Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. While red signals our guest speaker's responses. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: I'm delighted to have you as our guest this week...I admit it, I'm awed. NASA, books, and martial arts! You are seriously impressive.

Marianne: Hi Millie. My best advice about chosing a topic is to look to your interests and passions. These are topics that you will enjoy learning more about through reading and research. If you never sell anything you write about it, you will still have the knowledge you gained--and that knowledge will bring you joy. For example, spice gardens. Maybe you decide to learn more about the healing properties of tarragon. You check out some books from the library, read articles, talk to some Chinese medicine specialists. You write an article, get some photos, but alas, the magazine you targeted just bought one on a similar topic. You try another, and they say it is not of enough interest to kids. So that particular article doesn't go anywhere--but you enjoyed learning about it, so the time wasn't "wasted." And perhaps one of those contacts you made sparks the idea of writing about differences between Easterna and Western medicine, and off you go. As Jane Yolen said in her writing book, "Take Joy," we should take joy in the writing process because we don't control the publishing!

Marianne: One way to identify true interests is to make a list of what you spend more than an hour a week doing. These are the things that you consider worth your time enough that you make time for them! How many of us say we enjoy fill-in-the-blank, but when we get a day off or suddenly find ourselves with a free couple hours--is that what we chose to spend the time reading about or doing? From the above example, someone who is really into spice gardens will put off the shopping trip and head to the library for that book, anxious to learn more.

Marianne: In terms of determining if the topic will appeal to young readers, be sure to read sample copies of publications before writing for them--in fact, before writing at all! The difference between a professional writer and a hobbiest is that the pro will choose a market and then write, whereas the hobbyist will write and then look for a market. So do the research based on your interest, but don't write until you have a market in mind. If your market only wants 500 words and is read by 8 year-olds--then you don't need to go into as much detail as one that has a limit of 2500 words for young adults.

Marianne: My NASA experience didn't have much to do with my early sales. I took the ICL magazine writing course just after I'd left NASA. I planned to write science fiction for kids, but my instructor encouraged me to give nonfiction a chance. My first published article was one of my assignments--on how to get a job with NASA. So my background provided the topic for me, and has continued to provide topics because space is my passion. So actually my passion for space came first, and that drove my NASA experience AND my writing.

Marianne: Now, did my background make me more appealing to editors? I am sure it was a factor, but mostly in marketing for books, not for articles and stories that do not depend on the credentials or name recognition of the author for sales. But having been a magazine editor myself, I know that being able to write clearly and quote reliable, credible sources is the most important factor. Sometimes, I accepted articles from experts who were not writers because the readers of the publication want to hear their unique perspective. But whenever possible, I preferred to get a writer to interview those experts and provide background and explanations. Experts have a tendency to talk in jargon that needs interpretation. This is especially true in writing for children. Most experts have no clue how to write for kids.

Marianne: To be more appealing to editors, send in your query with a list of sources, photos, and interview subjects. An article or book proposal with quotes and photos will win every time over one without those things!

Jan: Now, as someone who has sold books with an without an agent. What do you feel are some of the biggest differences. I know we all think agents are the be all of the business, but I know most things in life are a mix of pluses and minuses. As someone who has sold books both ways -- what benefits do you see in not having an agent, any at all?

Marianne: I wondered if anyone would ask about the advertised topic of agents!

Marianne: First let me go over my experience with agents. I have had two agents. The first one I hired because I wanted to submit a book proposal to a closed house. This was a TV tie-in book. The agent submitted the book for me, and it was rejected in a week. So having the agent opened the door and sped things up. But then I asked the agent to market my nonfiction book--and that was a mistake. This agent admitted that she didn't have much experience with nonfiction, and as a result, she didn't have any better luck sending it around than I would have if I'd done it on my own. She didn't even save me any time. And, she didn't pass along the comments the editors made--depriving me of the feedback I needed to understand how to improve the manuscript. Instead, she interpreted their feedback and had me rewrite the book--which basically killed it. After more than two years spinning my wheels with this, I withdrew the book and terminated my contract with her.

Marianne: I sold my first book without an agent. I responded to a notice in the SCBWI newsletter about an editor at Scholastic looking for queries. I sent one, and she called me. She invited me to send a proposal, which I did. There were approvals and meetings, and I got a contract after about 5 months. I read up on contracts through the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America SFWA)--and used what I learned to negotiate a better deal for myself. Unfortunately, the option clause (that I had to offer them my next book) was ironclad for new authors, and I wanted to stay with Scholastic anyway, so didn't worry about it.

