Jan is Jan Fields, moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. While red signals our guest speaker's responses. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan: Welcome to the Writer's Retreat, Laura. We're all looking forward to what you have to share with us...we want to become better matchmakers! (Okay, really we want a genie who snatches our manuscripts in the night and turns them into contracts...but since we live sorta in the real world...) Thanks so much for letting us pick your brains here.

chippy: Yes, welcome Laura. I look forward to reading your answers. I'm sure this will be a fun and informative time.

LouiseA: I can hardly wait! As a children's librarian I looked up your books. We show 31 books on our library shelves, with you as an author! and I have questions!

Laura: Thanks, Jan and Chippy and Louise! I'm happy to be here and ready to start answering questions! I look forward to talking with all of you!

mmmgood: Many of us are very new to this, as you once were. You have obviously been very successful in "matchmaking." And the obvious question of the day is ... what are your tips for efficiently/effectively navigating the overwhelming number of publishers out there?

Laura: This IS the big question, isn't it? You know what? I STILL find it overwhelming—the research that’s required to learn your way around this industry. It’s still something I devote time to regularly. I wish I didn’t have to, but I do. And especially in this time of shrinking and merging publishers, it’s all the more important to keep on top of changes.

Laura: I teach an entire online class on researching publishers, but I’ll share the most basic techniques anyone can use to do this kind of research.

1) Analyze catalogs. Go to publishers’ websites and have them send you a catalog. Study the catalog and summarize the publisher’s personality. Look at the language they use to describe their books—this not only helps you figure out the personality but gives you clues about wording for your query or cover letter.

2) Subscribe to newsletters and blogs that have industry news. Either hard copy or e-newsletters can give you lots of info about what publishers and even specific editors are looking for. ICL, Children’s Writer, Children’s Book Insider, PW Children’s Bookshelf, SCBWI Bulletin, Alice Pope’s blog, Anastasia Suen’s Children’s Book Biz News blog, —these are all fabulous resources. There are tons more, too, but that’s MORE than enough to get started with!

3) Figure out how to save your info. If you have a great memory for who’s where and who’s looking for what, that’s great. If you’re like me, and it all feels impossible to keep track of, start a database of some kind. I keep a database in Microsoft Works, and I enter all the industry news from those sources in #2 into that database about once a month. Then, if I’m looking for a publisher who does, say, historical fiction, I do a search on that and find all the entries I’ve made over the years that show me who said what they do or don’t like as far as historical fiction. It gives me a starting place for creating my Publishers for This Work list that I make for each manuscript. Also, typing the stuff in helps me remember it on my own a tiny bit better.

4) Google. Research editors by doing Google searches. Type in [“Randi Rivers” Charlesbridge editor interview ] at Google, and you’ll find several articles/blogs, etc. This is a great, fast way to discover particular editors’ tastes.

5) Use Jacketflap.com or the advanced search function at Amazon to see what books a publisher has published in the past year or two. Stay current!

6) Read NEW books constantly as well as at least one review journal like Horn Book or School Library Journal. As you read, notice publisher names. Over time, this will help give you a big picture understanding of who’s publishing what and what each publisher is kind of known for.

Laura: I know this all sounds like a lot of work. And it is. But if you spend the time up front on research, you’ll spend less time (much less time, I think) waiting for rejections from publishers who really weren’t a great match anyway.

Laura: And as far as efficiency, I do it in blocks of time. I might wait until I have 4 or 5 newsletters to read and then read them all in one afternoon and enter info into my database. Or I might set aside one afternoon per week for market research. That could be researching publishers for one specific manuscript, or it could be reading catalogs and making notes, etc. My schedule changes depending on season, workload, etc. But here’s what doesn’t change. I think about 20% of a writer’s time could be effectively spent on marketing research. So if you have 5 hours per week to write, spend one hour on researching publishers. If you write full-time, allot one day per week toward market research. It’s a lot, but it pays off.

Laura: And try not to let this advice overwhelm you. I have a terrible memory and it's a puzzle figuring this stuff out. If I can sort of do it, you can, too! Just start small, with a couple of resources and a database of some kind. As it grows, you'll be able to assimilate more info into it, and you'll start noticing editor names that sound familiar and so on. That means you're learning the industry!

mmmgood: I think to myself that I need to write while I have the inspiration, and I can research any old time. But the research tends to stay on the back burner. Looks like I have a LOT of homework to do.

Laura: The thing I like about the ratio is that it's flexible. I know some writers who tend to write for a month straight, and then devote a week to marketing. It's all about what works for you. When I was first trying to get published, I kept putting off the marketing research as well. Eventually, I realized I had to find some time for trying to publish my writing! One thing I like about the marketing research is that it doesn't require quite as much intense focus (for me). So sometimes the market research gets done on the days the kids are around a little more, or when my day is broken up into tons of tiny chunks. Try a few different schedules, and I hope you find the right one that fits your life and your writing moods.

mmmgood: I'm drawing a blank (pardon the pun!), but do you illustrate your own work? One of my "fears" is that I have definite images in my head when I write, but I could never illustrate my own book. Some of what I write definitely would need to be illustrated in a specific way in order to get the point across. Is this fear unwarranted?

Laura: Oh my lord, no. See why here: http://www.laurasalas.com/pdfs/Other/QA.pdf

Laura: You can VERY BRIEFLY explain a situation in your cover letter or use illo notes [placed in brackets like this] in your text to show what would be happening. But you only do that if your manuscript actually wouldn't make sense without the note. You don't ever use that for things like [She wears a purple striped shirt and has a disgusted expression on her face.]

Laura: Editors and professional illustrators are extremely talented in seeing the potential in a ms. Of course, what they create might not match what you expected. A picture book is a true collaboration, and the author has little or no input into the choice of illustrator or the illustrations (unless something is factually a problem). You just have to kind of give yourself over to the process and cross your fingers!

Laura: I sometimes see pictures in my head or am looking at things in real life that I write poems about. And I like the way they look, so I wish an illustrator could match that. So...I don't mean to make it sound EASY to let go of wanting the illos to be a certain way. Just that if you're artistically challenged like me, you have to LEARN not to expect it to be like you pictured it. Easier said than done!

Laura: One thing to remember, too, is that in the best situations, an illustrator will do more than just bring your own words to life (or dress your baby ). Ideally, the illustrator adds an entirely NEW dimension to your work. In a picture book, that is the art form. It's not a story that's illustrated. Instead, it's words interpreted and expanded upon by a talented artist, who might add whole subplots just in the art alone!

LouisaA: I see that you have written several NF books, including a few biographies. My question is: Did you write the biography first? Or did your agent/editor ask you to write the biography?

Laura: Hi Louise, My biographies have all been on assignment from educational publishers, so I got the asst and then wrote the book. For trade biographies, though (the kind you'd buy at Barnes & Noble), it works differently. Generally, if you're a new author, you'd have to write the biography first and then try to sell it. If you're a well-known writer, you could probably get a contract based on a proposal, but that's fairly uncommon with children's nonfiction, unfortunately. Some publishers that do series, like Houghton Mifflin's Scientists in the Field, will read proposals. I believe (but don't hold me to this 100%) that Loree Griffin Burns sold her wonderful Tracking Trash book/biography based on an excellent, well-targeted proposal that showed she had studied the series and could deliver a great book. But it's much more common to have to write the entire bio and then shop it around to editors.

Gin: So...you've done your homework inside, outside, sideways, backwards and upside down; tailor made your story to fit somebody's theme. Some time later, a reject arrives and you wonder where should I ship this to next. Afterall, you just knew it'd be accepted at the first spot because you did your homework. Can you walk me through your process? (and you have to act like you don't already know WHO wants WHAT )

Laura: First, I love your optimism. Being a pessimist, I always assume my work will be rejected! So before I start submitting any piece, I create my marketing list for it. This is a list of all the publishers that I think my piece might work for, IN THE ORDER in which I plan to submit them. (This is a summary of one of the things I teach in the Matchmaking Your Manuscript online course I teach with Lisa Bullard.)

Laura: So, for instance, I have a new poetry collection picture book called Stampede! Poems to Celebrate the Wild Side of School. When I was trying to sell this to a publisher, I went through my publisher database (I talk about this in one of my other answers) and also through my Children’s Writers & Illustrator’s Market. I created a list of all the publishers I thought might be a good fit for Stampede.

Laura: That means I was looking for publishers who publish picture books and who don’t have a specialty that I didn’t fit, like they only publish books with a Jewish theme.

Laura: Then I made a chart that showed the payment (flat fee or advance/royalties or royalty only, etc.), what form they took (query vs. complete manuscript), how many picture books they put out, whether I had other manuscripts at that particular house at that time (because you don't want to send more than one manuscript at a time), and so on.

Laura: After putting my list together, then I decided what order, with the number-one fit at the top of the list and working down from there. Then I saw how many I could submit to. If my top 2-3 all accept multiple submissions, I would send to them all at once, notifying each that it's a multiple submission. (I did not have an agent at this point.) If my second choice requires exclusive submissions, then I might submit to my first and third choices at first, and then, if rejected by both of those, move on to the second choice exclusively, etc.

