"A Potpourri of Pathways to Publication" with Hope Irvin Marston

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator of this chat with Hope Marston and web editor of the ICL site.

Pink shows the user names of the people who are asking questions of Hope.

Mel: A WARM SPRING WELCOME to the ICL Chat Roon, where we have a guest, Hope Marston, who is a pioneer in her own right, having tried her writing wings at many different kinds of writing for children--and very successfully. Yet Hope has never forgotten how tough it is to get started in writing for children. She is not an at-arms'-length expert, but an expert you can chat with, and find out answers from. I'm happy to welcome you all to this chat. And a SPECIAL welcome to you, Hope!

Hope: Hello everybody!

Mel: Hope, do you remember the very first piece you wrote? If so, when was it, and what?

Hope: Yes, I remember--I have a great memory for some things. J I was twelve or thirteen. I wrote a poem in tribute to my Sunday School teacher. I submitted it to Standard Publishing Company and they printed it! (With a few editorial changes!)

Mel: When you first started writing, did you see yourself as a full-time writer?

Hope: No, that came much later.

Mel: And did you consider yourself a CHILDREN's writer when you first started writing?

Hope: No. My original writing goal was to write a book.

Mel: What was your first sold-and-published piece for children, and how did it come about?

Hope: My first piece for children was a daily devotional book for kids in a series Bread for the Children, published by Child Evangelism Fellowship in 1972. In 1993 Sam Butcher's Precious Moments art work was added and the book continued to sell like wild. It was in print until a few years ago.

Mel: Congratulations!!! Have you written for adults, or just strictly for children in your writing career?

Hope: I have had two adult books published, but I prefer writing for young readers.

Mel: Hope, why is it so difficult for a beginning writer to get a manusript published?

Hope: That’s an easy question for me to answer. I think the biggest difficulty is that writers submit something too soon. Wriiting is a skill to be developed. You can’t write something tonight and expect it to be ready to mail in the morning, unless you are very unusual. Most of us aren't. We need to write and then let our effort sit for a while, like a week or so, and then go back and see how we can improve it. And then do the same thing a week or so later. We'll be able to see the faults and wonder why we didn't see them sooner.

Mel: Here's our first submitted question:

pegs1: How do you know your work is good enough to submit?

Hope: You don't know for sure, but there are things you can check to find out. First of all once you feel it is the best you can do, you need to run it by someone else who knows something about writing. For example, your critique group. They are a great sounding board. My group is skilled in different ways and the five of us see things from unique perspectives. We listen to each other and then go home and think about what was said and proposed, and decide if we agree or disagree. Then we do a final editing and send the piece to our chosen market.

Mel: How does one decide what kind of piece (fiction/nonfiction/ poetry, etc.) to write?

Hope: That decision is based on personal interests and experiences. We will do best at writing the kind of piece we enjoy most to read. But that doesn't mean we should only write in one genre. We should try many. We may be pleasantly surprised at what we can write, things we'd never previously tried.

amme: How did you keep from getting discouraged by rejections?

Hope: Someone told me many years ago that when I received a rejection, I could allow myself enough tears to wet the stamp. Then I must get on with submitting it to another well chosen market. Since we don't lick stamps anymore, I guess I can't even cry that much!

kelly: How do you go about finding a critique group in the city you are in, or how would you go about starting one?

Hope: Good question, Kelly. I found mine in several places. I attended a workshop for writers and picked up two of them there. That's a good place. Another came when I helped to start a writing group in our area. We have a new critique group that began in our area after our SCBWI writing workshop last spring. At that workshop we asked people who were interested in starting a group to let us know. Then someone who wanted to start a group contacted them and the group is now functioning. It's probably easier to start a group than to try to join an already formed one.

jeanne: How many people make up a good critique group?

Hope: You need to keep it small enough so that everyone can read, Jeanne. Our group was four for many years. We meet from ten until about one-thirty with time out for lunch. I would keep it under six if you are serious about reading each time.

kelly: When you first decided to write full time, how long did it take to have your works published? And what problems did you come across?

