Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Thursday, March 30, 2000

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, web editor for this site and author of 23 juvenile books and more than l00 articles for adults and children.

Marianne is Marianne Mitchell, author of over 50 stories and articles for children's magazines. Although she took the traditional route to publishing to get started, she has had success with two self-published books (one which was later sold to Teacher Ideas Press.)

Names color coded in blue are viewers who asked questions.

Interviews begin promptly in the Scheduled Events Room at 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Eastern.

MODERATOR: Hello, everyone! Welcome back to the Scheduled Events Room where tonight we'll be talking to Marianne Mitchell about "The Self-Publishing Option." Marianne took the traditional publishing route first, publishing over 50 stories and articles for children's magazines. One of her books, Say It in Spanish!, was self-published but later sold to Teacher Ideas Press. Last summer she self-published a middle grade novel, Over the Waves. Tonight we'll be talking about pros and the cons of self-publishing. Welcome, Marianne!

Marianne: Hello, everyone!

MODERATOR: First, tell us how you got started writing, Marianne.

Marianne: As an elementary teacher, I always wrote little things for my classes, but it was when I was teaching college Spanish I started writing skits. They were mostly kiddie fairy tales set to our Spanish lesson. The students liked them and I discovered I liked writing more than teaching. But I figured there must be some special tricks to learn so I signed up for an ICL class. And the rest is history!

MODERATOR: Did you first follow the traditional paths to publishing?

Marianne: I sold my first story to Guide Magazine while taking the ICL class. Then I sold to other magazines: Highlights, Jack and Jill, Pockets. Some I sold for payment, others for no pay, just to get credits. At the same time I was marketing my book Maya Moon to educational publishers. I sold that one on my own.

MODERATOR: What made you explore self-publishing?

Marianne: My first effort was just to serve my workshop needs so I published a handbook for teachers called Classroom Spanish for the Elementary Teacher. I used it in the teacher workshops I gave in local schools and it sold well. So then I sent it to some educational publishers and the second one took it. They published it as Say It in Spanish! With Over the Waves I first tried the traditional route and even got an offer. But it was a bad offer, so I turned them down. I knew I had a good book because I had gotten good feedback from editors. I also knew it targeted a cultural/niche market I could reach. And I needed a new book for the many school book fairs I go to and I needed it faster than the traditional publishers could provide.

LorieKay: What kinds of workshops were you leading when you wrote that first book?

Marianne: I was teaching teachers some Spanish for use in the classroom. Many knew no Spanish but were under a state mandate to use it. Tough!

DebO: Do you write mainly nonfiction?

Marianne: No, mostly fiction. But nonficiton would sell better!

LorieKay: When you self-published the workshop handbook, was it copied at a Kinko's type business, and bound with the plastic combs, or stapled, or what? I'm just trying to envision this as a self-published workshop guide.

Marianne: Yes, I went to Kinko's and used a plastic comb. I didn't bother with ISBN or fancy marketing.

MODERATOR: Please tell our viewers the difference between SELF-PUBLISHING and ONLINE PUBLISHING.

Marianne: I assume you mean e-books? There are lots of opportunities for writers now. It's another way to get around the traditional route. I put one of my brother's books online six months ago. So far we have sold one copy for $1.40. Whoopee! I still like holding a "real" book. You have more control, you can do editing, the art, get it into stores, go to schools.

Ducky: What kind of money is required to self publish?

Marianne: Not as much as you might think. And a lot depends on the project and how you do it. Will you do hardcover or paper? Spiral bound or perfect bound? 40 pages or 400 pages, 200 copies or 20,000 copies? A picture book will cost a lot more because of the art. One author I know spent $12,500 for 2500 copies of a picture book. My book, Over the Waves is a 160 page perfect bound paperback. My cost, including everything, for 1026 books was about $3,300. That includes printing ($2400), cover art ($475), ISBN ($195) copyediting ($100) and shipping ($110). It's VERY IMPORTANT to shop around when choosing a printer. Ask for bids, ask other self-publishers who they used. Make a shopping list of what you want your book to have. By making comparisons, you can save a lot of money.

