Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"How to Move Your Nonfiction Books" with Mel Boring

Thursday, August 26, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for fifteen years.

SPEAKER Mel Boring has published popular nonfiction with Random House, Walker, Dillon Press, Julian Messner, and NorthWord Press, as well as writing for top magazines like Cricket and Highlights. Mel knows how to sell nonfiction! Mel's latest book is Guinea Pig Scientists, about people who experimented on themselves when animals wouldn't do! Mel says "nonfiction sells about ten times easier than fiction."

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everybody! This should be a fun evening as we learn about writing and selling nonfiction from popular writer Mel Boring. He's published nonfiction books with five publishing houses, as well as writing nonfiction for top children's magazines. Mel is here tonight to share his secrets: how to put together an impressive submission package, how to streamline your research, where to submit unusual topics, and what to expect from editors. I'm really happy to welcome Mel Boring to our online interview tonight!

Speaker Mel Boring: Thanks for inviting me! I'll try not to be Boring tonight!

MODERATOR: Mel, you've written on a wide variety of subjects for many years. Have you always been a writer?

Speaker Mel Boring: No, I was first a classroom teacher after college in 1961 & 62, then I went to seminary for three years, and into the ministry for two, then it was back to classroom teaching in junior high. Then in 1976, I trained and spent a couple of years as a disc jockey in radio.

MODERATOR: What a variety! When did you begin writing for children?

Speaker Mel Boring: I was teaching in a one-room school in Michigan in 1968 where I had kindergarten through fifth grade, about two dozen students. I would read to them every day after lunch while they sat on the rug. I read CHARLOTTE'S WEB to them and that did it! I watched them react to just read-aloud words from no great reading voice. I watched them laugh at Templeton Rat, for example, and cry, when Charlotte the spider died at the end. I wanted to write books like that to do those things for children. I haven't written any books like E.B. White, but I'm only 60, so there's time left.

MODERATOR: Did you first publish nonfiction in magazines?

Speaker Mel Boring: Halfway right, I first published a story in a religious magazine called "What's Mine is Yours," about two twin girls who argued over one baby buggy from their grandmother. The magazine was Roadrunner, the story was 800 words long, and I received $10.00--WOW! Then after selling a couple of those kinds of stories, I wrote a nonfiction article about trucks and truck driving, because I'd done that during college. On a whim, I sent it to Highlights For Children and surprise of surprises, they bought it--paid me $70 in 1972.

Willie Willow Tree: Is it easier to get published in a magazine first?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes, and it's much easier, in fact, to also publish NONfiction first. I was surprised to read an adult author/publisher recently who said that in adult magazines, 80% of what they publish is nonfiction, but only 20% of what they receive is nonfiction, Willie Willow. In children's magazines, 90% of what they publish is nonfiction, but only 10% of what editors receive in submissions is nonfiction. So, those numbers should tell you that the easiest first step toward getting published for children is a MAGAZINE NONFICTION article. I have also talked to children's magazine editors who back up those numbers and some who never/seldom publish nonfiction because they don't receive much--and what they receive isn't that good.

MODERATOR: Excellent statistics! How encouraging to writers!

Steve: Then is it a good idea to sell to magazines first, even if you don't make a lot of money right away?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes, definitely. But there is a myth about books that you make lots of money from them. But I haven't found that to be true, and other book authors are saying the same thing. My first book (nonfiction) was SEALTH: THE STORY OF AN AMERICAN INDIAN and sold to Dillon Press, in Minneapolis, before they were absorbed by Macmillan. I received $300 TOTAL, one-time, flat fee for that book--pretty flat, huh, Steve? And that book and the second I did for Dillon, about Wovoka, probably sold tens of thousands of copies, for which I never received a royalty. HOWEVER, Uva Dillon herself, owner of Dillon Press, "held my writing hand" and really taught me how to write a nonfiction book. So what I received in experience and training was worth much more than $300.

MODERATOR: Let me back up one moment before we talk "books"...