Laura: Here are my notes once I created my plan:

Possible markets for Stampede/Start with these 5

Laura: Now, Clarion (my publisher!) doesn’t even appear on that list. But looking at my submission records, I see that I submitted to Clarion 10th. But publishers 1-9 that I tried included the first 5 but nobody off that next list of 6 unprioritized ones and no educational markets. So, in the process of submitting Stampede, as I was getting rejections, I was also still researching publishers, talking with other writers, attending conferences, etc. So my submission plan would change and adapt as I got new information. I like to think of my submission plan as a flexible outline. It gives me a place to start, and it helps me get manuscripts back out there faster when I get a rejection. But it’s not set in stone, and it can easily change as I learn new info or make more connections with editors.

Laura: Also, my priorities might be different from other writers. Some writers prefer to approach small publishers, where each book gets a little more personal attention but the overall promotion efforts might be smaller. Others like the big-name publishers, even though that writer might be a tiny fish in a big, well-stocked pond. Each writer has to decide which things matter most to him or her and prioritize that list accordingly.

Laura: The most important thing is that I have a list (even though it might change), and I have an idea of why Stampede might be a good fit for each publisher. For instance, Holt sells a ton of books to schools and they do poetry. So poems about schools felt like a natural fit. And I had heard an editor from a different publishing house talk at a conference, and I felt Stampede might be a good fit for her sense of humor in particular. So making this list, for me, HAS to go hand in hand with all the research I do to try to stay on top of what’s going on in the industry and who I hear things about. I can’t create this list in a vacuum. When I was just starting to create these lists, since I didn't have a database, I did more online research via Googling editor's names, etc.

Laura: Hope that's helpful!

Gin: Oh wow...that's what I was afraid of....more time is spent on market research and charts and maps and lists and stuff then what it actually takes to write a decent story! YIKES!!!! Any advice for me? I LOVE the writing aspect and have endless ideas for entertainment....yet as soon as the market book touches my fingers all joy is gone, a bird flies over dumping something ooky on me, my head gets so heavy I can't hold it upright, gloom overwhelms me AND if that isn't enough....one page to the next all reads the same; in Japanese and well, I forgot to study that language! Oh, then when I find a list of three suitable markets, I go online and all three are NOT taking submissions currently! By then I am totally despondent! Is there anything you can offer to make me like or even be able to muster that horrible market book? I refuse mags by the way. Simply out of the question.

Laura: Oh, Gin, I know how you feel! And do I ever wish I had a fun, easy answer for you. I really do. The truth is that getting published and (even moreso) creating a career of writing takes a boatload of hard work and determination. Even WITH an agent, I have to do lots more market research than I ever thought I would. So I have no easy answers. However, I'll offer a few tidbits about the marketing side of things that may help or may send you over the edge. I'm not sure!

Laura: It does get easier with time. Truly.

Laura: For me, putting a specific time on it helps. I like the 20% rule. Now it happens more organically for me, but for many years, I literally put it on my writing calendar. I would block off one day per week or however it worked at that time and make a list of marketing tasks to try to get through.

Laura: Forming a crit group with other writers at the same stage as you and sharing the marketing duties can help. You could each research certain book or magazine publishers each month and share your info.

Laura: Fool yourself. Pretend you're doing this research to help your kid find the perfect college or your husband find the perfect job or whatever. Sometimes we're more willing to do hard work on behalf of others than we are on behalf of our own creative efforts.

Laura: Know that it's OK not to like it! But IF you want to be a professional writer (and it's perfectly fine if you prefer to write just for the personal satisfaction of it), you have to do it. That's the bottom line (as much as I hate to say it). So, none of those change the work you have to do, but they may or may not help you approach it with a little less hate? Sorry--wish I had a better, more magical answer!

claudette: Could you, perhaps, outline for us how you put together your marketing goals agenda? Do you write a piece with a specific goal in mind and then put together a marketing plan for it, or vice versa?

Laura: This is such a great question! And the answer will vary by writer, so this answer just applies to me. I’m not saying this is the way everyone should do it—just sharing my thoughts on it.

Laura: Many writers talk about writing “whatever you want to write and THEN worry about who to sell it to.” To me, that’s totally backward. That’s probably because I’ve spent a lot of time writing picture book manuscripts that turned out to really be short stories. Or books that were the length of a middle grade novel but had the voice of a chapter book (for a younger age range).

Laura: Now, I’m not saying you shouldn’t do any freewriting, brainstorming, etc. But before I dig into the hard work of actually writing a full manuscript, I need to know what it is. Is it an early reader? A chapter book? A picture book? A middle grade novel? A novel in verse? Once I know what I want it to be and, more importantly, what feels like the right age/length/tone for the piece—so what it needs to be, then I can get started. That knowledge helps me form the work. It gives me a framework to write within. I find that enormously helpful, both in the writing AND in the marketing of that piece to publishers.

Laura: The process of figuring out what form the piece will take often involves a ton of reading current books and choosing several that feel like the kind of books I want to write for this project. Not in topic or characters or anything, but in age of audience, sophistication of writing, length of manuscript, etc. Then I use those books as kind of mentor texts, studying their structure and thinking about how the writer accomplished what I hope to accomplish!

Laura: Now sometimes my plan changes midstream. I’ve been working on what I was sure was a poetry collection for the standard picture book age (4-8). But my critique group finally made me accept that the tone and humor of my collection was older than that. So, I had two choices. Make it younger, or aim directly at that 4th – 6th grade audience. I’m going for the older audience, although poetry for that age range is even harder to sell than preschool-grade 2 poetry. But that’s just where the collection is. I can’t figure out a way to make it younger without losing all its sparkle.

Laura: So, sometimes I’m wrong about what I’m writing. But if someone asked me, “What project are you working on?” I’d want to be able to identify the form (poetry collection), the audience age (4th-6th grade), and how long it will be (estimated 30-40 poems).

Laura: That’s my road map. Again, I might get lost along the way. Or I might take a side road and end up at an equally delightful but unplanned destination. But for me, I need that framework, that plan.

Laura: The same thing applies to magazine writing. If I sit down to write a short story, and I write a story with a preschool main character, but that story is 2,000 words long, NOBODY is going to publish that. So having a good grounding in what the appropriate lengths are for various ages is a helpful thing. It’s so ingrained that now if I sat down to write a short story for 1st-graders, say, I would know that 800 words was probably the very longest I’d get away with. And that informs my writing from the very first word, because it tells me how quickly I must get to the plot, the conflict.

Laura: When I used to write more magazine stories, I would write with one market in mind (like New Moon or Highlights or whatever). Of course, I would then have a list of other magazines it might work for, so that when one rejected it, I could move along to the next. But having one model to read and study a bunch of sample issues (and use the enormously helpful market guide at Kid Magazine Writers) of helped the story to flow out of me in a way that more closely fit that particular market.

Laura: Other writers will certainly disagree with what I said here, but this is how I feel about it!

CherylSec: Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. At writers' conferences I've attended, it seems that more and more publishers prefer to work with agents rather than direct submission of mss. from writers. Is this the case with the children's book market? I'm working on a middle grade children's fantasy. If this is so, how would one go about finding an agent willing to work with children's manuscripts? Thank you!

Laura: About half of trade publishers (the kind of publishers whose books appear in Barnes & Noble) still accept submissions from unagented writers. And many writers sell their books without an agent every year. So it’s definitely still possible to build a career as a children’s writer even if you don’t have an agent.

Laura: That said, I think it’s easier if you DO. But finding an agent can be just as hard as finding a publisher!

Laura: In another answer, I mentioned some of the resources I use to find information for my publishers’ database, where I store all my info about which editors acquire what kind of books, which types of books a publisher is looking for, what an editor said at a conference, etc. Those very same newsletters and blogs give info about agents, as well. And more and more agents speak at writer’s conferences, which is a great way to hear what her likes and dislikes are and get a feel for her personality and whether you’d work well together.

Laura: As far as researching agents, the Association of Authors' Representatives is a terrific resource. It's got lots of info as well as a searchable database of agents. Check out their FAQ for some basic info on how agents work.

Laura: Another good way to get an agent is to look for new ones. Using resources like newsletters, conferences, email lists, blogs, etc., (I mentioned a few good industry sources in another answer) keep your ears open for any new agents joining agencies. Sometimes they're former editors, other times they're new graduates of publishing programs, etc. New agents are looking to build their stable of writers and don't have to be *quite* as picky. They still have to love your work! They still have to think it's both outstanding and salable. But if you can submit to a new agent shortly after she sets up shop, you won't face quite as much competition.

Laura: One caveat: If an agent solicits you out of the blue, asking for your manuscript, it’s probably a scam. Real agents have more potential clients than they can handle. So if you get a letter from someone, please check them out at Predators and Editors: http://www.anotherealm.com/prededitors/

Jan: I wanted to add -- if you have the eensiest, weensiest concern about a publisher or agent who contacted you, PLEASE, feel free to email me jan.fields@forums.institutechildrenslit.com or post here on the board. If you're unsure of your own research skills about an agent or publisher who contacted you -- doubt first, ask questions, check with us...friends don't let friends get scammed. We'll help, I promise.