MODERATOR: Were there "hidden" costs or costs you didn't figure on?

Marianne: Not for me. My printer (Morris) was very upfront. But not all are, so you have to ask.

Ducky: Do printers have samples of their work?

Marianne: My printer did and they sent it along with their nifty guide book materials.

Bernadette: What should a book have when making that "shopping list"?

Marianne: I studied trade published books to see what they looked like (up close!) and then I listed what I wanted mine to look like. I studied the copyright page, the chapter headings, the cover art, the typeface (font), and paper quality. I wanted my book to look as good as a trade-published book.

Ducky: Can you self-publish any kind of book? Even a picture book?

Marianne: Yes, of course, that's the beauty of it. You have total control. I have friends who have self-published CDs, calendars, activity books, novels, workbooks, nonfiction, recipe books, etc. But you must know that not all printers can do all kinds of jobs so you must shop around. If you want to do a book, be sure the printer specializes in books. Not all can do color picture books, either. Morris doesn't, for example.

MODERATOR: What are the benefits of self-publishing?

Marianne: Like I said before, CONTROL. You are the author, editor, publisher, art director, publicity, marketing, and fullfillment departments. If you want a certain look on the cover, you get it! If you want a joke on p. 56, you can have it! Every decision, good or bad, is yours. If your book isn't selling well, then bawl yourself out and get to work! Another plus is time. You get your book faster. One publisher took two years to reject my book. By then I had published it. Also, your book won't go out of print until you say so! By self-publishing you can have your book in 6 weeks to 2 months. I decided last April do do Over the Waves. First I wrote myself a smashing acceptance letter! Then I got information, did my homework, contacted a printer. In May I looked for and found a local artist to do my cover. In June I polished up my ms. some more. In July I sent everything to the printer, "camera ready." By the end of August, I had my books at my doorstep. I am now only 15 sales away from getting all my investment back and then I can pay myself a 100% royalty!

MODERATOR: Many pluses! What are the risks of becoming your own publisher?

Marianne: The biggie is investing too much money in a poor product you can't sell. If you don't shop around, you may pay too much for printing. DO NOT go with a subsidy or vanity publisher because they want too much money! If you haven't written a strong work, it won't sell. If you skimp on quality, it won't sell. If you don't get out and promote it, it won't sell.

teresa3: Who edits your work before it's published?

Marianne: I paid for two professional edits on Over the Waves. Also, I did my own editing and had my husband check for errors. He's terrific at that!

MODERATOR: How important is the book cover?

Marianne: VERY IMPORTANT!!!! Before readers see your words, the see the cover. It must attract, hook the customer, and have needed information. Study book covers that attract you. I liked Pam Conrad's Prairie Songs and used it as my model. I wanted kids on the cover because kids attract kids. I wanted a simple, clear presentation. I put a snippet of the text on the back cover, my hero's challenge. Then I had an author friend write a "blurb" praising the story and the writing. I also needed to allow for bar code, ISBN, and publisher name on the back. And on the spine I wanted the title and author name. Color choice is also important. I was warned away from yellow, for example.

SaraJ: Did you invent a publisher name?

Marianne: Glad you asked! Yes I did. I pondered this a long time. I didn't want something with my name in it. But I wanted something connected to me so I chose our family brand. Rafter Five is like a rooftop (the two rafters are Mom and Dad) and the five are five lines under the rooftop representing the five kids. I am kid number five so I made the family change the brand from the Rafter Four to the Rafter Five!

Ducky: How do you market these books?

Marianne: Mostly I sell them at school book fairs, but I am also on Amazon.com and the Barnes and Noble site. And I have sent them to Scandinavian gift shops and museums across the country. I also have a distributor for the school and library market.

SaraJ: Does Amazon.com get a big cut?

Marianne: Yes, they get 55% plus I pay shipping. I only make a little on those sales.

Ducky: Do you pay to be on Amazon and Barnes and Noble sites?

