Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview with Brian Lies, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked Brian.

Jan: Welcome to tonight's chat "Promoting to the Max" with one of my very favorite writer/illustrator's Brian Lies...welcome Brian. It's always great to see you...even metaphorically.

Brian: Thanks, Jan.

Jan: So, last time we chatted a bit you were sewing a surprise for your next bat tour...how is that coming along?

Brian: Well, I was derailed by a few household crises. Microwave started smoking, and a vacuum found something left by the cat. So both had to be replaced or disassembled and fixed.

Jan: Oh my...the glamorous life of the bestselling author.

Brian: It's funny--it doesn't feel any different from life BEFORE the NYT list. The one thing which is different is a greater sense of confidence in the kind of books I've always wanted to do. I'm not as nervous about proposing something off-the-wall any more!

Jan: That's wonderful...so...considering anything off the wall these days?

Brian: Yes, but I go along with those people who don't like to talk about new ideas all that much. Ideas are so fragile. Just ask any third-grader whose neighbor looks at a drawing and says, "That's stupid!" Instantly, the idea doesn't seem so good anymore. But once a book proposal is accepted, I have more confidence, and can talk about it.

Jan: So...let's talk about a confidence builder: Right now, the audience can see the gorgeous cover of BATS ON THE BEACH in their chat room...how did you come to decide on sending bats on a beach picnic?

Brian: The idea for BATS AT THE BEACH came from my daughter seeing a frost pattern in a window when she was a second grader. "Look, Dad," she said. "It's a bat, with sea foam!" I thought it was pretty cool that a seven-year-old could see frost in that way. And then--it sounded like a great situation for a story. Of course, it took three YEARS to make it really happen...

Jan: Sounds like a good percolating amount for an idea.

Brian: Yes-- I'm suspicious of ideas which come TOO quickly!

Jan: So, once BATS was born...at what point did you decide to go gung-ho on promoting it?

Brian: We (my charming spouse and I) really decided to get behind the book when we started hearing unusual reports back from Houghton Mifflin. Editors seemed to really like it, and there were reports of "a strong sell-through with [their] sales force." We'd never really done promo for a book before, and this one sounded like one which was really worth the investment of time and money.

Jan: So, hearing that it was a book that COULD do really well, inspired you to help it along?

Brian: Absolutely. I wasn't really sold on doing intensive marketing for books which I hadn't both written and illustrated, because you're not QUITE as invested in them. And when you've got the inklings of confidence that a book is going to do well, it seems as though there are going to be more opportunities for promotion which others will embrace.

Jan: I understand you and your wife were a promotion team on this effort for BATS...was that kind of a first time involvement for her too?

Brian: Yes. My wife was a VP at a PR agency in Boston for many years, and had left to do freelance special events work. It seemed a natural for us to give working together a go. Could be dangerous to a marriage--but we discovered that we were good at delegating to each other's strengths. It's been both fun AND effective!

Brian: At first, my publisher seemed dubious about the things we were trying to do. We had a whole list of goals for the book and for our "Bat Tour," and we got a bit of an amused eye from them. They DID agree to do a poster for the book, which was a wonderful handout. And they always gave their moral support to us. But the Bat Tour last year was really of our making, and took a LOT of work! Once things started rolling and results began to come in, my publisher got behind us and offered to pay our mileage and our hotel bills, which was a GREAT help.

Jan: So, can you tell us some of the highlights of what you did? So far most of the questions popping up are asking you to share some details.

Brian: Some of the best highlights were getting the book reviewed by Daniel Pinkwater on NPR, having people honk at the BATSmobile while we were on the road, and beginning to get calls FROM booksellers, rather than pitching them for an event and getting a hesitant response. But I can go into details about how things came about, if that's interesting to anyone.

Jan: That's interesting to EVERYONE...trust me.

Brian: OK... The very FIRST thing we did was go to our favorite breakfast place with two pads of paper. We had a delicious breakfast meeting, and each of us wrote down a whole list of what we dreamed the book would do. The most important thing at this point is to NOT allow yourself to think "how?" on ANY of the things you write down. So, the list had things like "get on the NY Times list," "get reviewed in the Boston Globe," and so on. After the breakfast, where no "HOW?" had been allowed, we began to think about which things were really possible, and finally, what initial steps we could take to make the things happen. We started to think about all kinds of stuff-- what things were in the book we could use in book events, and as pitches to booksellers and newspapers. Or who we knew who might be able to pass the book along to somebody who could make something happen for us. Sometimes, these were shots in the dark--we didn't really know or expect what the result would be. But there's that cliche about putting out fishing lines--the more you've got, the greater the chances of something biting.

