guide saved me from that mistake with future submissions.

Jan: One of our questioners tonight has a similar problem...

Kelly: Worship your local librarian. Most libraries have two years or more of select children's magazines shelved. So if you plan to spend a day or two at your local library, you can REALLY familiarize with those magazines you love. And that's a GREAT investment. It costs time, but not money. Beyond that, if there is a magazine you love, the subscription price isn't a bad investment either. Sometimes, if I loved a magazine, I'd look for material I thought they'd like specifically, and it worked for me.

Kelly: Abso-friggin-lutely. Body functions are HUGELY popular with kids. But you have to get over your "grown-up" manners and make it fun. Make it fun, and they'll love it. I've done articles on body odor and had kids LOVE them. Who knew? So yes. It's doable.

Kelly: Sometimes I do, especially if I'm doing interviews with experts. But my fingers and the keyboard seem to kind of INSERT the thoughts into my brain, so I like to do a lot on the computer.

Kelly: Absolutely. We are journalists -- observers. We aren't hired, necessarily, for our expertise in specific topics. We are hired for our expertise as writers. So if you are brave and seek out experts, if you do your homework, you can write about ANYTHING.

Kelly: That's a great question and it could change your life as a writer if you master that one. Always, always, always lead with something compelling and active. If you're writing about hot air balloons, lead with something amazing about those balloons. If you're writing about dinosaur fossils, lead with one of the facts you found most intriguing. Get inside your inner kid and figure out what made YOU want to write about it. But grab them right up front. Crucial.

Kelly: A lot of them did. Yes. For example, I had an assignment for the Chicago Tribune KidNews -- Where can kids go to dig dinosaur fossils with their parents? As I interviewed the paleontologist, he asked me if I'd heard about Leonardo...a dinosaur fossilized with 70% of its soft tissue intact. Not just bones, but soft tissue fossilized. That inspired me to write DINOSAUR MUMMIES. So yes, an article can often off shoot into a book.

Kelly: Teens are developmentally questioning all things religious. So if I wanted to write about heaven or things of the spirit, I'd probably find elements that had teen appeal. For example, Joan of Arc. Here's this young woman who starts hearing voices. And the voices tell her she'll save France. Is she crazy? Is she chosen? She had such conviction she let them burn her at the stake. Three times. Did you know that? Her body wouldn't consume. It took three tries. THAT is a story that will grab a teen and hang in their thoughts. So if you take your desire to write things of a religious nature for teens, keep that in mind. Teens that live their religion through volunteerism or other "brave" means are also good ways to introduce concepts to a YA audience. Did that help?

Kelly: There are some great books to guide you on creative nonfiction and a great magazine as well, called CREATIVE NONFICTION (it's online too, amazing editor I've interviewed who's name now escapes me.) Before you attempt creative nonfiction, which is fiction that takes the facts and sort of fills in the black spots, study to protect your reputation. And be sure at some point in the introduction or publicity materials, you own up to the fact that it's creative nonfiction. I love the art form. But it takes special and very careful skills. If you want a list of GREAT books, email me. I've written about if for Writer's Market guides.

Kelly: I might try Boy's Life, if they haven't already done that. But you might also try to down shift it a little. Some concepts really are hard to distill down for a young reader market. But if Highlights send you notes, resubmit SOMETHING. That's a great crack in the door to that market, and writing for Highlights is such a joy. They are such nice people.

Kelly: It's mostly all research. But I have a passion for young adult fiction, at least the very best of young adult fiction. So I try to find time to read a lot of that. I also like political nonfiction.

Kelly: You can track down the people who TOOK the images on search engine image banks, and ASK them for permission. But unless they are photos in the public domain, no, you can't just use them. It's still a great tool, though. I find a lot of my photo sources using those search engines.

Kelly: The very best tip on that front is to ask your experts if they know of good photos of their arena of expertise. In other words, if you're interviewing a doctor who uses dolphins to stimulate abused or disabled kids to speak, you ask him if any photographers have ever documented his work. He'll say, "Yes, a guy from the St. Petersburg Gazette was here, I'll have my secretary give you his name and number." That's a great first stab. If that doesn't work, Google is a good source. Find a photo that will work and contact the photographer...send his contact info to your editor.

Kelly: If I had a serious "how to," and I wanted to make it more fun for kids, I'd probably make it a silly comparison piece. How to wind your watch. The right way...twist gently. The wrong way...use the jaws of life at your local fire department. That would give you a chance to get silly, even if the topic wasn't so silly. It's a back door approach to education, but it works.