Hope: Oh, Kelly. I took several writing courses by correspondence. After I took the ICL course, it was a number of years before I finally got the book published that I was writing for ICL. But I was working full time (teacher/librarian/housewife/etc.) and my time was limited. My problem was not knowing what was wrong with my manuscript that is wasn't accepted. I learned with practice and practice and practice to improve. J

Mel: Are correspondence courses worth the investment of so much money, Hope?

Hope: The correspondence courses are much more expensive than when I first began writing, but in each instance I am confident I got my money's worth. But there are "free" courses available on the Web.

silverdove: Do you recommend using a professional editor before submitting a manuscript?

Hope: I have never done that, Silverdove. But I was an English teacher before I was a published author and that has its advantages. Typing isn't one of them.

Mel: What grades did you teach English to, Hope?

Hope: Seven to twelve, but more to junior high than senior high. Actually more in seventh grade. I love those kids. I taught seventh grade primarily.

Mel: A question pre-submitted, Hope: I have lots of ideas. How do I decide which one would be the best for me to work on now?

Hope: The idea that is most compelling is the one you should run with. I mean the one that sticks in your mind no matter what you are working on. Right now I am working on a biographical piece concerning an incident I read about at least twenty years ago. The story wouldn't go away. Finally I decided it was time to write it.

oscar: Did you find an agent in the early stages of your writing?

Hope: No, and not in the later ones either, Oscar. At first I didn't even consider an agent. I didn't know why I would want one. I wrote for many years and got along fine without one. Then I got caught in a squabble between my editor and another editor following a merger. At that time an agent would have come to my rescue. Still, I survived and things went smoothly until my editor's imprint was axed in a merger. Now I have no one to help me with problems at that house, problems like getting rights back for books that go out of print. I realize things have changed, and it may be more important to have an agent today. But you have to prove yourself before an agent will take you on.

casey: Hope, if I receive a contract but don't have an agent, should I hire a lawyer? Or is there some organization that will help with contract analysis?

Mel: Thanks, Hope! I was just going to ask for an address! Great minds think alike! J

kelly: If you are still on really good terms with old high school teachers (English teachers, etc.) would you recommend going to them with your works for critiquing and editing?

Mel: kelly is asking a GOOD question, Hope.

Hope: If you are good friends, it wouldn't hurt. But don't impose. Too many people impose on us writers thinking we should offer our advice and expertise for free. We don't want to impose in the same way. On the other hand, you do need to find someone who can spell correctly and who knows good grammar if you don't. Editors don't have time to teach you the fundamentals. It's your job to write well from a grammatical sense as well as insofar as telling a good story or writing a sensible essay.

Mel: Do editors generally make a lot of changes on your manuscript or when it's published is it close to what you originally submitted?

Hope: I had the same editor for about fifteen years. She never changed anything without first asking me. Even then, because of my English background, she didn't ask much. However, with one of my adult books, an editor changed something. She did not tell me she was doing it. I found it out when I read the published book. Unfortunately the changes she made wiped out my idea for a sequel. I was not a happy camper with that situation.

Mel: Another pre-submitted question: I am a new listener-in on the chats and interviews as of the past several months…. I was very excited to learn that Mrs. Marston was going to be on tonight. She is one of my very favorite children's authors. My question for Hope this evening is: I know what I want to write about, but I don't know how to begin getting something on paper. Can you give us some suggestions on writing that very first draft?

Hope: Hey, it's nice to be appreciated. Thank you. I am glad to answer that question. A few months ago I learned something from Steve Manning who has a web site in which he teaches you to write fast and furious. I did his exercise on line and I was amazed at what turned up. With due credit to Steve, here is what works for me. Try it. No matter what you are writing about, think of three key words related to it. They can be nouns, verbs, descriptors--it doesn't matter. They will be your springboard to getting started. You are going to do a FIVE-minute writing execise with these restrictions. You will begin your first paragraph with one of the three words. You can change form, such as "run" to "running" or "ran," etc. You must use all three words in your first paragraph. You write as fast as you can. You do not stop and think. You don't re-read, you don't scratch something out. You keep your hand moving for that five minutes. This is not an autibiography. You don't use the word "I." The idea is to get words on paper and to let them come from within. You don't stop to think about how they are connected. You just keep going. Learning to do this has helped me start, no matter what kind of piece I intend to write. The idea is that as you do this you are trying to tell a story. But you don't stop to think about beginning and middle and end. You just write. There, did I leave you breathless?