Marianne: No, it was real easy to get on Amazon...they're real nice. BN was harder, but no charge.

Diamond Dreamer: What are some ways that you can promote book sales?

Marianne: Give talks whenever asked and center your talk around your book is one way. I do a lot of talks about preserving family stories since my book is based on a family story. Also, I send out flyers to schools and libraries, stores, friends, relatives. I am always on the lookout for ways to market, including magazines and newspapers.

MODERATOR: Do you advertise in the usual trade magazines like School Library Journal?

Marianne: Not so far. Advertising costs a lot. Plus some journals don't do much with self-published books. What HAS helped is having an article written in a paper or magazine about my book--those have spiked sales.

MODERATOR: Do the books get reviewed?

Marianne: This is one area I made mistakes in.  Most review journals won't touch a self-publishing book. The few I did send to, I bragged that it was self-published. Big Mistake. NEVER say you are self-published. Say instead you are a "small publisher" or an "independent publisher." Refer to yourself in the plural and promote your cat to the Marketing Director. For example: "We at Rafter Five Press are proud to announce the publication of our latest book, Over the Waves. For ordering information, please contact our Marketing Director, Charley Katz."

DebO: Do you send news releases to newspapers? How do you get the papers interested in writing an article on your book?

Marianne: Yes, I do. In fact, an editor called yesterday and interviewed me and the article will come out two days before my next book fair!

Diamond Dreamer: Do you include an order form in the back of your books?

Marianne: Yes, I do but so far none have come back. I'm not sure I'd waste the page again!

Ducky: If I have figured right, you paid a little over $3.00 per book. What do you sell them for?

Marianne: My book sells for $9.95. But I can sell it for less if I want to. I'm the boss!

Diamond Dreamer: How do you decide how to price your books? Don't most bookstores want a 50% discount?

Marianne: The how-to books say you should charge 4 times the cost of printing, but that was more than I wanted for my book. I wanted one kids would be able to buy. I only give bookstores a 40% discount and I pay the shipping. I still make out okay.

Diamond Dreamer: It's fortuitous that you're speaking about this topic today. I received a small NY State grant to publish my children's book Catskill Creatures, geared to the 8-14 audience. It will be a 40-page illustrated perfectbound paperback and printed by a local printer (so I can be at the press run). Like yours, sans ISBN and all the bells & whistles. My local bookstore will carry it, and I'll sell through mail order. How do you sell your books? And how do I decide how much to price the book at?

Marianne: Congratulations and Best Wishes! I sell my books mainly at book fairs as schools. You must decide what you would pay for your book and if it's competitive.

DebO: Do you need to put together a dummy for the printer along with colour overlays for artwork or coloured text?

Marianne: I didn't. I sent in camera ready pages which I formatted on the computer. The cover art was scanned to a disc by a professional digital imaging company.

SaraJ: What is "camera ready" art and printing? And did you require a special program to format camera-ready pages?

Marianne: Imagine that you are going to photocopy your pages. What you see is what you get. I had to allow for final book page size, place the page number, allow designated margin space. All this was spelled out in the handbook my printer sent me. Our computer had Pagemaker. I think that's what we used.

MODERATOR: Sounds complicated! Did it save you money doing all that work yourself?

Marianne: Absolutely! About $800 worth of saving from having the printer typeset the pages.

Diamond Dreamer: How do the book fairs work? Do you approach the schools first?

Marianne: Schools found out about me when my first book Maya Moon came out and they called me. But I also contact the librarians early in the school year to remind them I'm here and last fall I included information about my NEW BOOK!

Ducky: Do you travel all over the country to sell your work?

Marianne: No, I'm not that ambitious! I'd go to neighboring states, though, if they asked and I'm hoping to get asked to Omaha schools next fall because my book has Omaha roots.

Diamond Dreamer: Do you also do readings and library and bookstore appearances?

Marianne: Sometimes. I like schools more!

SaraJ: How much of your writing time now is spent doing marketing of your self-published book?