Kelly: I studied journalism in college after I fell in love with writing for the high school newspaper. But it was my third grade teacher that first inspired me. She said I was a good writer, which opened the door to later possibilities.

Kelly: I can't even imagine a topic that wouldn't have a written source of record. There is always the Library of Congress. If you can't fine anything on the 'Net or at your library, contact the Library of Congress and ask if there is any documentation on your subject.

Kelly: No, you're not. Your editor is responsible, most often. But if you do a little of the photo research for him or her, you'll get another assignment faster than the writer who didn't. Does that make sense? It sure makes it easier for your editor if you ask about photos while you're doing your interviews. And some publishers, book publishers, do ask that you find the photos. Especially in educational markets. But usually, in trade, you're only asked to help.

Kelly: Creative nonfiction is a method often used in some historical fiction...yes. But with most works of historical nonfiction, you have diaries and documents and you can be pretty sure what you're proposing is on target. With creative nonfiction techniques, well, you might be able to write historical fiction on Jesus as an adult based on what's been written about him, right? But if you wanted to write about his childhood, you could only guess what he might have been like. You could get the setting, the clothes, the political climate, a WHOLE lot of things right based on facts. But you'd have to really create something from thin air on what he was like and that's fiction. You'd have to do a LOT of research to write a nonfiction book about adult Jesus, but you could pull it off if you didn't get too ambitious. You couldn't do more than guess about and 8-year-old Jesus.

Jan: So how could you apply this to someone we know a lot about like...Thomas Edison?

Kelly: You could do creative nonfiction on Edison's first romance, assuming you had some facts but not a detailed diary. You could write a straight nonfiction biography on Edison, the inventor we know today.

Kelly: Well, the Library of Congress has TONS of pictures now archived in the public domain. So that's a good place to start. And other photos indicate they are public domain. You could use the search term "dolphin photo public domain" and that would lead you closer to your destination, assuming you wanted dolphin photos.

Kelly: Very often, yes. Some of them prefer teachers, for obvious reasons. But it's a rich market for newer writers, yes.

Kelly: Not at all, as long as you made it clear you wouldn't cop an attitude if your editor opted to use someone else's pictures.

Kelly: If you took the photo, yes.

Kelly: Oh man, Dona, that was so long ago. I'm OLD ya know. : ) I think it was when I was about 35, which was about 15 years ago. 1990 ish?

Jan: Wow...you're five years older than me...I feel so spry suddenly.

Kelly: LOL...there you go. My work here is done.

Kelly: You know, for all these years, I haven't really used an agent. But once I'd built up my resume my friend Chris Crutcher started bugging me to get one. So I've JUST established a new relationship with an agent at Writer's House, the former VP of publishing at I don't think I needed one until now, but I'm ready to work a little more, so I think an agent can open doors I don't yet know about. I think with nonfiction, there is still room to succeed either way.

Kelly: In some ways, I liked ALBINO ANIMALS best, because I had no idea when I started it what the book would turn out to be. I knew I wanted to give kids with albinism something to hang on to, something pretty. But I wasn't sure what I was going to use to make that happen. It turned into this treasure hunt for stories about individual animals with albinism, and they were some great stories. I love it because the kids love it too.

Kelly: For me, I write to the kid inside me. In some ways, my development was arrested at about 12. LOL So I write to that kid in me, give in to the things I find cool or gross or just plain weird. I think if you look, you'll find that kid in you too. And that secret self will do a lot to guide you. Also, volunteer at your local library, hang out with kids in a safe, non-predatory way. That will bring you back to that kidstuff too. It's still there. You just have to let it out.

Kelly: Wow. I love Jon Scieszka. I love a nonfiction author named Marilyn Singer, her books are fun. I love anything that makes me do a double take. I've had the good fortune to interview so many famous authors, I've learned to love their work because I've seen who they are, behind the pages.

Kelly: If it's Highlights, yes. It probably is. I love writing for them, and they tend to build lasting relationship with writers and illustrators. So yeah, if I were you, I'd do it, Betty.

Kelly: Don't skimp on the homework. Don't go halfway just because it's for kids. Be MORE careful because it's for kids. They are depending on us to tell them the truth. Don't take shortcuts that might cost them.

Kelly: I have this thing I do, this define as I go habit, that makes it easier not to worry about reading levels. And it generally works for almost any age group. If you're writing and you are concerned the reader won't get the meaning, stop and define it. For example. ..."My dog, Gizmo is 23 years old. He can barely see because of cataracts -- cloudy film over his eyes caused by old age." You see the point. I can use tougher vocabulary if I can define it without slowing down the pace.

