Jan Fields is moderator of this interview/workshop, and Web Editor of the ICL Web Site. Green shows names or usernames of people and the questions they asked of our speaker.

Jan Fields: Let's welcome Kristin Wolden Nitz to the Writer's Retreat. We're looking forward to learning all about plotting mysteries.

Cat: Thank you so much for coming, and giving us so much of your time and answers. You are an inspiration, and we really appreciate your willingness to let us "pick your brain" and learn from you. I hope you enjoy your visit, and never lack for questions to answer.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: First of all, feel free to call me Kristin. You’d definitely be using my first name if we wound up sitting next to each other at a writer’s retreat somewhere. I hope that this will be a conversation with people asking questions and sharing their experiences. We’ll take a two-pronged attack with respect to organization. I’ll be answering questions that pop up on various threads, but I’ll also take you on a journey that starts with that first idea and goes onto the final edits. That means that you might find me repeating myself here and there as I go from section to section.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Keep in mind that learning to lay clues into a novel will serve you well no matter what type of novel you write. Think of all of those characters who either try to hide or uncover secrets in books like BELLE PRATER’S BOY, SPEAK, and THE THIEF.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Please forgive errors in punctuation and spelling. Sometimes my keyboard doesn’t cooperate when I’m posting to my blog or updating my Facebook status. So there’s probably something funky going on with my interface. I don’t have the problem when working on Word or Outlook Express. I will do my best to review posts before I put them up to catch the worst ones.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Please forgive all of the Elizabeth Peters references. While I’ve read a lot of mysteries intended for adults and kids, she’s my favorite mystery writer. In fact, I’m afraid that in some ways, SUSPECT could almost be considered an Elizabeth Peters/Barbara Michaels knockoff. Interesting and specific setting? Check. Clues carefully woven into action, description and dialogue? Check. Romance? Check. Headstrong older ladies? Check. Clever dialogue? Well, I’d like to think so. And there are worse things than emulating a person who’s been voted Grandmaster by her peers.

Claudette: I've not delberately written a mystery before. I've read long-time mystery writers that say they write the end of the book first. The solution to the crime, etc. Then they literally write the book backwards from solution to perpetration and beginning. Do you write that way? Would you recommend that a beginner start by thinking that way in order to discover all the necessary elements for the mystery?

Anita3: I would also like to add: how does a writer start thinking of the solution first? Do you have an idea of the plot before the solution? Or do you think of characters? Thank you!

Kristin Wolden Nitz: The writing of my first draft of SUSPECT was a bit like building the Transcontinental Railroad. I wrote the first three chapter first. Then I wrote the last three chapters. I continued jumping back and forth unti the two parts met in the middle. It felt a bit like I had driven the golden spike into my book when I had a complete manuscript. But then I had to adjust both the beginning and the end based on what I'd written. Writing is revision!

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I'm going to do a post at some point today that goes into developing an idea into a plot. Some people start with characters, but I typically start with a situation. As I meditated on the basic situation of SUSPECT, I quickly hit upon my villain. In fact, the big confrontation was spinning itself out in my head as I wrote the opening chapters. I think that's why I jumped to the end like I did. When your characters are talking to each other, it's a good idea to take dictation.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: While I strongly advocate knowing the ending when you sit down to write a mystery, I think that you could also be torn between two or three outcomes. As you come to know the characters better while writng the story, you could come to a decision. In the meantime, you could be laying in those clues and red herrings.

Cat: Thank you. It was nice to see you wrote front and back, side to side, chronologically and out of order. I feel so much more organized now!

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Whatever works! I used to be in the habit of coming up with the situation and the resolution. So I'd write the first two or three chapters. But I just KNEW what as going to happen at the big moment, so I would usually go ahead and write the climactic scene while I had it in my head. I'm in the middle of wrapping up a fantasy right now. My next project has the nickname of THE ITALIAN CHASE NOVEL. (Elizabeth Peters fans can think DEAD SEA CIPHER, THE CAMELOT CAPER or THE COPENHAGEN CONNECTION) I've only done some basic outlining, but I already know what's going to happen in the big climactic scene. I have a feeling that I'll write the first three chapters and then the second to the last one. I won't be able to write the very last one until I learn about what my characters learned and experienced on their journey. So if a scene is unrolling, write it! You can scribble it into a notebook or type it into the computer. I usually don't like jumping out of the "now" of the novel. I like experiencing it with my characters. But inspiration is a gift.

Jan Fields: Can you talk a little about ideas? What spark makes a book begin?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Here’s a rant from Jacqueline Kirby, a character in NAKED ONCE MORE by Elizabeth Peters. Ms. Kirby is a writer of prehistoric romances along the lines of CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR. The following was inspired by an invitation from the local library to give a little talk on where she got her ideas:

Kristin Wolden Nitz: "A writer didn’t need “an” idea for a book; she needed at least forty. And “get” was the wrong word, implying that you received an idea as you would a gift. You didn’t get ideas. You smelled them out, tracked them down, wrestled them into submission; you pursued them with forks and hope, and if you were lucky enough to catch one you impaled it, with the forks, before the sneaky little devil could get away."

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But Ms. Peters also admits in a copy of THE WRITER'S HANDBOOK from the 1990's to the various things that have triggered her novels nearly running over a bag of trash on a country road to looking at the streets of old Edinburgh and thought it would be a lovely place for a heroine to be chased in. (Then she mulishly decided that her heroine ought to do the chasing for a change.)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So write down these flashes of inspiration. They can come from your everyday life or you can more actively hunt for ideas through brainstorming with the techniques of Assignment 2. One of my favorite manuscripts came from three random words picked by my kids. I haven't sold that project so far, but it was part of the package that won me an agent. As a novelist, I only need one brand-new story every 12 to 18 months. But I generate lots and lots of ideas along the way.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: One question we often ask ourselves is whether something is big enough to carry a book. I have an essay on that over in RX FOR WRITERS on the Instiute's site called "Prospecting for Gold Nuggets."