Jan: Sounds like you dreamed big...would you say you ended up seeing a lot of those fulfilled? Certainly the NYT was.

Brian: In fact, we ended up with a LOT of our hopes/goals fulfilled! One thing my wife taught me, which made a lot of sense, was that promotion is kind of like starting a campfire. You don't hold a lighter to a big log and expect results. You begin with the little stuff (local newspapers and freebie magazines), and parlay those into larger ones When larger newspapers see that you've had a small buzz in local periodicals, they begin to smell a story. We ended up with a great story in the Boston Globe as a result. And a reporter who took me to task for not having any bat-houses on our property! Although he forgave me later when I told him that we've got a very small colony in our attic (they don't come into the house), and I'm not taking steps to evict them... But the more small stories you collect, the more materials you have to send to bigger places, and the more interested bigger fish become.

Jan: So what was the focus of these stories...the BATSmobile? The book? You guys learning to fly like bats? ;-) I know it's not always easy to get the newsmedia to consider kid books newsworthy.

Brian: The BATSmobile was a big part of this story. I'd thought my wife was mad when she said she wanted to "wrap" our black Jeep with images from the book, but she felt it made the perfect backdrop for our book events. And it was true. At every bookstore, we had lots of people wandering in off the street because they'd seen the vehicle out front. We've all seen "wrapped" vehicles for tire companies, catering services, etc., but we haven't heard of it done for books before. But we also found that when people had a chance to see the book, they got onboard. I've never had a book before which people bought in multiples at book events. We've had a much higher number of threes, fours and even fives. So I think you've got to have a book which is worthy to be able to sell it well. I think you can sell ANYthing in America once-- but unless it's OK, you'll not be able to sell it again.

Jan: Once you started your big tour in the batsmobile...where all did you go? Mostly to booksellers? Schools? Unexpected places?

Brian: I do a fair number of school visits, but the BATSmobile mostly went to real book events. We tied in with indie booksellers from NJ to Maine, and put a lot of miles on the Jeep. We drove it down onto beaches, onto sidewalks in front of bookstores. But one of the great benefits was just having the thing driving around. In one trip from my home in MA to NJ, I ended up with 600 miles of highway where people were looking at the book, essentially. It was fun to see people's lips say "Bats at the beach?" with curious expressions.

Jan: So rolling advertising...sounds great.

Brian: It really did work. We had people asking about the book nearly every time we parked.

Brian: First, thanks! That's the best kind of review. No, I didn't read to any groups of kids. I DID show some of my sketchbooks with BATS sketches while I was doing school talks, but mostly, I relied on my own sense of what I'd have liked when I was younger.

Brian: When we put the tour together, we did everything ourselves. But halfway through the summer, my publisher generously offered to compensate us for mileage and hotels when we were too far from home to drive back after an event. That was a real help! I think it's important for everybody to think that he or she is going to have to do all of the promotion on your own.

Brian: We did a LOT of book signings over the summer. One thing we discovered about book signings was that it really ISN'T about selling hundreds of books--it really IS about meeting potential readers, and getting to know the independent booksellers. They're the folks who really know their stock, and who, if they like your book, will hand-sell it.

Jan: How did you set those up -- mailers to the booksellers? Phone calls? Crashing into the store with the BATSmobile?

Brian: We did some research online as to which booksellers were where, and where we hoped to go. It was nice to try to combine events so if we had to drive a distance, we'd have two consecutive days of events nearby. Then I or my wife made phone calls, proposing a book event with them. We'd tell them about the BATSmobile, send them a .jpg of it and of what we did during book events, and hoped they'd bite. At the beginning, it took some convincing. They'd never heard of the book before. But by mid/late June, we were getting some cold-calls from booksellers who were wondering if we were going to be in the area. And of course, when the book was reviewed on NPR, pitches got a WHOLE lot easier.

Brian: Last year, it was really hard to get work done while we were gearing up for the tour. We always had a new piece of collateral materal to make up--author photos, review clips, coloring pages, etc. But this year it should be easier, since we've done it once before. It had BETTER be easier! I've got a book deadline in the fall, and am going to HAVE to balance both this year!

