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Transcripts

"How to Write the Story of a Life" with Barbara Kramer.

Thursday, December 12, 2002

Mel is Mel Boring, moderator, and web editor of the ICL site.

Barb is Barbara Kramer, a busy young-readers’ biographer from Cedar Rapids, Iowa. She is also a writing instructor and a teacher at conferences. She has written biographies about Alice Walker, Amy Tan, John Glenn, Madeleine Albright, Neil Armstrong, Ron Howard, Sally Ride, Tipper Gore, Tom Hanks and Toni Morrison. Barb’s latest book is George Washington Carver: Scientist and Inventor, published in 2002 by Enslow Publishers <http://www.enslow.com/htmlnasp.asp?file=homepagehtml.html>.

Pink is to show question-askers.

Mel: GOOD EVENING to you all this December 12! I'm glad you came, and I know you will be rewarded with the riches of biography writing with Barb Kramer. We will be picking her great biographical brains for valuable nuggets about how to write biographies for young readers. Barb's latest is about George Washington Carver. THANKS for coming, and WELCOME to the ICL Chat Room, Barb!

Barb: Thanks. I'm glad to be here. I've been looking forward to this.

Mel: Barb, tell us first, if you remember, about the FIRST piece of writing you ever did.

Barb: The first that I can remember is writing for our school paper during my last two years of high school.

Mel: So you started out as a journalist? (-:} How did you officially get started writing for children?

Barb: I got interested in writing for children after my own two children were born.

Mel: Then from writing for children, how did you eventually "bridge" to biography?

Barb: I attended a week-long writer's workshop and the instructor for the writing-for-children section was James Cross Giblin. The manuscript I submitted to him to critique was for a collective biography I wanted to write. Jim Giblin suggested a publisher that I could send it to. The publisher did not want that manuscript, but they asked me if I would be interested in writing for one of their existing series and they sent me a catalog. They had some biography series that interested me and the rest, as they say, is herstory.

Mel: How did you FIRST get interested in writing biographies?

Barb: That came with some good advice another writer once gave me: Write what you like to read. I grew up reading biographies about people such as Davy Crocket, Daniel Boone, and Elizabeth Blackwell. I still enjoy reading about people, so writing biographies was a natural progression.

Mel: What does it mean to "tell the story of a life"?

Barb: Let me answer that backwards by first saying that what a biography SHOULDN'T be is just a collection of facts and dates. All of that information needs to be there, of course, but that's just the skeleton. Then you add the "meat"--information that makes the person you are writing about come alive for readers.

oma: Do you choose your subject or is it assigned?

Barb: I choose the subject. Sometimes I choose from a list the publisher gives me, but sometimes I submit a proposal for a biography about someone that interests me and if the publisher likes it, they give me the go-ahead.

kimf: What exactly do you mean by a "collective biography"?

Barb: A collective biography is a book with several short biographies. For example, there may be ten chapters and each chapter is about a different person.

Mel: How do you make nonfiction, in general, come alive?

Barb: By using the same techniques that you would use to make fiction more interesting. That includes "hooking" the reader, building a scene, "show, don't tell," and using strong action verbs.

Mel: Looking at the first of those techniques, how do you grab the reader’s attention in a biography?

Barb: Something that is used quite often is to start with an exciting event, or a high point in the person's life. Usually that's something related to why the person is famous or worthy of a biography. For example, when I was writing about astronaut John Glenn, <http://www.enslow.com/displayitem.asp?type=1&item=462>

the "hook" was the launch of Friendship 7 in 1962. That was certainly a highlight in his life. Also, the excitement of a space launch is interesting to children.

Mel: What else can you do to "hook" readers?

Barb: You might grab their attention with an interesting or little-known fact about your subject. Or some writers ask a question. I love the way Jean Fritz started her biography about Theordore Roosevelt--"What did Theodore Roosevelt want to do? Everything. And all at once if possible." That question and answer made me want to read on to find out more about Roosevelt.

Mel: I've heard advice that the "hook" should be something that happened during the biographed person's CHILDhood. Is that a good idea?

Barb: That kind of depends on the what the publisher likes. Some publishers like to start with the person's childhood. My hooks have always been an event that happened when the subject was an adult. Then I go back and start with the person's childhood.

Mel: Barb, do you think that Jean Fritz's would be the BEST biographies to read in order to learn how to write biography?