Brenker: Mel, how do you narrow down the "right" magazine to send your article to?

Speaker Mel Boring: I first get the idea, rough-outline the article. For example, I wrote an article in 1992 about the building of the Hoover Dam. Studying copies of Highlights For Children, I saw that they had done other constructions, maybe were interested. So I sent the finished article to them, they were interested, but they said since they had done a "construction article" recently, could I wait about 2 years until they published it? I said yes, but ended up waiting about 3 years, Brenker.

Brenker: What about "creative nonfiction" where a factual story is told in a fiction way?

Speaker Mel Boring: Behind any nonfiction topic, there's a story, and it's STORY that people are most interested in reading, kids AND adults. If a subject doesn't happen to have a somewhat dramatic story, I wouldn't do it. But I've never discarded an idea for THAT reason. The Holland Tunnel, in New York, was begun by a young man who died long before the tunnel was finished. Someone had to be found to keep it building after Mr. Holland died. That's a heckuva story, dramatic.

Brenker: Is creative nonfiction still classified as Nonfiction?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes, if it presents a topic factually. Many editors look askance at, for instance, "invented dialogue" in nonfiction articles. When I wrote about Sealth, who became Seattle, Washington's namesake, I found only two books about Seattle, none with any dialogue whatsoever. So I did "invent dialogue" that I felt was faithful to the times and people in the book. When editors say they won't put in any spoken words that aren't substantiated, I ask how we know Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, when it was only scrawled by Abe on an envelope in outline form, and probably didn't come out like on his envelope. There were no recording devices, and yet most school children learn the Gettysburg Address and are sure it was delivered word for word by Abraham Lincoln JUST the way we memorize it in school.

MODERATOR: Fascinating!

Norene: I'd like to hear more about this factual material told in a fiction way--how to go about it successfully.

Speaker Mel Boring: You find the STORY in it, Norene, dig for that, find it however you can. In the raising of the Statue of Liberty, for example, about which I wrote an article for Junior Scholastic Magazine on its 100th anniversary in the late 1980's, I researched and researched, and couldn't find a single child who was involved in the actual unveiling of the statue, the pulling of the flag from Lady Liberty's face. Then I ran across a boy mentioned as the one who was to pull the rope at the proper time from the foot of the statue, to let the flag drop. He got tired of boring speeches by the politicians, and pulled the rope early. THAT's a great story. Just look for the story until you find it, and for a children's article, find the story of a child in the topic.

MODERATOR: Great story! Good advice.

DebO: To what extent do you go to substantiate your facts? Must you find it written in more than one place to take it as fact?

Speaker Mel Boring: If it's something that's likely to be controversial, I substantiate it in three places. If it isn't in three separate sources, and it's significant (such as the boy at the Statue of Liberty unveiling), then I won't use it. I do do very extensive research, over-research, much more than I suppose I'd have to do. But, for one thing, the material is for the most important readers of all--children. Secondly, I want to know the facts from having run over and over them in numerous sources so that I can just sit and tell someone (usually Carol, my wife) and my daughter and son, Katy and Zack. If I can just chat away and keep them interested, then I'm sure I can write an interesting book.

What about nonfiction subjects that won't work, wherein there's no story? Some time ago, I had the idea to write a book about umbrellas and our daughter Katy (who was 10 at the time) LOVED umbrellas. So I knew kids like her would be interested, so I began to research. In the reference book, CHILDREN'S BOOKS IN PRINT, I found no books about umbrellas. I also found no children's (recent) magazine articles about umbrellas. And I found no STORY about umbrellas. So I decided that my daughter was unusual (loves to walk with a bumbershoot in the rain!), but children in general apparently aren't interested in umbrellas, especially a whole book's worth!

Norene: So a good judge of a subject is whether or not it keeps the kids interested?

