Instititute of Children's Literature

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Transcripts

"The Pros and Cons of Self-Publishing" with Marianne Mitchell

Thursday, October 11, 2001

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, web editor for this site and author of 24 juvenile books and more than l50 articles for adults and children.

Marianne is Marianne Mitchell, author of over 50 stories and articles for children's magazines. Although she took the traditional route to publishing to get started, she has had success with two self-published books (one which was later sold to Teacher Ideas Press.) She also has two books due out soon with traditional publishers.

Names color coded in blue are viewers who asked questions.

Interviews begin promptly in the Scheduled Events Room at 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Eastern.

Moderator: Good evening! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for the evening, and the web editor for this site. Tonight we're here talking with Marianne Mitchell on the "pros and cons of self-publishing." Marianne has published with large New York publishers as well as self-published a children's novel, Over the Waves, which is in its second printing. (Next year she has books due out from Henry Holt and Boyds Mills Press.) If you're tired of trying to sell your work, you may be wondering about self-publishing. Tonight's chat should help you make that decision. Welcome, Marianne!

Marianne: Hi everybody! Nice to see you all here!

Moderator: First, tell us how you got started writing, Marianne. Did you first follow the traditional paths to publishing?

Marianne: I used to be a teacher and did a lot of writing for my classes. But then I wanted to try to sell something, so I signed up for a writing/marketing class with ICL and sold my first story in nine months. Then I wanted to do a bilingual picture book so I sent that to an educational publisher. It came out in 1995, so yes, I did go the traditional route first.

Moderator: What made you explore self-publishing your first book?

Marianne: I had a novel I'd been trying to sell and was tired of collecting rejections. I knew it was good enough and I did have two rather crummy offers on it. One offer came from a subsidy publisher who wanted ME to put up 12 grand. Gulp! Then I looked into what self-publishing would cost and it was a LOT less.

SaraJ: How many rejection slips did you get before you decided to self-publish? And did you know you had submitted to a subsidy publisher?

Marianne: Ha! I guess I collected about 12 rejections and the subsidy offer came from a publisher who did both. I hoped they would go for the whole deal, contract, advance, etc. But they called and only offered the subsidy option.

Moderator: What are the benefits of self-publishing?

Marianne: The main benefits are time and control. I decided to do it myself in March of 1999. In May of '99 I sent off my material to the printer and by August I had 1000 books at my door. I also liked being in charge of all the steps, although that meant a lot of responsibility and learning new stuff.

Moderator: What are the risks of becoming your own publisher?

Marianne: The biggest risk is spending lots of money on a book you can't sell, either because you don't have the energy to promote or don't care. Even if you go with a company that will ask you to put up a small amount of the cost, you still have to promote and work to get the word out.

MRSfields: Did you have a strong market plan before the books showed up?

Marianne: I knew I could sell it and where. My main market was to be school book fairs around town. I was not so starry-eyed as to think I could afford to do a national marketing campaign like the Big Guys can. I targeted schools and the Scandinavian population out there because my book, Over the Waves, takes place in Sweden.

SaraJ: Do you have a day job or small kids to work around (getting that publicity done)?

Marianne: Nope. I work from home at several projects. No kids, but two pesky dogs!

Moderator: Were you your own editor also? How did you know your book was good enough to publish?

Marianne: Yes, I was my own editor but I also had others read it carefully. I send a copy to children's writers in Sweden to check it for Swedish details. I sent a copy to a Swedish history professor in Illinois to check for historical facts. Then I hired a nit-picky editor to look for other goofs.

Moderator: What does self-publishing cost?

Marianne: A lot depends on the project you have in mind: how many pages? novel or picture book? hard cover or soft? e-book or print on demand? or regular paperback? and how many copies?

SaraJ: Can you tell us the various costs for these kinds of books?

Marianne: I did a 150 page paperback novel, 1000 copes, for about $3000. There are several places where you can find out other costs for other projects. For example, in the November issue of "Publishing Success" there's an article on self-publishing. They list several companies, including mine, as resources. My company was Morris Publishing (www.morrispublishing.com). Others to look into are: www.booksindemand.com and www.1stbooks.com and www.iUniverse.com and www.publishingonline.com and my friend here in Tucson recommends Publishers Press in Salt Lake City at www.pubpress.com.

MRSfields: How much did you spend on promotion relative to your total expense--rough percentage?

Marianne: Hard to say. I spent about $300 on advertising and that was a waste. I also spent on flyers, postcards, and free samples. I guess I never added it all up.

Moderator: Were there "hidden" costs or costs you didn't figure on?