Marianne: Some days it takes most of the morning. I could spend even more time but I'd rather be writing. And since I'm the boss, I can do as much or as little as I want. Promoting a self-published book can be busy or not, depending on what you want. You are not under the same pressure as the Big Guys to sell lots of books before it goes out of print. You're the boss! You can take your time if you want!

SaraJ: Since the book was finished in August, how many hours per week would you say you've spent marketing in order to break even now?

Marianne: I have no idea. It would be a waste of time to keep track. Maybe a third?

AnneKelly: For your new book, did you first send it to publishers, or did you decide to self-publish it first?

Marianne: If you mean Over the Waves, yes, I did send it around to those foolish publishers who turned it down. One did make an offer, but it was a terrible deal, so I said "no thanks!"

chaser: How do you know if it will sell or not, test it on your in-laws first?

Marianne: Relatives are the worst ones to test on, so no. I sent it to people I could trust to give me a fair evaluation. I paid for two critiques. I sent it to Swedes to see if I got the Swedish culture, history and settings right. I sent it to a history professor to see if I got the history right. Got good comments all around.

MODERATOR: How do you get your book into bookstores?

Marianne: The only bookstores I've targeted are ones that cater to Scandinavian interests, such as gift shops and museum stores. But it is also on Amazon.com and the Barnes and Noble site so that anyone going into a BN store in the U.S. can ask for the book and get it. I think my book, since it fills a niche market, needs a hand-sell. It would be lost sitting on the shelf in a big store.

SaraJ: Will chain bookstores (like in the mall) stock self-published books, and does it matter?

Marianne: Yes, they will and no, it doesn't matter to them. However, nonfiction self-published books have much more success in this regard. They can sell themselves.

DebO: How did you get on Barnes and Noble, and Amazon.com? Do you pay them a fee for books sold?

Marianne: No fee paid to either. I went through both their Internet sites.

chaser: How do you find the distributor for school and library markets, through the school board, or county community?

Marianne: I found the name of mine in the back of a very good book on self-publishing--Dan Poynter's The Self-Publishing Manual. Also, there is another listed in the Children's Writers Guide 2000, The Bookmen.

Diamond Dreamer: How many copies did you initially have printed?

Marianne: I ordered 1000 but they sent 1026.

MODERATOR: Do you need an ISBN and Library of Congress catalogue number? If so, how do you get one?

Marianne: Yes, if you want to sell in stores or on the net. Library of Congress number if you want to be in libraries. For ISBN got to: http://www.bowker.com. For Library of Congress, go to: http://lcweb2.loc.gov.pcn. For copyright go to: http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/ It can all be done on the net, practically!

MODERATOR: Thanks for the specific addresses! What about bar codes? How do you get those?

Marianne: I let my printer handle that for me. But you can also send for information from the Uniform Code Council, 8163 Old Yankee Rd., Dayton, OH 45458.

Diamond Dreamer: Are your books listed in catalogues such as Ingrams?

Marianne: I haven't sent information to them, so I doubt it.

AnneKelly: Did you use profits from past writing to self-publish your novel?

Marianne: Ha! Ha! Those pennies were long gone! No, my dear hubby said "Do it!"

MODERATOR: Are you your own accounting department? Is it hard? Do you hire someone?

Marianne: Yes, No, and No.

MODERATOR: How do you avoid ending up with a basement full of unsold books?

Marianne: First of all, don't put those books in the basement! Too damp! Second, get out there and promote, hustle, speak, push, always have your book with you. Don't give them away. Friends and relatives have to buy them! Indulge in Blatant Shameless Self-Promotion!

SaraJ: Did you have flyers and bookmarks, etc. printed up too? If so, is it expensive?

Marianne: You can have all those made by your printer. I am making my own bookmark. It's a map of Sweden with the locales mentioned in the book on them. I run them off on card stock at Kinko's. But I also ordered from the printer 100 extra book covers to send out as promotional material. They only ran about .30 a copy. Next I'm going to order post cards and make up a fancier flyer than the one I now use.

DebO: Just WHERE do you put 1000 books?

