“Working Together as a Writer and Illustrator Team”

with Linda Lowery and Richard Keep

Thursday, December 8, 2005

Violet shows answers to questions given by Linda Lowery.

Brown shows answers to questions given by Rick Keep.

Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked either Linda or Rick, or both Linda and Rick.

Linda: Muchas Gracias, Mel!

Linda: Rick's favorite holiday has always been Halloween—big time. And he loves rhyme, and so do I. So we decided to give it a whack and I sent three illustrations and the text to my editor at Random House, and they loved it.

Rick: Then she decided to let me keep working with her, but only because the book Trick or Treat hit the New York Times list.

Linda: It was AWESOME! I happened to call my Random House editor about something else one morning, and she said they'd never had a picture book hit the list, so they were in shock.

Linda: So were we!

Gary Dees: WELCOME Linda AND RICHARD!!! Happy almost-birthday!

Linda: Hi, Gary! Glad you're here!

cjlm: Good evening. Did you have a sense when you wrote and illustrated Trick or Treat that it would be that successful?

Linda: Well, that's always hard to predict. What is successful is, as you know, not necessarily your finest work. But I must say, we had SO MUCH FUN doing that book that there was a sense it might be a big hit.

Linda: Absolutely everywhere. From dreams, from life experiences, from people we meet, especially those here in Mexico.

Linda: I was finishing my Day of the Dead book for Carolrhoda Books. I wanted an authentic story, so Rick and I did research in San Miguel.

Linda: It's an artists and writers community. Very inspiring. In four years, we've completed 8 books!!!

Linda: By the way, I presented my three new Lerner books that were just translated into Spanish. I spoke at the Guadalajara Book Fair last week for 30 minutes in Spanish!

Linda: Even the publisher was there. The great news is the audience understood every word, and bought lots of books!!!

Linda: If the writer is a terrific artist as well, or is married to an artist, great. Send it all in; but in the cover letter, let the editor know that if they don't love the art, you are still willing to sell the text. If you are not an artist, NEVER have a friend or relative do the art for your text. The publisher will probably not accept your text in that case. They prefer to have the control over their choice of artist.

Rick: And the publisher really does know how to pick the best artist. Sometimes, if you're a new writer, a publisher will hook you up with a well-known artist to help market the book better. So that way, it's a win-win.

lilwriter: my mom in law is an artist/teacher I have heard negative things about co-writing/illustrating with friends/family. Can you give your opinion?

Linda: Have your mother-in-law send her art samples to the art directors of a few key publishing houses. You send your text separately to editors. Do not submit these together.

teriabc: Have you ever used, do you ever use an agent? Pros? Cons?

Linda: No, I tried once or twice, but the agents I hired were not helpful. Therefore, I fired them within a month. HOWEVER, there is certainly a place for agents. Rick will explain.

Linda: Another note on agents: I recently hired a PR agent. That's what I need right now. I have no trouble selling my books to publishers. I have trouble getting my books properly marketed. I'm finding my PR agent is excellent.

g_logger: Hi Linda and Rick, thank you for joining us tonight! You have never used an agent before and most of us new writers have not either. What are you looking for in an agent? Where are you looking, and how did you decide to look there?

Linda: If you are just getting started sending out manuscripts, I'd certainly give agents a try. Just never hook up with an agent who wants you to pay them in advance for anything.

g_logger: Your book, Somebody Somewhere Knows My Name, changed my writing life. Thank you for writing it. It rates above White Oleander. It is that powerful. Was there something that you saw that told you to write this?

Linda: WOW! Let's just say that this one and Laurie Tells are based on childhood experiences. Although I was never abandoned on the street as Grace and Will are in Somebody, I knew those feelings of total abandonment deeply. To put me back in that lonely, deeply felt writing place, I stayed in a shelter for several nights in Minneapolis. Thanks for the question. It's hard to write those kinds of books, but the rewards are huge. You have the honor of giving lots of kids courage and hope.

lilwriter: How do you gain the "professional" title of illustrator?

lilwriter: What did you mean when you talked about a collage book?

Rick: Cut and painted papers. I paint them first, then cut them out, and assemble them into illustrations. I now really love working with the Mexican papers, like amate (made from bark), since they give a colorful flavor to my work.

Linda: Some people refer to collage as montage.

Linda: Yes, Eric Carle's books are collage. Wonderful, aren't they!