Marianne: Then my editor left right as my book went to print. I wrote a second book for Scholastic, but it was work-for-hire and didn't absolve me of the option clause. I proposed one book after another to no avail. The editor who had "inherited" me just wasn't into space, and that is all I wanted to write about! I finally found a topic that she liked, and spent 6 months researching it only to discover that there were no photographs available. So I decided to go ahead and write the book I wanted to do and take the chance she'd buy it. She rejected it. But this meant the option clause was satisfied.

Marianne: Not knowing what to do, and wanting to be careful not to burn any bridges with that editor, I hired another agent. But by the time we finalized our agreement, I had already sold a rewritten version of the proposal to my original editor, who had "surfaced" at National Geographic. The agent negotiated my contract, and got me a very good deal.

Marianne: I did that book and then I was contacted to do a series for an educational publisher. My agent negotiated that deal, too. But then I ran into trouble. The publisher decided that the book I turned in was at too high a reading level and had to be redone. But the next book was due, and it was obvious that one would also have to be redone. I realized I had to hand over 2 of the books in the series to another author in order to have time to redo the first two and write a third. But my agent would not let me do this. He wanted me to keep the money and stretch out the schedule. He got me a few weeks extension. It was soon obvious I could not meet the schedule. The publisher cancelled the series, and generously allowed me (and my agent, too of course) to keep the advances I had been paid to date. But I didn't care much about the money. I had let my agent get between me and my editor, and allowed him to pressure me into taking on more books than I should have.

Marianne: At that point I understood what an older writer had said to me about why she had let her agent go. She said that agents make you work too hard, and she wanted to enjoy her writing. The more books an author writes, the more money the agent makes. Of course the author makes more, too, so this is usually a good thing. But I had let myself take on too many books too fast. I had written a book quickly--my second book (Homework Help on the Internet) was done in only 8 weeks. But this series required research and interviews... and I just couldn't rush that kind of book and produce the quality of writing I expect of myself. If I hadn't had the agent, I would not have agreed to do 5 books, and if I had, I would have backed out of at least 2 of them as soon as the problem with the first became apparent.

Marianne: There were also some disagreements between me and the agent regarding the future course of my career. He wasn't much interested in nonfiction, and I was. I was also willing to work for educational publishers, and he didn't see those markets as profitable enough. I wanted him to market my science fiction, and he was not excited about it. So we parted ways.

Marianne: I can't say I've done better financially without an agent. I did a lot more consulting work than I probably would have done if I'd kept the agent. I also think I'd have gotten a better contract on my last book if I'd had an agent. But I'm not sure if I'd have gotten 15 percent of my advance better!

Marianne: In summary, I don't think I need an agent, and I don't recommend to new writers to pursue getting one. If the manuscript is not good enough to get an editor's attention, it will also not get an agent's attention. Getting a response from an agent can sometimes take almost as long as sending to an editor. And there is no guarantee that the agent will be able to sell the manuscript even if they take you on as a client, whereas an editor can offer a contract.

Marianne: My advice is to attend SCBWI conferences and sign up for critique. Get feedback from an editor or a fellow author. (Authors introduce writers to editors.) The opinion of a top agent should be taken seriously, but most writers have no clue which agents those are. If someone has their heart set on getting an agent, then I recommend looking for one who who has been an editor at a major house or an author published by multiple trade houses. Anyone can hang up a shingle and declare themselves an editor or author of their self-published book. Also, top agents will be members of the Association of Authors Representatives. Check the SFWA Writers Beware pages on scam agents: http://www.sfwa.org/beware/agents.html.

Marianne: Still, when it comes to fiction, I wish I had an agent to shop my book around. I've had a manuscript at Scholastic for 11 months now. (If you have been published by them previously, you don't need an agent to submit a manuscript.) I got a status card in September saying that it was being read. But I think if I had an agent, I wouldn't have to wait so long to get a response. So I contacted an agent in September. He told me my proposal was "perfectly fine" but there was no market for science fiction. I want an agent who believes in what I've written enough to find a house that will give it a chance to prove the "market" wrong. And until I find that person, I won't have an agent.