Kristin Wolden Nitz: That will be a good jumping off point for how to turn an idea into a plot.

ColoradoKate: I have a mystery outlined; actually, I did it for an ICL lesson. It became very clear, though, that it wouldn't fit into a short story, but on the other hand it would make, at best, a very "slight" novel. Sigh.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Slight--that's turned into one of the most depressing words in the English language for writers. But I really do have to recommend Donald Maass's WRITNG THE BREAKOUT NOVEL for ideas on how to add complications and depth to a project. If the descriptive nugget is interesting enough, it's a matter of developing the characters and subplots to support it.

Cat: Thanks for that. I've got a passion for "How to Write" books. They're very inspiring. WRITING THE BREAKOUT NOVEL sounds encouraging.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I don't read every book that's out there on writing. But I have a friend who does. So I rely on Darcy Pattison to sort through all of them and recommend the best ones. You can too, because she has a great blog/website called Fiction Notes. She's also distilled her thoughts on writing novels into NOVEL METAMORPHOSIS: UNCOMMON WAYS TO REVISE. It's one of a few books on writing that sit on my cluttered desk so it's handy. Others are:
The Writer's Journey by Vogler
Writing Down the Bones by Natalie Goldberg
Writing the Breakout Novel by Donald Maass
The Writer's Handbook 1990 edition collected from The Writer
Word Magic by Cindy Rogers

Whimsey: I'm really interested in the pacing of a mystery story especially with respect to revealing true clues and red herrings. It's really a question of how much, when, and with what combination of logical reasoning, good old detective footwork (searching, questioning, etc), and being at the right place at the right time.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I've partially addressed some of these issues in other threads. But I'll try to come at these questions from a slightly different angle here. With respect to clues and red herrings, they have to come in just about every chapter. They need to be smoothed into the text when it feels natural to do so, whether it's in description or dialogue.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: In my mystery, Jen didn't do a lot of traditional legwork as you might see in something like NCIS or Law and Order. But she did go in search of clues on a couple of occasions. And since all of the potential suspects of a crime that might not have even been committed were close friends or family, Jen wasn't going to roam around like a baby bird, asking, "Are you my mother's murderer?" But there was the flash of realization that enabled her to put the various clues together and look at them in a certain way. I will be going into building scenes at some point. That might be helpful.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: It hit me last night while I was lying awake in my bed with a bad case of stomach flu, that the question of measuring pacing could be attacked in two different ways. Check out Darcy Pattison's technique known as "the shrunken manuscript" on Fiction Notes. The short explanation is that you get rid of the double spacing and use the smallest font that you can read. Print up your manuscript and put it on the wall or on a floor. Then you can go through and mark the spots where you've delivered a red herring or clue If there's a big gap in the story, you might need to tuck in something on motivation

Kristin Wolden Nitz: This technique can also be used to track subplots, emotiona arcs and so on. It lays it out there so you can touch it.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: You can also do thi by using index cards and colored pens or pencils. First of all, pick a different color ink for each character under suspicion. On one index card make your key. Then go through your book chapter by chapter, using one index card per chapter. Write one sentence or phrase describing the clue or red herring. Do the same for each person in a different color. Once you finish, lay out your cards in order. (You might need to use the floor.) Separate the cards into three lines such that the first act of your book is lined up along the top and so on. Then trace the progression of the main plot and the subplot. Does one of the characters or subplots disappear for a long stretch of time? Maybe you need to adjust how your characters are interacting. For example, my character's father disappeared for a long time in SUSPECT. But I figured out a place to put him into the book.

ColoradoKate: Do you have any hints for writing very short mysteries? I've tried, but I find it hard to fit in the clues and to build suspense within the short word count, especially within the 500 or 800 words allowed for younger children.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: First, let me confess that I haven't attempted any short mysteries. They are indeed a challenge because you clearly don't have many words to work with. Most writers for adults would consider 500 words a micro-story. I have worked with my students on a number of mysteries though. So here are some keys to think about:

Kristin Wolden Nitz:

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 2. Think extremely hard about where to begin and end your story. I sometimes call this framing. If you pick the right moment to enter and exit your main character's life, you'll have an easier time with those tight, tight word limits. If your a student of the Institute, reread the TALK ABOUTS on the winning beginning and bringing your story to an exciting close. If you're not--and even if you are--head straight to the magazine stacks at the biggest regional library that's close by. See where those successful writers begin and end their stories.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 3. For those students of the Institute out there, I'd like you to reread MARY ELLEN HAD A SHEEP in BEST OF THE CHILDREN'S MARKET. That's a complete story without a word wasted. It has charming give and take. The main character solves the problem in a very clever way. Frankly, it's a little jewel, and I shake my head in wonder at what the writer accomplished with so few words.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 4. Put all the clues out there so the reader can see them.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 5. There WILL be suspense in the mystery if your main character is invested in the outcome either out of concern for self or empathy for someone else.

Claudette: I admire a lot of America's current mystery and crime thriller writers; Susan Whittig Albert, Rita Mae Brown, James Patterson and John Grisham to name a few. Then I found out a week or so ago that Patterson creates a loose plotline and hands it off to another writer to be written. Does this kind of thing go on regularly in the publishing biz?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I knew some writers who ghosted the Animorph books back in the day. The author oversaw the arc of the plot and continued to write certain books. The Sweet Valley High books were also ghosted. If scads of books come out in paperback, that's often a sign. Anne McCaffrey let people play in her "The Ship Who Sang" world. Both authors names were on the cover. But sometimes writers are just that productive and smooth like Charlotte MacLeod/Alisha Craig and Elizabeth Peters/Barbara Michaels. I know that Elizabeth Peters' editor asked her to pick a pen name.