Marianne: No hidden costs with my company, Morris, because they spelled everything out up front. They send out a FREE publishing guide that takes you through all the steps and they were easy to talk to on the phone when I had questions.

MBVoelker: Did you use any special page layout or desktop publishing software?

Marianne: Yes, I let my husband format the book for me since I'm kind of a techno dummy. He used some Word Publisher or Page maker program. It was quite easy (when he did it).

Dolly: I have received a couple of letters from 1st. Books; are they a good company to deal with?

Marianne: I know an author here in town who published three books with them. Unfortunately they didn't do any editing for her and she didn't seek out an editor so the result looks not so hot. They also are more expensive to order from. I like companies that don't pay the author back on a royalty basis. With my company, I paid for all my costs and so now I get all the money when I sell.

Yella: You have done both self publishing and you have worked with publishers - this seems like a good approach to me. Can you, however, step on toes this way and run into problems with rights or is it easy to keep the two avenues open and separate?

Marianne: I don't see that I can have trouble with rights because the two don't cross. I did self-publish one teacher guide/resource book that an educational publisher picked up later on, but then they took the usual rights.

Moderator: Besides the costs of publishing, what else needs to be budgeted for?

Marianne: I had to buy ISBN numbers, pay for copyright, pay the copyeditor, buy shipping supplies, get a checking account set up for the business, get a PO Box, pay sales tax. Some companies will pay for some of these things for you as part of their package, like ISBN and copyright. If they offer the option of hiring one of their editors, take it! You also might have to budget for a place to store your boxes of books. Mine are under the bed, in the closet, etc.

SaraJ: Counting all the extra expenses like publicity and ISBN numbers, have you made your money back on your self-published books?

Marianne: Oh yes, I made my first investment back in nine months, then I had some $$ for conferences and such. Then I decided to go for a second printing of the book and I am now close to earning that investment back and then I will pay myself a 100% royalty!

ziegler: What does that usually cost (ISBN numbers and copyright)?

Marianne: If you have to buy a set of numbers, like I did, it cost $195 for ten numbers. Copyright, if done directly with the copyright office, is now $30.

Yella: Was your first book self published?

Marianne: No, the first book I did was Maya Moon and it came out in 1995 from Sundance Publishing.

Jane L: Are these ISBN numbers with the bar codes?

Marianne: No, bar code is another expense. I let my printer/publisher take care of that but you can also order bar codes for a book. Contact Uniform Code Council, 8163 Old Yankee Road, Dayton, OH 45458

SaraJ: I'm not sure I understand. Does "earning back your investment" mean you made money, or you broke even?

Marianne: It means I got back what it cost me to do the book, my initial $3000.

Josilina: Have you made more by self publishing than with the other publishers?

Marianne: Not so far, since I reinvested. I also like getting an advance from the Big Guys when I can!

MRSfields: Do you find that a self-published book is afforded the same respect as one with a traditional publisher?

Marianne: It depends. SCBWI doesn't look at that route so highly and most reviewers won't touch them, but small bookstores, schools, gift shops, YOUR READERS, all don't care as long as it's a quality product.

Dolly: Do you recommend that a new writer go through a traditional publisher first before spending all the time and money to self-publish? A new writer could spend all that money and end up eating a lot of books for a very long time.

Marianne: Yes, I would definitely recommend trying the traditional route first, unless you are in a hurry or you have a book that would only appeal to a certain niche market or you are doing a family memoir kind of thing.

Moderator: What would you do differently if you decided to self-publish another book?

Marianne: Good question! For one, I would use a bigger font like Bookman Old Style. I would use wider margins and not waste a page on an order form. I would not waste money on advertising because that didn't earn one single sale and I wouldn't waste my time trying to interest the big review journals in the books since they generally don't review self-published works.

Yella: I have some stories that I feel will make a great book and other stories I am more willing to shop around and risk rejection. What motivates you to self publish some of your work and what prompts you to go with a publisher for others?

Marianne: Again, it depends on the project. A collection of your own short stories sounds like a good candidate for a self-published book since it would be hard to interest a traditional publisher in that. On the other hand, I am now trying to sell a mid-grade mystery to a regular publisher. But if I don't get some bites pretty soon, those extra nine ISBN numbers I have just might get used!

wendymh: Do you find that the business part of self publishing and all the details that need attention take too much time away from writing?

Marianne: Yeah, it's a drag, but getting checks in the mail makes up for it. It's very important to understand the business side of doing it yourself. You will not sell books if you don't get out and hustle and promote, and be absolutely shameless about it. No one else will shout your praises but you, but you will also learn a great deal about marketing so when you DO publish with the Big Guys, you will know what to do.

wendymh: If you enjoy marketing your own book and enjoy the business end of self publishing, do you make more money self publishing as compared to publishing with a traditional publisher?