Marianne: But I'm still optimistic. I have lots of friends and fellow authors in SCBWI who know a lot more about what kids and librarians want than most agents. I won't be giving up on space or science fiction. But it is a real good thing my husband has a steady job .

Marianne: Reading is essential, but of course there is a lot more to do to become an established writer, such as write, write, write! Other writers have always told me to write every day, but unless you count email, I have never followed that advice. (Hmm, maybe if I had, I'd have 50 books out instead of 5?!) Instead, my goal is to learn something new every day. If I'm working on a book, I track down a fact. I read articles. I read a book and take extensive notes (this helps me remember and organize the information). I make a list of questions for an interview subject.

Marianne: But when I was first starting out, I did writing exercises. I had the wonderful experience of being in a poetry critique group with some outstanding poets (including a few poet laureates of Texas). Every week, we had an assignment and spent the first 15 minutes of our meeting brainstorming poems, describing objects using haiku, critiquing something from a publication, doing word webs, finding an analogy, creating two lines for a group sonnet, etc. We all produced work that was published as a result of these sessions (some of it is on my website under my "short stuff").

Marianne: I swear that learning the rules and applying the discipline of poetry made more difference to my writing (fiction and nonfiction) than anything else I did (besides read read read). I learned the power of choosing the right word and rhythm to generate the mood, stimulate the senses, and stir the imagination of the reader. So I recommend studying poetry and writing lots of practice poems. Don't worry about publishing them--write them for fun. Check out your state poetry society (Google Poetry Society of....) and get some poets together to critique each other's work for meaning. Did the reader feel what you meant for them to feel? What structure or word or meter would improve it? Try different formats and especially work on sonnets and limericks to get the rhythm down.

Marianne: Think of word limits as time limits. If the word limit is 500 words, then you have 5 minutes to tell your tale. The kind of tale you can tell in 5 minutes is very different from the one you can tell in 50 minutes (5000 words), or 500 minutes (8 hours of reading). Say you're a child in a car accident. The child is on a cell phone when it happens--and it is all over in 5 minutes. What will the child tell their friend? Assume that child was on their way to the final game of the soccer season and happens to be the star of the team. The story of how and why the child got to this point and what it will mean would not be included in the 5-minute story. But it would be included in the 50-minute one. It might be the opening scene or climax of a 50,000-word book.

Marianne: Don't let imagination be limited by word count. Just zoom in on one part of the story, and save the rest for another scence or a novel based on the story. I always have ten times more information than will fit into my stories or books. None of it is wasted. I use it to add detail to my characters and settings. Sometimes I turn the "extra" into an activity or history on my Web site. Or I change the name and setting and write a longer story that is similar for another market!

Marianne: I enjoy the challenge of the shorter forms. Creating mood through setting and adding sensory details by careful choice of words is something that I learned through writing poetry. Once you've written a bunch of sonnets, word limits won't be an issue. You will instead focus on the time span of the action and resolution of the crisis. Thanks for asking such good questions. I hope my answers are helpful to you.

Marianne: My first paid publication was an article about how to get a job with NASA. It was published in an adult magazine that was also read by teens. I've written many profile pieces, about the first woman flight director, astronaut Alan Bean as an artist, author Bruce Coville, and various other scientists--most of these for Odyssey magazine. I did the cover story (Poetry in Space) for an issue of Child Life that was about astronaut Story Musgrave. So I'd say that most definitely, career-related articles are easy to sell. In fact, I have a short talk that I've given several times at writers' conferences about breaking into children's publishing through writing profiles. All you need to do is identify a cool subject, do a little homework about their field, and then set up an interview. If you check the subject listing in the index of Writers' Market or the Children's Magazine Market, you will find dozens of paying markets for profiles. In my mind, profiles of people in different professions are essentially career articles. These pieces appeal to both adults and children who are curious about what it is like to be in that field.