Laura: Great advice, Jan, and what a terrific resource for them. Sometimes writers are so excited that an agent "wants" them that they don't do the basic research.

Laura: There are some resources here to tell what to ask an agent who offers representation: http://thewritingrunner.wordpress.com/2008/10/31/step-five-questions-to-ask-an-offering-agent/

Laura: Ginger Clark and Nathan Bransford both rep children's writers, so this post is especially relevant: http://nathanbransford.blogspot.com/2007/10/guest-blog-ginger-clark-on-how-to.html

Laura: And here's a great post by Newbery-winner Neil Gaiman about agents: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2005/01/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about.asp

Laura: Besides finding agents, you do really have to make sure you've found the right agent for YOU! Talking with that agent and with other writers is the best way to do that.

yaya: When sending to an agent, do you send the whole manuscript, a querry letter or both? And is it ever reasonable to send a story 'concept' that is only partially finished?

Laura: It depends what the agent asks for. Each one has individual guidelines, like a publisher does. Typically, for picture books they want a complete manuscript. For novels, they generally want 1-3 chapters with a synopsis (summary) of the entire book.

Laura: Generally speaking, only writers with a long and/or successful publishing history can sell books based just on a concept.

Laura: However, I've known lots of writers who have submitted the first few chapters of unfinished novels to agents. Then when the agent asks to see the whole thing, they're written the rest of the novel with that motivation! It often takes months to hear back from an agent or editor (ahem, sometimes even years--yes, you read that right, and yes, occasionally even for published authors who are working with agents!), so sending out some packets before you're actually done with it makes pretty good sense, especially if you plan to continue working on it while you're waiting to hear back from people.

zebrakitchen: If an unagented writer submits to a publisher they can, of course, only submit to one at a time with the one manuscript. If they are rejected they obviously pick up the pieces and go elsewhere. But . . . if a writer is in the market for an agent they can submit to various ones at the same time, yes? and if so do you tell the agents you are shopping?

Laura: An unagented writer can submit to more than one publisher at a time, as long as none of the publishers state "exclusive submissions only." The only rule is to tell each publisher you're subbing it elsewhere, too. I say something like,

Laura: "I am also sending this manuscript to two other publishers." That way they know they don't have dibs, but they know you're not sending it to 80 publishers at once, blanketing New York with your manuscript:>)

Laura: And same deal with agents. Some agents require exclusive submissions. Most don't. Read their submission guidelines (usually available on their website) to see. And even if an agent requires exclusive SUBMISSIONS (actual manuscripts), you can still query more than one at a time by writing a letter, introducing yourself, pitching a specific manuscript, and asking if the agent would like to read the manuscript. Yes, always be up-front with your intentions. Most writers multiply submit, and that's fine. Just be professional so an agent or editor knows where she stands, that's all.

LouisaA: When writing NF, do you start with a publisher in mind? Or do you submit to one/many after you have written the book/article?

Yaya: And do you make multiple submissions, if you target more than one publisher?

Laura: First, see the questions title "homework" and "outlining marketing goals." The answers I gave on those apply to your question, too. I don't necessarily start out with ONE specific publisher in mind, but I know the kind of manuscript I want to create and whose lists (the books a publisher puts out) it would fit well on. The only time I would write a trade (the kind of book sold in Barnes & Noble and Borders) nonfiction book with one specific publisher in mind is if I was writing it to fit a particular series, like Houghton Mifflin's Scientists in the Field series. But then if it's rejected by first choice, I would certainly reshape it as necessary to submit to other publishers! If publishers don't say "exclusive submissions only," then I definitely multiply submit, usually 2-3 at a time. I always tell them in my cover letter!

Sheri: Whenever a new book of picture book poetry appears at our library, I look it over and then if I really like the work, I reserach the author and the publisher. I'll use this example - last year I felll in love with Deborah Ruddell's "Today at the Bluebird Cafe: A Branchful of Birds." I then found her web site and discovered that this was her first published book (I think I'm right about that - I know she has a new one out as of March as well.). Then I looked at the publisher's web site "Simon & Schuster" and their manuscript guidelines say that authors need to be represented by an agent as they do not accept unsolicited manuscripts. Is an agent an author's only hope when the guidelines are worded this way?

Laura: Good question, Sheri (and I love that book, too--though it took me several readings some months apart to fall in love with it--isn't that strange?).

Laura: Different publishers are more strict about "agented only" than others. Sometimes, if you research a SPECIFIC editor and send her a query letter describing your project, she'll ask to see it. Or if you hear an editor at a conference, she's almost always open to receiving manuscripts from conference attendees.

Laura: So my advice would be, if you feel like S&S is a good fit for you, is to do some online research using your writing groups, Googling Simon & Shuster editor, looking at SCBWI Conference speaker schedules, visiting Jacketflap.com, etc., and round up several editors' names. Then do more Google searching. Search for "editor name" editor interview. Read any interviews you find and then see who you think is the best fit for your ms. Or if anyone mentions being open to submissions. (Sometimes individual editors, particularly editors new to a publishing house, have their own submission guidelines. They might welcome submissions as they try to build up their list, and then switch to the general "agented only" of the publishing house.) Then send a brief query letter saying who you are, how much you enjoyed Ruddell's book, etc. Explain why you think S&S is a good fit for your ms, and ask if she would be interested in seeing it. Include an SASE and send it off. What do you have to lose? Time, of course. I do realize that. But if you do fall in love with a "closed house," I think it's worth it to try a back door. Just don't bother sending off to the Acquisitions Editor or whatever. That'll never get through!

LongShadows: I am currently researching a nonfiction (history, not biography) book, for the trade market, grades 4-6. I've been working with the intention to do enough research to get the overview and an outline, write a proposal with sample chapters, shop that to publishers, then do more in depth research after I have a contract to add the details and color to my writing. I should add that I have no chidlren's nonfiction books published. I have published nonfiction and fiction in children's magazines and an adult nonfiction book in a different, specialized field relating to my former career.

I'm surprised, confused, and a bit discouraged after reading your replies to several questions where you say a nonfiction book needs to be completely written before approaching a publisher. I've read in several places about sending proposals for nonfiction, not the entire finished manuscript, to allow the publisher to provide input into shaping the book. Most recently I read in James Cross Giblin's book, The Giblin Guide ot Writing Children's Books (2005 edition), in his chapter "Nonfiction Goes to the Ball": "Should you research and write the entire manuscript before approaching a publisher, or should you query first to find out if an editor is interested in your idea? If you're a beginner, a combination of the two would probably be the best course to take. You should do enough research to make sure there's sufficient material for a book. Then you'll need to write a full outline and draft one or two sample chapters to show how you intend to treat the subject. After that, you can send query letters to publishers and ask if they'd like to see your outline and chapters."

So now I'm confused. Manuscript or query then proposal?

Part of my concern about how to proceed is the lack of credibility I feel I have without a contract. I've begun having some interviews as part of my research, and my contacts have asked, "Do you have a contract?" They do answer my questions even though I say "no" but I'm concerned that when I need to get into research libraries and approach people who are less open and trusting it may get harder.

The other part of my concern is putting in the incredible amount of effort to write a book and then having to redo part of that work if the publisher sees the book structured in a different way. I'm not afraid of work, but wasted work I'd like to avoid! Thanks for the great answers you are providing here for all of us.

Laura: This is a topic that has been discussed in the past on the NFforKids list (a terrific Yahoo group for kids' nf writers), and when I did a talk on proposals at the national SCBWI conference a few years ago, I looked around for people who had sold kids' nf books based on proposals. I found very few. Surprisingly few.

Laura: That's not to say it doesn't happen. For my book Taking the Plunge: A Teen's Guide to Independence, I sold it to the Child Welfare League of America based on a proposal and sample chapter. Loree Griffin Burns, I believe, sold Tracking Trash to HMH as part of their Scientists in the Field series based on a great proposal. So it definitely can happen.

Laura: But the norm, for new writers, unfortunately seems to be that editors want to see the entire ms to make sure the writer can really deliver. Having said that, if I were writing a trade nf book (all my educational publisher ones are written on asst.), I personally would not write the book unless it was a book I knew I HAD to write. I would again do the proposal and try my luck and if I didn't sell it, I wouldn't write it. But I would certainly close myself out of some markets that way, the ones who would only consider complete mss.

Laura: Also, biographies do create a special challenge for exactly the reason you said--especially with still-living subjects. The interviewees want you to have a contract; the publisher wants you to have the interviews. It's a Catch-22. I'm all for avoiding wasted work. Working efficiently is one of my biggest goals and the only way I can make a semi-career out of writing-related work.

Laura: My advice would be to explain to your interviewees that a publisher won't give you a contract until you have guaranteed access to good resources. See if they're even willing to sign a letter saying they're happy to be a resource for you, etc. Try to impinge upon their time as little as you can to still create a dynamite proposal. Then submit the proposal before proceeding with anymore writing.

Laura: Or you could twist that a bit and query a publisher with a terrific letter (listing the people you plan to approach as sources). Get a reply from them that they're interested in seeing a complete proposal. Then use that proposal to garner cooperation with sources. It's a bit of a dance trying to work all that out, and I don't envy writers who must do a lot of it because it's not my thing!