Hope: It really is a super launch pad.

Mel: Have you ever done "work for hire"? If so, would you recommend it?

Hope: Yes, I have done "work for hire." With good and with improvable results. In the first instance I worked for an historical society that asked me to write a quarterly publication for fourth graders along with a teacher's manual. I was paid per issue--no problems there. And from it I got my idea for my first biography. More recently another historical society hired me to write the history of their village. It was a one-year contract with a stated salary. No one knew how much I should charge. Unfortunately for me, I could not get the work done within the year, and it took me another nine months. My finished manuscript was 1,000 pages. I worked my tail off (excuse the fancy language) for nearly two years. The second year was not recompensed. What bothered me most was that I couldn't be working on anything else for two years. So you need to make sure you are protected if that project you are hired to write should take longer than you surmised it would.

spudsie: What do you think of researching various publications, then trying to write exactly what they're looking for?

Hope: Spudsie, that's what I did when I started writing. Now as I think about it, from twenty-five years or more down the road, I realize that in the beginning it doesn't really matter what you write about. The important thing is that you write, and write, and write, and write for a couple of years until you learn to write well. Then it's time to think about specific markets. You can use the magazine's interests to give you subjects with which to practice.

Mel: A further question submitted beforehand, Hope, from Taryn: On the back of many books you see not only what books are about, but also comments from others about the book. This book is great, a wonderful read, etc. Do they do this for children's books as well? Do people critique children's books before they are published? Where would I go to find them? Would I need to go to somewhere like the New YorkTimes? How do I find companies that do this for children or do they?

Hope: Taryn, I know what you are talking about. I haven't seen those comments that much on the backs of children's books. I see them sometimes inside on YA books. I don't know how they got there, who wrote them. I surmise that an astute editor somehow got the "right" people to read the manuscript before it was published so those comments could be included. They certainly are a good sales pitch. I hope that helps.

Mel: Have you ever paid to have a manuscript published?

Hope: I am in the process of doing that right now...much to my regret. I had a book that won two awards when it was published by Cobblehill/Dutton. When it went out-of-print, I felt it needed to be resurrected. I studied the markets and chose a Print-on-Demand company with good recommendations. Big mistake on my part. It's been over a year and I am still waiting for a galley that is correct. The company doesn't seem to known how to follow standard format. In this instance. I sent a copy of the original. I am still reminding them that the new chapters must start on the right hand side. Grrr. Thanks for letting me vent on that one!

casey: A friend mentioned PublishAmerica. Do you know anything about them? Are they a POD publisher?

Hope: Casey, one of the members of my critique group recently had a book published by PublishAmerica. I am very much impressed with this company. It is not a POD. One of the things that impressed me was the quality of the book. It's a paper back with an excellent cover. I was also impressed with the speed of publication. This book was in print in fewer than five months after the manuscript was submitted. Since I've waited a year and three months and my book still isn't out, I recognize this is a great thing. I checked the company on line and I see that they also print children's books. If you are looking for a publisher, you might want to check them out. My friend (who happens to be here tonight, I think) recommends them highly.

Mel: Is PublishAmerica what is called a subsidy publisher, Hope?

Hope: No, Mel. It's not a subsidy publisher. She gets royalties and she is delighted with how she is being treated. I have to admit I am a bit envious!

Mel: Publish American sounds like a GOOD deal! Is there a web address for them? Or would the "PublishAmerica" as search words get us there?

kelly: What would you do in a situation where editors change your manusript without notification?

Hope: Kelly, there was nothing I could do in that situation I mentioned earlier. Because the book was already published. I did write a letter expressing my dismay, but I couldn't change the situation. I was appalled at that, and it's the only time it has ever happened to me.

Mel: Here is a recommendation for what I believe is a POD publisher, Hope, from ccollier.

Hope: Good for you, cc. Wow. I am impressed. Since you went back to them, you must have been satisfied. I wish I had gone elsewhere. Hindsight is so sharp, isn't it? Does iUniverse do children's books?

