with Louise McClenathan

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this interview with Louise McClenathan and web editor of the ICL Web Site.

Mel: I have never met tonight's Chat Guest in person, but by talking to people who have met Louise McClenathan, I have come to know that Louise is one of the foremost authorities about children's picture books living today. Louise began writing as a child, and then began writing professionally when she was a Reading Specialist in grades K-6 in the Fairfax County Virginia schools. She first published Good Wife, Good Wife with McGraw Hill Publishers, under the pen name of Louise Dickerson. Under her own name, Louise has published The Easter Pig and My Mother Sends Her Wisdom. The Easter Pig was nominated for Georgia Picture Book of the Year, and My Mother Sends Her Wisdom was chosen as one of the 100 Best Designed Books of The Year by the American Institute of Graphic Arts, and was a Weekly Reader Book Club Selection, and was also reprinted in two elementary school reading series. Louise, tonight it will be WELL worth the wait since the first time I invited you to be our guest. A WARM WELCOME to the chat room, friend!

Louise: Mel, it's great to be here with you and fellow writers, but I'm not sure I can live up to that great billing!

Mel: You WILL, I KNOW! Louise, were there writers in your family growing up, or were you the first?

Louise: I guess you would say that we were all voracious readers. My father's mother wrote some beautiful essays when she was young. She passed on her love of poetry to my father. He used to recite long poems (and short) to me when we worked in the gardens. I wasn't ever conscious of using any splendiferous words, but sometimes he would flip me a dime and say, "That's a ten-cent word, Louisie." I never earned beyond twenty-five cents. He was a great storyteller—told all the old tales using the voices of the characters.

My mother told tales of our grandparents and great-grandparents. I guess I came by the love of words this way.

Mel: What a SPLENDIFEROUS legacy from your father! When you started to write, then, did you write poetry at first?

Louise: Yes, I wrote poetry when I was about eight years old. Short poems, but the family encouraged it and teachers liked it.

Mel: Then you went on to college to become a teacher, didn't you?

Louise: Well, I majored first in English Literature. After some secretarial jobs, and some jobs in writing, I decided I really loved kids and would like to teach them. So I had to go back to school and get a Master's Degree in Education.

Mel: What were those writing jobs BEFORE you started writing for children, Louise?

Louise: I worked in New York for two years (and saved two dollars!). I had a public relations job, writing for a presidential campaign. When the campaign ended, I worked for a magazine and wrote a column on new foods.

Mel: Presidential campaign writer, columnist, nutrition writer—you've done it ALL!

Louise: Well, it wasn't easy and I never became a millionaire. But that's not my first focus.

Mel: Have you taken courses in writing along the way?

Louise: No, but I've been in writers' workshops. I just led one myself about a year ago on writing for children.

Mel: When did you actually begin writing for children?

Louise: When I taught fourth grade, I wrote some stories for children and some poems, and sent them to a children's magazine. I think this was my stepping stone to writing and publishing children's books, because one of the magazine poems was picked up and included in an anthology for children.

Mel: From writing poetry to writing picture books, is that a natural transition?

Louise: It was when I became a Reading Specialist that I began to write picture books. I think it is a natural transition to go from poetry to children's books. They're often poetic.

stephenie: How do you know if your piece would be better for a magazine or for a picture book?

Louise: There are some great stories written today, but the picture book today is so hard to crack that a writer's best entree may be to magazines. It builds up your credit, so a book editor knows you can write, and have a track record.

Louise: if you're trying magazines, study the Institute of Children’s Literature's Best of the Magazine Markets and their Magazine Markets for Children’s Writers. Study the magazines in your library. Check out guidelines for magazines on the Internet. If you're trying to do a book, that's a whole big other market study.

amyheimbach: Why is the picture book so hard to crack?