Laura: I too thought most nf books could be sold on proposal, but that isn't what I found when I surveyed writers (that didn't have a huge publishing history). But it could be that my sample just wasn't far-flung enough. I would definitely try to get the contract with as little work up-front as possible Just know that more and more pubs seem to be leaning toward full ms only. Sigh. Good luck with your project!

LongShadows: Thank you, Laura. You've offered me a possible way through the thicket! Parallel paths of researching and seeking a publisher may be the best option. And yes, this is a book I HAVE to write. It's been haunting me for over 10 years. Fortunately there's a wealth of resources for research, and it's a subject that should be of great interest to kids, teachers, librarians as an additional resource for a commonly taught topic.

claudette: I have a pc I'm working on which is done in sestina form. It'll be book length when finished. I would like to use photos to illustrate each stanza, allowing each stanza to have it's own page. Would a publisher go for this type of book for MG reading? And if so, how do I approach that publisher with a query?

Laura: If you’re saying it will be book length, then I’m assuming this is more than one complete sestina?

Laura: First, the bad news. Poetry books of any kind—for the middle grade reader are pretty rare. Photo-illustrated poetry books for this age are even more rare. Joyce Sidman’s The World According to Dog is about the only one I can think of. Buried Alive, by Ralph Fletcher, is another, though aimed older than middle grade. On top of that, the sestina is a challenging form for readers. It’s long and incursive, since the repeated end words often draw the poem back in on itself rather than pushing it forward. So 4th-6th graders wouldn’t not likely have exposure to this form already, and publishers would likely worry about how accessible the form is.

Laura: Now, the good news. Doing something new and unexpected CAN lead to groundbreaking, genre-breaking success. Look at Brian Selznick’s Invention of Hugo Cabret. Totally new. Totally successful. So if you can pull this off, you’ll have novelty on your side. When Marilyn Nelson did the crown sonnet Carver: A Life in Poems, she found great critical response.

Laura: My advice on a query letter is to tell the editor who you are, why you chose that publisher and editor, and why this book HAS to be told in sestina form. That’s going to be their first question, I think. Then I’d send one sestina (preferably the opening one) and ask if they’d like to see the entire project.

Laura: As you continue to work on your project, though, I’d urge you to ask yourself if this HAS to be for a middle grade audience. If it doesn’t, I’d move it to older. If it does, I’d put lots of effort into making sure the poems are really accessible. Visit schools, read to 4th graders, and ask them to explain the poem back to you. Are they following it? Maybe you're already doing all this, and if so, excellent! I think this would be an incredibly difficult project to do successfully. BUT sometimes those projects end up being the most fun of all! I wish you lots of success with this. It sounds like a fascinating project!

Yaya: Where have I been living that I've missed out on the knowledge that "Humpty Dumpty" poetry is NOT the only peotry running the world? I really must get out, more.

Laura: Lol! There's a whole strange, wonderful world of poetry out there, Yaya. Check it out! You can see a list of some of my favorite poets I recommended a year or two ago here: http://www.laurasalas.com/poetry/Poetry_Resources.pdf

claudette: The reason I chose this form of sestina is two-fold. I'd just discovered it and I needed something that was lengthy for the subject matter. The subject is a overview of the planet's geography, natural history, cultural diversity, etc. in long sweeping flight above the surface of the world. Amibitious? Oh, yeah. I didn't know how much so until I was two thirds the way in, but now it's something I just have to finish.

Laura: Claudette--Wow, this sounds like it could be breathtakingly beautiful and enormous in scope. And your passion shines through--that's always a huge ingredient of something that makes an impact. Keep up your courage! Use the knowledge that this is something different to help you keep the perseverance of submitting to many, many publishers if that's what it takes. And for something like this, going for some of those publishers that sell a lot to the school market might be a really good approach (I mentioned some of those in another answer...).

Carmen: How or where can I find poetry market for multicultural poetry- specifically for the Caribbean audience?

Laura: There are so few poetry markets, period, that this is hard to say. Lee and Low is a multicultural publisher, so that would be one I’d check out right away: http://www.leeandlow.com/

Laura: Of course, poetry about a specific culture can be done by a mainstream publisher, too. So you could try all the mainstream children’s publishers that do poetry, like Wordsong Press. Also, I looked up Caribbean poetry on Amazon and got this: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=caribbean+poetry

Laura: If I were interested in this market, I’d find as many of these books as I could and study them. If they’re adult publishers, do they do children’s poetry as well? If they’re anthologies, are there names of magazines and journals in which the poems first appeared?

Laura: Also, Google “Caribbean publishers.” Then check out all the results. If you really want to reach a Caribbean *audience,* then a Caribbean publisher is your best bet. One that was at the top of the list was Macmillan Caribbean: http://www.macmillan-caribbean.com/home/Home.aspx. But you should go through the results and check them all out.

Carmen: Is it valid to write poems for publication that follow standarized poetry form i.e. haikus, cinquains, bio-poems, personification poems? You see in my course of Children's Literature we have a section of writing poetry for children. I give them a workshop using these standarized poems and we all write poems.

Laura: Yes! Books that they think will sell a lot to schools (like my poetry books for Capstone Press) sometimes actually label what kind of poems they are. But plenty of trade poetry books (books sold mainly through standard bookstores) also contain these forms. They might not be labeled that way, but teachers love to use them as samples for their classrooms. Poetic forms are definitely alive and well in children’s poetry!

Yaya: May I jump in to ask what some of these poems are?

Laura: Yaya, You can find explanations on my site for many of them. I do a column every month or two called Poetic Pursuits, and I've focused on quite a few forms over the past couple of years. http://www.laurasalas.com/poetry/poetic%20pursuits/poetpurs.html

Laura: They're kind of scattered throughout 2007, 2008, and 2009, so check out all three pages. If there's a form you're curious about that you don't see there, give me a holler!

Laura: And of course poems don't have to follow any of these forms. Free verse is exactly that--free. Words on paper, condensed into poetry, in whatever order and arrangement you want them to be in. I love writing free verse, rhyming poetry, and in forms (some of which rhyme and some of which don't). So far, publishing-wise, I've had the most luck with rhyming poetry. But you have to write poetry because you love it--there certainly aren't many opportunities to publish it!

mmmgood: Some of the verses in my rhyming picture book are by far the most complicated in this particular poem. Is the wording too difficult for the picture book crowd? What length of illustrated poetry is considered marketable? I’ve noticed magazines limit poetry to approximately 20 lines. But what about books?

Laura: Poetry is a hard, hard sell in the children’s publishing marketplace, sadly. So, I’m thrilled to have published some poetry books and to have more forthcoming. But the competition is incredibly tough, both in books and magazines, so don’t get discouraged. To answer your questions…

Laura: 1. The picture book crowd is generally thought of as 4- to 8-year-olds, and often even younger than that. But, for kids in the preschool end of this range, an adult would be reading the book to them, so you don’t have to worry about the vocabulary as much. And the illustrations would help kids understand the stanza, as well.

Laura: What I do notice about your excerpt, though, is that your pun about helping them unwind is fairly adult. In my school visits, I often ask the kids research questions: "Do you know what e-Bay is?" "If I said, 'My mom would have a cow,' would you know what that meant?" And I look at the reactions of different age kids.

Laura: From this tiny excerpt, the feeling I get is that the humor in your poem might be more suited for upper elementary kids, but the form is meant for lower elementary. That’s a constant thing I struggle with. I adore the form of the picture book, but my humor and tone naturally gravitate toward about 5th-6th grade. So finding the projects I can do and enjoy that work both for me AND for the intended audience…well, it’s a constant struggle! So the basic answer is, No, I don’t think your wording is too hard. But you might want to look at the puns you use and make sure they’re really accessible to 1st-graders.

Laura: 2. Picture book poetry collections for 4-8 usually contain from 14 to 25 poems. A rhyming picture book that is NOT a collection of individual poems is usually less than 300 words. Of course there are exceptions. 428 words is fairly long. But IF your rhyming story has a compelling storyline—a beginning, a strong conflict, and a resolution—then 428 words might work just fine. If it’s more of a descriptive, humorous poem about the zoo, but without a linear story, I think you’d increase your odds of publication by cutting it down to 2-300 words. Check out the word counts of other books that are rhyming stories and see where yours fits in. You can use Renaissance Learning at http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp to check word counts. Here are a few examples:

Laura: Editors generally feel shorter is better. So you want your rhyming story to be as short as possible while still including all your best bits! Every line should feel so packed full that you couldn’t possibly fit in any more information or wonderful language or plot. We’re getting ready to discuss that aspect of rhyming poetry in my online poetry workshop, in fact. It’s something I must consciously work on constantly!

mmmgood: I have honestly felt that it should be fine to throw in some "older" humor, as long as I make the story engaging and fun, and the book is loaded with excellent illustrations. (In a sense, it would be along the lines of the very adult humor in cartoons such as Bugs Bunny). Does that thought have any merit in the world of publication?