Cat: For mysteries, I know it's a good thing to get those planted in a story. Where, and how, do you plant them? Do you incorporate them, right off the bat, into the story, or do you go back later, after you've completed the first draft, and figure where to drop them?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Both. As I worked my way through the scenes in my first draft, I did my best to lay in both the red herrings and the clues that whisper for my first group of readers. I wanted them to be trying to solve the mystery along with my main character Jen. My goal was for everything to make sense while still being a bit of a surprise. The cases against the other suspects had to be strong enough to create doubt in the readers' minds even if they did have the correct perp in mind all along.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I was lucky enough to have several writing groups. So I ran my mystery through one group and collected feedback to shrpen things up before going onto the next one.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But I continued to add and adjust the clues and red herrings after I received the "notes" from my editor at Peachtree, Lisa Mathews. She gave me plenty of direction for that final revision. Some things that made it past my critique groups weren't good enough for her! She edited the Nancy Drew book for Random House back in the 1990's as well as some well-received mysteries by Dori Butler and Alison Hart at Peachtree.

Pippi: Is it appropriate to include red herrings in magazine mysteries written for beginning readers? Or should we avoid them for younger readers (will these readers become too confused)?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I know that space is tight, but even then you want to get your readers thinking one thing so that you can suprise and delight the with the twist. That could mean a red herring!

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Question: What's the best way to learn how to plant clues and red herrings? Answer: Reading high quality mysteries more than once.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: On the first time through, you can enjoy the story, become engaged with the characters and try to figure out the puzzle. On the second time through, you can see exactly where and how the author smoothed in the clues. You can see where characters were lying to each other. You can understand the underlying meanings behind comments. The best mysteries can be read more than once because you will care about the characters and delight in how they interact.

Ellen: Other than Elizabeth Peters (who I saw you mention in another thread), what books would you say qualify here? Or is that a matter of personal preference? If I read mysteries, they tend to be the paranormal ones (e.g., Victoria Laurie) or screwball ones (e.g., Janet Evanovich). I'm not as well-read in the genre as I think I should be to write a mystery.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: For the sake of discussion, we'll define a high quality mystery as a book that you would want to read again because you enjoyed spending time with the characters. But if you'd like to so which books have earned the resect of mystery writers, you can go check out the Edgar and Agatha winners not to mention the nominees. The Edgars are voted on by the Mystery Writers of America. The Agatha Awards are voted on by readers at the Malice Domestic convention. Back i the 1980's and 1990's, I went through a mystery stage where I read just about every book that had a skull on the spine. Here are some of the authors that I really bonded with as a reader:
Charlotte MacLeod
Agatha Christie
Dorothy Sayers
Sharon McCrumb
Georgette Heyer (At least many of her Regency romances had mysteries attached.)
Lindsey Davis (A hard-boiled detective in ancient Rome)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I know that I read quite a bit of Joan Hess back then, but I finally gave up the Claire Malloy series because I coudn't buy into the way the main character kept putting herself in danger to pursue her amateur investigations. (But my critique groups someties complain about how I'm not good at suspending my disbelief, so this could be me instead of her.)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: When I was a kid, I wolfed down Encyclopedia Brown, Alfred Hitchcock’s Three Investigators, Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Probably my favorite children's mystery is THE WESTING GAME. Ellen Raskin's book was voted to be one of the op ten chapter books of all time in an unscientifIc poll on Fuse#8. Some comparatively recent books that have impressed me are THE MYSTERIOUS BENEDICT SOCIETY, DO YOU KNOW THE MONKEY MAN and RUN FROM A NUN. And of course, there's an element of mystery in the Percy Jackson books and THEODOSIA books.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So back to the question of whether you've read enough in the genre to write a mystery. Joelle Anthony just had an article in the SCBWI National Bulletin about how she read 100 young adults in a year to familiarize herself with the young adult conventions and cliche. So ask yourself how many mysteries you've read. More than 50? More than 100? But keep in mind that so many works of contemporary fiction have some kind of mystery embedded in them. You're picking up some techniques by osmosis.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: While Gordan Korman's NO MORE DEAD DOGS isn't marketed as a mystery, one of the main characters has to catch a perp to prevent disaster at th school play. I LOVE this book with a deep and abiding passion. I also recommend it for people who want to attempt shifting point of view.

Okami: When you're mixing one genre with another, how do you help clue in the reader without risk of telling over showing one aspect more than the other? I've been brainstorming a PI-style mystery, but it's also an Urban fantasy, and a little romance, (Note: this story isn't aimed at kids, but adults, but may have crossover with upper YA readers who are college age or have started reading adult fiction. (Not erotic or super violent, but just aimed at older readers since the main characters are in the early to mid 20s) but it's not as dominant as the urban fantasy/PI aspects of the story. Any advice, tips, or resources I can turn to would be much appreciated.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: The good news is that I don't think you'll have to worry about confusing your audience as long as you get at least of taste of the urban fantasy tucked into your very first chapter somewhere. It doesn't have to be overt. A few interesting hints will do if you're not interested in hitting things too hard in your opening. You can build things up gradually as long as the reader feels slightly unsettled. I'm guessing that you'd be shelved with fantasy rather than in the mysteries, but you never know. Isaac Asimov's detective robots? They were in SF Lindsey Davis hardboiled detective in ancient Rome? Both in mystery and general fiction. Robin LaFevers' Theodosia books? Definitely fantasy, but one was nominated for an Edgar. Romance is a component in so many books, so that's nothing to worry about.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Finally, Cheryl Klein, an editor at Arthur Levine Books, has said that there are three basic plots.
Conflict
Mystery/Need information
Lack/ Character needs something to be complete.
Stories that combine these three things are often the strongest

Kristin Wolden Nitz: One of my favorite mysteries is actually by SF writer Lois McMaster Bujold. But I wouldn't want you to read MEMORY until you read all the other books in the Vorkosigan series. They each stand alone, but there's an additional wallop if you read them one after the other.