Linda: Mil Gracias, Mel.

cookies: Do you submit a dummy book in collage form?

charweb: Good evening. When was the year Somewhere Somebody Knows My Name was published?

Linda: I don't remember, so Rick is running over to the bookshelf to check for me. OK. It was published in 1995. Still in print, thanks to Catholic Charities who give it to every child who comes through their Minneapolis children's shelter. Lovely, huh?

Linda: It IS such a PLUS! Not only am I so touched that children receive the book—hardcover—but also from a marketing standpoint, it's excellent. As I mentioned, publishers are notorious for not marketing their writers. It's their job to market their brand. So your books are not necessarily pushed or kept in print.

cjlm: Could you please discuss more about preparing collage art for submission?

Rick: What would you like to know about collage? I can tell you that I create each picture just a little larger than it's printed in the book. I make a HUGE mess.

Linda: He DOES make a HUGE mess! And so do I. Papers and bits and paint tracked all over the house! I use any papers that are thin enough to work with and don't make a shadow (unless I want a shadow). I use nothing shiny or glittery. I first do the backgrounds, then create the images for them.

Rick: A beginner should still do a sketch dummy, with the text written either in the image or under the image. The art director will get a good sense of style and execution by looking at the full-color sample the artist sends with the dummy. One of the problems of sending a finished, full-color dummy is that you really want to show the art director your BEST pieces.

Linda: Yes, you want to show the art director your best pieces. If all 24 or 32 pages are absolutely fantastic samples of your art, go ahead and send a full-color final dummy. If not, send your three best pages from the dummy.

Linda: COST. Money, cash, dinero. Picture books are very costly. If an editor/publisher thinks they can sell a 24-page book as well as a 32-page book, they will cut the cost down to make more profit. It's only logical. If, however, you cannot tell your story properly in a shortened version, you need to discuss that with your editor. We talk business as well as art and writing when we make decisions with our editors. The WHOLE picture is important. We writers and artists can be temperamental, but not stubborn asses.

Rick: Our first picture book was in 2000. It was 32 pages. Every other Random House book we’ve done since has been 24, because the big mass-market publishers are, as you suggest, cutting back.

Linda: Peachtree kept Rick's Clatter Bash! and Mr. Boo at 32 pages, because they knew the stories needed a longer version. If I were just starting in the business, I would definitely submit a 24-page proposal. It will probably sell more easily.

Rick: Are we clear enough? If not, ask.

jolie: Do you gravitate to the age that your books sell to?

Linda: No. I'm not a person who looks at the market and then creates the book. Although sometimes that can work. I write at whatever age level is calling to me at the moment. I just finished a young adult book—Truth and Salsa—about Mexican dads crossing the border for work. I didn't even know I was writing a YA until my editor identified it as one.

hugh6: I'm sorry, but what exactly is a "dummy"?

Linda: You only submit a dummy if you are an illustrator and writer. A writer does not worry about a dummy. That's the job of the art director and the chosen illustrator. Also, if you are just an illustrator, you do not submit a dummy. You only submit samples of your work. If you are given an assignment, the art director will then ask you to produce a dummy of someone else's text.

obrienj: I really appreciate your thoughts about pictures, it is my first time ever!

g_logger: Rick, did you really teach military students like ours to build giant crayon boxes?

lilwriter: Publishers want professional illustrations or pictures, I have heard. Is that true, Linda and Rick?

Rick: Yes, and the publishers have two departments that you as a book creator will work with. One is the editorial department. You submit your text to an editor in that department, and work with them on the manuscript. The other is the art department. They have nothing to do (usually) with your text changes. Their job is to make certain your text is beautifully illustrated. They keep a file of artists’ and illustrators' samples. From those, they choose which artist's style works best with your text.

Linda: You do not have to be a “professional" illustrator to submit work to an art director. You just have to be good.

eggamy: What did you write first, Rick and Linda?

Linda: My very first manuscript was about a pea whose parents got divorced. See, even we pros started with ridiculous stuff.

Linda: Then I wrote The Spell of the Winter Wizard, which was published in 1983 by TSR, Dungeons and Dragons. I had to cry in order to get my manuscript read by an editor—SAD!

Rick: Trick or Treat was mine. It was in rhyme, and alphabetical, so it was right up my alley.

Linda: Of course, I helped him!!!