Jan: So, now that you've been through this huge experience, is there anything that you decided -- wow, that wasn't worth what you put into it? Any ideas that really didn't work out well?

Brian: One thing we discovered is that you've really got to manage all of the details, and make things as "plug and play" for the bookseller as possible. Their job should be selling your book during an event--yours should be meeting people, reading the book, and signing. They seemed to appreciate that we didn't need nursing during the event. We also learned that there are venues where a book event just isn't going to work. Nudist colonies, for instance (no pockets for wallets, so no sales). You've got to think about whether something is a good match for your book. OK, I was kidding about the nudist colonies...

Jan: It made me smile though.

Brian: Well, the key, to me, is to figure out how to get your book seen by the people you want to see it. So it takes a lot of thinking up-front. Make sure you don't waste time with promotional efforts that aren't going to work. A pet store isn't a great venue for a book about an abandoned puppy, UNLESS they're doing their 15th annual PetFaire, and you know that it garners TV, newspaper coverage, and 1,500 attendees each year. So you've really got to look at your book with a cold eye, and think: how is this different from other books? How can I get it seen in a new way, so people can decide whether they like it or not themselves?

Brian: For the regular reviews, we relied on the publisher's normal channels. For NPR, we'd told our publisher that we'd love to see if we could get Scott Simon and Daniel Pinkwater to look at it, and it turned out that Mr. Pinkwater has published with my publisher! So they had his address! :-) I think that luck and timing have a hand in it though... turns out that Mr. Pinkwater has an affinity for bats...

Brian: The Jeep "wrap" was vinyl stickers, which were applied by a local graphics company. Huge digital files are created from the original illustrations, and printed out on wide rolls of vinyl. Then, just like a sticker, they're peeled, applied, and trimmed.

Brian: AND. . . they come off when you're done with them! I was a bit worried about what it'd do to the finish.

Brian: I do think that publishers have so many books on each new list that it's really impossible for them to get behind every book in a substantial way. That's too bad--but a reason why authors need to do whatever they can to help their books survive and blossom after publication. I'm not really interested in self-publishing, because it's a whole second career--distributor and marketer. I'm not good enough at that to think it'd work for me! But if you've got great business skills and endless energy, it might be possible. I have heard of self-pub success stories. I think that you can be successful at pretty much anything, if you try hard enough, learn enough about it in advance, and also have a fair bit of luck.

Jan: Not to mention self-publishing can be blisteringly expensive for picture books...on top of forcing you into a whole bunch of full time jobs at the same time....many times it's taken on by folks who really aren't ready for all those jobs.

Brian: That's true--I think self-pub is more likely to be successful with a chapter book, mid-grade or YA simply because the upfront costs wouldn't be as great...

Brian: Thanks, Dell- we're going to do a number of similar things. We're re-wrapping the Jeep this weekend, but I have an additional surprise which is going on top of it for book venues. . . and I'm not saying. . . we're doing activities at the events, but may add a few more. We have kids make edible 'bugmallows' (you'd have to know the book), and give them takeaway paper activities. One of the big differences is that we're going to all-different booksellers this year (at this point). We're going father afield, too--down as far as Delaware, and possibly into the midwest. We'll have to see how much time and energy we have. So in some ways, we're keeping the formula the same. But we're going to add to it wherever we can, and learn both from things that worked and those that didn't last year.

Jan: And your publisher is definitely on board this year, right?

Brian: Yes--I feel incredibly lucky with how supportive they've been. But that's another thing we learned--publishers DO get behind authors who are out there selling the book! So it's important to let them know how much you're doing for the book. You're all in it together.

Jan: Is there going to be a sequel to BATS -- could we see the BATS go somewhere else?

Brian: Well, yes... there IS going to be another bat book, tentatively scheduled for fall '08. But I'm hoping it's more of a stand-alone than a sequel. The book's called BAT NIGHT AT THE LIBRARY, in which the bats discover both the joy of reading AND the joy of messing around with the copier. . .

Jan: OH, I look forward to seeing Bats and copiers...and books. Librarians will love you.

Brian: It's really about my love of reading and of libraries. The library building I'm using as my model is a library I used to visit when I was a kid, at my grandparents' town in IL, so it's a very special place for me.