Anita3: am rewriting my last chapter in my mystery and I wondered what does your last chapter to your mysteries entail? I first wrote the chapter and had the character sum up the solution to the mystery with her sidekick. But, I somehow lost the focus of the main character. Now, I am in the rewriting stage. Any suggestions?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I have to start by letting you know right off the bat that some bloggers felt that the ending to SUSPECT was rushed. That actually surprised me just a bit because the ending came two chapters after my big climax. After a bit of reflection, I think that the readers were disappointed that I didn't show them a certain character for the last time.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Yes, you will want your protagonist to share some finer points of how the mystery was solved in that last chapter, but I would encourage you to put certain deductions in the lead-up to the climactic scene and in the big scene. You can clarify other things in the final chapter, but it's also a time to let your character deal with the emotional fallout of events. If your reader already knows certain things, you don't have to go through the entire solution in a conversation with the sidekick. You can have a couple of sentences that "tell" about the general content of the conversation--perhaps as the sidekick gets outraged at being left in the dark--before getting on to the necessary clarifications.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I'd also suggest that you go and look at the endings of your favorite mysteries. When I know a manuscript has a problem, that's what I do. Congratulations on a good self-diagnosis.

Cat: How do you create tension? Sometimes, as I'm writing, I feel like all I'm doing is emphasizing the tension that has already appeared, and not really adding to it. How do put tension in the book, and keep it crescendoing until the last chapter, when all is resolved?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Actually, it is important to maintain focus on the underlying problem as long as you keep building on what you have. The bottom line is that things have to keep getting worse for your character. My editor Lisa Mathews finds the Step Outline to be a very valuable tool: Act I:
Set-up
Turning point/story takes new direction/challenge revealed.
Act II:
Problem Intensifies
Temporary Triumph
Reversal
Darkest Moment
Decision Time
Act III
Final Obstacle
Climax
Resolution

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Please note that in Act II that there will often be a series of events in which the problem intensifies followed by the temporary triumph and reversal until your character comes to his or her darkest moment. Psychologically, this is the lowest moment for the character. Circumstances will often be worse during the climax, but the character will have often reached the point of saying, "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead."

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Interestingly enough, my characters in SAVING THE GRIFFIN and DEFENDING IRENE both hit their rock bottom moments at about two thirds of the way through the manuscript. I've seen this general pattern repeating itself in novels from A WRINKLE IN TIME to NO MORE DEAD DOGS.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Don't be afraid to make your characters suffer! But add complications in a way that feels real and organic. One comparaively unknown YA novel, whose title I will not mention, made me feel like it had been constructed like a sandwich at Subway with dysfunction randomly piled on top of dysfunction.

Mikki S: The outline you gave sounds a lot like the basic outline for the Hero's Journey by Christopher Vogler. Do you find it similar, and if so, do you recommend this as a starting point for a mystery?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: The Step Outline is similar to the hero's journey, but you don't have to define things like "approach to the inmost cave" and "return with the elixir." So yes, I think that you really can apply the hero's journey as described by Vogler and Campbell to a deeply personal mystery such as the one you describe. Just remember that there can be variations in the journey for your character's situation.

Mikki S: Thanks, Kristin. When I wrote the historical novel, the Hero's Journey was a good starting point for me, since I HATE outlining, but there were several points that didn't apply, like the "approach to the inner most cave" and "returning with the elixir", along with a couple of others, but it did work well for the rest. I'll see what happens with this mystery.

Cat: This is sort of the same question as the red herring one. For clues, do you work them into the story with the first draft, or do you go back after the first draft has been completed and decide where a clue would fit in? Also, how do you make them believable, and not "coincidental"?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Making clues believable is key! If something seems like an unbelievable coincidence, you risk having readers shut the book and sneer, "Well, isn't THAT convenient." I know that this happens because I've done it. But here's one of the beautiful things about revising: you can go back and find a spot earlier in the manuscript to set up the revelation so that it works. When you're in the middle of a first draft, it's often a good idea to keep the forward momentum going. So make a note to yourself either at that spot in the manuscript or at a spot where you think a prepatory revelation might work. <> Anyone who is familiar with the "track changes" function could put a comment in the margins.

ColoradoKate: I know with adult mysteries there are different types--cozies, police procedurals, and I-don't-know-what-all--with their own "rules" and structure and, to an extent, voice. Are there rules or commonalities that are specific to children's and YA mysteries? Or would you just look at adult cozies to get the right feel for a cozy-type YA mystery, for instance?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: From what I've heard, a goodly percentage of YA mysteries out there these days have some kind of paranormal slant to them. Others are in the action/adventure mode or the "so edgy I want to skim over the bad parts, but they're everywhere" category. There aren't many straight mysteries. In fact, the Ninja Librarian Blogger wrote: I've been known to say that there are not enough mysteries in YA lit. This is a book that is helping us get rid of this problem." And on top of that SUSPECT is one of the few YA cozies out there.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So my models were definitely writers like Elizabeth Peters, Charlotte MacLeod, Georgette Heyer, Alisa Craig, Sharyn McCrumb, and Dorothy Cannell. But in order to get the tone of YA right, I read authors like Gordan Korman, Laurie Halse Anderson, Carolyn Mackler and Joan Bauer. Actually, Joan Bauer has a very nice YA mystery called PEELED.