Laura: Hi Marie, OK, that is a fabulous point about throwing in some older humor. When you have a book that works on many levels, that is awesome (for instance, have you read Frankenstein Makes a Sandwich?). BUT, the reader who is your primary audience has to get it all at a lower level, too. In other words, that older humor has to be a layer on TOP of that whole poetry project. So the primary audience of 1st graders or whatever has to feel like they're getting everything, and they are. They might get it literally, while the older group gets the pun. But the first grader can't feel like he or she is left out of every third stanza or something like that.

Laura: So, yes, offering something for older readers (or for the parent or teacher reading the book out loud) can definitely be a great bonus in your project. Does that make sense? And I'm not saying your project IS leaving the 1st graders behind, of course It was just a possibility I wanted to make you aware of so that you could analyze your work and think about that.

kidztales: I have a question about talking animal stories. When I'm marketing, it looks like these stories for magazines are slowly making a come back. I hope I'm right! I have two questions: are they coming back & who can we submit them to?

Laura: First, I should say that I haven't really written magazine stories in quite a few years, so I haven't studied this market carefully, recently. But this has been a perennial question: "Editors say they don't want talking animal stories, but then they publish tons of talking animal stories--help!"

Laura: While talking animal stories might be more or less popular in any given decade, they are always around. The hard truth is that editors SAY they don't want them because 99% of the ones they get are not publishable quality. New writers tend to gravitate toward talking animals, and perhaps they're sending in stories that aren't really ready yet? I'm not knocking new writers--I love new writers! But I do remember from my ICL teaching days that I was OVERRUN with talking animal stories. So I'm guessing editors are, too.

Laura: It's the same thing with rhyming picture books. They say they don't want them because most of the ones they get are pretty poor. In fact, in my notes, I have this 2006 quote from Joy Neaves, then a Front Street editor: "I reject 99.99% of the talking animal and rhyming stories that I receive." OK, enough harshness. Here are three good resources regarding talking animal stories:

http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/rx/wt02/tkganimals.shtml(by our very own Jan Fields!)

http://www.writing-world.com/foster/foster05.shtml

http://www.fictionfactor.com/children/animals.html

Laura: Many children's mags that do fiction do talking animals. Exceptions tend to be magazines that teach kids about nature. For instance, I think Ranger Rick doesn't do any talking animal stuff. The best thing to do to find markets is to go to your local bookstore and sit down with a stack of current children's mags. Check out each short story and see if it features talking animals or not. Make note of which mags use these kinds of stories. Market guides like Children's Writer's and Illustrator's Market, Jacketflap.com, and others also carry this info.

Laura: And KidMagWriters.com has an excellent market guide where Jan analyzes issues of magazines. With a quick search on "talking animals," I found entries saying Highlights and Spider use them, Pockets does not. And that was just the first few results. So, there's definitely still a market for talking animal stories. It just has to be a really good story with a new twist, something to make it stand out from the other hundreds of talking animal stories an animal sees. So, start polishing those stories and finding your markets!

LouiseA: I have heard over and over NO TALKING ANIMALS, but as a Children's Librarian, I prefer talking animal stories to 'people' stories. Here's why.... they aren't race related. When I do story-time I have to be sensitive to this issue. I have some parents who won't check out or read 90% of our books, because they don't 'match' thier child. So they check out the same books over and over. So.... as a CL, and a writer, I have to say, if I can keep a child's picture out of the book, I do it. The story is the same no matter whether or not it's a person or an animal.

Laura: Great point about animals sidestepping the race issue, Louise. And probably yet another reason they're so popular. Sometimes the text actually depends on the character being a certain kind of animal, because the character needs those animal characteristics. I have a ms (unpublished) where the character has to be a sheep, and the ms is full of sheep puns. Other times, the character is undetermined, and the illustrator decides. My friend Susan Taylor Brown has a pb called Oliver's Must Do List, and she wrote it as a little boy, but illustrator made him a rhino!

claudette: I've completed an ER Chapter Book with the MC as a Jack Rabbit. He doesn't talk, though. I merely show his adventures and experiences. Is that a decent way to sidestep the issue of talking?

Laura: This is definitely another way to go. There are so many variations of how we portray animals. In talking animal books/stories, they're really just stand-ins for human kids. But they're "kids" who have more independence and bigger adventures than human kids can safely have.

Laura: Then there are books with animal characters that go into the minds of animals, though they don't actually speak. These are still fiction, because of course we don't know what animals are thinking. But these usually have the animals acting more like true animals, not just human substitutes.

Laura: There there are nonfiction books with animals as main characters. They rely on realistic action and drama, but don't portray thoughts OR speech for the animals.Any of these can work superbly if handled with skill and imagination. If you're trying to sidestep talking because you feel it's got a bias against it in the industry, just know that if your jack rabbit's thoughts are shown, that would be basically the same thing. I don't know if his thoughts are shown or not--just throwing that out there for you to think about!

Sheri: Was your first poetry sale with a children's magazine, or with a publisher? (Did you have poetry clips to show your publisher when presenting your first collection of poems?)

Laura: My first poem sale...well, I sold an action poem (you know, the kind where a kid raises her arms during one line, makes rain motions with the next, etc.) to Turtle along with a short story. That was back in 1999. I wasn't really writing poetry at that point.

Laura: Fast forward as years go by and I fell in love with poetry and wrote it more and more! My first actual poetry sale was to Guideposts for Kids, a now-defunct website/e-magazine from the Guideposts folks, in 2004. It wasn't a religious poem, btw. Over the next couple of years, I won or got recognition in several writing/poetry contests, all with poetry entries, which totally boosted my self-confidence and helped me keep submitting.

Laura: In 2006, I got the offer from Clarion for Stampede!, my first poetry book. That news led to the offer from Capstone Press (an ed pub I'd written plenty of nonfiction for) to write a poetry series from them. Over the past several years, I've had a couple of poems accepted by magazines but not pubbed yet (the mag market is about as competitive as the book market). And Clarion has bought another collection. So I'm thrilled about that.

Laura: But I sure would like to sell a couple more book mss. I haven't sold a book in more than a year and a half. And for my next book with Clarion, they haven't even chosen an illustrator yet, so it will be at LEAST two years from now, if not more, before it comes out. Sigh. It's a hard business!

SarahM: I believe that I am being appropriately selective when I send out a manuscript to an editor. Yet, I am still receiving form rejections. I would at least like to get personalized rejections and/or comments. My grammar is good, and I have some writing credentials (no books...). Do you have suggestions as to how I can approach editors by query and/or "reach them" once I have identified "good fits"?

Laura: Hi Sarah—Oh boy, this is a tough one. First, know that personalized rejections are rare since editors have so little time. And whether they write a personal note depends on many other things IN ADDITION TO the quality of your manuscript. That said, of course you’re smart to want to be progressing to the next level, which is getting those personal rejections.

Laura: Besides researching the best markets for your manuscripts, which it sounds like you’re already doing, one thing you can do that might help invite a personal rejection (or, better yet, an acceptance!) is to share with the editor WHY you’re submitting this particular manuscript to her. Editors vary in their likes and dislikes, of course. But I’ve heard many editors speak about appreciating writers who do their homework in researching editors. So since you’re already doing that research, share it with the editor.

Laura: Maybe you heard the editor speak at a conference or read an online interview with her. Mention that. Then briefly share why you have chosen to send the piece to her. Is it similar in tone and depth to other recent things they’ve published? If so, mention the specific books or stories or articles you feel yours is somewhat similar to. Does the editor work in a particular way or process that you admire? Tell her. Do you know she loves dogs, and your story is about a dog? Say so!

Laura: Doing one or more of these accomplishes two things. 1) Shows the research you’ve done 2) Possibly creates a slight connection with the editor Those two things might make it more likely that the editor would respond in kind, sharing a little more personal information about what she did like or why the manuscript didn’t work for her.

Laura: But most importantly, persevere. I got plenty of unsigned, anonymous form rejections (certainly more than 100, maybe more than 200) before I started getting personal rejections. Stick with it, and you WILL make progress!

LouiseA: You mentioned that your first contract was NonFiction and that they contacted you. BUT what was the process? What were the steps you took for your first contract?

Laura: Mine was with educational publishers, who assign writers to write books for their series. I put together introductory packets with a cover letter, resume, writing samples, etc. And I met two editors at a local SCBWI conference. I sent packets to both editors and ended up writing books for both. Today, educational writing is sort of my day job, providing me with a semi-steady income (not a big income, certainly, but not bad for writing!). I'm going to put in my tip sheet that will give you some of the basics. I made this for a non-local SCBWI conference where someone emailed me and asked me for beginning tips for a panel they were doing, and they wanted to cover ed wtg. Hope you find it useful!

Laura Purdie Salas – Online Writing Courses -- http://www.laurasalas.com

Laura: The kind of biographies you see on bookstore shelves are generally written first, and then sold. But for those ed pubs, you never write it first (because they will tell you how to write it so it matches the entire series!). I usually write in sets of books. I might write 3-6 books (for K-2, for instance) in one season, all for the same series. People writing for jr high or hi school don't typically take on more than one or two titles at a time, because that would be insane!