Louise: Ok, this is going to be a loooong answer, telling you where the picture book market has been and where it is now. Before the 1980s, the picture book was a longer book—over 1,000 words. The story stood alone, but was enhanced by the pictures. Good readers could read the story by themselves. Less able readers had the story read aloud to them by parents or teachers. Of course, every reader, able and less able, loves to have a story read aloud. These picture books had plots—the character faced a problem (beginning), the problem escalated (middle), the problem was solved and the main character grew or was changed in the process (end).

In my way of thinking, this is still the recipe for really good books. But a couple of things happened in the publishing world in the early 80s. First, the IRS made a new ruling that publishers could no longer write off their unsold inventory. Before that law, publishers had been able to keep books on their shelves even though they were no longer great sellers. Both adult and children's books suffered.

What editors began to seek were the blockbusters, both in the adult’s and children's markets. Then too, in the mid-to-late 80s, huge conglomerates gobbled up the smaller independent publishers, and making money was their main focus. Now, before that, an editor had favorite illustrators and s/he looked for a manuscript to come in that would suit a favorite illustrator. That didn't change, but with the focus on BIG-selling books, editorial changes came about. Celebrities were hot sellers—books by Madonna, and recently Lynn Cheney, and Lady Sarah Ferguson (Fergie) sell well. Also, in the late 80s, early 90s, more women began to enter the workplace. Editors decided parents didn't have time to read aloud to children (maybe some of the younger editors fit this bill).

So picture books as they HAD been went out and the shorter, 1,000-words-or-less "picture story book" came in. Parents would read toddlers the very short board books. The new "picture story book" didn't often stand alone without the illustrations. The pictures were the main draw. Stories often didn't have a plot—just a series of events that didn't impact the main character much. Also, editors found it easy to publish the illustrator-author.

Mel: So the WRITER who could also ILLUSTRATE, was sought out then?

Louise: Absolutely. Norman Bridwell's Clifford, the Big Red Dog is a good example.

Mel: EXCELLENT analysis, Louise!!! So, it seems that NOW, the greatest effort is put into money-making in children's books. But in years past, the effort was put into producing QUALITY books—is that one of the things you’re saying?

Louise: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some of today's picture books are great, but I think many of them won't stand the test of time.

Mel: Why are picture books today primarily focused on the pictures? Is it just because of the importance of the VISUAL nowadays, or is it possibly because kids have more trouble reading words these days?

Louise: I think it's some of both. We're a visually-oriented society with TV. It's possible that attention spans have become shorter. We certainly could improve reading scores, and I've talked with middle-grade teachers who say that kids can't visualize scenes from the printed word.

Mel: Do you think, then, that "going out of vogue," as has been said of picture books, has to do, not only with the "fast foods" generation, but children's decreasing abilities in reading?

Louise: Yes, I think that's part of it too. I read recently that the current style of "picture book" format is going out. Now that I've learned to pare down to 1,000 words or less, I’ve got to learn to pare down even further—to zero words? J

Mel: You mentioned celebrity books a moment ago. Comment, if you will, Louise, on the raft of celebrity children's books of late, their quality, and how and why that kind of book comes about.

Louise: I think we're a celebrity-oriented society—there's a thirst for autobiographies of celebrities and political figures, and it seeps down into the children's book world. That's not to say it's all bad—Bill Bennett, the former White House Cabinet member, re-did the old tales as Book of Virtues, and it became a TV series. And I think Lynne Cheney's history alphabet book is great.

Mel: Publishers want easy, automatic name recognition, it seems. They are less willing to take chances than previously, is that true?

Louise: You're right. That's because they're measured by how well the books sell.

caq: Do these celebrities who have all of a sudden become published authors actually write the books or do they have someone else write and just use their name for sales?

Louise: That's an excellent question. We all know that ghost writers write for celebrities. I don't know the answer.

mbvoelker: I'm particularly interested in board books and concept books. What can you tell me about those categories?