Jan: So, I know you're a dad. How did your daughter feel about the tours -- is there a part to play for her? A lot of us could be promoting with kids some day.

Brian: Yes, I have a sixth grader, and she works at the book events, at the bugmallow-table or helping kids with crafts. She's willing, but by the end of the summer she was sick of driving. However, around Christmas, she began recounting some of the places we'd gone, and some of the people we'd met. So I guess it wasn't ALL bad! :-)

Brian: I try to get around it. I know a lot of what blocks me, so I'm able to try different things. For instance, if I can't think of what a character might do in a certain room (a cafeteria?), I might write out a visual list of all of the things I "see" there. Soda machines, tables, ceiling tiles with little spitballs stuck to them. Chairs with gum and sticky smears underneath, etc. I might think of how the character would move through that room if nobody were there, then if a crowd were there. After a while, I start to really "feel" that room, and might be able to figure out what my character might do. You might also try a Nancy Werlin trick (thanks, Nancy--you gave this one at Whispering Pines): have your character write you a letter, whether about the issue at hand, or something completely different. Sometimes just feeling a character in a different setting can shake things up and loosen them. If desperate, go for a walk. Have chocolate. Work out. But ALWAYS come back to work. Some poet, whose name I can't get right now, was talking about daily writing and was asked, "But what if you get up and write garbage?" His answer: "I lower my standards." Seems to me, bad writing is better than NO writing, and leads to better writing.

Jan: Oh my...a man who recommends chocolate breaks for writer's block...would you like to be my little brother?

Brian: Only if you'll sell your Halloween candy to me.

Jan: Well...only the stuff that isn't chocolate.

Brian: I don't know. I liked Batman as a kid (though I wasn't allowed to watch it at one point because it made me jump up and down on the sofa yelling "Bam! Pow!" and the like.) My bats really ARE very different from Batman, but maybe that laid some groundwork. In all honesty, though, I think there is a surprising number of people who have an affinity for bats. Far more than I'd have imagined, given the number of personal bat-stories I've had people share. You'd be surprised how often people seem to find bats in patio umbrellas, for instance.

Jan: An now...many people are going to be nervous around patio umbrellas.

Brian: The book came out in May '06, and my wife and I were planning things in January. I don't think it's EVER too early to start thinking about things. Except BEFORE a book is published!

Brian: But a lot of things take time to gather. Web pages need to be made. Schedules need to be worked out. And the more time you give yourself, the more nimble your response is going to be when you get queries. An author photo? Sure--I'll send a .jpg in ten minutes. Press clippings? Sure--would you prefer paper copies, or PFDs?

Brian: Hmmm... that sounds more like a traditional product launch or advertising to me, and that's not something I know too much about. But anytime you differentiate your book or product from other things, get it in front of people and give them a reason to care about it, it can't hurt.

Jan: Okay, I wanna hear a story...so, Brian...you met a lot of people and went to a lot of places on your tour, can you tell us about an encounter that stood out Something...strange or funny or unique?

Brian: Wow... well, there was the big biker guy who was staring at me from the side in a hostile way... leather jacket, shaved head. . . and when I'd gotten done with a reading, he came up and said, in a really young voice, "This is cool! Can I look at the book!" Talk about not judging a book by its proverbial cover! But we ran into all kinds of people who opened up to us--people who'd just lost spouses to cancer, people who felt compelled to tell about their experiences with bats. People who wanted to tell us where the best local restaurants were. . . I think one unexpected event for me was when the bookstore's ceiling was too low for the huge beach umbrella we had. My wife gave me a look that said, "Don't say a thing," and we set up our tables, umbrella and the BATSmobile right out in the street, in a parking space. Cars were whizzing by two feet behind my head as I read. . . But the day turned from what we thought was going to be mediocre to a really fun day. We had people stop to see what was going on, and then MORE people stopped, or walked down the street, just to see why people were standing there.

Jan: I expect you get a lot of chances to think fast and adapt to the unexpected on something like that...did you find it helped that you weren't doing all this on your own? That you had your family with you?

Brian: Absolutely! I'd never have been able to do both readings and talk with people and ALSO handle the craft tables. If you don't have family willing to help out, try to get a friend who'll go along. If he/she's a writer, maybe you can help each other with events! It's also good to have a second pair of ears onhand--you overhear people talking about what you're doing, and can change what you do at the next event, if you think it's a valid comment (either positive or negative).