Linda: I totally wanted to be a children's book writer. I wanted to stay home with my baby boy, and was working at the time at The Playboy Resort (No, not a bunny!!!). My neighbor across the street was writing the Choose Your Own Adventure Dungeons and Dragons books. She said if I wanted be a writer, I had to write a book, give it to her and she’d take it to her editor. I wrote the book, and she was flabbergasted. She said, "Nobody ever really writes a book when I tell them that! TSR doesn't work with freelancers!" She tried to send me away. I sobbed right in front of her. "You HAVE to bring this to your editor!" I cried. It worked. She felt sorry for little pathetic me, took the book to the editor, and came back two months later with the news. Yes! I became their first freelancer.

g_logger: For those of us who don't wanna cry, what are your words of wisdom about getting published, Linda?

Linda: Cry, Gary, cry! Just kidding. Come down to San Miguel and take our workshop! Actually, I think the best way is to write, write, write, and once you have the manuscript as far as you can take it, read it to kids in a few classrooms. You'll skip over parts that bore the kids. Those are the parts you cut. Then pass it by your instructor at the Institute, if you have one, or a very tough, well-read friend. Have friends read it to their kids. When it's ready, make sure your cover letter is drop-dead great, about who you are, how marketable the book is, etc. Spell everything perfectly.

charweb: Which one was your first PICTURE BOOK?

LINDA: Mine was Twist With A Burger, Jitter With A Bug, which sold to Houghton Mifflin. I did the text only.

Rick: Mine was Trick or Treat, It's Halloween. I've done four more since, both writing and illustrations.

kaye: For you both: It must be great to work together all the time.

Rick: Well, we're still married!

Linda: Actually, it's fabulous most of the time, but then we need space to do separate projects.

kaye: What is the PR agent you mentioned?

Linda: It's a public relations agent, a person who helps you promote your work. They'll help you book school visits, conventions, public appearances. They keep your name in the public eye, send out PR releases when a new book comes out, etc. I don't think it's common for children's writer's to have PR agents, but more and more it's becoming necessary, because books go out of print quickly, and we authors need to do what we can to keep them in print and selling. We don't have a lot of time to do that ourselves, because we're busy writing and illustrating, no?

Linda: No. A literary agent's job is to get your work in front of publishers and to sell your work. There are more and more literary agents who are willing to do some publicity for you, but they don't have the same resources that a PR agent has. As a beginning writer, go for a literary agent. Later, when you're established, consider a PR agent.

cookies: Is there a great demand in Mexico for children's books?

Linda: The demand for children's books has been practically nonexistent in the past in Mexico. Books are expensive, and Mexico does not have a national library system like we do in the States, so some school libraries might have TEN books in them. But suddenly, with the growth of the Hispanic American populations of book buyers, many publishers are putting money and energy into Spanish-language translations. When I was at the Guadalajara Book Fair last week, I saw an amazing thing happening! Mexico is benefiting from the Spanish-language boom in the States. We are going to see a lot of growth in book-buying in Mexico. If your heart is in Hispanic or Mexican-themed books, GET OUT THERE! It's what's happening, and it's very hot! Send out those manuscripts.

caq: What percent does the PR agent get?

Linda: Ten percent of all programs booked. No % on book sales themselves.

Linda: Want to know more about the PR agent?

Linda: For instance, I have two books in print about Aunt Clara Brown, the only black woman to be named a Colorado Pioneer of the Gold Rush. Amazing story, and I kept the film rights when I sold the second book to Random House. I proceeded to contact Morgan Freeman's production firm, l among others, and he's interested in making the book into an HBO film. HOWEVER, I have to help look for co-production funds if this is going to happen. My wonderful PR agent is working on funding from sources I never would have imagined. She's sending out all the PR info about me, and Clara, etc. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Linda: Yes. (Oh, my gawd!) But his firm, Revelations Entertainment, let me know that the story is production heavy, with wagons west and all, and it will take some time before I have the honor of shaking his hand on a done deal. It's happening...very s-l-o-w-l-y, as things tend to work in both the film and the publishing industries.

lilwriter: During a previous session a while back there was talk about what qualifies a writer in the eyes of a publisher. What are your thoughts on that, please?

Linda: What makes a writer "qualify" in the eyes of a publisher? GOOD WRITING. Writing that comes right from the heart, and is honest and original. When you have that, go through your Writer's Market and submit over and over again. But if you're writing about a divorced pea, go on to your next project. J And keep submitting.

teriabc: Linda, what is the TSR you mentioned in connection with Dungeons and Dragons a while ago?