Louise: Board books and concept books are still a very good category. I know a local author who wrote a 22-word story for a magazine. You might call it a concept book. The magazine didn't keep all rights, and it was picked up by a major publisher. Parents want their children to succeed in preschool, etc., and board books and concept books are a part of that success formula.

Nancy Walker: In what ways do you think the picture book industry has changed the MOST over the last TEN years?

Louise: The emphasis on pictures, not the story. I don't want to discourage any of you from writing a good picture book or a "picture story book" as the old format is now called. It's just a tougher market to crack, and you must study markets, editors, and publishing houses very carefully. Also, have more than one well written story to submit. If you keep sending, they know you're a serious writer.

Mel: A change-of-pace question now, Louise, about some of your writing research:

g_logger: It is truly amazing, the work that you have done in the field of genealogy research. Your research about and around the Whiskey Rebellion was ground-breaking! Is there any recent news of Presley Neville's 1803 letter? In researching for your interview this evening, I saw that it was donated in 1950, do you know by whom?

Louise: I'm amazed that you discovered my history love. I'm researching the Whiskey Rebellion because it's such a mystery to many people. We don't know who donated the document.

Louise: Nope. I'm not on the Neville family tree. Every family has an archivist, and I'm it. I leave it to my nephew to write the history. But I may turn out a few books on aspects of history. I have two children's books in the works right now.

Nancy Walker: What genres of manuscripts (for example, inspirational, humor, multicultural, concept) do you think are more in demand by publishing houses these days? Less in demand?

Louise: Humor is always a great draw. Multicultural is also being sought. I think inspirational is needed, and greatly, if you can do it. Humor is hard, but everyone loves a good laugh. I love Jack Prelutsky's zany poetry for that reason. There's something I want to add, which is also about that history question. When you get discouraged in trying to market your fiction or nonfiction picture books, write some simple stories about your growing-up days, for your family. Grandkids and nephews and nieces love them. You can tell all the funny and strange things about those brothers and sisters you grew up with. Cynthia Rylant turned her growing-up years into a great book—When I was Young in the Mountains.

Mel: "Zany poetry," what a GREAT summary of Prelutsky's, and of Shel Silverstein's poetry, too! And you gave a GREAT suggestion to get us writing—THANKS, Louise!

margieh: Were the pre-1980s picture books what we would call picture story books now?

Louise: Yes, the picture story books of today were the picture books of yesterday.

margieh: Are picture books, by nature, poetry?

Louise: Many of the good ones are. I mention Cynthia Rylant again. I spoke of one of her books, When I was Young in the Mountains. I also love Cynthia Rylant’s The Relatives Came.

Mel: BOTH Louise's and MY computers are freezing up tonight. Maybe it's the COLD where we each live! But please bear with us and wait, if the questions AND answers seem slow in coming!

Louise: If I type slowly, it seems to help.

Mel: GOOD, Louise, I'll try to type more slowly myself!

g_logger: The deGrummond collection has Rosekrans Hoffman's original illustrations for My Mother Sends Her Wisdom. What was your first reaction when you saw them?

Louise: A writer always imagines the pictures as the story is written. Yes, I was surprised—I thought of a little blonde Russian girl, but Hoffman's illustrations were outstanding. There's a part of Russia that is exactly like she pictured it.

Mel: BOTH your writing and Hoffman's illustrations led to your book being an award-winner, I believe, Louise. Talk about your awards for a moment, will you, please?

Louise: Well, I consider myself lucky. I first sent Wisdom to Houghton Mifflin, and they rejected it. I'd sent a few stories to Morrow Jr. Books, and they, too, had been rejected. Then Morrow accepted Wisdom. It got very good reviews (original story in folk tale format) and the publisher submitted it for the American Institute of Graphic Arts Book Award. Eight hundred books were submitted, both adult and children's categories. Wisdom was one of the 100 best designed books of the year. Morrow later submitted The Easter Pig and it was nominated for the Georgia Picture Book Awards, though it didn't win. Still, I felt honored.