Jan: Oh, he does...and it's wonderful http://www.brianlies.com

Brian: Thanks, Jan-- I've got to update it in the next few weeks, though. I think that a website is the cheapest advertising I've EVER done, bar none. Teachers go to websites, as do students and editors. Teacher guides are also a good thing to work up--so that teachers can tie your book into their curriculum.

Jan: So, are you going to post the tour schedule for this year on your site when it's finalized...I know I need to know when you're going to be in Mystic...my wild child wants to go.

Brian: Er. . . as the keeper of our schedules, my wife knows when we're going to be in Mystic (CT). But I'll let you know! And I'll have a schedule for Bat Tour 2007 on the BATS AT THE BEACH website...

Jan: Good...y'all watch his site...so you can catch the bats tour nearest you. So, have you gotten a lot of BATS fan mail?

Brian: I've gotten far more e-mails about the book than ever before, and yes, I've had a few real letters. My favorite was from a woman who typed my name upside down (on a typewriter), then did the address right-side up.

Brian: The most productive was clearly having lots of materials already made up-front: author pics (both black-and-white and color) in several different sizes (all as .jpgs, though), the craft sheets we used at book events, some bugmallow-making instruction cards we could give out when opportunities arose...Having book blurbs on hand, as well as reviews in sendable form (Word docs we could cut and paste into e-mails, PDF's), images of the BATSmobile, etc. Anything we could think of. Again, my goal was a nimble response to any query we got. That way, if people were curious about a book event, we could have plenty of things in their hands or on their screens quickly, to convince them that a book event with us would not only be fun, but might also help them to have a really good day of book sales.

Jan: Now, you're the illustrator of bats...so you have a bit more access to graphical promotional material. [Cause you can make new stuff if you need to] For lowly writers...we can use the cover, I know, but what would you suggest we consider to make our presentations as snazzy as yours?

Brian: That's true. Writers (NOT lowly!) can use covers, but might also be able to come up with other things. I heard at a NY SCBWI conference once that an author (can't remember her name right now, sorry!) had made little cakes like the one her protagonist made, and sent those out with event proposals. If your book has someone who sends postcards, you might collect a lot of postcards and send a packet of those along with a pitch. Very Martha Stewart, but that kind of quirky thing can work. There are lots of buyable things which could tie in with your book thematically. You don't have to rely on homemade things.

Brian: Normally, we'll only have a half-dozen copies with us! But last year, there were several times when the publisher was running out of stock, and so we bought 80 copies of BATS from Amazon.com to carry with us, just in case the booksellers hadn't been able to get books. That WAS a good thing, because several times we did have to dip into our stock.

Jan: If that happens...how does the bookseller handle the sales -- buy from you and resell?

Brian: yes-- we sold them to the bookseller at our cost, just to make sure that people at the bookstore could go away with a copy.

Jan: So, is the publisher booking some of your readings and whatnot this year or is it still all you -- but with folks actually calling? Instead of you having to call them.

Brian: Yes, we've got some events which my publisher is setting up, but most of them so far are ones that we're creating. We have some bookstores we'd wanted to include last year and which we just couldn't get to and so we're going to them, since they were so nice about it! We've also gotten requests, and always try to honor those, if time allows.

Jan: So, are you looking forward to the tour this year...or feeling a little tired thinking about it too after knowing what it will be like?

Brian: I'm definitely looking forward to it. It's a lot of fun to talk with people, and see the bugmallows they come up with. And in some ways, it's kind of like a vacation! In some ways.

Jan: Okay...I have to stop asking questions...really I find all this stuff fascinating. Thank you again, Sir Brian...I do appreciate it -- you know I think you're tops. And I'll see what I can do about that Halloween candy.

Brian: Thanks, Jan! Thanks to everybody for the questions-- and remember: DON'T GET DISCOURAGED! Bite off small bites, and you'll get what you want to get done done! Promotion can be a lot of fun, and you don't have to either sell the farm to do it, or spend ALL of your time. The most important thing is to think about your book and figure out what makes it different. If you don't believe in it, nobody else will!

Jan: Good advice to the end...have a great BAT tour.

Brian: Thanks!

Jan: Good night everyone