Institute Childrens Literature

Rx for Writers

Transcripts

"Lighten Up: Humor in Middle Grade Fiction" with Mary Ryan.

Thursday, October l4, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Mary is our guest speaker, Mary Ryan. Mary knows how to tickle the funny bone of this most receptive age group. "I'm not sure why," Mary says, "but I developed a rather quirky way of looking at life early on. Most all of my writing reflects that, including my six published novels [with Little, Brown and Avon] and even the newspaper and column work I've done." Mary Ryan knows humor!

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everybody! Welcome to the Institute's Thursday night special event! I'm your moderator, Kristi Holl, the web editor of this site. This evening we'll be hearing from Mary Ryan, author of six published novels, who believes truly that "laughter is the best medicine." Most of us can spot humor in writing, but creating humor is something else entirely! Tonight Mary will share some of her secrets for writing in this always-popular genre for middle grades. Hello, Mary!

Mary: Hi, everyone.

MODERATOR: Mary, you're well known for your humor books, but first, let's go back to the beginning of your writing career. I see that you've published in magazines like Boys' Life, Cobblestone, Highlights, Writer's Digest, and Catholic Digest. Is this where you got your start?

Mary: Actually, I got started in sixth grade when I won some kind of prize. I also wrote in high school and won a prize. Then I didn't write for a while, but finally got into newletters and newspapers.

MODERATOR: You also were a stringer for a newspaper, right? What did you learn there?

Mary: How to cut and generally trim my writing. I thought initially it would hurt my writing, but it didn't at all.

MODERATOR: When did you start writing humor, Mary?

Mary: Hmm. I don't really remember, but my first piece of published humor was in the 70's, I think.

Willie Willow Tree: Did humor always come through your earlier (shorter) work?

Mary: Yes, it did. I just have a rather acerbic eye, I guess.

MODERATOR: What do you enjoy about writing humorous books?

Mary: Well, it's just fun. There are times when I just laugh at my own stuff. I don't mean that in a stuck-up way. It's more like "Now where did that come from?"

KarenO: Has humor writing changed since the '70's when you started? If so, how?

Mary: It's gotten a lot more bathroomy, if that's a word. And that's a humor I don't particularly care for. (Although privately I can keep up with the best!)

Willie Willow Tree: Did humor come natural for you Mary or did you have to work on it?

MODERATOR: Why is humor in children's books important?

Mary: It's pretty natural, I think. You can learn some of it, but you need the kind of ability to see things in a cockeyed way.

MODERATOR: If you're not much of a comic, but you'd like to write humor, can you "train" yourself to see humor in the world around you? How?

Mary: Yes, I think you can. You need to turn things upside down, so to speak, and ask yourself what would happen if things were the other way round.

Ducky: Do you purposely write humor or does your writing just tend to be funny?

Mary: I can write seriously, if I want to. An example of what I mean by looking at things upside down is my first published prose, which was a make-believe letter from a woman whose family was the "Before" owners of a magazine's Before and After story. I got wondering what it would be like to have lived in the place when it didn't look quite so spiffy.

MODERATOR: Is it hard to write humor on the days you don't "feel funny"?

Mary: Sure. Some days I don't even want to write anything! But if I can focus myself in my work, I can usually come up with decent material.

christine collier: What is funny to one person may not be to another; how do you combat it or do you use your own sense of what is funny?

Mary: You're quite right in that humor is a subjective thing. I usually just write what I want and hope it hits a kindred soul.

Willie Willow Tree: Is humor only a point of view . . . or can it be universal?

Mary: It depends on the humorist. Mark Twain and Dave Barry are pretty universal--except maybe for Dave Barry's booger jokes.

Nessa: How can you tell if the humor is too mature for an age group?

Mary: If you get blank stares. That means they just don't get it. But there can be different levels in the same piece. Winnie the Pooh is beloved by both children and adults, but not necessarily for the same reason.

MODERATOR: Can humorous touches work in serious pieces? How?

Mary: Mary Jane Auch's book FROZEN SUMMER is a great example. The whole story is bleak, but there are light touches to keep the reader from only seeing (and feeling!) depressed.

MODERATOR: One moment, everyone. Mary would like me to post an excerpt for you to show some humor in a more serious story. Here goes . . .

Mrs. Foster pulled herself up taller and glared at the row of bottles behind the bar. "As long as there are sinners in this world, we'll all be punished for it. If you were a godly man, Major Ballard, you'd take those wicked bottles and pour them into the creek."