Marianne: Under the bed, in the closet, up on shelves. We live in the desert with pack rats, so the garage was not an option.

SaraJ: Do you have a web site where you sell this book and we could see the cover?

Marianne: No web site, but you can see the cover and read an author interview on Amazon.com.

chaser: If you have a ms. you really believe in, do you go ahead and self-publish, or do you send it around a little to a few publishers to test their reaction first?

Marianne: I'd test the waters first. For one thing, you might sell it! And for another you might get some good editorial comments so you can improve your ms. even more.

Weezy: What if you are basically a shy person and can't 'sell yourself,' so to speak?

Marianne: I asked a similar question to an author who wrote great adventure books. I said, "I'm a housewife. I don't rope mustangs or chase trains. I don't have adventures."

He said, "Go out and get some, little lady!" So I guess I would suggest you start small and try a visit to your local school. It's fun and the kids love authors!

MODERATOR: What about print-on-demand books, where you only print them as they're ordered? Would this be a cheaper self-publishing option?

Marianne: You can find out by visiting a web site of a company that does just that. I looked at them first, but decided that the final product would be too costly, around $15. Go to www.xlibris.com.

MODERATOR: Are your books available as e-books too, where they're delivered through e-mail to be printed out by the buyer?

Marianne: Only my Say It in Spanish! is an e-book as well as regualr book. It's supposed to be at www.NetLibrary.com.

MODERATOR: Who decided it would be an e-book?

Marianne: The publisher, Libraries Unlimited. I wasn't keen on it.

MODERATOR: Can you say why?

Marianne: E-books sell for much less so my royalty would be much less, and they wouldn't renegotiate the terms for this new medium.

JenniferJ: What was the minimun press run the printers would do for you?

Marianne: I used Morris Publishing and they have a minimum run of 200 books. Also, they have a minimum of how many pages, too, but I don't remember the number.

Blue Phantom: What do you do at the schools to draw the attention of the children? It seems everyone that comes to the elementary school where I work has, if you'll excuse the phrase, a performance of some type to keep the children interested.

Marianne: I'm not a performer. I'm a teacher at heart and I like kids so I talk to them about the process, about writing, about how the story came to be and I try to relate it to their lives. For example, I encourage them to think of writing stories from their families and I give them examples of questions to ask, or ask them to write about their own lives as a start.

chaser: Will most printers be helpful, or do they expect you to have everything ready to go to press when you walk in their door the very first time?

Marianne: Mine was VERY helpful and a friend used a printer in Utah and had the same good experience. I had lots of questions and they were always happy to answer. But when it came time to send stuff in, it had to be all in order and ready to go. Otherwise your project would be delayed. By the way, you can visit my printer's web site at www.morrispublishing.com and my friend's printer in Utah was Publisher's Press, Salt Lake City, phone 1-800-456-6600.

Ducky: How much time was involved after you made the choice of printer until the project was done?

Marianne: I decided in April last year, sent everything in in July and by the end of August I had books!

SaraJ: When you sell your books to schools, do you tell them it's self-published? Do you get less respect then?

Marianne: Nobody cares. The teachers think it's cool, in fact. For one thing, I can give a discount if I want and I always have PLENTY of books on hand!

Allie: Was there an illustrator? At what point were they in the picture?

Marianne: I hired a local artist to do my cover. I asked among my artist friends who was good at portraits. They gave me a name, I went to see her and her work, described my idea for the cover, and that night she faxed me a sketch. It was just what I had in mind! I contacted her in May and she had the art done in a week. Makes me wonder why my "someday to be published" picture book at Holt is taking so long!

Ducky: Did the illustrator work with the printer or go through you?

Marianne: She went through me. I'm the Art Director! I had her painting scanned to a disc, which I sent to the printer and they worked from that.

Blue Phantom: Are you your own copy editor, or do you have someone else to help in that department?

Marianne: I hired a lady who has worked as an editor to be my copy editor. I paid her a $100.

SaraJ: Was it expensive to get those two "professional edits?"

Marianne: I didn't think so. One was with Laura Backes of Children's Book Insider and she did a great job. I forget what it cost, maybe $150?

