Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Thursday, October 28, l999

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of more than twenty juvenile novels and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for l5 years.

Linda is Linda Wirkner. Her book Mystery of the Blue-Gowned Ghost received l7 rejections before acceptance and is now in its 4th printing. Her articles and stories have appeared in magazines including Children's Digest, Guideposts for Kids, Appleseeds, Hopscotch, Boys' Quest and others. Linda currently serves as Regional Advisor for the Mid-Atlantic chapter of SCBWI.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everybody! I'm Kristi Holl, your moderator for this evening's interview and the web editor for this site. Tonight we're going to be talking about two subjects very near and (sometimes not so dear) to a writer's heart: rejection and revision. Linda Wirkner is with us tonight to help us learn how to profit from the dreaded rejection slip. Linda Wirkner's book Mystery of the Blue-Gowned Ghost received l7 rejections before acceptance and is now in its 4th printing. She will be sharing with us how she revises and perseveres until she turns those rejections into acceptances. Hello, Linda!

Linda: Hi, everyone. It's good to be here this evening.

MODERATOR: First, Linda, how did you get started writing? Did you always want to be a writer?

Linda: When I was a junior in high school I took a creative writing course and became fascinated with making up stories. I wrote in my diary that someday I'd like to write a book and get it published. Actually, I still have that diary! I wanted to major in journalism in college, but ended up becoming a teacher instead. But I kept telling myself that *someday* I was going to write a book. When we lived in Indonesia I couldn't get a work permit from the government. I had a lot of time on my hands due to the lifestyle there and suddenly I realized *someday* had come. I wrote my first book while living on the island of Borneo.

MODERATOR: Neat! Do you now combine writing with parenting or another job?

Linda: My two children are grown now and no longer live at home. All the work I do is related to writing in some way. I'm an instructor for the Institute and I teach writing classes at a local university in their continuing education department.

MODERATOR: What kind of work schedule (daily/weekly) to you keep to?

Linda: I'm a night owl, so I usually work until about 2 a.m. or so. I like to have a couple of writing projects going at the same time. This works particularly well when the writing jobs I'm doing are fairly long. Being able to switch back and forth between projects keeps me from getting burned out on one or the other. I like to keep one fiction and one nonfiction project going at once. But my biggest challenge /problem is to juggle my regular writing jobs with time to work on the novels I have in progress. I guess we all struggle in one way or another finding enough time.

Willie Willow Tree: Linda, what do you like to write? What age group do you write for?

Linda: I like to write middle grade and YA. And I do both fiction and nonfiction, especially like nature and history nonfiction. Right now I'm revising a YA novel.

MODERATOR: We'll talk about rejections first tonight. Tell us about your first rejection slip.

Linda: My first rejection was for a YA short story; because it was a form slip, it didn't really tell me anything about why my story was rejected. I was disappointed, of course. I had been haunting the mailbox for weeks, hoping for a glowing letter and a check! But I've always been a fairly practical person, and I immediately looked for another magazine to send the story to.

MODERATOR: A viewer says he hasn't submitted his story because he's afraid it might get rejected. What should he do?

Linda: Well, you have two choices. You can toss the story in a drawer and avoid the possibility of rejection. Or you can take a chance and put the manuscript in the mail. But, there's one thing I guarantee. A manuscript in a drawer will never sell. An editor is not going to come knocking on your door looking for a story to publish. Yes, you'r taking a risk when you mail your work to a publisher. But, you know something? Rejections are simply part of the business of writing. I heard Jane Yolen say on a list serve that she still gets rejections. And she's published over 200 books! See what good company you're in!

MODERATOR: How many rejections are too many? In other words, when should I just give up on a story?

Linda: I never give up on a ms. until I've exhausted every possible market. I've had mss. accepted by the first market I've approached, while others went to 21 markets before finding a *home*. My history mystery Mystery of the Blue-Gowned Ghost took 4 1/2 years and 17 publishers before it was accepted. That book is now in its 4th printing and is used extensively to introduce Colonial History units. Persistence is a big part of becoming published.

Willie Willow Tree: Did you change the story or just sent it out again?

Linda: After several rejections, I did some more revising before I started submitting it again, and even after it was accepted, my editor wanted more revisions.