Kelly: Because your subject is African American, you'll have a little more luck than you might if he wasn't. It's better than it used to be, but there is still a gap in the realm of multi-cultural materials. I think you'd have a good chance to sell it, if whe whole story is compelling.

Kelly: If you can put a new slant on holiday subjects, you're in. I was really good at that, and it was really fun for me. But it's a great way to break in, because the standards have all been done, and Christmas comes every year, regardless. If you think up a fun, even weird holiday story, you'll be a hero to most magazine editors.

Jan: Have you give some examples of that?

Kelly: I did a story called DEAD END JOBS for Halloween -- about people who work with dead bodies all day long. I did one about reindeer ranching for Christmas. I did one on why we give hearts as a symbol of love for Valentine's Day. I did one on people who LOVE their turkeys for Thanksgiving...people who couldn't eat their turkeys who became their pets. I have always wanted to do one on how many (and how much of each) contaminates are allowed in each of our traditional Thanksgiving food items. You know, they say so many rat particles, so many human hairs, so much dust is OKAY in processed foods. I've always wanted to write about HOW much. LOL. Cranberry sauce, dressing, dinner rolls, turkey, roach legs, hair.

Jan: Now I'm never eating again.

Kelly: Sure sounds like it, Char. But if you're in doubt, it's okay to write or email her back and say, "Perfect for August? Does that mean it's accepted?" Don't be afraid to ask questions. If you're not a pest, your editors won't mind at all.

Kelly: You know, I use books as homework, mostly, then I do interviews with experts, because I'm so competitive, it's not enough for me to just report on OLD stuff. I want to know the very latest news on that great topic. I want to be the one that breaks that news. So for me, again, I'll use the books to make myself well informed for the article and the interview, but it's the one-on-one notes that make me feel like I've done my job.

Kelly: You hear it again and again, but that's because it's true. Be authentic. Be true to who you really are. We each have something special to offer in this business, because we are, each of us special in our own rights. So if you follow your bliss on topics, with an editor's preferences at the back of your mind, your work will have that distinctive imprint. And that will not be missed by a good editor. Be who you are, let that show in your work.

Kelly: I did all of that in the early days. The easiest things to sell are the briefs. You won't make a lot of money on them, but they are clips that help you build a relationship with your editor. Once there is trust, bigger assignments will follow. So I'd go with those in magazine markets.I don't like to take a lot of work for hire jobs now, but they helped me fine tune my craft in the day. So when you accept them, do it with that in mind. You're fine tuning your skills and your process so you'll be more polished.

Jan: Can you define 'briefs?'

Kelly: Most nonfiction magazines have a spectrum of features. Some are the two pages of text, lots of photos bylined features. But more ar the little briefs, almost captions under the compelling photo. For example, did anyone see the frilled shark they caught in Japan? Living fossil, they called it. It only lived a few hours, but it was a remarkable find. I could sell a brief on that to most kids science magazines, if I got right on it. So any of you might too. ASK! for example. When Katrina ripped the heart of of New Orleans, there were the dolphins washed over their aquarium tanks and lost at sea. I could have written a brief about how they were rescued...would make a great longer feature too. But you see what I mean. When it's NEW, there may not be time to generate a feature, but there is time to write a brief for the next issue. That's a great way to break in.

Kelly: On Google, in advanced search, you can use terms like "prehistoric horse expert" AND indicate that you want .edu in the responses. .edu means college campus. If your expert is a professor at SMU, bingo. If he can't give you the interview, his graduate student can. Finding experts is a lot easier than you think. Seek and ye shall find. *grin*

Kelly: Unfortunately, it can be. But brave up. Ask. Say something like, "I'm delighted my article has been accepted. Can I expect compensation, and if so, what are the terms?" Be professional, respectful. But ask.

Kelly: First person interviews. They are the most compelling. Then back up what the survivor says by interviewing experts. If it's sexual abuse, find a survivor (get parental permission if they are under age), then interview a therapist or psychologist who will give "them" a glimpse into the broader world of abuse.

Kelly: Well, there is a publisher called 'Magination Press that specializes in books for kids who have endured specific hardships. That would be one place to start. And you can contact special interest groups. They usually have book and article lists compiled about their specific missions. And if you have something specific you're hoping to find, email me and I'll help you find what you need. I'm a research queen, and I have a place in my heart for kids who are struggling to survive. If I can help, say the word.