Barb: She's certainly one of the best. I also like biographies written by James Cross Giblin. Usually I could think of a whole list of writers to recommend, but right now, I'm drawing a blank.

spudsie: What is your primary research source for a biography?

Barb: That's a hard questions to answer, spudsie, because I use a lot of sources and I can't say that any one is the most important I do like to start with general sources which would include other books about the subjects, encyclopedias, etc. If I'm writing about someone current, two general sources are Current Biography and Biography Today. These publications have short biographies about people in the news. Biography Today is written specifically for the young adult market and has biographies of interest to readers in that age group. These two publications list their sources and I look up the sources they used. I do the same with previous books about a subject. Hopefully, those books have a bibliography and then I look up that author's sources.

bettyboop: I read a lot of biographies--what different measures would you take in writing someone else's biography as opposed to writing your own? Just the interviewing?

Barb: If I understand your questions correctly, I think you're asking how I can make my biography about a person different from other biographies written by other authors about that same person. One thing I do is to look up the original sources that other authors have used. That is because I might pull different information from that source. Something that I think is important may not have mattered to another author.

jim: Do you prefer contemporary or historical subjects? What are the pitfalls in each?

Barb: I like writing both. One pitfall of writing about contemporary subjects is that their life is still changing, it makes it hard to know how to end the book. Also the book may become "dated" sooner. With historical subjects, I think it's harder to find the information you need.

Mel: Earlier you mentioned building a scene. What do you mean by that?

Barb: Using specific details to make readers feel that they are right there with the main character, which in a biography is the subject of your book. Going back to the John Glenn book, I used details such as the way the wind made the rocket sway on the launchpad to help readers visualize what it was like for Glenn inside the small space capsule as the countdown began. Later, I used details that would help readers know what he was seeing and hearing as he orbited Earth.

Mel: Do you need to stick with facts, or can you set a scene the way it might have looked?

Barb: You need to stick with the facts. That means that the process actually begins with research. As you're doing your research, look for particular details that will make readers feel that they are right there in the story.

Mel: Don't all those details take up a lot of space when word counts are already so limited?

Barb: They do and too much detail can also bog down your story. The key is to pick a few scenes that are important to your story and build on them with details.

walkinggrl: What ages do you target?

Barb: Most of my books have been for young adult readers, but I'm starting to write some books for younger readers.

walkinggrl: Could you do biographies for 3-4 yr olds?

Barb: I think there would be an interest in biographies for that age group. I haven't tried writing anything for children that age, but I think it would be fun.

mbvoelker: You mentioned using fiction techniques. What specific techniques are most useful in bringing a real person to life the way a fiction writer makes his/her characters live, breathe, and seem to step off the page into a reader's imagination?

Barb: Let's see, we've talked about "hooking" the reader and building a scene. Another technique to keep in mind in making a character step off the pages is "show, don't tell." There are a couple of ways to "show, don't tell" in nonfiction. One is to use anecdotes. For example, instead of just TELLING readers that the subject of your biography was kind, find an anecdote that SHOWS your subject doing some kindness. Here again, this starts with research. Look for stories behind the facts.

silverdove: Is there a favorite web site you use to research some of your information?

Barb: One of the first sites I like to check for biographies is biography.com (http://www.biography.com). I also like to use sites from Gale Research (http://www.bcr.org/index.html) because very often they include their sources and then I can look up the sources they used.

Mel: How do you decide which scenes--which you talked about before--are important?

Barb: The most obvious choices are high points in the person's life, because they are exciting and it's fun for young readers to read about them. But low points in a person's life are also important in telling the story. It's good for kids to see how your subject handled adversity and those scenes are usually a great opportunity to show more of your subject's character. Reading about the ups and downs in your subject's life gets readers emotionally involved as they share in those experiences. I also look for turning points in a person's life and build on those scenes to show how events can change the course of a life.

spudsie: Would people in a collective biography be interrelated?

Barb: Yes. There is usually a theme for the book. For example, one of my collectives was about women who achieved firsts in their fields.

walkinggrl: Do bios of less famous but very interesting people work?

Barb: Publishers usually want books about subjects that appeal to a large group of people because that increases sales. But I certainly wouldn't rule out doing a book about a less famous, but interesting person. With the right angle, you could make a less famous person appealing to a lot of people.

bettyboop: Have you ever had a subject that was particularly hard to interview? Can you give any details of why it was a hard interview to do?