Ducky: How many revisions did you do after it was rejected the first time?

Linda: One major revision and then bits and pieces here and there.

Seahorse: Were these single submissions?

Linda: Yes. I sent to only one publication at a time.

Willie Willow Tree: What is the magic number of rejections you receive before you revise the manuscript?

Linda: That's a good question. But, there really isn't a magic number. After a half a dozen or so rejections, I read through the ms. again. Sometimes, I see things that need to be changed then and sometimes not.

Maudy: How frequently have you found editors willing to give suggestions?

Linda: These days I usually get pretty specific comments on my mss. but when I first started submitting, mostly I got form letters.

Willie Willow Tree: Do you ever take a rejection letter to mean the story isn't good enough?

Linda: Actually, no I don't. I never submit anything unless I think I've done my best on it. And, really, it's a matter of finding the right publisher for a particular ms. What's right for one editor may be totally wrong for another.

MODERATOR: What if an editor rejects my manuscript with a letter that says it's not right for his magazine and you know it's perfect for that publication. Is it all right to write a very pointed letter telling him he doesn't seem to know what his magazine needs?

Linda: Absolutely not! Editors do make note of that sort of thing. And they do talk to each other. Your nasty letter may just become *trade gossip*. It's difficult enough to get published. Don't tip the odds against yourself. If you're really upset about the rejection, go ahead and write that letter. Vent your anger then, tear it up or delete it from your screen and get back to writing.

MODERATOR: Form rejection letters don't give any information as to why the manuscript was rejected. Why don't editors give more feedback on manuscripts?

Linda: The volume of submission prohibits most editors from sending personal letters. 50-90% of all unsolicited mss. are poorly written or inappropriate submissions, i.e. picture book ms. sent to publishers who only publish middle grade or YA novels, short stories sent to magazines that only publish nonfiction, etc.

MODERATOR: What does a rejection letter really mean?

Linda: It means that this particular editor didn't like or couldn't use (for various reasons) this particular story or article or book. Don't take it personally. *You* are not being rejected. Your manuscript is being rejected. There's a big difference.

Ducky: Wouldn't more specific rejections actually reduce the load of bad manuscripts in the future?

Linda: That might be true -- if people actually paid attention to what editors were saying. Some magazine editors do send a checklist type rejection which gives feedback on reasons for the rejection.

Willie Willow Tree: I think it helps to believe in what you write to handle rejection. What other things might help?

Linda: Believing in what you write is important. But, another thing that will help cut down on the number of rejections is for you to send for sample copies and guidelines and really study them to understand the kind of material each magazine uses. Remember: One size does not fit all in the field of children's magazine or book publishers. A story that is just right for Cricket may be totally wrong for another magazine.

Kevin: What are some reasons manuscripts are rejected?

Linda: For magazine submissions: manuscript is way over word count (it's the writer's job to cut and edit *before* submitting), main character is too young/old for magazine audience (market listings contain this kind of information), the magazine doesn't publish short stories (again, read those market listings!) for book publishers sending a YA ms. to a publisher that only does picture books, or any other inappropriate submission will get you a quick rejection, so will stories with no real conflict, boring characters, etc.

pmjv: Do you think that editors ever reject a ms. without reading it?

Linda: Unfortunately, yes. That does occasionally happen. Probably not with magazine submissions. But it does sometimes happen with book publishers.

pmjv: Could a story be rejected because it is too short?

Linda: If you're talking about a story for a magazine, yes. The guidelines and market listings give word counts and editors expect writers to follow those counts because of their particular magazine format.

author2b: Do you suggest starting out submitting to magazines to get your foot in the door?

Linda: Many writers start out writing for magazines. I did. It's a good way to build up clips and credits. Also, because magazines are published monthly and some weekly. They need a lot of material and are more open to new or unpublished writer.

Norene: Is it true when the rejection slips says they already have a similar ms. so that they can't use yours? Are we all so similar?

Linda: Yes, that's actually true. You'd be surprise how many people get the same or similar idea for a story or article. I've often submitted a nonfiction article to a magazine and had the editor tell me she liked that piece but already had an article about that subject scheduled for a future issue.

pmjv: Does the length of the wait for a response tell you anything about how seriously your story was considered?