ColoradoKate: That's very interesting about there being few straight mysteries in YA; I'm off to hunt down SUSPECT! How about the old, old series (that are being revived now, I think)--Nancy Drew, or the Hardy Boys? Straight mystery? I think MG has more mystery, maybe--Encyclopedia Brown; Cam Jansen; Chet Gecko! Oh, and CHASING VERMEER and its sequels. Would those be considered straight mystery, maybe?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I'd agree that there are more mysteries in middle grade fiction. You shared some great examples. Mysteries are especially popular in the early chapter books. Dori Butler's new series, THE BUDDY FILES are another very good example.

Pippi: I too have an engineering and science background. I'm wondering if there's a good way to hone in on those analytical skills and apply them to mystery plotting? I've had a couple of short mysteries published this year so I think I'm growing in this area but I haven't been able to master balancing my analytical skills with my creative juices. I tend to really overthink things and then my stories begin to feel dry and mechanical. On the other hand when I'm feeling creative, some of my ideas are fun but just way out there - not enough substance for publication. Have you found a good way to balance these skills while writing and how do you apply the technical/analytical side to mystery writing? I only started writing seriously a couple of years ago; after spending decades in the engineering/sciences, I really struggle with finding a good balance sometimes. I'm wondering if you have any tips based on your experiences.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: You can take the girl out of engineering, but you can't take that engineering background out of the girl. There's just a certain way of thinking. I'm afraid this drives some of my critique partners a bit crazy when I tell them that I can't buy into something due to some matter of internal logic. But we all have our quirks. I figure that if they can get something by me that they can get it by most people. With respect to my own stuff, I think that I shut off the analytical side when I do cafe writing. Natale Goldberg goes into this technique with her book WRITING DOWN THE BONES. There's an essay on it on my website. So have fun and be playful.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Let's talk about "Pursuing the Idea." So let’s say that you have that initial flash of inspiration. How do you start pursuing it? My initial idea for SUSPECT came to me when I was reading a newspaper about a winery in either Hermann or Augusta that was reopening an old wine cellar that had been walled-up for years. I remember thinking, “What if they found a body in there?” So of course, that led me to think about why and how someone would hide a body away. I had spent time roaming checking out the winding roads and the wineries in the Augusta area. So I already had a body and a great location with historic buildings. Those were two aspects of many early Elizabeth Peters novels. I decided to go after it.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Now I don’t believe that you can only write about the things you know. I believe that you can also write about the things you’re passionate about since research will be a pleasure rather than a chore. I rather quickly came to the conclusion that while I liked the Augusta area that I would have a tough time pulling together what I needed to know about the day-to-day operation of a winery. (Okay. Confession time. I finished the first draft of SUSPECT back in 1999. If anyone wants to check into the rather long story surrounding its long road to publication, you can go to my blog Nitz Bits and go to the SUSPECT category.) But I did set a few scenes at a winery. Since I didn’t need to go backstage, I didn’t have to worry about fermentation.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But my good friend Jeanie Ransom had spent time as a writer for a bed and breakfast magazine. She let me borrow her clips to study up on the architecture, décor, and food. On one of her excursions, she stayed at a bed-and-breakfast that hosted a mystery weekend. Well, that triggered memories of a mystery dinner that I’d attended. So that’s what brought about the play-within-a-play structure of SUSPECT.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So now, how about assembling the cast? As I came up with the reasons for why there would either be a body or a disappearance, I wound up constructing a fairly tangled family tree. And yes, I paid for that down the road as I desperately tried to show how everyone was related to each other. But all of the motives, not to mention the extreme awkwardness of my main character’s attraction to her “uncousin”, grew up and out of those tangled branches. I knew—or at least had a pretty good idea—of what happened fourteen years before Page 1. I didn’t have all the details. I think it is important to let characters interact and talk to each other. I still didn’t have a full plot even though I had done quite a bit of plotting, but I had many of the ingredients laid out on the counter.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So that’s how I wound up taking the initial idea of a body in an interesting location into the beginnings of a story. I knew who did what to whom and why. And since I wasn’t one for extensive outlining at that time, that’s when I started writing. Right now, I feel like saying, "Don't try this at home!" But every project varies.

Claudette: I've wondered about how mysteries are fairing in the industry trends. Are the number of mysteries, including suspense thrillers, becoming more popular in both children's and adult markets? If so, why do you think that is?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Alas, I can't quite speak to publishing trends in general. I've always written what I've wanted to write, which is why I have a lower middle grade contemporary fantasy, a upper middle grade sports novel and a YA mystery to my credit. Three genres. Three age levels.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But here's something that I can say. Last spring, I was at a writers' retreat that was organized by my agent.* Part of the event was a chance to sit down with her for a one-on-one on career planning and current projects. She suggested that I consider trying my hand at another YA once I finished work on my fantasy. I confessed that I didn't have any ideas for YA at the moment. But then I realized that I did have the germ of a story, but I hadn't thought about pursuing it. A lot of YA is edgy, and I felt more comfortable in the middle grades. But for this Elizabeth Peters homage, I really did need a character who could drive and interact with adults as a near equal. So I found myself telling her that I had an idea for something like the Da Vinci Code without the albino. Well, I quickly backtracked. There's no symbology in my novel either. But I did have a high school student on a European tour with a group from her history class who wound up with some historically important items when visiting a distant relative.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So the point of that rather long answer is that there is clearly room in the market for mysteries and suspense thrillers or my agent wouldn't have recommended my Italian chase novel as my next project.

Claudette: Thanks so much, Kristin. Any suspense I weave into stories is usually of the accidental variety. I'll have to think on how to do it deliberately now.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: It really is important to weave tension into any kind of book. The tension can arise from problems in school or with relationships. In fact, I've seen more than one graph illustrating the "rising tension" as the book moves toward its climax.