Kelly: Well, for one thing, I'm a news junky. I love to watch cable news. And I have a pretty good sense of humor, so I have fun with the titles, especially with articles. I'm curious. I always tell the kids at school visits, if they make their parents and teachers nuts asking questions, they should consider being a nonfiction writer. Give in to your curiosity and keep a little notebook with you at all times. Before you know it, you'll have more ideas than you have time to write. Trust me.

Kelly: I've made enough to pay the bills for about eight years now. Making the transition from magazine work to books was harder. It takes a LOT more time to research and write a book. But if you are willing to really hustle, you can do it. Juggle a LOT of articles, and it can be done. Will you be rich? Not writing for kids. But you'll have fun. And that's worth something to. Oh, and school visits are a real help, if you do decide to turn to writing books. Thank goodness for school visits.

Kelly: I have a YA anthology coming out with Roaring Brook Press in 2008. And in it, I wrote a story in response to Crutcher's story. It's a he said, she said anthology. And HarperCollins has asked to see a novel based on another short story I submitted for an anthology Terry Trueman was putting together. The Trueman anthology got tanked, but they loved my story, so they've asked me to develope it into a novel. I'm working on it, so we'll see.

Kelly: I wouldn't force a relationship with them, but if you have fun with them, go out for icecream and eat it in the play place at McDonalds. Observe, absorb. That's a great way to remind you how YOU felt as a kid. Once you get in touch with little you, it won't seem so hard. But it's fun to do fun stuff with kids, whether they are your own or someone else's. Never hurts to go back into the kid trenches in this business.

Kelly: I just finished MYSTERIES OF THE MUMMY KIDS. I'm no archaeologist. But I LOVE the subject, and I went to the best mummy experts in the business. I read, I interviewed, I wrote. Then I asked them to review my text. My experts all agreed, because they knew I cared about their worlds. I have done the best I can to bring expertise to the book, even if it's not my OWN expertise. Does that make sense? Hope so.

Kelly: The early bird gets the worm. There are lost of people trying to be first, so the sooner the better.

Kelly: I've written briefs 50 words long. I've written briefs 100 words long. I've written briefs 250 words long. It depends on the magazine. So again, go to the library and make some notes. That way you'll know who wants what.

Kelly: It winds up being a pretty organic process for me. Because I'm full time, I'll let each task slide into the space where it happens. I do give interviews priority because without them I have nothing to write. But if I can't interview the expert this morning, I can revise the material I wrote about yesterday's expert. If I can't write, I can do a school visit. It tends to fall in place if you are flexible and set your priorities.

Kelly: Now, this isn't true for everyone, so let me say that first. But I didn't feel good JUST lecturing kids about what it's like to be a writer. So I started collecting objects, touchables, related to my books. I bring those objects, and I talk about how I put the books together, how those things fit into the process. Then at the end of my presentations, I let the kids line up to touch and experience them. To me, that makes for a school visit we can all enjoy. That and humor. Admit you're silly or weird, and mean it, they'll love you.

Kelly: I work on some aspect of my writing projects about 12 to 15 hours a day. My youngest is 16, so I can afford to do that without making her want ot kill me in my sleep.

Kelly: It's best to do both. More and more, publications are requiring taped back up. There was a lot of falsehood going around a few years ago, people saying they'd done interviews they actually made up. So it's best, if you can, to do both.

Kelly: You can, yes. Find a magazine that needs them and submit. You might query first, ask for permission to submit.

Kelly: Again, I tend to watch and read a lot of news shows and publications. And once you get in the habit, you'll find you have a lot of ideas too. Open your eyes, and suddenly, they surround you.

Kelly: Not really, not that I know of. But if you read the review journals, analyze them, it's not hard to learn. I did review for Booklist for along time, but that's a little frustrating. YOu get so few words. I prefer newspaper review options because you can do book FEATURES. But either way, read and analyze, and it's easy to learn.

Kelly: If you get a calm, a sense that, "Now I can tell this story," you've probably done enough...or almost enough. I read and read until the heart of the story takes shape in my mind. I lay in bed, composing the first paragraphs. I start to see how I want it to move forward. It becomes an almost living thing to me. Once I get that light over my head, I figure I'm ready. Of course, you have to do little bits of research when you get to those holes. What? There are bacteria in mummies? What bacteria...I better check." That kind of thing. But that's easy to go back and do. Once you get that calm, that knowing, you're probably good to go.

Jan: That was great! Thank you so much -- In the words of one of our chatters...

Kelly: Ahh, thanks Stretch. I hope you'll go out there and sell, sell, sell. Thanks for having me, Jan. It was a great pleasure. And if anyone has other questions, they can email me KellyMilnerH@aol.com -- I had a great time.