Linda: Sometimes, editors do hold on to a story for awhile if they're seriously considering it. But sometimes the length has more to do with the large volume of submissions they receive.

stormy: Should you call a magazine with an idea before you send the actual ms. in?

Linda: I wouldn't suggest calling. It's better to send them a query describing your idea.

MODERATOR: What if several publishers have rejected the same piece?

Linda: It's probably time to take a good look at your ms. and consider doing some revising. If you haven't read through it in a while, you may see problems that you've missed. Revise as needed before continuting to submit.

MODERATOR: How can I lower my chances for rejection?

Linda: The very best way is to send for and study sample copies of the magazine. This is more important than you might think. Market listings don't give a real feel for the magazines. I can't tell you how many times I've read a market listing and thought the magazine sounded just right for a story or article I'd written, only to send for a sample copy and discover that my piece wouldn't fit in that magazine at all! The same is true for books. Send for publishers' catalogs and see what kind of titles the pubishers has published. Go to bookstores and libraries and look at books by that publisher.

Ducky: Aren't most guidelines alike?

Linda: All guidelines have certain things in common, i.e. they'll give word counts, information about subjects, etc. That's why actually sending for sample copies is important. You'll learn more about what a magazine actually publishes by reading several issues of the magazine.

Ducky: How do you keep your spirits up after a number of rejections?

Linda: The best way to keep rejections from getting you down is to have several manuscripts circulating at the same time. When you complete one writing project and mail it out, start on another one. That way if one ms. comes back home, you still have x number of hopefuls out there. Another tip: when you finish a ms., make a list of at least 5 possible markets. That way, if your ms. is rejected by the first market, you'll immediately have another one to send it right back on its way.

MODERATOR: I'm going to take a few more viewer questions right now on this subject, then we'll have Linda talk about revision, the other "R" for tonight.

Norene: Do you find that rejections and acceptences take about the same time for the editors return answers?

Linda: Interesting question. Sometimes rejections come back very quickly because it was either totally inappropriate for the market or because the magazine is way overstocked at that time. The response time varies from magazine to magazine.

Willie Willow Tree: Do rejections come for hitting the wrong market for the story (not knowing what a publisher wants)?

Linda: Absolutely! That's one of the biggest reasons for rejection. It pays to study the magazines and catalogs and guidelines.

Kevin: Are there ever any good rejections?

Linda: Yes. If you receive a letter from an editor explaining why she isn't buying this particular ms., but invites you to send her other manuscripts, jump up and down and shout for joy!! You've found an editor who likes your writing. Don't ignore that. Continue to send her manuscripts and hopefully something will click.

author2b: Is it true that it is getting harder to become published?

Linda: Well, publishers (both book and magazine) say they're receiving more and more submissions, and I guess that does translate into the fact that it's hard to get published. There's a lot of competition out there. But it's not impossible. If you practice, practice writing and only send in your best work, you have just as good a chance as anybody else.

MODERATOR: And now . . . switching topics for a while . . . what's the best way to approach revising?

Linda: There's no absolutely right or wrong way to revise. What works for one writer may not work for another. Once you've finished your first draft, however, it's always a good idea to put your ms. aside for awhile. Let it cool off before you begin the revision process. Then, when your're ready to revise, read your ms. as if you've never read it before. Ask yourself questions. For example, does the opening grab your attention? (That's true for both fiction and nonfiction.) If it's fiction, does the story start with something interesting? riveting? exciting? Does it make you want to keep reading? Jot down any and all thoughts you have about the opening at this point. Don't sort or organize then, just put down whatever comes to mind. You can mull over and consider the possibilities later. As you read through your ms., keep asking questions and jotting notes. Is the story's conflict introduced near the beginning? Is the conflict really interesting? Funny? Exciting? Enough to build an entire story around? Some how-to writing books contain checklists for revising that include these and many other questions to ask yourself as you read through your ms. with an eye toward revision.

MODERATOR: Why is it a good idea to put a manuscript aside for a while after you've finished it?