Jan Fields: Now I know scenes and scene building are essential to any story -- can you talk a bit about that?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I'll start with a few things to think about in general tonight and get more specific with mysteries tomorrow.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Back in 1999 I was lucky enough to be mentored to by Gary L. Blackwood, author of the Shakespeare Stealer books. Here's one thing that he wrote that I took seriously: "There's no room for dead wood in a novel. Everything has to contribute to setting, character, or plot."

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Now any good thing can be taken to an extreme. Here was one reviewer's reaction to SUSPECT: Suspect is a short book at under 230 pages, but not a page is wasted. The author draws the reader right into story and starts the action immediately. There’s no dry backstory here as background details are nicely woven into the body of the tale as it proceeds. Everyone is a suspect, even the grandmother, and the reader is drawn into looking for clues in each character’s actions and motives...The story is sharp and lean; the writing is tight and focused.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But then there were a few bloggers who felt that another 30 to 50 pages would have been a good thing.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: And frankly, as long as you're developing your character, you can take the readers down some interesting paths But they must feel that the story is moving forward. If it all turns into 'Much Ado About Nothing' without the clever Shakespearean dialogue, you've got a problem.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: And then give thought to those sections that you tend to skip as a reader. You don't want the reader to get bored, jump over a key clue and then feel cheated. Everyone says that you should write what you want to read. That's true both on the macro level of picking projects and on micro level of picking the words, phrases and sentences for the building blocks of your scenes.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Every writer is different, but here is how I tend to build scenes:

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 1. I spend quite a bit of time meditating on them before I sit down to write. Of course, if my characters start spouting great dialogue during this part of the process, I'll find a way to write it down. But I'll usually have a good idea of what needs to happen during the scene and how to make things worse for my character. I'll also have an idea about the clues, red herrings and discussions/internal monologues on what motivation a specific character might have had to do something very bad.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 2. Once I do sit down, I like writing by hand with Nataie Goldberg's cafe writing as a model. A short summary of this process is on my website, but check out the book writing down the bones. I usually bury myself in a scene and really FEEL what my charater feels. Often I just write the dialogue and include a few scraps of action or dialogue.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: 3. When I put the bones of the scene into my computer, I'll often add more action and sensory detail. I'll correct any mistakes in punctuation.

4. Then I keep combing through the scene to improve it and make sure that the clues and red herrings feel like their part of Jen's life instead of things dropped in by the heavy hand of the author. I keep adding in sensory details that share smell and texture. (This is why I really demand a solid Assignment 3 and 5A from my Institute students.)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: This technique works for me, but I think it's one reason why I can't do NaNoWriMo. I'm not confident about what really happened in a scene until it's reached a semi-polished draft. There's no sense in making it too polished in the first draft though. Then it's harder to untie your words and drop in essential information.

Chippy: Are all mysteries "Who done it?" type stories, or are there other types too?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I would say that most mysteries do fall into the Whodunnit category for longer works. There is probably a small subset of mysteries that feature a hunt for a lost, valuable object. But to raise the stakes, there will often be other seekers of that treasure who are wiling to go pretty far in order to secure it. But for short stories, I think there can be a "What's really going on?" sort of mystery. The clues might point in one direction until the search for truth or flash of inspiration provides the answer.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: When there's a mysterious element to a standard plot, I think it often falls into the "What's really going on?" or "What really happened?" category. It wouldn't surprise me if there are names. But everything I ever learned about writing mysteries came from reading them.

Okami: How have you worked with editors after selling your book or story?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Every situation is different. So I'll share my opinons and perspecitves. Results may vary. And frankly my stories vary from book to book.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Yes. You have to make your book as wonderful as possible before it goes out to the editor But here are some things to think about. Darcy Pattison has asserted that we have two books when we finish a project: the one on the page and the one in our heads. They key is to bring them into congruence.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: How can you do that? I cannot stress the value of critique groups enough. I have two local critique groups and three that "meet" on-line. I also have individuals who trade manuscripts with me. These people point out spots that are confusing not to mention issues with motivation and believabiity. One group started in 1997. That makes us dinosaurs in the digital world. Our membership has shifted through the years. I've written about the structure of this group on my website. The rotation has worked for us. I have two other groups that evaluate entire projects.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: It takes time to build up trust with a group. Not every group works out. But I am thankful for the ones I'm in.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Once I think that I have all of the bugs worked out, I read every word out loud. If I make a lot of fixes during this project, I'll go back and read it out loud again. Your ears and lips will help you catch what your eyes would skim right over.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: My first novel, DEFENDING IRENE, which features a girl playing on a boys' Italian soccer team, has an unusual submission history. Peachtree was thinking about starting a girls' sports series to match their very successful boys series. They read two of my as yet still unpublished novels and asked me to pitch other ideas. Eventually, an editor called me to let me know that they had decided against starting a series and ddn't think they could successfully publish my books as a stand alone. She assured me that if I had an audience out there waiting for my next book that "these would be ready to go." It was a wonderful compliment and a knife to the heart at the same time. What more could I do than write well? I found out when she asked about the status of my soccer novel. I told her I was eight chapters into it. She said, "Why don't you send them along?"