Gin: I seem to be trapped in a love for 7-9 age range averaging about 1200WC stories. I aim for the easy reader chapter book market but have no success in getting published. Is there something else I need to be doing with these?

Laura: Easy readers and chapter books (two very different forms) are tough to break into. Books of the 1200 word count variety TEND to be aimed a bit younger than 7-9. More around the 5-7 range. That’s a generalization, of course. But it makes me wonder if your length, your form, and your audience age all mesh up. That’s quite a trick, and it’s one I struggle with, too, as I mentioned in another answer to someone else.

Laura: 2nd-4th grade kids, which is the 7-9 age range you mentioned, are mostly reading books quite a bit longer than 1200 words.
Junie B. Jones 6-7,000 words
Magic Tree House series 6-7,000

Laura: And from these types of books, 8- and 9-year-old kids move on to true middle-grade novels, which are much longer. So books of only 1200 words would skew younger, to kids still learning how to read. Books at the upper end of various learning-to-read-type series might have this word count.

Laura: For instance, here are a couple of Level 3 books in HarperCollins’ I Can Read series:
At Home in a New Land: 1881 words
Chang’s Paper Pony: 1279 words

Laura: So you might be able to hit 7-year-olds in the word count range you’re working on, but perhaps not any older than that. So you might have to decide: Do you want to write longer books for the 7-9 age range, or do you want to make your current manuscripts appealing and appropriate for the younger age range of 5-7? It’s a tough choice, I know!

Laura: My best piece of advice here is to visit your local bookstore and settle in for a night of reading. Find 5 books (not all from the same series, if possible) to use as examples. Find 5 books that are the voice and style you love and hope to write for. Then go home and do some online research to determine exactly what age range they are targeting and what their word counts are. Then look at one of your own storylines and figure out if you can write a manuscript for that storyline, modeling it after the length and structure of one of your model books. (I would buy one or two of the five books you choose so that you can take them home, study them, mark them up, etc.)

Laura: By paying close attention to what age ranges and at what word counts various publishers are making books for young kids, you’ll have a better chance of shaping your own manuscript into a form that works in today’s marketplace.

Gin: What is your take on the reluctant reader books? Is there a certain age group I need to aim for? Maybe a certain word count to aim for? I seem to write entertaining stories that really don't have an overall theme. Maybe that's the problem! Thank you for giving your time and advice. I will be studying these answers for a year because you are very in-depth!

Laura: I know it can be so discouraging when you find that what you thought you were writing isn't really what it's the right length for. I'm well-acquainted with that feeling. Books for reluctant readers sometimes are indeed often fewer words. These books tend to be very high-action and fast-paced. They aim to get readers so engrossed in the book they forget they don't like to read! Other times, reluctant reader is just used to i.d. a book that is really high-interest, esp. to boys.

Laura: But...reluctant reader books aren't usually labeled that way. Because then they would be embarrassing for kids to carry around at school, adding to the reluctance! So it can be hard to study these. Basically, reluctant readers mostly identify the audience of the book, not the way the book was written. The exception is that educational publishers, who sell primarily to school libraries, sometimes label their lines as "great for reluctant readers" and they also do hi/lo books, which are books, for instance, that are of interest to say a 4th-grader but are written on a 1st-grade reading level. This is such a maze, and that's why I recommend that exercise of finding 5 books that are the same audience/length/level that you envision your book being. Then you can use them as "mentor texts."

zebrakitchen: You said, "Find 5 books that are the voice and style you love and hope to write for. Then go home and do some online research to determine exactly what age range they are targeting and what their word counts are." What are you researching, the publisher of the books?

Laura: Hi Lynn, Well, I note the publisher, definitely. But I also look up the word count (you can do that here: http://www.renlearn.com/store/quiz_home.asp), the number of chapters, the age of the main characters, etc. I look up descriptions and reviews of the book (easily found on Amazon and with Google searches) to see how the review journals describe them. If a book is described as an easy reader, then I search amazon for more easy readers. I look for other books published by the same publisher for the same age range. If the reviews all say this book is appropriate for 2nd and 3rd grade, that tells me that a book of x words published as an x form (like easy reader) can be done for x audience (2nd-3rd grade). I read the book repeatedly to get a sense of the structure. How much plot is there? How much dialog? How much interior thought? Analyzing all this stuff for a book that I REALLY LIKE helps me get into the mode to try to write a book like that. Not similar in character or plot, but in structure, length, etc.

Laura: It also gives me a book to sort of compare mine to when I'm pitching my book, esp if I send mine to the same publisher. "XYZ is a 6,000-word chapter book aimed at 3rd-graders. You do this type of book so well--I especially enjoyed Somebody Else's TITLE I READ, and I think XYZ would appeal to those same readers."

Louisa.M.Alcott: Is there an age limit for readers of romance novels? Are romance novels just for young teens and adults, or can they be written for children ages 8-12 as well?

Laura: There are definitely middle grade novels (that's that 8-12 age range) that have an element of romance in them. Since this is the age when most girls and boys are morphing from friends to awkwardness to crushes, the romance in these books tends to be very innocent. One I read not too long ago that I loved is The Summer Sherman Loved Me. Rules, by Cynthia Lord, is a fantastic one, too. So is Reaching for Sun, by Tracie Vaughn Zimmer.

Laura: My 13yo daughter has a boyfriend, but she hardly ever sees him. They text, but he goes to a different school. She hangs out a lot with two guys who live behind us. I've been thinking recently a lot about the complications of first boyfriends and whether that's anything I would tackle in a book.

Laura: Anyway, sorry for that digression! Another thing about romance elements for middle grade is that the romance isn't usually the true focus of the book. While MANY books for teen girls are pure romance novels, middle grade novels usually have a different focus and have the romantic element or hint of that as a subplot. All three of the above books I recommended are like that.

Laura: There's also a whole new category of "tween" novels, older than middle grade but not quite YA yet. But a lot of the books labeled tween seem to me to be really YA but with a PG limit. No explicit sex. But still just an older sensibility. So they're not really for 4th-6th grade, in my opinion.

Laura: I would recommend seeking out Best of... lists. Amazon, ALA Notables, NYT, Children's Choice Awards...all sorts of organizations put out annual lists of the best books of the year for various ages. Check out the middle grade ones and read the summaries to find hints or outright descriptions of romance. Then track down those books, read them, note the publishers, and you're on your way with publisher research!

Laura: Hope that helps! Good luck--You know, I see TONS of girls 4th grade and up who definitely have a strong interest in boys, so I'm surprised more publishers haven't moved into younger romance novels.

Louisa.M.Alcott: Thanks for answering my question. The reason why I asked is because I want to write for ages 8-12 and I have two story drafts for romance novels and I wasn't too sure whether or not the market accepted romances for that age group! Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. One last question: Are childrens westerns still popular on the market to-day?

Laura: Children's westerns aren't a big category of publishing, though there are definitely a few cowboy type books published each year, plus historical fiction set in the wild west. Not sure if you mean contemporary westerns or historical. Either way, there aren't many. BUT that doesn't mean a well-written one couldn't sell. The books that will make up the next hot trend are being written RIGHT NOW, but they aren't on the shelves yet. Maybe you'll be the one to start the western trend.

Laura: I would guess chapter books for ages 7-10 or midgrade novels for ages 8 to 12 would make the most eager audience for westerns. Adventure, untamed lifestyle, lots of dirt and violence--well, I hate to talk in stereotypes, but that sure sounds like a boy-pleasing kind of book!

Louisa.M.Alcott: What control does the writer give up to the Illustrator and/or editor once the contract is signed? And have you ever been surprised by the LOOK of the pictures in one of your books after the illustrator did thier work? Rather did you envision your book one way and when you got the proofs it looked totally different? And if so what did you do?

Laura: Ha! In trade publishing (all the books you see at Barnes and Noble), the writer has very little say in the look of the book. If you're a big-name writer, your opinion is probably a little more cared about. But the editor and the illustrator have their own visions, and a picture book is a true collaboration. You have to step back and let them do their thing, even though that's hard.

Laura: Clarion did tell me the illustrator they wanted to use for Stampede, and I loved his style, so that was great. I didn't see ANY illos, though, until he was working on final paintings. So too bad if I hadn't liked it! So glad I did! Here's a taste: http://stampedebook.com/The_Illustrations.html

Laura: With ed publishing (writing books on assignment for series that are sold to school libraries), the writer has NO say. I do usually get to see galleys, but it's not my place to comment on the art or the design, unless I think it presents a problem with clarity or readability or something.

Laura: Mostly, I've been fine with the illustrations and photographs in my books. I love almost every image in Stampede--yay! In my ed books, I had one biography where I thought the art (pencil drawings) made the people look like hobbits--too short, too pudgy, with big, hairy feet. I voiced a bit of very polite, reserved concern, but didn't take it any farther than that. I've written a lot for Picture Window Book, and I love the bright, cute illo styles they use. I have had a couple of really bad covers, and I blogged about it here: http://laurasalas.livejournal.com/14222.html I generally try not to trash-talk my publishers in ANY way. But I couldn't let that scrapbooking cover slide. Really.