MODERATOR: This is really great specific information!

buffie: When you go to the schools with your books, do you send information, flyers, or something in advance so they will know what you have available and how much they will be?

Marianne: Sometimes I do, like if there is no following book fair involved. Mostly it's teachers who buy then.

Diamond Dreamer: You mentioned that one of your books has a comb spine. Would you recommend purchasing a punch and bind system to do it yourself? (They sell for about $200.)

Marianne: I wish I had done just that after I'd gone back for my upteenth printing at Kinko's!

KareFairy: When you sell to stores, what quantity do you push for?

Marianne: I don't push for a quantity. I let them tell me how many copies they want.

SaraJ: Do you plan to self-publish again? If so, what would you do differently next time?

Marianne: I'm not exactly planning on it, but I did have to buy 10 ISBN numbers so I could. I will try my next mid-grade novel the traditional route first. But if I see it takes too much time and I need another new book for the book fairs, then, yes, I'd do it again. There isn't much I would change except font for my text. I have since learned about Bookman Old Style #12 and it's a very "easy on the eyes" font. Whatever you do, get an easy to read font and don't go smaller than size 12 . One self-published author here in town used a handwriting font and it's almost impossible to read! Another used a size 10 font and it's too small.

AnneKelly: It must take a very long time to make back the money you put in, since you have to pay other people besides the book printer. When you were talking about the break-even costs earlier, were you talking about just the printer costs or all your costs?

Marianne: All my costs, including the disc I bought to scan the art. I have almost earned it all back!

Allie: Is there such a thing as a professional editing service? (And is it the same as a book doctor?)

Marianne: I'm not sure of the difference. I would shy away from anyone calling themselves a book doctor because I think they would fiddle with my text too much.

ddt: Do you sell better to the teachers or to the book fairs?

Marianne: The book fairs, by far. The last fair I sold 27 copies of my book!

buffie: What kind of stores do you try to market your book with, and how do you approach them? Letter, flyers, telephone calls, or in person?

Marianne: My book has a Scandinavian culture hook/setting so I have targeted gift shops and museums that cater to that market. Also magazines and journals to that group, but also with letters and flyers. Before we run out of time I want to say a few words about the benefits beyond the financial. Self-publishing is a great hands-on experience for authors. When you later publish with the Big Guys, you will already know how to market, how to promote, how to network, how to contact bookstores, schools, libraries and how to do good presentations. You've been there already! And your publisher will love that you know all this!

MODERATOR: What a great note to end on tonight! This is so true! And I'm sorry, but we're out of time. This has been a fascinating discussion, Marianne. Thank you for coming and sharing.

Marianne: Thanks for having me!

MODERATOR: Do come back next week, April 6, 2000 for another "Open Forum" with me, Kristi Holl. I've published over 100 magazine articles and stories, as well as 22 books for the juvenile market. I'd welcome your questions on time management, getting started, writer's block, marketing, or anything else you'd like to discuss. Bring your QUESTIONS and OPINIONS to this moderated open forum next Thursday night. In the meantime, have a great week. And good night!

Return to Transcripts

93 Long Ridge Road, West Redding, CT 06896 Phone: (203) 792-8600 (800) 243-9645 Fax: (203) 792-8406 E-Mail: WebEditor@institutechildrenslit.com

Home | Writing Course | Short Story  | Full Story | Aptitude Test 
 Send Me Info | Enroll | Our Instructors | Our Credentials | Sample Lesson
College Credits | Tax Deductibility | From Overseas | Writer's Bookstore 
Newsletter | Writing Contests | Write for Adults | Free Writer's News
 Rx for Writers | Chat Room | Open Forum | Writing Tips  | Scheduled Events | Transcripts
Writer's Retreat | Writer's Support  | Student  Center |  Privacy Policy | Web Editor | Comments

Copyright © The Institute, Inc., 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
No part of the electronic transmission to which this notice is appended may be reproduced or redistributed in any form or manner without the express written permission of The Institute, Inc.