Barb: That's an interesting question because I've never interviewed any of the people I've written about. It's not because I haven't tried. When I'm writing about current people, I do contact them and let them know that I'm writing a book about them and ask if I can interview them by phone, mail, or email. But none of them have agreed to an interview. I'm sure that part of the reason is because they just get so many requests for their time. However, sometimes their assistant, or the person in charge of publicity, is helpful in providing information. That person will ask the subject a question for me and get back with the answer.

bettyboop: If you did interview a subject, would you try to get stories out of them rather than just yes/no answers to specific questions? For children, wouldn't they want to know more about the childhood of the person so they can better relate to them?

Barb: Yes, I would want to get stories and especially a couple of stories about the person's childhood. That's because that would be information that hasn't already been used by other biographers.

silverdove: How do you get diaries of your subjects to use for research?

Barb: Information like that would usually be available through an archive. Some archives have put some information like that on line, but in most cases, you would probably have to travel to the archives to use them. Or sometimes, especially with an historical person, their diary may have been published.

jim: Can you write dialogue based on the historical subject's speeches or writings?

Barb: I've used quotes from historical subjects’ speeches or writings.

Mel: Barb, do you ever make up dialogue for the people in your biographies?

Barb: No. That was something that was done in the biographies I read when I was growing up, but publishers shy away from that now. There are some publishers who do allow made-up dialogue and they are classified in libraries as nonfiction but I really think they are fictionalized biographies.

Mel: Earlier you said there are a couple of ways to "show, don't tell," Barb, but we interrupted you after you’d given us one. What is the other way?

Barb: The other way is using quotes. There are times where I work and work on a paragraph trying to TELL how a subject felt or thought, but it never quite comes together. Eventually I discover that I can SHOW it much better by letting the subject say it in his or her own words. An example is the opening chapter of my biography about George Washington Carver. <http://www.enslow.com/displayitem.asp?type=1&item=1214>

I could have done a lot of explaining about the prejudice he faced when he was addressing the Ways and Means Committee of the House of Representatives, but it was easier and more effective to use a quote. Carver had joked with a newspaper reporter about how surprised the representatives were to see that he was African-American, and I was able to use that quote.

Mel: Do you recommend using a lot of quotes or not too many?

Barb: I never think about the number of quotes. I put a lot of effort into finding quotes, but I never use them all. If I find I'm doing a lot of explaining or having trouble finding the right words, I look at how my subject said it. Usually, I find my work is already done for me because that person has said it so much better. I also use quotes to emphasize a point. I might write something in my own words and use a quote to expand on that point. I should mention that in some cases publishers may ask you not to use quotes, and of course, you have to work within their guidelines.

Mel: Why wouldn't publishers want quotes?

Barb: Some say that it's too coonfusing for younger readers, and by younger readers I'm talking about third or fourth grade on down. But I have seen books in series for readers older than those grades that don't use quotes. I don't know why. I guess that's just an editorial decision.

Mel: How do you find quotes?

Barb: There are a variety of ways. You might find quotes in previously published interviews with your subjects in magazines or newspapers. You can also find quotes in things written by your subject such as letters, essays, or an autobiography.

lizr: Did you propose the book you wrote for Enslow about Hershey, or any of the others you wrote for them?

Barb: Hershey was included in my collective biographies, "Founders of Famous Food Companies," and that was a book I proposed. Other books that I've proposed to Enslow were biographies about Tom Hanks and gospel singer Mahalia Jackson. The Mahalia Jackson book is coming out next year.

lizr: Writing a short (1,000-word) biography, do you query first?

Barb: I usually query first for nonfiction even if it's short. But I don't think it would be a problem to go ahead and send the whole piece for something that short.

Mel: Barb, I'm sure that with a person like Tom Hanks, it would be impossible to get to them for an interview. Did you try with him, or just figure you couldn't?

Barb: I tried, and usually for a person that famous, I contact the person's agent. I never even got a reply to that letter.

bettyboop: Has anyone ever requested that their bio not be written, for instance, if it is a fairly new person in the public eye and nobody has done a previous bio on them?

Barb: That's a very good question and it can be tricky. If a person is quite famous, anyone can write about them but for regular people, you would probably need to have their permission to write their story. I haven't had to have permission to write about any of the people I've written about.

spudsie: Do you reveal your excitement for the subject with readers?