Major Ballard laughed again. "Now wouldn't that make for bunch of happy fish. They'd probably be so liquored up, they'd jump right into my frying pan." (END)

Mary: So, you can see where there's room for a bit of levity even in stories that aren't really very funny at all.

Maudy: Are there some topics that would be considered off limits for this age group? What topics CAN be used in humor?

Mary: Well, I think humor about death or sex probably wouldn't be appropriate because the audience doesn't have enough background to be able to see the funny side. Almost everything else is fair game.

MODERATOR: Is a child's sense of humor different than an adult's?

Mary: Sure. Middle graders are great ones for bathroom humor, younger readers like silly stuff, and the very young are hard to write humor for, since you need a sense of what should be before you can appreciate how it COULD be.

Ducky: What is the best way to learn what humor appeals to a specific age group?

Mary: Read, read, read. Read what the kids are reading. Rowling's HARRY POTTER books are pretty funny. I love Nearly Headless Nick! Poor guy can't get accepted into the Headless group because a small flap of skin is still connected. And he invited Harry and friends to his Deathday Party--the opposite of a birthday party.

jello: So . . . if humor "just happened" for you, what did you write before?

Mary: Oh, some terrible teenage poetry, and depressing stories about war and loss. I may have been because my dad had died when I was 12. I eventually dealt with it so that my real persona came out.

jello: Do you read a lot or do you just draw from what you have learned (since you're experienced)?

Mary: I read constantly. Never without a book. I do read a lot of mysteries, but even then, I like humorous writers like Donald Westlake. Now, there's one funny man! Read his Dortmunder series.

Willie Willow Tree: Do you write humour in description or mostly in dialogue?

Mary: I never thought about that, Willow. I guess mostly in action or even internal dialogue. I'm not too fast with a quip myself, so I guess my characters aren't, either. But inside . . . that's another story.

christine collier: I think the Penrod series were one of the funniest ever; do you agree?

Mary: Yes, they're pretty funny. I also thought THE BEST CHRISTMAS PAGEANT EVER was hysterical. We quote it in our house.

Willie Willow Tree: Is humor a trendy thing? Can you name some trends?

Mary: No, I don't think it lends itself too well to trends. At least, I haven't noticed much of that. Of course, there are the MY TEACHER IS AN ALIEN/ENEMY SPY/FROM OUTER SPACE, etc. things were popular, and now I suppose we'll have a run of funny fantasy because of Harry Potter.

GreyWolf: How do you know if you have the talent to write humor?

Mary: Try it--and maybe read it to some kids. Nancy McArthur, author of who writes THE PLANT THAT ATE DIRTY SOCKS books, always gives her books a test run in schools or sometimes borrows kids for a reading. Then she marks the spots where kids react or don't react.

Willie Willow Tree: So in a story how often do you put a funny in? What balance do you keep?

Mary: I don't consciously balance it.

Maudy: How do you avoid being TOO funny, to the point of overkill?

Mary: Well, I guess there's a natural rhythm, Maudy. You get a feel for it.

Christine: It seems some YA movies (and books too) are simply crude without really using any humor. What do you think?

Mary: I agree. YA's don't want real humor. That's not a particularly funny time in their lives. They just don't see it. My book, WHO SAYS I CAN'T, features a heroine who is 15. I kept wondering why it was so hard to inject comedy of any kind into it and then realized that teens are just not funny, for the most part.

Willie Willow Tree: Pippie Longstocking was funny when I was a child...but humor can be outdated? What is considered out of date?

Mary: Pippi is still out there, of course. More to the point, I think kids are used to faster action and want stories about their contemporary world.

MODERATOR: How many kinds of humor are there?

Mary: Lordy, I don't know. There's slapstick and parody and mistaken identity and puns and jokes--and poetry! Kristi will post a funny poem for you.

MODERATOR: Okay, here goes . . . poetry example by Douglas Florian:

SEND MY SPINACH

Send my spinach

Off to Spain

Parcel post it

On a train.

Mail it,

Sail it,

On a ship.

Just don't let it

Touch my lip. (END)

Mary: Kids will agree, right? (Even I do!)

MODERATOR: Did you want to talk about other kinds of humor too?

Mary: There are even sight gags. I used a couple in my book, ME TWO. One was when the clone Wilf was using a tape to learn French and the library mixed it up and put a Russian tape in, so the clone Wilf ended up speaking Russian. I could have used regular phonetic Russian, but thought using the Cyrillic alphabet would be funny.

jello: How do you keep up with children's humor? What kinds of things do you read?