Linda: When you've been working on a piece for hours or days or weeks, you've probably read and reread it many times. When you're too close to your work, your eyes gloss over problem areas. Even awkward sentences tend to sound okay because you've read them so many times. Favorite words and phrases or whole paragraphs are so fixed in your mind that you don't recognize that there are problems. If you set your ms. aside for a period of time, when you go back to it, you'll discover that awkward sentences or wrong words will jump right out at you. In other words, you'll be able to read your ms.. with a fresh eye.

Ducky: How long do you put it aside for? (Before tackling the revision?)

Linda: I'd say anywhere from 3 days to about 6 weeks, depending on the project. Work on something else during the cooling period. But, one thing is true for any project, short or long. Don't fall in love with your first draft. Phyllis Whitney (who's written more than 80 books for children and adults) once said "Good stories are not written. They are rewritten." True, true, true. I have that quote hanging in my office.

pmjv: As an instructor, can you name a few mistakes that are common to beginner writers that would probably get us rejections?

Linda: Going way over word count and telling the editor to feel free to cut as needed... Sending a short story to a magazine that only publishes nonfiction articles... Sending a story with a 5-year-old as a main character to a magazine meant for 12-year-olds.

pmjv: Actually, I meant beginner mistakes that could be mediated with revision.

Linda: Oh, okay. Probably, the number 1 problem I see with student mss. is giving too much background information at the beginning of the story instead of jumping right into the conflict. You'll lose an editor right away if you do that. Also, stories written in all narrative with no character dialogue is a big turn-off, but also something that can be remedied in revising the story.

author2b: How important is a support (critique) group in revising?

Linda: Very important, in my opinion. If you can find other writers to share your mss. with, the feedback can be invaluable. Other writers can often spot problems in a ms. that you've overlooked.

stormy: If you are a first time writer who's never been published is it more likely you will have to do major revisions?

Linda: Not necessarily. When you submit a story to a magazine, the editor won't know whether or not you're a new writer. Your story has to stand by itself, and that's true whether you've been published before or not.

Maudy: Have you always followed the advice an editor has given and revised your work?

Linda: If I reread the ms. and see that the editor's suggestions will make the story better. But sometimes it's a judgment call. There were a couple of major changes my editor suggested for Mystery of the Blue Gowned Ghost that I strongly disagreed with. I explained (politely) my reasoning and we ended up not making those changes.

Ducky: Have you ever argued with an editor's request to revise?

Linda: No. Discussing is fine. And professional. But arguing with an editor will just make it likely that editor won't want to work with you again.

Chief: Is there ever a time when you can spend too much time revising?

Linda: Good question. On rare occasions, it's possible to keep revising beyond the point that you're actually improving your ms. Remember that story about the carpenter who wanted to make the perfect dresser? He sanded and sanded and sanded. When he finished, all he had was a pile of sawdust. This is where getting feedback from other writers is helpful. They can often help you decide when it's time to starte submitting a particular ms.

author2b: Do you ever get to a point where you don't feel one more thing should be changed in your ms.?

Linda: Yes, and that's usually an indicator that your ms. is close to being ready to submit. However, even then, you may find ways to tighten it up. I once had an assignment to write a 1000-word article for Appleseeds magazine and my first draft was around 2500 words. I tend to write long and then do a lot of cutting. I revised the piece at least a dozen times and had it down to 1200 words. After going through it several more times, I didn't think it would benefit from cutting anything else. So I emailed my editor and asked how firm the 1000-word limit was. She said it was very firm and to please keep cutting. And, so I kept going through the ms. and finally got it down to 998 words. Whew! That was hard work. But you can see that it *is* possible.

MODERATOR: How can you cut lines that you think are important or that just have a nice ring to them?

Linda: With practice. The more you revise your work, the better you'll become at it. I think when you're just beginning in the field of writing, it's very hard to let go of your words. But the more you write, the more you practice writing, the better you'll become at understanding that cutting excess words, phrases, sentences, and even whole paragraphs will actually make your story stronger -- the action will move more quickly. Keep in mind that learning to write is no different than learning to do anything else. If someone wants to play tennis, she's going to have to practice a lot in order to be able to play well. If someone wants to play the piano, he would have to spend a lot of time practicing before being able to play well. So, why would anyone expect to become a good writer without practice? And practice means doing a *lot* of writing and rewriting -- revising.