Kristin Wolden Nitz: That was a stunner. After all, editors don't look at unfinished manuscripts by new authors. After cleaning up the manuscript by running it through my critique group and reading it out loud, I put it in the mail and received an editorial letter with suggestion of things that she'd like to see.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: After they bought the book, I eventually received a two page revision letter. The changes looked easy. I made them and that was that.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: My experience with SAVING THE GRIFFIN was quite different. I wrote an extensive play by play about this experience at http://www.darcypattison.com/authors/revising-the-griffin/

Kristin Wolden Nitz: When Lisa Mathews told me that Peachtree was ready to acquire SUSPECT, she warned me that it would need a lot of revisions. They didn't need to ask for them before going to contract because they knew that I could revise to fit my editor's wishes. I actually had to insert a new character. Doing this so that it felt seamless was a huge challenge. No one has said that the character feels like an afterthought, so I think that I did it.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I also adjusted various scenes for tone and the distribution of red herrings and clues.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Do you remember those commercials with a voiceover saying, "We don't write the music; we make it sound better."? Well, that's how I feel about my editor Lisa. She didn't write my books; she made them better through her insights into story. In fact, she came up with a downright evil suggestion for DEFENDING IRENE that fit perfectly with who my antagonist was. I'm really sad to report that Lisa won't be with Peachtree after the first of the year although she may continue to work with some of her old writers. I'm hoping so. She has started up an editorial service that could be found online.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: And finally, I'll talk about my current work in progress that's almost done. My agent submitted it to about five or six editors. The feedback was similar from all of them, so I embarked on a revision to address the problems. Both my agent and I felt like it was worth pursuing. Since editors want agents to send certain kinds of manuscripts their way, they are better about giving feedback to agents than to individuals. If you do get even a short note from an editor, you are being nurtured. They don't have time to do this unless they believe you've demonstrated some potential.

Okami: It's not revision itself that annoys me, it's simply not knowing how to revise something people keep pointing out as a problem, and you've tried everything you know. That's normal, right?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I confessed earlier that I wrote the first draft of SUSPECT back in 1998. Let me share just a bit more about my background. The seventh novel that I completed was the first one that I sold. The sixth novel that I completed is the second one that I sold. SUSPECT was the fourth novel that I completed. Of course, each book was finished more than once before it sold with the exception of DEFENDING IRENE.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Jane Yolen, author of more than three hundred books, once said the following: "Bone-headed stubbornness pays." I wasn't sure whether I was talented, but I knew that I could be boneheaded.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Books can be your best teachers. Study the ones you love and see how your favorite authors handle things. I keep THE PERILOUS GARD on my desk for when I'm not sure how to handle an opening, a transition and so on.

ColoradoKate: I've just realized the novel I'm querying has a big mystery component, in terms of figuring something out. It doesn't have any kind of, well, perpetrator, though. But would the word "mystery" be a nice, eye-catching addition to my query letter, somewhere?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Mystery or mysterious. Then there are words like discover, suspense and tension.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: As I've mentioned before, you'll find an element of mystery in so many different kinds of fiction.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: FANTASY:
Naturally, HARRY POTTER ought to leap to mind. Harry, Ron and Hermione searched for clues in order to find the sorceror's stone in the first book. And don't forget all of the Snape red herrings scattered throughout the book. Susan Cooper's DARK IS RISING sequence was definiitely a contemporary Arthurian fantasy. (Since it's set in the 70's, it now reads like historical fictiion.) The various main characters were trying to recover various important treasures through following prophecies and using their wits. Megan Whalen Turner has a deceptive narrator in Gen. Reades willl be waiting to find out what HE wants even though every thought seems to flow smoothly to the reader. Here's my standard recommendation for the Attolia books. Read them in order without looking at reviews or even flap copy:
THE THIEF
QUEEN OF ATTOLIA
KING OF ATTOLIA
CONSPIRACY OF KINGS