Mary: Harry Potter, of course, and some of Vivian vande Velde's stuff, like SMART DOG. I've had a busy summer and didn't get as much reading done as I would have liked.

Maudy: Do you find publishers vary in the kinds of humor they are looking for?

Mary: I really can't answer that. It's difficult to pin down. As I said, sometimes you just have to hit the right editor's funny bone and he/she will go to bat for your book. You should also check out some recent titles and note who's publishing them.

bernie: What about joke and riddle books, such as Katy Hall's? Is there still a market for those kinds of books?

Mary: Always. Kids love jokes. Look in the back of BOYS' LIFE, for example.

Nessa: 'Scuse my ignorance, but can we find the books you are talking about at the library, or only at the bookstore?

Mary: Definitely the library. Librarians are a writer's best friend. Doing research in the library is also a lot cheaper!

Willie Willow Tree: Do you try to think of humorous titles to your funnier books ...to tag it as funny to the reader?

Mary: Good question, Willow. I try--but it doesn't always work. I had other titles to some of my books and the editors wanted them changed. I wasn't always convinced it was the right thing.

Nessa: What middle grade things have you written that you find especially funny...or what are your personal favorites?

Mary: My favorite is ME TWO, followed by my two books about O'Connell, and also FRANKIE'S RUN.

MODERATOR: Can you think of funny things off the top of your head, or do you keep a "funny file" where you jot down humorous things you see or hear?

Mary: It's pretty much spontaneous.

MODERATOR: Do you read how-to humor books? If so, could you give a couple of good examples?

Mary: The only one I was able to find was HOW TO WRITE AND SELL HUMOR. Maybe it's time for a new treatment?

MODERATOR: Note to viewers: I saw this online today: Humor Writing: The Art of Being Funny at http://www.booklocker.com/cato15.html. Mary, do you test your writing on people to see if what you wrote is really funny?

Mary: Upon occasion, I have. I was outside my son's class one day listening to the teacher read one of the O'Connell stories and the kids were falling off their chairs. Of course, the book got a very nice review, but somewhat bombed, I'm afraid.

KarenO: Why, do you think?

Mary: Personally, I thought it wasn't marketed properly and that the cover art was too babyish for the audience I was after.

MODERATOR: How important is cover art for your humor books?

Mary: Very! I mean, it couldn't have been my writing!!! I think it's pretty important to all books. That's the first look your reader gets and it has to attract him/her.

Nessa: Do you have a choice in who does the illustrations?

Mary: No, Nessa, I don't have a choice.

christine collier: What was your best seller?

Mary: ME TWO. It was nominated for a Young Reader's Award in the Pacific Northwest which takes in Washington, Oregon, Montana--and Alaska! It also is currently under option for a cable TV movie through the Disney Channel.

MODERATOR: Great!

JonJon: Do editors try to match up artist with stories, i.e., style to style?

Mary: I guess they do, JonJon, but again, it's the editor's perception of your style. I don't always agree with them, even if they're not my books.

Nessa: Can you view the book before it actually goes into print?

Mary: Yes, but there's not much chance to change anything. I did get to see the illustrations for ME TWO, however, and caught some glaring errors.

KarenO: Can you tell us about any?

Mary: One of the characters was supposed to be dressed in a sweater and the artist had him looking like Al Capone, complete with fedora!

JonJon: What rights do you have for that (the movie)?

Mary: Not much. You should see the contract. They can issue it on cable, DVD, video, and don't get any more money. However, if they do a TV series, I do.

Maddie: Can you contact illustrators on your own and submit a manuscsript/illustration package?

Mary: I wouldn't. Editors like to choose their own illustrators generally.

MODERATOR: I wonder... Do you have an agent, and is it helpful to have an agent for your humor writing?

Mary: I don't have an agent. I doubt if one would be any better for humor than for anything else. I believe it's still possible to sell a good manuscript on your own.

Maudy: Do you ever study another author's writing? If so, what techniques do you look for?

Mary: I don't consciously study other writers, but do, of course, notice a particular style. A lot of people try to imitate, consciously or not, Dr. Seuss, and it's just not possible.

jello: Do you write humorus poetry now?

Mary: Occasionally, but it's a poor market.

JoBob: Do you also write for younger grade school children?

Mary: Sometimes, I do, but I feel more comfortable with middle graders. I haven't had much luck with younger stuff. The shorter it is, the tougher it is!

Please go to Part 2 of Mary Ryan's interview now . . .

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