Marianne: Some people make a lot of money at it. The kind of book that works best for this is nonfiction because you can do speaking engagements, talk shows, buy ads and people know right away what your book is about. A novel is harder because people have to be lured into reading it. I met a self-published picture book author last month who has sold over 90,000 of his books and they look great but he really works hard at it.

MRSfields: Where did you advertise -- just from curiosity.

Marianne: I was targeting the Swedish-American population so I bought ads in their cultural magazines and newspapers.

ziegler: You said you would not have spent any money at all on advertisement--what would you do instead?

Marianne: I bought print ads in magazines and newspapers that I thought my Swede customers would read. What worked better was writing an article in those same magazines about my book and how I came to write it. The article went in at a full page and was free and sold lots of books!

Jane L: Where do you market your self published books, especially after you sell to your family and friends?

Marianne: My main market is the local school book fairs and any talks I give on writing. I also have placed the book in about 12-14 Scandinavian gift shops and museums across the country and also a museum shop in Sweden and I sell through my website, on Amazon and Barnesandnoble.com.

SaraJ: How did you find out about the specialty gift shops and museums...on the Internet?

Marianne: On the Internet and by reading their ads in magazines and by having visited their shops in my travels.

Moderator: What has worked well in selling your self-published book? What didn't work?

Marianne: Giving talks at school, cultural events, writing conferences all have worked well in selling the book. Like I said, advertising was a bummer. One other point. If you can get someone else to write an article about your book, take the offer! Children's Book Insider did a two page spread on me and Over the Waves.

wendymh: Is it best to self publish a nonfiction book that has a regional interest or a broader interest?

Marianne: Hi, Wendy. Yes, regional does help. For one thing, libraries are hard to interest in your self-published book unless it has a local connection. Librarians rely so much on review journals, they just don't have the time to read every book that comes in. I can't get the Tucson library to take my book Over the Waves because it's not set in the desert. I am close to getting the Omaha library to take it because part of it is set in Omaha.

MRSfields: How important do you feel a personal website is for a self-published book?

Marianne: I'm only just learning how that can help but others say it is vital in promoting your book and you as an author. For one thing, teachers and librarians like to read up about you before inviting you to speak at the school. And you can post a sample chapter on your web site to give customers a taste, just like if they were holding it in a bookstore.

wendymh: When you attend a writers conference, is it okay to set up a table to sell your own books or do they sell table space?

Marianne: It all depends on the conference and how they are set up. For example, at the recent National SCBWI conference in LA, only the featured authors' books were sold. However at a smaller conference or a city book fair, you can buy a table and sell.

SaraJ: Are there any groups for self-published authors to join? Like, to pool ideas?

Marianne: There are national groups like SPAN (www.spanpub.com). If you do a search on the Internet under "self-publishing" you'll find that information. One friend relies on them a lot for marketing advice. She has done very well with three activity books for kids. I'm sure she could have sold them to regular publishers but she's happier doing it herself.

Moderator: Marianne, there's some confusion... What's the difference between self-publishing, print-on-demand, and e-publishing?

Marianne: Okay, hold on for a long answer. Self-publishing like I did means you do all the work except the actual printing. You are the author, the editor, marketing director, art director, mail room clerk, business person, etc. Some companies will do some of these jobs for you, but you then have to settle for a royalty system to get your money back. Sometimes, you may take years to earn back your investment. I preferred to pay it all up front and work to get it back myself.

With e-publishing your book is stored electronically and people buy it through a provider. They can download the text to their computer or have it downloaded to a hand-held reader. It will probably work best for academic textbooks. Publishers Weekly reports that it is still too expensive for most people and few people are buying ebooks. I put one of my brother's books up as an e-book and in two years we sold only 3 copies for a whopping $3.75. You won't get back much money with an e-book.

Print on demand books are printed up and sent out when someone orders one, thus saving a lot on printing costs and warehousing. However, most big bookstore won't carry POD books and B&N just announced that they will no longer carry them because there are no returns. POD books also cost a lot more. For example, my novel would retail at $21.00 if it were POD. I could buy it myself at a discount for $12.60. But I wanted a book I could sell at schools to kids and I thought that was just way too much to ask.

MBVoelker: Are there any traps to beware when looking into self-publishing? Things that don't come up until part way through the project?