Linda: TSR is the company that created Dungeons and Dragons. They were located in my home town of Lake Geneva, Wisconsin at the time. I think they may have sold D&D since then?

Linda: Yes, but I'm sure what they're doing these days. I was not drawn to D&D fantasy, but it's where I got my start in children's book writing, and for that I'm grateful.

caq: I am confused, I have been told you do not submit the dummies. They are for your own benefit and you don't submit illustrations. If we aren't illustrating, we just submit the picture book in manuscript form, don't we?

Linda: If you are a writer, you never submit a dummy.

Rick: If you are a writer/illustrator, you submit a cover letter, text, sketch dummy (I put the words in mine in pencil in addition to the separate text), and three great color copy samples of pages from your proposed book. I have never heard of a writer submitting a dummy. To my knowledge, the page breakdown is mostly up to the illustrator and art director.

cjlm: Can writers submit their manuscripts to publishers in a "cut and paste" form?

Rick: No. Type your manuscripts. Make no mistakes. Double-space.

bucky dee: Is it okay to send my hubby's professional photography with my text?

Linda: That depends. If neither of you has published before, you could be stacking the deck against acceptance if either your writing or his photography isn't equally superb.

Rick: If, however, you are a superb duo, go ahead and give it a shot. A publisher can only say NO, and then if you find you are rejected a few times, re-think whether you may want to submit separately. You would submit to the editor, your husband to the art director.

Linda: Good luck!

kaye: What about a PHOTO that illustrates a story?

Rick: One photo? Or a whole book of photos?

Rick: If you are both the photographer and the writer, Kaye, you can certainly submit your photos as the illustrations. Again, be prepared if the editor wants only your text, and would rather illustrate your book in another style.

omalizzie: About how many words might make a 24-page PB (picture book)?

Linda: I think Twist With A Burger was about 30 words.

Rick: Clatter Bash was about the same, except I wrote two pages of back matter.

Linda: A picture book, of course, can have NO WORDS.

g_logger: Rick, is Max really in A Thump from Upstairs: Starring Mr. Boo and Max?

Rick: Yes, Gary, he's sitting on the computer desk right now yelling because I haven't fed him his dinner yet.

eggamy: Linda, did you start out writing picture books? What did you write?

Linda: No, I started with Choose Your Own Adventure-type middle grade books. Then I went to school/library On My Own readers for K-5. I always wanted to write Laurie Tells sorts of books, but those came later when I was ready for them, and had contacts in the publishing business.

CW: I really want to write children's books as well as books for adolescents, but I am no artist. I want to know if pictures from my camera will work just as well for publishers.

Linda: Hey, CW, just WRITE! Who told you that you needed photos or pictures to accompany your fine writing? Your writing is what you are going to sell. Let the publisher worry about the pictures and photos. If your writing is your strength, don't worry about sending in illustrations at this point. Once you sell your story, you can talk with the publisher about your art.

JM: I too am a writer and illustrator. I'd like to know if it really makes a difference to submit illustration samples along with your story.

NL: Thanks for dropping in this evening! As a former ESL (English as a Second Language) teacher, I know how important it is for kids to see their native cultures reflected in literature. There are many wonderful Hispanic-themed stories out there (including yours!), but I'm wondering about lesser-known cultures. Are publishers open to these kinds of stories (fiction), even if only a small percent of the population can directly identify with these settings?

Linda: I think many publishers are VERY open to cultural exploration (including Lerner, Lee & Low, etc.). Kids need those books, and publishers are very successful, particularly in the school/library market, with multicultural books.

Linda: You bet!

Rick: Our pleasure, Mel!

jolie: Sounds like loads of fun!

Linda: Can we quote you on that?

Linda: Gracias, Mel. We'll be updating our website for more workshop info.

obrienj: Linda and Rick, this was awesome, I am still very new to this but it is very inspiring! Thanks again, everyone, I will look to the archives for more!

cjlm: CONGRATULATIONS on your success as writers/illustrators!

cosmos: Linda and Rick, thank you for coming. I appreciate your insight and specific information that will help many of us.

g_logger: Thank you, Linda and Richard.

Linda: This was really FUN! Hasta Luego!

Rick: Thanks, we'll be in touch with you by e-mail, Mel.

kaye: You have both been awesome! Thanks.