Laura: There have only been a few times when I've been REALLY disappointed with the art. And that's just part of the deal when you write for educational markets. I didn't say a peep. With trade publishers, you THEORETICALLY have the right to debate, object, etc. But who wants to be branded a trouble-making prima donna? Plus they have years of experience figuring out how to make the best, most salable books. It still comes down to just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best!

LongShadows: Is there any easy way to find out who was the editor of a particular book? I've researched and identified books put out by a publisher that indicate to me that my book might fit with what they have published, but don't know how to find out who was involved with those books.

Laura: his is sometimes easy, sometimes tough. First, google the author's name and title and editor. Like, ["Dara Dokas" "Muriel's Red Sweater" editor]. Sometimes you'll come across interviews or blog posts where the author mentioned her editor by name. Second, Google just the title and the word editor. Third, last ditch--call the publisher and ask the receptionist for the name of the editor of xyz book. Some won't tell you, but some will. Fourth, email the author. Usually if you're polite and professional, they'll answer and tell you.

Yaya: I cannot even imagine the thrill of receiving that first book acceptance. What was it like?

Laura: Yaya--I got lots of assignments for educational books, and those were pretty exciting in the beginning.But my first trade book offer...wow.

Laura: Stampede, a poetry collection, had been with an editor at Clarion for a long time. More than a year, I think. She called me to see if it was still available. Why, yes, it was! (I hate talking on the phone with editors. I'm so nervous. I barely remember what was said.) She wanted to share it with colleagues and would get back to me soon. Nothing. I followed up via email. A couple of months went by. She called again to say she had some revision thoughts and would I be open to them? Why, yes, I would! We talked in broad terms, and she said she'd send me a letter with more detail about what she was hoping to do. Weeks went by. I followed up. Got the letter and was so excited for concrete forward motion.

Laura: I was driving to pick up my daughter from school, and at a stoplight (I had grabbed the mail out of the mailbox on my way down the driveway) I glanced at her letter. I was completely shocked to find that the letter ended with an actual offer, in writing, including the advance. Ack!!!

Laura: My heart was going a million miles a minute and I was whooping and practically hyperventilating in my car. My whole body felt like a bundle of nerves all firing at once. It was definitely one of the most exciting moments of my life! Whew--thanks for helping me relive that, and may you experience it soon, too!

Yaya: Can you explain trade books to me?

Laura: In the children's publishing world, trade publishing is everything you see sold at Barnes & Noble and other big mainstream bookstores. The kind of books people buy for their kids or for presents, etc. These books the writer writes first, then tries to sell to a publisher.

Laura: And educational publishing is companies who publish books in series to sell directly to schools (and also some to public libraries). But you won't find those books on the shelves at B&N. These books are written on asst. So I get assigned to write several nonfiction books each spring and fall on various topics. Educational writing is my somewhat steady writing income.

Laura: (As opposed to adult writing, where trade journals, for instance, are magazines that have to do with a specific career or trade.)

Laura: I teach an online class about writing for the educational market. This info ( http://www.laurasalas.com/present/on_nf_250.html) is outdated, because this class is done for now. But I'll likely be offering it again before the end of the year. Also, if you're anywhere near Minneapolis, I'm teaching an all-day intensive on it on June 13, 2009 at the Loft Literary Center. Here are the details of the class: http://www.loft.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=2124

Laura: I teach this an an online intensive class, too. And it is intense. I teach it in different lengths (4-8 weeks, though they all cover the same material), and I'll be teaching it again sometime this year, though I'm not sure when yet. Possibly August 2009. You can see info about my online class here: http://www.laurasalas.com/present/on_nf_250.html From that page, you can click to read complete course info, including a syllabus, references, etc.

zebrakitchen: The books in libraries are often sturdier, sometime the pages are thicker but, often you can find the same book in B&N. Are they from the same publishing house? An example, The Tales of Desperaux, did two different publishing houses take on that book?

Laura: Oh, good question. OK, regular trade books are also sold to schools, and those editions of the books have library bindings, so they stand up to heavy-duty use. And some publishers, like Perfection Learning, republish (after paying for permission to do so) other books to sell and distribute to school libraries.

Laura: But educational market books are the ones written in series, specifically for school libraries. I copied an ed pub tip sheet for beginners into another answer, and it has websites for a number of the bigger ed publishers. You could look at those to see what I mean.

Laura: Here are a couple I write for regularly: http://www.picturewindowbooks.com/ and http://www.capstonepress.com/ Just to give you some small taste. These are almost exclusively nonfiction, all tie in a little bit (or a lot) to the school curriculum and these companies hire writers to write the books.

mmmgood: Do young teens show interest in poetry other than "dark" subjects? I've written a couple of lighthearted pieces for that age group, but I don't have a clue how to market them. Teen magazines certainly don't appear to print poetry. Do you have any suggestions?

Laura: Great question! OK, I hate to make generalizations, but here are a couple of big ones. Not enough teens read poetry of any kind to make it a profitable thing for publishers to publish. The exception (generalization here) seems to be love poems. Books filled with poems about relationships seem to be a big hit. And even then, they don’t sell big numbers, but at least publishers are willing to publish them (especially by authors with a proven track record). For instance, Partly Cloudy, by Gary Soto, is one good recent one. So is More Than Friends, by Sara Holbrok and Allan Wolf. But those aren’t lighthearted pieces.

Laura: Here’s the problem, in my opinion. Young teens often like silly/funny poems, but silly poems are mostly only published in picture book form, which looks too babyish for them to be caught dead with. So they don’t read any poetry at all.

Laura: I have a collection of gross poems under consideration. I see it as upper elementary. My editor thinks it’s 3rd-grade tops. So IF it gets published, it will be published as a picture book with young art. And I’m not sure 3rd-graders will get the humor.

Laura: For funny teen poetry, take a look at Animals Anonymous, by Richard Michelson. This might be more young adult than you were thinking, because it has a few cuss words and some sexual innuendo. But teens love it. Especially reluctant readers and boys! And that’s one of the problems, I think. What teens find funny is often a bit raunchy. But poetry books depend HEAVILY on selling to school libraries in order to have any kind of sales at all. So books with naughty bits face censorship, so I think that makes publishers less likely to publish them.

Laura: Another funny teen collection is Blue Lipstick, by John Grandits. This is the sequel to Technically, It’s Not My Fault, funny poems from the point of view of a 6th grade boy. Blue Lipstick is told from his older sister’s point of view.

Laura: Another option is a novel in verse. Check out Swimming Upstream, by Kristine O’Connell George. This tells a story about a girl’s first year in middle school, and while there’s some seriousness, it’s a light-hearted story overall.

Laura: If you enjoy writing lighthearted poems for teens, I think your best bet is to put together a collection. Since it wouldn’t be a picture book, this would be a pretty large group of poems—somewhere from 30 to 80 poems.

Laura: For individual poems, you’re right. Teen magazines, the few that do take poetry, tend toward more “literary” poems. There aren’t a whole lot of marketing options available that I know of except this: Use it to reach people. Pick a “signature” poem, polish it until it’s perfect, and use it on your website, your blog, put it on bookmarks, send out a holiday card to editors with it on it, etc. By not trying to “publish” it with traditional publishers (and for just one or two pieces, this is SO hard to do), and by instead just putting it out there, you’ll probably get lots more readers of it! And you never know where that might lead.

Laura: The sad lack of poetry publishing options is one reason I and many more well-published poets than me (like Julie Larios, Jane Yolen, etc.) put so many poems in blogs and other online spots. We don’t make any money from that, nor do we get a lot of attention (mostly we’re read by other writers rather than by kids), but we do get to put our work out there, which helps feed all our other writing and makes us part of the poetry community:>) Good luck! Sorry I can’t really offer individual teen markets for light-hearted poetry. I wish I knew of more!

LouiseA: I see that you are member of SCBWI but I have not been able to read the SCBWI articles as of yet. The new website still has some kinks in it. I have a couple of questions.

LouisaA: [1]I am a member of SCBWI (2 years) but have never attended the MAIN CONFERNCES. I have attended the Orlando (this June will be twice) and Miami (once this past Jan). I have a few picture books written but NONE accepted! Actually I have only submitted one. Do you think that it is worth the investment of time and money to attended when you are still so new?

Laura: I have gotten a lot of info and support over the years from SCBWI and am giving a local workshop this Saturday, in fact! Now, I didn't attend the L.A. or NY conferences until I had been writing many years. I attended the local ones faithfully, but not the biggies. If you can afford it, there's lots to be learned at either of the biggies. But if it will really be a stretch financially, there might be better ways to spend that money. From the perspective of having been a writer for many years now, I see that I get much more out of them now that I have more knowledge about the industry. So if you have decent local conferences, you might want to stick with those for another couple of years. Totally up to you, of course.

Laura: I'm debating whether to go to L.A. this August. I would love to, but can I afford the $1,500 for tuition, airfare, hotel, and food? Not really. The thing is, you never know who you will connect with that will make a difference. It's one of those things that you just don't know what might happen until you go!

LouiseA: [2]I think I saw where you won a grant from SCBWI. If that is correct, how did you apply and win? Did someone suggest that you submit or did you just … submit?