Marianne: I wouldn't say "traps" exactly, but you do need to watch out for the hype. The books on self-publishing and the ads for these companies all make it sound so easy (it is!) and so sexy (don't know about that!) but they also fail to mention all the hard work. Anyone can get a book published; it's not that hard. The trick is to write the best book you can, one that will compete with what's out there, and one that looks good as a product. You must stop thinking about your book as your "baby" and look at it objectively as a product to sell. Study covers of books that you like and spend extra to get a good, attractive cover. Get a real nit-picky, not close friend, to read your ms. for errors and then take her advice to make it better.

wendymh: Is self publishing good for the home-schooling market?

Marianne: I would think it would be great for that market.

Moderator: Can picture books be self-published? If so, tell us the differences involved.

Marianne: Yes, you can self-publish a picture book but it will cost a lot more. You have to get someone to do the art or do it yourself. Then you have to have it scanned for printing. You have to find a printer who does that kind of book, usually overseas like in Singapore or Hong Kong. Then you may have to get investors. I know of one picture book author who sold "shares" in his book to his friends to help with the costs. Another author took out a second mortgage. In both cases they spent about $12,500.

Josilina: Is the cost of an illustration more than a page with just words?

Marianne: Yes, to print a book with color illustrations is more. But if you have a book with black and white line drawings, that is just like text to the printer and you can send in "camera ready" pages. Those pages get photocopied so the color is not a factor.

Moderator: You mentioned getting an attractive cover earlier... Just how important is the book cover?

Marianne: The cover is vital. Think how you shop for a book. The cover attracts you, interests you. Kids like to see kids on the cover of their book, so when I hired my illustrator I asked her to do the two main characters. Even the back side is important. There you can write a "blurb" about your book or include some extra information about you.

MBVoelker: You're talking about these companies that help you print on demand. What about laying everything out on your computer in a good desktop publishing program and taking the file to the best printer in town? I've seen some very slick and professional business publications done that way.

Marianne: You could do that. But shop around and see what their final product looks like first.

Moderator: If you did a book again, which route would you choose? Why?

Marianne: I would go back to my same printer, Morris, and do basically the same kind of book. I am not interested in an e-book or a print on demand book. I want a real book I can hold in my hand, store in my house, and cart off to book fairs and sell directly to kids.

Moderator: Did you advertise your self-published book in the usual trade magazines like School Library Journal?

Marianne: No, I didn't even try because I figured the cost would be too high and I wasn't even sure they would take an ad for my book. I did manage to get a good review in the Midwest Book Review and I would try to get a copy of the next book to them soon so I could include their comments on my cover or in any ads I might take out.

Moderator: How did you get your book reviewed there?

Marianne: I sent them a copy of the book, like I did to all the other reviewers. School Library Journal, Kirkus, Horn Book, and others. Midwest Book Review looks kindly on us "small publishers"!

Just Joan: Do you need their permission to include their review comments?

Marianne: I believe there is a limit of 20 words you can quote from a review, although their entire review is up on amazon, but listed like a reader review.

AZDanetta: To get their 20 words of review on your cover (or inside) must you send them an advance copy?

Marianne: I send the reviewer an advanced copy in order to get the review to quote. After that, I can use up to 20 words without asking permission.

Moderator: How do you get your book into bookstores? If you don't go there in person, how can libraries and schools get your print book?

Marianne: I use direct mail for most of my bookstore, gift shop, and library submissions. Schools will call me when they get my flyer and often ask me to talk to the kids. It really helps if your book can have some tie-in with school curriculum. With Over the Waves, which is set at the start of World War I, I tie it to a history lesson, or I tie it to preserving family stories, since mine is based on a family story.

Moderator: You mentioned needing an ISBN and Library of Congress catalogue number. How do you get one? What about bar codes?

Marianne: Glad you asked.. Here are some websites: For ISBN go to:www.bowker.com. For Library of Congress number go to: http://lcweb2.loc.gov.pen. For copyright go to: http://lcweb.loc.gov.copyright/

Moderator: Does self-publishing e-books basically require the same thing?

Marianne: The companies that do e-books will often supply the ISBN but sometimes ask the author to secure the copyright themselves.

Moderator: I know that Writer's Digest now gives yearly awards in the Self-Published Category. What do some of the award-winning books have in common?

Marianne: I thought about entering my book but didn't. I would say they probably all have a great cover, a nifty title, a clear layout (easy on the eyes for the reader), they are well-organized, and they have been edited and cut so they are not full of fluff. Basically, they are as good as they can possibly be.

AZDanetta: So how many advance copies do you print? These early review copies are for demo only and not going to make you money directly?