Marianne: My Space and Astronomy: Decade by Decade book has a person profiled for each chapter. I did the interviews for two of these people, astronomer Vera Rubin by phone, and astronomer Geoffrey Marcy in person. I took the photo of Marcy that was used in the book. All the magazines I have done profiles for required photos of the subjects. Usually, they want a photo showing the person "in action" or at work (I took one of Alan Bean with his unfinished painting), but a head shot will work if the profile is in a sidebar of an article that is about their discovery or invention or job. If the subject does not have a professional photo, take it yourself. And even if they have a photo, take some yourself because if the publication uses your photo, you get paid extra! I invested in an expensive SLR digital camera (that paid for itself through sales of images), but I have found that my "point-and-shoot" camera can also take magazine-quality photos, especially if I take them outdoors (indoors, the cheaper cameras tend to cause red eyes because the flash is not offset). If you take photos outside, take the photo in the shade. Full sun casts too many sharp shadows.

Marianne: Magazines (and books) require 300 dpi at the size used. Unfortunately, you need a program such as PhotoShop to tell you what dpi the photo is. However, you can be pretty sure it is good enough quality by the file size. For a JPEG, a photo that is around 2 MB is probably 300 dpi at 8 inches. I generally use the camera mode that generates 3-4 MB files so that I can crop the images if I need to. Photos are not generally used larger than 8x10, so high quality mode will work as long as the image does not need to be cropped (zoom, but don't use digital zoom--that reduces resolution). Set the camera on high quality mode. (You don't need TIF mode or RAW unless you are a professional photographer who plans to do something artistic with the image.) JPEG formats are fine and much fewer MB--making them easier to transmit to editors. Fill the frame with the person so their face will be clear. Always take multiple images from different angles (shoot, take a little step to the side, shoot again) because cameras will sometimes pick up reflections that you don't notice. For face shots, have the person turn one shoulder forward so the photo won't look like a mug shot!

Marianne: I bet there are a lot of children who would be interested in learning more about IT careers--especially those who read "Little Brother" by Cory Doctorow! That book was fabulous. My husband is ITSM (oops, geek speak translation: Information Technology Security Manager) for Johnson Space Center, and after I read that book, I knew a lot more about what he has to deal with every day.

Marianne: First of all, good for you! You submitted your work, and that is an accomplishment to be proud of. Rejections show that you a) are able to finish a story, b) prepare it for submission, c) have enough sense to include SASE, and d) are taking your work seriously. I know it is disappointing to get a rejection, but 95 percent of everything submitted is rejected. I have whole file cabinets full of rejected stories and poems. Knowing that I was not alone in this process was how I got through it. Just before my first book won the Golden Kite award, I had submitted a new book to Scholastic. After I heard I'd won, I thought for sure the editor would say yes to my new proposal. But she rejected it! I went to the SCBWI conference thinking that I was a flash in the pan--that it was all over for me. This editor had suggested a new project for me, writing captions for someone else's translated book. Sigh. Was that all the talent she thought I had? I was ready to give up writing and go back to aerospace!

Marianne: : But at the SCBWI conference, people kept saying how happy they were that a science book had won in nonfiction... how I was a good role model for girls...and when was my next book coming out?! I talked with other authors. They encouraged me to send the proposal to my former editor (who had changed houses). I did. She bought it. That book won the AIP science writing award. So, take those rejected stories and poems and workshop them with other writers. Join a critique group. Write some new stuff for the same editors who rejected your other work. Try again. And again. Read market reports. Pick a few to really focus on, and write specifically with them in mind. Beat on their door until they finally answer! And know that you are not alone. You can do this. Don't give up!

Marianne: My son had his first story published (in an anthology) when he was 3. He was paid $10! I had to type it for him and mail it, but it was his work. So obviously the answer is no, you don't have to be an adult. Contracts require a parent or guardian or agent to sign for a minor, but otherwise, there is no restriction. There are some markets such as Stone Soup and Merlyn's Pen that are ONLY for young writers.

Marianne: I actually have not written too many personal experience pieces, though as my space shuttle experiences become history (am I really that old!), I am considering sharing more of them in articles. Whether these true tales will thrill anyone, I don't know! Mostly, I've turned real-life experiences into fiction, such as the various failures I experienced during flights with my husband (who is a pilot) that turned into short stories (one is currently available in Best of Girls to the Rescue). I didn't find writing these stories difficult--they were easier than making something up "from scratch." I found the real-life experience of an emergency landing after an engine failure not just difficult, but life-threatening!

Jan: JAN: You gave us so many wonderful things to think about and helpful bits of info...this is going to be an excellent transcript. Thanks so much for sharing with us. And I hope you're science fiction novel sells soon so I can read it...I don't see enough good science fiction for young people.