Mel: I can answer that one, Hope, since I just zipped over to their site. Yes, they do children’s books.

silverdove: What do you do when you come across conflicting research? Some references say one thing, others say different things.

Hope: I have found that to be "silver." I weigh the evidence from all my research. If I still can't conclude which is correct, I point that out in my manuscript. I state what I feel is the case, but then point out there are those who would disagree.

nance: Does PublishAmerica accept series ideas for books?

Hope: I don't know. You can check the website to find out.

Mel: Again, I can answer that, having taken a quick look at PublishAmerica’s site. I see quite a number of series listed among their books!

Nance: Hope, do you recommend keeping a journal of interesting quotes as a springboard for idea creation?

Hope: I keep interesting quotes, etc., but not in a journal. I type them and keep them in a big, growing-bigger box. The value in typing them is that they are running through my fingers, my eyes and my mind. Even if I never read them again, they are still implanted inside my head. They show up when I do my morning pages.

Mel: silverdove just echoed that that is, indeed, a way to put them inside your head! Hope, there is a question I’ve been wanting to ask you ever since we practiced together. Can you tell us about your latest venture, into historical fiction?

Hope: I'd love to talk about it as I wait...and wait...and wait...for a publisher to send me that letter offering a contract! My idea came from that huge history book I wrote about Pulaski, NY, the salmon capital of the world. The village was settled in 1804, primarily from folks who migrated west from Vermont. They came in winter so they could get across the Hudson River. They had a sleigh and an ox or two, but the adults walked the distance as did the older children. The cow walked behind the sled. Having grown up on a farm, that fascinated me. So I made up my own story about an eleven-year-old and the family cow as they plod along from Vermont to central New York. This was a first for me. I didn't realize how much more research I would have to do, but it was great fun and being a librarian by profession, I enjoyed the additional research. Now if I could just find the right publisher, I'd be happy.

casey: What are the "morning pages" you mentioned a minute ago?

Hope: Casey, they are the best way to stir up your mind and get it moving the way it needs to be when you are a writer. It's the term that Julia Cameron uses in THE RIGHT TO WRITE. It's three pages of that fast paced, don't-dare-stop writing that I mentioned earlier. Julia says in her book that when we are writing our stories, etc., we try to make things up. Instead we should be calling things up that are already stored inside our brains because of all the experiences we have had in our lifetime. Since I read that book I have written my three pages every morning without fail, first thing in the morning even before I get dressed. Some mornings I write about what happened the day before. Other days I write about the particular scene I am working on. A few days ago I wrote everything I could think about manatees because I am working on a manatee book. It's a surefire way to get your brain in gear. I recommend it no matter what genre piques your interest.

lizr: I learned a lot from reading Julia Cameron's book, THE ARTIST'S WAY. How long have you been doing morning pages?

Hope: Since late in January, the day after I finished reading the book. I just borrowed THE ARTIST'S WAY from the library. I am looking forward to reading it soon.

lizr: In THE ARTIST'S WAY - Julia suggests going on play dates--or writing dates for FUN!

Hope: I'd enjoy that, wouldn't you?

Mel: Here's that earlier word we were promised from cyranogal, Hope.

cyranogal:FYI, iUniverse appears to publish children's books.

Hope: Thanks, cyr.

nance: How long should you spend researching till you write the story?

Hope: Nance, that's a loaded question. As a librarian who loves research, I could spend forever. But that is not expedient. You have to make sure you have gathered all the pertinent information that you need. It will never be all the info that is out there. When I think I have it all, I start writing. Then I make notes of what I still have to look up. But you need to remember you aspire to be a writer, not a research librarian.

spudsie: With the morning pages, are you talking three LONG-HAND pages or TYPEWRITTEN?

Hope: Spudsie, it is importnat that you write in longhand. And also that you write legibly. I had a problem reading some of my pages in which I had written about one of my current writing projects. So I am learning to slow down. But some days I write more than three pages.