Speaker Mel Boring: YES, that's a good criterion for it usually. Now, a friend of mine, Ron White, wrote a book for children about the infrared. So apparently enough kids were interested in that to make the book reasonably successful. ALSO, a subject can, and needs, to be MADE interesting to children. With the infrared, for example, Ron wrote about planes flying with instruments that looked at the ground for infrared "hot spots," and the maps that showed them were very interesting.

Willie Willow Tree: Is it real important to know your target before you write?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes, although I usually don't consider the age range of children I'll be writing for until after I've at least roughed the piece, or book, out. What's happening during that time is, for one thing, I'm deciding if I'M interested enough in it to work on a magazine article about it for six months to a year or a book about it for YEARS. What's also happening is that I'm learning about the subject myself, like a kid, with what might be thought ignorant questions asked about the topic, and trying to get answers. The whole process of writing interesting nonfiction for children, I believe, is learning about the subject just as you hope/expect the children will, with the same questions, wonderings, reservations and objections children may have. So if I can get answers to satisfy my (childish) mind, I can satisfy children's minds.

Brenker: How do you present your references at the time you submit your article? Do you just state that they will be provided upon request?

Speaker Mel Boring: No, I provide a bibliography/SOURCES sheet with at least three articles and books I've read about the subject. I make them interesting enough pieces that if the editor looks them up and reads them...and she/he probably will... those magazine articles and books I've researched will appeal to the editor about the subject. Besides, it lets an editor know you've done your homework.

MODERATOR: Mel, your nonfiction books have covered subjects as varied as Indians, clowns, and "incredible constructions." Where DO you get your ideas?

Speaker Mel Boring: I got the idea for the Native American books from two sources: one is that I read BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE and was wounded by that book by Dee Brown. I cried to think that we actually, purposefully, subjected Indians to smallpox by infecting blankets we gave them as "gifts." And I laughed at the first American Indian jokes I'd ever read. And I was rather surprised to find that Indians had wives and husbands and children and grandparents they cherished. I suppose I was naive, I'll admit it. But that's the frame of mind that young children often have too. So I wanted to tell children what I'd learned--good and bad. Then second, right at that time, Dillon Press put a blurb in the Society of Children's Book Writers (it was just called then) that they were doing an American Indian series and wanted suggestions/submissions. So I queried them about Sequoyah because I'd written a magazine article about him. Uva Dillon wrote and said they had done Sequoyah already, would I be interested in Sealth? "Sealth?" I said to myself. "Who in the world was he?" But to Uva Dillon I said, "YES, when do you want the book?"

Brenker: I've noticed that many of your books are also about everyday animals and other things. Is this important? Can an unknown subject also make a good book?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes and Yes, Brenker! First of all, there is probably no subject kids love more, and at more ages than ... can you guess?...

Brenker: Bugs!

Speaker Mel Boring: Close! ANIMALS! So any animal topic is very dependable for an audience, especially during the age 7-9 range. By the way, Bugs is also very beloved by most kids, though of the three books I wrote for NorthWord Press, BUGS and BIRDS and RABBITS/SQUIRRELS/CHIPMUNKS, the one that has sold the most is BIRDS. My wife Carol was right about it before it happened.

kaaters: As we are starting out fresh, what kind of nonfiction subjects are editors looking for now?

Speaker Mel Boring: Animals, always and forever, for sure. But also anything that children are interested in, or that's current that you think they will be interested in. For example, my friend Terry wrote a book for Watts about Break Dancing. Does ANYone remember that? But in about 1978, Terry Dunahoo saw kids on the streets of Los Angeles Break Dancing, and decided a book about it was the thing to write. Watts has always been a publisher on the cutting edge of things, such as with Break Dancing when it was hardly a recognized dance "form." And the book did well. But wouldn't today, except perhaps writing about "Dances Kids Used to Do."

kaaters: As a writer starting out, what age group do you recommend, preschoolers or a lot older?