Marianne: I ordered all 1000 copies at once. I could have waited to release the book and sent out review copies but I wasn't very dependent on reviews. You must understand that for a self publisher, reviews aren't really that important. The Big Guys need them because they want to make a lot of sales fast before they put the book out of print. But a self-publisher can take his or her own sweet time with the book. That baby doesn't go out of print until you say so!

SaraJ: Let's say I had a middle grade or young adult novel that I wanted to self-publish, and I had the money; can you give us a step-by-step procedure to doing it? I wouldn't want to forget important steps.

Marianne: Okay. Step 1 is to write the best, most polished book you can. No skimping on details just because you aren't out to impress an editor. Be wickedly tough on yourself! And have others read and critique it who will also be tough. Then, study the market. Know who you will be selling to and how. Is there a market for your book? How will you reach it? Hire a professional editor to copyedit the work before you send it to the printer. There are places on the Net where you can find a professional editor. Then decide on the format you are going to choose. Will it be a regular paperback novel, or hard cover? Will you choose an e-book or print on demand? Then research what company does the kind of book you want and for what cost. After that choice, you are pretty much in their hands until it's done. They will tell you if you need ISBN or bar codes or what cover design to choose. And while you wait for your books, start your promotion going.

wendymh: Does all this apply to publishing your own magazine for children?

Marianne: Ohh! I don't have any experience in publishing a magazine but I would guess that finding a good printer is key.

JAMES55CLINTON: What's the difference between an editor and a copyeditor?

Marianne: An editor will help you with content and style while a copyeditor is so "anal" he/she will go nuts if you have italicized a period or a comma when you shouldn't have. The copyeditor should also be looking for typos and inversions and missing lines.

Yella: I have written a couple of short stories and rhymes that will be about 10 pages in length. I have an illustrator as well. Given this information, what first steps should I take for self publishing and what would my projects cost roughly?

Marianne: Ten pages is pretty small and some publishers might not take on such a small project. I would suggest you find a publisher who specializes in picture books and find out his costs and needs.

SaraJ: If I wanted to self-publish but put it online, how can you publicize such a book since you can't take it to schools or talks with you?

Marianne: You can use your web site, advertise in chat rooms and "sly" messages on message boards.

Moderator: I'll add something here, Sara. One helpful how-to book is HOW TO PUBLISH AND PROMOTE ONLINE by Angela Adair-Hoy and MJ Rose. They both made lots of money self-publishing online and their book tells how they did it with free ads in specialty e-magazines and where to find those magazines online, and they give you all kinds of URLs for finding many places to advertise (mostly free). You might as well advertise online because you're then reaching most of your readers, since they will be computer savvy people who are comfortable with this format and don't mind reading on their computers a lot.

Jenny: You mentioned needing to have good art on your cover. If you don't know any professional artists, can you maybe ask the art teacher at your school to draw it or a student maybe?

Marianne: I wouldn't risk that. A friend had a student do her cover and inside art and it turned out awful. You would be better off choosing from the pre-designed covers the printer has or having them do your cover for extra money.

SaraJ: One more dumb question: do you share the expenses with the illustrator, then share the money you make?

Marianne: My illustrator was so nice she only wanted a flat fee for her art, and a modest fee at that. She also let me have the copyright to her art which is unusual but it frees me to use it all I want.

Moderator: What is a normal amount or average amount to pay for cover art?

Marianne: A good place to find out is a website called The Drawing Board. My illustrator only charged me $175 which is very cheap, I think.

Moderator: Yes it is! Also, with some illustrators, you can get the right to use the art just for advertising purposes, like on bookmarks, but the artist retains the copyright to her art. For you artists in the group I just wanted to point out that you can also sell your art work for a pretty good price--the original of the cover--after the book is published, especially if it sells well. In fact, quite often the author him/herself is the one who will buy it and frame it for their office wall!

Marianne: Yes, and promotion is key. I plan to do bookmarks and postcards when my picture books come out.

Moderator: I'm sorry to interrupt here, but I'm afraid we're out of time. Thanks for coming tonight, Marianne, and answering our questions about this new wave of self-publishing and its many options--and challenges! We appreciate your insights!

Marianne: Let me say that self-publishing may be a lot of work, but it is fun. And it is possible to earn big bucks. An author in Oregon sold the rights to his book to Putnam Penguin for 1.8 million! Bye, all! Stay safe!

Moderator: Do come back in two weeks on October 25 when Dorothy Francis, author of over 50 books for children, will be talking about "Character Growth" in your short stories and books. Change in the protagonist is a subconscious need of almost every reader--and it's what editors look for. This change and growth makes a story entertaining and instructive as it points up a strong and worthwhile theme. But how do you realistically show character growth and make it believable? Come back in two weeks to find out! In the meantime, happy writing!

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