Mel: I don't know what this question means, Hope, but maybe silverdove will tell us after you've answered. J

Hope: No, I'm not left-handed. I'm smiling. Why did you suspect I was?

silverdove: I'm doing research on lefties--that's why I’m asking. Doing research for a story. It’s a connecting thing you did, and lefties need to connect .

cyranogal: Why do you suggest writing morning pages in longhand?

sherman'smom: Yes, why longhand?

lizr: Do you have any other writing "rituals" besides the Morning Pages?

Hope: Lizr, it's not a ritual, but I have learned that it's important to be working on more than one project at a time. That way you aren't tempted to work a piece to death. Right now I am working on three things. I try to spend an hour a day on each one. Sometimes I spend more on one, and another gets slighted until the morrow. It seems to work well. And it's easy to see flaws when I have been away from a piece for a few days.

soradina: Do you have any suggestions about potential markets for science writers?

Hope: Sorry, I don't, sora. I’m sorry that I can’t help.

Mel: Hope, what's your next book that's coming out?

Hope: I thought you'd never ask. J

Mel: Being a "critter person," you KNEW I would ask! J

Hope: Of course! We've had the same publisher, haven't we?

Mel: YES--NorthWord Press!

Hope: It's MY LITTLE BOOK OF WHITETAILS, but what is so exciting is this: It was supposed to be the sixth book in a series, but the company was sold and the new buyer didn't want to increase the series. Then the new owners let the series go out of print. It took me three years, but not only did the Lord supply a publisher for the new book, but the same company is going to bring out the whole series. I am so blessed. The other two that will be coming out next month along with whitetails are the books on timber wolves and river otters. They have a new look. I can't wait to hold them in my hot little hands!

Mel: Most writers seem to have their own horror stories; but what about the surprising GOOD THINGS that happen. Can you share any of them?

Hope: I’ve just shared one. Here's another. That company that rewrote my story had purchased it outright. This past year it decided to combine four stories about New York state into one book. Now the company is giving royalties and I was sent an advance royalty check. It wasn't huge, but it was a surprise. The book is out and it looks great. Now, do I have to forgive them for butchering my idea?

vernaculady: Congratulations!!!

Hope: Thanks, Verna.

cyranogal: You may have alread answered this (I apologize if you have), but do you suggest a writer's course for aspiring writers?

Hope: I have taken many courses and they've all helped me. Barnes and Noble offers a free one from time to time. Right now I am taking one on how to think like an editor. You can learn from books, from critique groups, from hearing writers speak, from writing workshops. I learn so much from the ICL archives. Wow! I highly recommend you try every means. One of the biggest helps to me recently was attending Barbara Seuling's writing workshop in Vermont last summer. We relate to different teachers in different ways. I had taken two courses she had taught on line and she and I clicked. Her summer workshop was delightful and helpful. In addition to getting help with my historical novel, I wrote a picture book while I was at the workshop. It was superb!

Mel: Barbara Seuling is a MARVELOUS person and writer!

lizr: I am going to an SCBWI conference this Saturday--do you have any networking tips I could use?

Hope: Just keep your ears open. Be friendly. Talk to people around you, and listen carefully to what the presenters say, especially editors or publishers. Then go home and do what they've told you to do. Have fun!

Mel: Hope, I've been wishing each of our two hours tonight were four hours long, so that we could ask and receive twice as much from you, such a generous giver. You are an expert teacher as well as writer, so able to explain to us, as well as do the writing. Thank you so much for being our guest tonight, and I hope you can come back and chat with us again someday. OK?

Hope: It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for asking me. I'd love to come back.

Mel: Please return to our chat room two weeks from tonight, Thursday April 3, to talk with Betty Erickson about "How to Craft a Real Story with 200 Words or Less." Betty is a veteran reading specialist and children's advocate. Her first book, OH, NO, SHERMAN!, was published in 1996. Since then, Betty has had ten fiction and nonfiction titles published by Seedling Publications. In the Guest Interview after Betty's, we'll be talking with her editors at Seedling Publications. See you April 3! Our WARM THANKS to you again, Hope, for the fun AND enlightenment it has been for us having you as a guest in our chat room!

Hope: I have had a great time. Goodbye, all.

Mel: Bye All!