Speaker Mel Boring: I recommend the age 7-9's, and here's why. They are old enough to read well, most of them, and some of them do read. At age 7-9 they also have enthusiasm for things that seems to begin to wane after age 9 or 10. With younger children, say the preschoolers, you're going to be so confined vocabulary-wise and in sentence structure and length that it will be a very stiff challenge, while the 7-9's ' reading isn't so very restricted that way.

MODERATOR: Do you read children's nonfiction that is published today?

Speaker Mel Boring: Yes, as much as I can get hold of in the four libraries we use here. One reason I read it is that I like it. I've always liked to find out what makes things tick, how things got the way they are, how people became the people they were later in life. I guess what I'm putting a finger on here is that I am TERRIBLY CURIOUS. And I guess not everybody is, but I KNOW children are. When I saw the Statue of Liberty, I wanted to know how in the world they ever made her, over a hundred years ago now. And I think the peak of children's curiosity is that age 7-9 range. I have also talked to children in schools and libraries, and probed to find out things in a way that wouldn't solicit what they THOUGHT I wanted them to say. And what I found is that MOST of the children in that 7-9, grade 2 to grade 4 range are also extremely curious. I think without my curiosity, I'd be lost as far as writing books for children.

MODERATOR: When you get what you think is a great idea, how do you decide if it's really an idea worth pursuing?

Speaker Mel Boring: I begin of course to research it, with clear-cut steps. First I look it up in the encyclopedia, for a very general, shallow survey-type presentation, and WORLD BOOK is a favorite of mine for that starting research. If it is interesting in the dryness of an encyclopedia, then I begin to think I've got a good idea. Second step: I read all the children's books I can find about the subject. If there are a lot of them, then I'll consider not writing it. But mostly, I'm gathering "preliminary facts," kind of "easy nuggets" that are fun. If the idea still seems to be strong enough, I start gathering adult articles and books about it, and that is where my "official research" begins, because I'm going to include those SOURCES in any query letter I write an editor about the idea.

I think of that great book about Lincoln that won the Newbery Medal in, what? 1989. Lincoln is a subject that's been done to death, but the author came up with the idea of an essay presentation, with photos of and about Lincoln theretofore unpublished--and VOILA! A NEW book about an OLD subject!

I also think about a book about the Empire State Building. Would I write one? Probably not, because it's also been overdone. But David MacCauley did that great book called UNBUILDING, in which he imagined (and illustrated with drawings) that the Empire State Building was being dismantled. Talk about creative nonfiction... I don't THINK, last I knew, anyway, that they were thinking about tearing that building down. But MacCauley went ahead and "tore it down" in his mind, and I LOVE just even to look at the drawings he did for that book!

Brenker: I've got a couple of ideas for nonfiction books. Neither of my ideas are listed in Books In Print. Does this tell me that they are "bad" ideas? I think one of the ideas (endangered species) just doesn't have much information available in the public sector.

Speaker Mel Boring: No, it just tells you that they haven't been written about yet, at least as far as the BIP listings. So they may be marvelous ideas if they'll "work." There are books for children about endangered species, but there are enough of those, I believe, to go around for each of us to write about one, at least. Also, check out CHILDREN'S BOOKS IN PRINT because many children's books won't be listed in just BOOKS IN PRINT, Brenker. And if a subject doesn't have enough info about it in the public sector, that's a signal to me to "GO GET IT!"

When I wrote a book about clowns in 1978-79 there were NO WOMEN clowns to be found in any of my reading research, but I found two troops of women clowns in the Ringling Brothers & B & B Circus. They just hadn't "reached the literature" yet at that time. And that's where hands-on, body-to-the-places research can really pay off. Because what is the absolutely newest and freshest hasn't been written about yet, even in magazine articles. Although, the best place to find a really new topic, like women clowns in 1978 (besides in the R-3B Circus) would be magazines, rather than books, because it takes a lot longer for it to "come out in a book" than in a magazine article, of course.

Willie Willow Tree: How long does all this research take? What time limit do you give yourself for writing the article or book?