Laura: I did! Well, I was runner-up to the Martha Weston grant, and they paid my tuition at L.A. That was the first time I went. The SCBWI Bulletin mentions all the grants, and you can also learn more here: http://www.scbwi.org/Pages.aspx/Martha-Weston-Grant

LouiseA: [3]When attending a workshop or conference, I know it is NOT proper to walk up to an editor or agent and hand them your work or corner them shoving your work into their hands (or pockets ) BUT ON THE OTHER HAND there is a lot of talk about the ‘elevator pitch’ SO my question is: How do I get that ‘in’ with the agent/editor? Should I wear a T-shirt that says “I have a book dummy, if you have time, ask to see it!”

Laura: If you can get 30 seconds with an editor, intro yourself, tell them you enjoyed their speech, or recent books, or whatever you can compliment, and give your 15-second elevator pitch. Ask if it's something she'd be interested in seeing. If she says yes, give her your biz card, thank her profusely, and then leave quickly so she can chat with all the other waiting people. (Of course, I'm terrible at stuff like this. Ack--makes me nervous to think about it. But I'm sloooooooowly getting better.)

LouiseA: [4] I guess my real SCBWI workshop/conference question is: I have take business cards, I meet authors, illustrators, editors and agents but there is only 2 author/illustors so far that I have kept in contact with. (not stalking contact, maybe an email every 3 or 4 months) NOW how do I make the contact that helps get the contract? OH, I feel compelled to tell you, I am NOT a young woman. I have much experience (and a granddaughter). I somehow feel like this is an obsticle to getting my FIRST few contracts. (so unless I can somehow get this old worn out body into WOW shape before June or August, I really think the T-shirt question is OUT...)

Laura: Sounds like you're doing the right things. Are you submitting manuscripts to the editors you meet? Do you feel like, after hearing them speak, that your manuscripts really fit their publishing lines? In each query or cover letter, remind them of where you met.

Laura: One thing that can really help is to volunteer to help out with a conference. Volunteers often get extra time with an editor as they shepherd her around or keep time in her session or whatever. Volunteering at a local SCBWI conference is what got me assts with my first TWO publishers, so I highly recommend it. Depending on what your volunteer duties are, they might require you to be in touch with eds before or after the conference, too, which is great. That personal connection helps so much. Don't get me wrong--the ms has to be A-Mazing in today's market, but if it is, that personal connection can get a publisher considering your work more quickly.

Laura: And on the t-shirt. Thanks for the laugh! You know, I'm 42, and I go to conferences and meet 20-something editors and I'm already starting to feel a bit of that, too, so I do understand where you're coming from. The biggest thing I can recommend is presenting yourself as both energetic and professional (and your sense of humor won't hurt, either!).

roundtoit: Okay so if you had two columns of itemized points to cross check your manuscript with that of a publisher what would you head those columns with?

Laura: If I’m understanding your question right, you’re asking what are my top two priorities in matching a publisher with a manuscript? Let’s see. That’s a good question, but it’s hard, because I consider a mishmash of many criteria. If I HAD to narrow it down (and you’re forcing me!), then I would say:

Laura: Publish Stuff Like This? – In other words, do they already publish wonderful books of the kind I hope mine will be—whether that’s poetry collections for upper elementary kids, funny middle grade series, or picture book nonfiction. I want a publisher that does my type of book already and does it well. That way they will be able to more easily see my manuscript fitting into their existing catalog.

Laura: Who Do They Market To? – I think about this more and more nowadays, and it’s not always easy to discern. But as I study markets more, knowing who publishers are trying to sell their books to helps me know whether mine might fit. For instance, Henry Holt sells a lot of books to the school library market. So books (even fiction or picture books) that have a tie-in to a curriculum topic appeal to them even more so than to all publishers because that gives them a hook to sell that book with. Scholastic sells tons of their books directly to kids through book fairs (they sell non-Scholastic books in book fairs, too, now), book clubs, and through high-profile paid (as far as I know) placement at bookstores. High kid-appeal, wide appeal, lots of humor, the kind of books that would entertain 24 out of 25 students in a room – this is very generalized, but these are the kind of books I think of for Scholastic. Like Henry Holt, Boyds Mills markets heavily to schools, and I also think of them as appealing to the “grandparent” market a lot. They put out a lot of lovely books but tend to have a conservative, slightly old-fashioned feel to them. Now these descriptions don’t fit EVERY book for any given publisher. They’re just generalizations, but they can help me know whether a manuscript fits the CORE feeling of that publisher, or whether it’s a little more on the edges of their publishing program and thus a bit more of a long shot.

Elly-Kay: Hi. I am new to children's writing, but I have been writing professionally for adults for three years. I am currently enrolled in ICL and my instructor commented on one of my assignments that it is "totally saleable." Now what?! (This instructor is no longer with ICL, so I can't get additional feedback from her.)

Elly-Kay: The 1,000 word (semi-autobiographical) story, aimed at grades 3-6, is about a little girl who loves to sing, but is crushed when her new music teacher asks her to mouth the words so she can hear other students at a try-out for a school musical. At the end of the story, the protagonist discovers she has a talent for talking (narration), rather than reading.

Elly-Kay: My question is: How do I know if the story is "saleable" as a picture book or a magazine fiction piece?

Laura: Hi Elly-Kay, First, congrats on the lovely feedback from your instructor. As a former instructor, I know I did NOT give out that kind of feedback lightly, because I didn't want to give someone false hope. So--that's awesome!

Laura: Short story vs. picture book--That's such a great question, because on the surface they seem so alike, but they're really so different.

Laura: But a simple basic truth is that picture books are generally published for the 4-8-year-old range. A few might skew older, but those are usually nonfiction books. So to me, it definitely sounds like you have a short story. But just to help with this question in general, for your other manuscripts, here's an excerpt from my Matchmaking Your Manuscript class that I teach online with Lisa Bullard:

Laura: One of the most confusing areas is in short stories versus picture book manuscripts. Ahem. Can I say I struggled with this? For several years, I submitted what I thought were picture books to editors. None of them sold, though several later sold as short stories for testing materials. That's very telling. A true picture book manuscript would not work as a magazine short story. What I had were short story manuscripts, not picture book manuscripts.

Laura: Here are some facts I've learned over the years about the differences between picture books and short stories. Picture books must have enough visual possibilities for at least 13 different illustrations. If you can picture your manuscript published in Ladybug or Cricket or Highlights, with one or two fantastic illustrations, then you don't have a picture book. In a true picture book, the art is necessary. It provides half the story. The manuscript itself is usually quite spare.

Laura: Also, a picture book has to have resonance. People pay $16-20 for these puppies. They need to have enough weight and depth to really strike a chord somehow, so that kids want to hear them over and over. This doesn't mean they can't be funny or whimsical. But there must be a quality there of something substantial. It's hard to describe, but after you read 500 good picture books, you'll know what I'm talking about. This kind of manuscript gets to the bare essence of something, hints and echoes at some larger truth about childhood and life.

Laura: A picture book doesn't have descriptive detail. The art shows the reader what everything looks like, and the manuscript must leave room for the illustrator.

Laura: A picture book generally has less dialog than a short story.

Laura: Now, there are exceptions to all of these guidelines, of course. But if you read many, many picture books (ones that are being published today, not ones from 20 years ago), you'll start to understand what feels like a picture book manuscript. And this holds true for every genre. If you want to write a middle-grade novel (or if you think that's what you're writing), you should be reading at least one middle grade novel per week. After you read a hundred of them, you'll know whether your manuscripts fits under the same umbrella, or whether it's really a chapter book or a YA (young adult) novel, or one of those newly emerging "tween" titles in disguise!

Jan: So, thank you veddy much Laura...you know I'm a fan! I know I'm HUGELY impressed with everything you've shared with us. I knew you were brilliant, of course, but you've been generous and kind above and beyond.

mmmgood: You've gained fans-a-plenty here, of which I am one. And I echo Jan's HUGELY IMPRESSED. If I don't get a chance to interact with you again today, just please know that you are appreciated immensely.

sheri: I think everyone here is blown away by how much Laura knows on this topic! We are so lucky to have had her visit and offer this workshop! Thank you so much, Laura!

Laura: Thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome, the lovely compliments, and the great questions. Jan, what a fabulous community you've got going here! I've enjoyed being part of it and I wish everyone great success with their projects. Kids' writers are such nice people, and it was a pleasure to talk with all of you.I love the spirit of these chat boards and how encouraging everyone is.

Laura: I teach some online classes (not general children's writing classes like ICL's wonderful program) about very specific areas: writing for the educational market, for instance, and rhyming poetry, and matchmaking your manuscript--which is all about researching publishers and preparing your submissions packet. These are paid workshops, not free (I have to point that out since I'm amazed at the fabulous free resources here on the ICL site), but with lots of personal feedback.

Laura: If anyone's interested in getting on my "email notify list," you can send me an email at lauras_accounts@yahoo.com. I'd add you to my list, and that means once a month (at most) you'd get at email letting you know of any upcoming online or in-person classes/events I was offering.