Mel: Did I read that the idea for My Mother Sends Her Wisdom came out of your family history?

Louise: No, the story was inspired by a friend whose mother grew up in old Russia. Her father owed money to the bank in the village, and sent her through the forest with two white geese to pay the loan off. The geese got away from her; she was frightened, but finally made it to the bank. The image of that little girl and two white geese stayed in my mind until I built a story around it.

Mel: I LOVE the way Hoffmann's illustrations COMPLEMENT your text, with those circular and oval drawings that have such excellent little flourishes! It makes such a LIVELY book, Louise. In the process of making that book, when, exactly, did you first SEE Hoffman's work on the illustrations for your book?

Louise: Well, when you have checked the galleys for accuracy (your last chance to make changes) the editor sends you the illustrations separately. I've met Rosekrans Hoffman—she's an amazing artist.

Louise: I'm not sure there's a precise demand for more in either category. I suppose the age 2 to 5 books are shorter, and less expensive to print. A really good story will find a home even if it takes years.

Louise: Well, chapter books have become the standby for good readers of ages 6 to 8 who can read well. Of course, there are few illustrations and these are often black and white. Yet good picture story books are still being published. Margaret Hodges turns out retold folk tales regularly—in 2002, at age 91, she published a Chinese tale.

Louise: I only had hope. When the editors began sending me clips of book reviews, I then got very encouraged. I must tell you that I turned down an offer to publish my first picture book because I didn't think the illustrator they chose was right for it. I guess I would still do the same thing, but it took guts to say no.

Mel: YES, that WAS gutsy, Louise--CONGRATULATIONS on your COURAGE!

caq: I think I remember something about word count limits per page in a picture book. Is that true and does that make it more difficult to write than sticking to a manuscript word limit?

Louise: I don't know about word counts per page, but I know that if you break up your story into page-turning sequences, it helps. Dummy your book—paste it up in the 32-page format—and see where you think the illustrations should fall with the printed words.

Louise: No, I don't know of any offhand. Study the Institute of Children's Literature’s Book Markets for Children’s Writers. Also, try the Internet, putting in "author guidelines children's books, houghton mifflin," or some other publisher. You will pull up a lot of useful marketing information.

Mel: Louise, if, in spite of the sagging market, I STILL want to write and publish a PICTURE BOOK, how exactly do you go about figuring out what to write and how to write it?

Louise: I've always believed that each of us has a best seller in our own lives if we could only write it. First, what stories do you love to read? Think about what draws you to these stories. You may find that a story will come out of your own life! Then write it as it happens.

Mel: Do you ever get book ideas from your own real life?

Louise: I was lucky with my first book, Good Wife, Good Wife. I wrote it about my last beau, only I didn't know my last beau WAS my last beau! He was always telling me how to do things, so I wrote the simple story about a husband who was always telling his wife how to do things. She eventually had him doing all the work so she could learn to do things "just the right way." Write your ideas, and your stories. Revise, revise, revise. And hope.

Mel: Does a bookstore like Borders ever give you good book ideas?

Louise: Well, I'll tell you a good marketing technique. When you've studied some guidelines for authors from the Internet, and the Institute of Children's Literature’s Book Markets for Children’s Writers, and SCBWI's "Publisher's Corner" by Connie Epstein in their Bulletin, get a pack of 3x5 index cards and go to your bookstore. Pull books from publishers (try to get books published in the last 3 years) and rank them from 1 to 5 as to how you like them. Sort your pack and see which publishers seem to be publishing books you like to read. Try sending your own manuscripts to theses houses, and hope the editor hasn't moved to another publishing house. These days editors change houses as often as they change their shirts.

Mel: You’re absolutely RIGHT, Louise! If the questions and answers seem slow to come out, we're having glitches tonight with our computers--patience, please, I guess it's because it's so cold outside!

mbvoelker: What separates the outstanding picture books from the mediocre ones? It is having the plot and such that you said are often now lacking? A special sort of fit with the artist? Or what?