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Oddly enough, Peachtree decided to send my contemporary fantasy SAVING THE GRIFFIN into the Edgars for consideration. I really didn't think that I'd make it through the final cut, and I didn't. But my characters did have mystery to solve: Where did the griffin belong? She thought various options through just as any amateur detective might. She even conducted an interrogation. SCIENCE FICTION:
So many of the great SF novels have an enormous component of mystery. You can find them in the old classics of Asimov, Heinlein, Poul Anderson and Larry Niven as well as in the newer oooks by Lois McMaster Bujold and Connie Willis.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: ROMANCE -- The mystery in romance is often,"Does (s)he like me?" Clues and red herrings abound, Signals can be interpreted; motivations, questioned.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: ACTION/ADVENTURE/SUSPENSE -- This category can often be thought of a mystery with chase scenes. I'm afraid that my brain is failing me on contemporary fiction. One of the resons, I'm sure, is that I spend much more time reading genre fiction. So there you have it.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Cheryl Klein, an editor at Arthur Levine, has said that there are three general kinds of plots:
CONFLICT
MYSTERY
LACK (Character needs something to feel complete.)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But then she went on to note that the strongest plots combine all three elements even if one tends to be the strongest. So reading and writing mysteries can really help you in writing in other genres. I don't always pick the right solution when I read, but since I've had to work so hard on plantng the clues that whisper, I'm much better at recognizing them when I see them.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: The title of this workshop is Plotting Mysteries. So I guess this is where I'll share a bit on the process. In the topic thread on pursuing ideas, I talked about character sketches, developing the setting, and the importance of knowing exactly what happened.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: As I mentioned, I did write the first draft of this novel back in 1998. So I went back to my old notebooks to see what was in them. (I love hardcover blank books and have about 12 or 13 filled with various projects.) I found my character sketches. The explanation of what happened wound up being right next to my character sketch of the perpetrator of the disappearance/murder. I also had pages dedicated to the tricks played and the tracking of alibis. I knew which clues and red herrings needed to be dropped into the text and preliminary ideas for where they belonged.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: My outline was pretty bare bones. I didn't write much under the headings of Chapters 1, 2 and 3 because they were written. (I personally like writing about three chapters to meet my characters the way a reader would before trying to sharpen them up or hem them in.) For Chapters 4, 5 and 6, I wrote a few sentences and fragments of sentences about the major scene that would take place. Next, I found two blank pages. I turned ast them to find a new numbering scheme. The last chapter, located at the bottom of the lefthand page, was labeled Chapter End. Then I moved my way up and back with the labels of E-1, E-2 and E-3. (That's the engineer in me coming out with a formula.)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So I tend to think of the initial plotting of a novel as planning a trip except that I'm putting together my own roadmap and guidebook through a combination of research and meditation while mowing the lawn. The scenes that I envision are like the towns where a tourist might plan on staying for awhile. The roads and trails can be swift transitions going seventy miles an hour, or they could be places where the character gets out and walks for awhile.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Since I am an engineer by degree, I don't like to get too mystical about the writing process. But I always feel that I don't know what really happens in one of my novels until it's down there on the page. If your characters reveal something extremely cool to you while you're writing, it just makes sense to take that sidetrip. I didn't know, for example, that the father of the uncousin in SUSPECT would start sleep-walking until Jen looked her step-uncle in the eye after a series of revelations and saw how upset he was. I didn't know exactly how the murder/disappearance was accomplished until I was in the middle of a rather dynamic and dramatic scene. Then it hit me. Ooh, I thought. Good one.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Some people like detailed outlines. Instead of writing a few sentences per chapter, they'll write a few paragraphs. But I encourage these organized individuals to leave room for explorng the corners.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: At one point in NAKED ONCE MORE (referenced in ideas thread) Jacqueline Kirby is reflecting on Kathleen Darcy's approach to writing novels. (Darcy is the missing author of a blockbuster novel. Jacqueline Kirby had been hired to write the sequel. Her disappearance is at the heart of the book.) Apparently, Kathleen would sit down at her typewriter every day without knowing what her characters would do that day. With that, Jacqueline sniffed. Her characters did exactly what she told them. So I have a feeling that Elizabeth Peters knew a lot of writers who took Kathleen's approach while she leaned much more toward Jacqueline's. But in an essay somewhere, Ms. Peters confessed that she had a motive and a backstory for one character and he absolutely refused to cooperate. Most writers will take an approach somewhere between Kathleen Darcy and Jacqueline Kirby when it comes to plotting.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: So what happens if you don't know the ending? At some point, you'll have to make a choice. My soccer novel set in Italy was a cool situation in search of a plot. I did have the framework of the soccer season. That helped. But I muddled through the middle until I came to a realization about standard endings and why my characters just wouldn't let me go there. Stories are typically about growth and change, but not all characters involved will grow and change.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I also struggled with options in a manuscript that's a proposed companion book to SAVING THE GRIFFIN. (My publishing house still hasn't made a decision.) Instead of a rather cuddly but potentially dangerous griffin in Itay, I have a extremely uncuddly scarab in modern Egypt. And what exactly is a scarab ask those of you who aren't fans of the Amelia Peabody series. Well, they're dung beetles. While my scarab book falls squarely into the contemporary fantasy category, there is the mystery of what this scarab, which appears to be made of lapis lazuli until it move, wants. Is it friendly or does it have a dark purpose? I had to make a firm decision before moving on.

Fancy: I love mysteries, and I've been toying with an idea for awhile, but couldn't figure out how to get started. I've always heard mysteries were "too hard" to write well. Thank you so much, for the notes and especially for for all the reading recommendations.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I think one of the reasons that there aren't many YA mysteries out there is the perception that they can be hard to write. But readers and editors welcome them.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I meant to include at some point a formula that I have for one of my school visits: Character + Conflict = Story

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But in the opening minutes I note that the math is wrong. It's closer to Character X Conflict = Story

Kristin Wolden Nitz: But I always worry that the X will look like the letter insted of the mathematical symbol. Why is this? If you have fascinating, well-developed characters who aren't struggling to achieve a goal, overcome an obstacle or come to a new understanding, you don't have any conflict. Zero multiplied by anything is zero.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: How about an action-packed story with flat characters? Well, with enough special effects, you might have a movie blockbuster on your hands, but you dont really have a story either.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: The above equation is really too simplistic as well. You need to have some really messy integral from Calculus to better reflect the relationship.

Pippi: Actually this equation (Character X Conflict) makes a lot of sense - character and conflict feed off of each other and grow exponentially (oh so maybe you do need that integral somewhere!)

Kristin Wolden Nitz: I know. You and I could get into how conflict acts upon character. So we've got all these different forces acting on a block of wood....

Okami: I made my first efforts last year to query agents with my middle grade novel, and it didn't go well. After working with my group and making more changes, I've started querying again. But I'm concerned what I'll do when I've run out of appropriate agents to query.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: My agent indicated that she's more likely to take on someone who has finished at least two or three projects. Then you've served an apprenticeship. Of course there are people like Megan Whalen Turner and Claire Dunkle who sold their first novel to the first editor they queried. I sold two novels on my own before getting an agent. So sometimes, you just need to get going on that second book. You'll often learn things that will help your sell the first one. You never know what's going to hit with an editor, but it sounds like you're doing the right thing by reading the books from various houses before submitting.

Anita: How many clues, red herrings, and suspects should be in a MG mystery?

Kristin Wolden Nitz: It depends. How's that for a vague answer? But THE WESTING GAME, THE MYSTERIOUS BENEDICT SOCIETY and CHASING VERMEER are three extremely complex novels. Clues and misdirection abound.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: If we go back to HARRY POTTER AND THE SORCEROR'S STONE, you know that Harry, Ron and Hermione were fixated on Snape to the exclusion of almost everyone else. That's why the true identity of the perp was such a surprise to them. So you could just have the one person. In SUSPECT, my character had five or six possibilities, but she focussed her energies and worries on three or four, all the while hoping that Grandma Kay's theory about the disappearance of Jen's mom was all wrong.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: Clues and red herrings also come from basic character development. I don't want to explain what I did in my mystery because then you'll be able to guess what happened. And sometimes you can come to the conclusion that a person is innocent due to a bit of misdirection only to discover that person did it after all.

Jan Fields: Thanks for the time and energy you've put in for these three days. We're definitely richer for it. You're terrific.

Kristin Wolden Nitz: A pleasure!