Chief: Have you ever had a story born from a revision session? A new idea for something you cut?

Linda: Yes, often material that's cut from one ms. can be used in another article or story. You may find you have to eliminate a minor, but interesting character, for example. That interesting character could be used as the main character in another story.

Maudy: Is there any value in keeping copies of the various revisions you have made?

Linda: I always keep copies of each successive revision of a ms. I think this is a good idea because sometimes something I've taken out in an early revision may be something I'll want to put back in a later version. It may not have worked in that first draft, but may be perfect once I've done a good bit of rewriting in subsequent drafts. And, remember, you're not writing in stone. Anything and everything can be changed and improved.

MODERATOR: How many revisions of a manuscript should you do?

Linda: As many as it takes. That sounds flip, but seriously there is no hard rule about revising except this one from science fiction writer Nancy Kress: "The rule is simple: Good writer revise their manuscripts."

Kevin: How do you know when to stop revising?

Linda: Well, as I said earlier, sometimes you can go on and on revising and end up whittling away at your ms. to the point that there's no substance to it anymore. Getting feedback from your writer's group is useful. Also, I know one writer who has been revising this one story for something like 4 years. She's never submitted. She just keeps revising. Be careful of using too much revision as a safety net for not taking the risk of submitting.

MODERATOR: If an editor returns a ms. with suggestions for revision and indicates she'd like to see the revised version, should you drop everything to revise the ms. and fire it back to her ASAP?

Linda: Not necessarily. If it will be an extensive, involved revision, it's a good idea to send a note to the editor, thanking her for her comments and interest and giving her an estimated date of when you think you can complete the revision. But, give yourself a realistic amount of time. Doing a quickie job on the revision and then sending it back pronto may sound like a good way to keep you and your story at the top of the stack on the editor's desk. But it may actually give the impression that you didn't take the time to do a thoughtful and thorough revision.

MODERATOR: Do you have any tips for revising flat dialogue?

Linda: One good way to determine if your dialogue sounds realistic is to read into a tape recorder and play it back. You can immediately hear whether or not it rings true. It's also helpful to have someone else read your manuscript to you. If they stumble over sentences, that's often a clue that you need to rework that dialogue.

author2b: How important is the cover letter in getting your ms. read?

Linda: Editors say cover letters should be very brief. I've also heard a few editors say they actually read the first paragraph of the ms. *before* they read the cover letter. I guess it all comes back to the fact that your ms. has to speak for itself. A wonderfully written cover letter won't sell your ms. On the other hand, a poorly written cover letter can be a turn-off.

MODERATOR: Do you know of any books on the subject of revision?

Linda: Make Every Word Count by Gary Provost is a good one. So is Shut Up, He Explained by William Noble on revising dialogue. Edit Yourself by Bruce Ross-Larson is also a great help while revising.

pmjv: What kind of preparation in writing did you have at first? Classes? Advice or support group?

Linda: When I first started writing, I was living on the island of Borneo and I didn't know any other writers. I subscribed to Writer's Digest magazine and The Writer and learned from those magazines. Then I found out about the courses available through The Institute and that was my first writing course.

Pegasus8032: Should you send a note to the editor about the revision with the ms. or after the ms. has been sent?

Linda: If you plan to work on the revisions she's suggested, send the note after you receive the letter from the editor in which she comments about needed revisions.

MODERATOR: I hate to interrupt now, but I'm afraid our time with Linda is at an end. Thank you so much, Linda, for sharing your encouraging words and practical help with us tonight. Both revision and rejection are a part of every writer's life, and it's great to have a "pep talk" where they're both concerned!

Linda: Good night everyone. I've enjoyed being here!

MODERATOR: Do come back next week. We've been able to reschedule Patricia Hermes to talk about "Plotting for Publication." Patricia Hermes is the author of over thirty books for children and young adults, published by Harcourt Brace, Scholastic, Avon and others. Her new series for Scholastic for the year 2000 is called My America, and a new Avon middle grade book for next year is tentatively entitled Sweet By and By. What is the difference between a good idea that is merely an incident, and one that could develop into a publishable story? Come back next Thursday night and learn this from Patricia Hermes, an expert on plotting! Good night, everybody!

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