Louise: I think it's the illustrations that drive what editors choose as an outstanding picture book. Of course, a great story with a good plot should find a home, but it's often hard. Book buyers are drawn to the pictures, first.

donnalouise: When submitting a picture book manuscript, does one type it out all together with no page breaks?

Louise: You can do it either way, but if you see distinct page breaks, you might send it in that format.

robync: What is the best binding to use for a dummy picture book?

Louise: I think a nice heavy card stock will work well for a binding. I sometimes laminate the cover.

amyheimbach: Do ever receive rejections anymore?

Louise: Oh, my, yes. Often. But if I had one word for writers, it would be "persistence." Never give up, even if it means you turn to article writing, or poetry, for a while. I've done a lot of newspaper writing in the past few years, on topics which interest me.

dydy: Louise, do you submit pieces simultaneously?

Louise: It depends on the publisher. Some think it's OK, some don't. When possible, I submit simultaneously. However, it may get a quicker read if you tell them you're giving them an exclusive for two months. And do tell them if you're submitting simultaneously.

Louise: Of course, the editor picks the illustrator. You can check out the illustrator's other books to see if you like them. I've been lucky with illustrators. I also have met and talked with Rosecrans Hoffman, but only after our books were published. I think you can suggest an illustrator in your

cover letter if you find one that seems to fit your manuscript.

casey: cavie is trying to ask this question: I wrote a short story on bettas for my second assignment and I think that it would do well with illustrations. Do you agree?

Mel: THANKS, casey, for sending cavie's question on!

Louise: What do you mean by "bettas"?

Mel: I THINK bettas are a kind of tropical fish, Louise, sometimes called Siamese fighting fish. The weather is COLD; let's all think WARM thoughts to UNfreeze Louise's computer—to UNfreeze Louise!

Louise: You did it, Mel! I think a story or a nonfiction piece on tropical fish would do well with illustrations. If I didn't know what they were, I'd love illustrations!

Mel: Louise, it looks as if someone moved the clock ahead two hours tonight by suddenly turning the hands! The time has passed swiftly, as I was sure it would, chatting with you. You have explained so much to us about children's picture books, their background and the market for them, both yesteryear’s and today's. THANK YOU for sharing your great and enduring wisdom! It has taken a well-worth-it two years to bring you to our ICL Chat Room; and still, you can see there are many questions left over. So I want to ask you, would you be willing to come back and chat with us again someday, to answer the next round of questions we will surely come up with, please?

Louise: I would love to. And here’s one last item, from an anonymous author:
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not: unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are most important." Think on that! And thanks for having me.

Mel: THANKS for that great quote, Louise! Our next Chat Guest will be Lois Lowry, a two-time winner of the Newbery Medal for the year's best book for children. Lois won the Newbery Award in 1990 for Number the Stars, then again four years later in 1994 for The Giver, the first in a trilogy of books including Gathering Blue and Messenger. Lois is also the author of the highly popular Anastasia Krupnik series. Lois Lowry is likewise a very popular and entertaining speaker, who spends MUCH of her time traveling and speaking about writing for children. Lois's sense of humor that abounds in her talks will also come out in your chat with her. Lois Lowry will be our Chat Guest at the next ICL Guest Chat on the evening of Thursday, January 20. You will want to be here to meet this two-time Newbery winner—"see you" then!

Mel: Once again, Louise McClenathan, it has been so rewarding to have you as our picture book Chat Guest this evening. Now the majority of us children's writers, who have always wanted to publish a picture book, will be wiser in that quest because of your sharing of your wisdom and expertise in picture books. We wish you well in the continued healing of your hand, and also in your success as a children's author. Thank you so MUCH, Louise, for being here this evening!

Louise: The pleasure was mine.

Mel: Goodnight, everychildren'swriter!

Louise: Goodnight, everyone.