Speaker Mel Boring: For the CLOWNS: THE FUN MAKERS (for Julian Messner, who aren't around anymore) my research took me a year and a half, start to stop. The research may be limited by the editor's deadline. For example, Terry Dunahoo had some outrageously short time to research Break Dancing, like three months! But my deadlines have always given me at least six months, usually a year, sometimes longer.

Norene: Where does one go to find the most recent listings of books in print?

Speaker Mel Boring: For children's books, first CHILDREN'S BOOKS IN PRINT, which has three volumes, for subject, author and title. Then, and maybe even before that, a good children's librarian will be able to tell you about recent books that have been published, Norene. I think of librarians as the Angels of Bookmaking because they have saved my pork (bacon?) many a time. It was a children's librarian who suggested I write about clowns in 1977, in fact.

MODERATOR: How do you determine what age group is right for your idea?

Speaker Mel Boring: First write a rough draft. I have developed a sense for ages (probably because I've classroom taught in every grade, kindergarten through college) and read the draft aloud to yourself. That may give you some idea. Also read it to a child, or children, to see if and what ages respond well to it. Of course, with a writer's own children, they may give you answers they think you want. So I've talked to and read to my own two at-home children enough about what books are good, and which are not-so-good, that they know they can be book-critical too, and critical of whatever I write. I guess the "bottom line" for me on the question you're asking, Kristi, is my "feel for ages and interests" that I've developed. Although, I fear that here at age 60, with our two growing up and away like gangbusters, and me not classroom-teaching anymore, will I lose touch with children, and what interests they have at what ages? I think not, because I hear there are always ... GRANDCHILDREN!

MODERATOR: What role does art (drawings, photos, etc.) play in the success of today's nonfiction?

Speaker Mel Boring: A HUGE role, I think. My three books for NorthWord about bugs, birds and the three small mammals, are not great WRITING, I believe. It's okay, but the great selling secret of those three books, and the other five in that Take-Along series of science field books by NorthWord, is the ILLUSTRATIONS. Linda Garrow did them, and they are illustrations, NOT photos. And a nonfiction writer always worries about scientific accuracy in illustrations versus photographs. But Linda Garrow draws the most "artful photos" for her illustrations that kids and adults see those illustrations, on the cover and inside, and they fall in love, not with the text, but with Linda's illustrations. Now, granted, if the text were not clear, and/or not accurate, even such marvelous illustrations as Linda's wouldn't carry the books to success, so I think it's a combination of text and illustration, but the illustrations come first in the eyes of the reader, always.

Brenker: Do you get involved with the illustrative input while a book of yours is being prepared for publishing?

Speaker Mel Boring: No, I never have yet, Brenker. Linda Garrow was hired unbeknownst to us writers. In fact, the publisher preferred we didn't talk to her because publishers are, "protective" that way. I only knew Linda was illustrating our books when I saw the first proof sheets of the book and they had proof sheets of Garrow's illustrations.

Norene: Do you write to the illustrations or does the text always come first?

Speaker Mel Boring: For me, the writer, the text must always come first, since I didn't know who the illustrator would be, or even whether NorthWord would use illustrations or photographs. But what I did do, Norene, for CATERPILLARS, BUGS AND BUTTERFLIES, was to ask my two children to net bugs and butterflies so I could watch them, hold them in my hands, and get to know them just as I hoped young readers would get to know them.

VMK: Do you recommend doing sending illustrations or photographs with the manuscript, or will the editor ask specifically for those?

Speaker Mel Boring: If you are a professional illustrator or photographer (which I'm not) VMK, I would by all means submit sample illustrations or photographs, not an exhaustive number of them, but some of your best samples on the subject. Then, if the editor likes then, she/he will ask for more, and may ask you to illustrate the book, or provide your photos for it. But keep in mind that publishers have "stables" of illustrators and photographers that they have used, or will use. But if your illustrations/photos are competitive, send samples.

PLEASE GO TO PART 2 OF MEL BORING'S INTERVIEW NOW

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