Barb: I hope so, in that I hope I'm making the subject come alive for readers, but I'm very careful not to let my personal feelings about a subject slip into the book.

Mel: You've mentioned the importance of research several times. Where do you start when you're researching a biography?

Barb: I start with general sources such as previous biographies about that subject. I use those sources to get a timeline of events in the person's life. Then I look up the sources that the previous biographer used.

lizr: Do you include a bibliography in your cover letter/query? Or with the manuscript? Or how/when do you send a bibliography?

Barb: I don't include it with the query letter. If the publisher wants to see a proposal, which is usually one chapter and an outline, I include the bibliography with that. I usually add to that bibliography when I do further research in writing the rest of the book, so I send another bibliography with the manuscript.

kplano: I want to write STORIES for my future grandchildren using my parents and my grandparents as the main characters. I plan to tell their childhood stories to preserve them for posterity. Could you comment, please?

Barb: I think that would be a great idea, something your grandchildren would cherish.

jim: Regarding biographies for three- to eight-year-olds. When I was that young, I learned my history from the POV of a mouse who lived in the famous person's waistcoat pocket. Any comment?

Barb: There is a biography for middle graders about Benjamin Franklin that uses that technique. I can't think of the title. So it is still being done, but it's one of those things that has to be done just right, and then find just the right publisher, so it would be harder to get it published.

Mel: I was thinking when you were answering that "mouse question," Barb, that I'd like to have been that mouse! (-:} Was the title of that book BEN AND ME?

Barb: Yes. It would sure make the research easier if a biographer was that mouse. ;-)

lizr: Does the agent of a famous celebrity send some stock info about the celeb?

Barb: The agents I've contacted haven't, but I wish they would.

Mel: Another questioner asks why you look up the sources in the reference books you mentioned and those of previous books about the subject, when you already have that information in the general source, as you mentioned earlier.

Barb: Because I don't want to use another author's interpretation of my subject. Also, looking up the original sources gives the most complete picture of the subject.

mbvoelker: I thought that the writer's personal excitement about a topic was a critical element in nonfiction. Why do you want to keep your feelings hidden when writing your biographies?

Barb: The publishers that I've worked with want the biographies to be objective, which means that they don't want my feelings to show through.

silverdove: Barb, do you use an agent to help with your publishing contracts?

Barb: No, I haven't, but that's always an ongoing debate going on in my head wondering if I would get better contracts if I had an agent. I guess I haven't tried to get an agent so far because I've been able to stay busy as a writer on my own. Also the publishers I've worked with seem to have boiler-plate contracts so there isn't a lot of bargaining going on.

Mel: What if you're using a biography about a subject as a general source and the bibliography includes letters or other information that is available through a university or museum archive that is not close to where you live and you can't afford to travel there?

Barb: One thing that I've done is to contact the archives and ask if they would send photocopies of specific materials. Of course, they will charge you for the photocopies and may also charge you an hourly research fee. For that reason, you might want to limit the amount of information you get from them. If you can't get that information, you might just want to go ahead and use the information from the general source. I make every effort to track down original sources, but sometimes, it's just not possible.

Mel: What if you've looked up these sources and you're still not finding quotes or the anecdotes you need to make your biography come alive?

Barb: Then you have to get creative. Start looking at your subject from a different point of view. Actually, this is something that did happen to me recently when I was researching a biography about Mahalia Jackson. I had a lot of good quotes and anecdotes, but I didn't have anything new that hadn't been published in other biographies about her. I always like to include new information so I was getting a little nervous about how I was going to do that. I decided to look at the people who had been close to her. One of those people was Studs Terkel, who had interviewed her several times on his radio show. Both Terkel and Jackson lived in Chicago and had become close friends over the years. So I researched Terkel, and found a tape of one of his interviews with Jackson. Terkel is also an author and had written about some of his experiences with Jackson. Those sources gave me the new information I wanted.

lizr: Do the archives charge for photos? Are you given a photo research budget? Or is it taken out of your advance?

Barb: Some archives will let you use a photo for the cost of printing. Others charge a fee that can range from a small amount to a couple hundred dollars. So it pays to do some shopping around for photos. I've had to pay for the photos out of my advance, but some publishers do give a photo allowance. From what I hear, it's usually not enough to cover the cost of all the photos, but it helps.

lizr: Great investigating, Barbara!

spudsie: How do you discover who a celebrity's agent is?

Barb: There is a book that gives that information. It's usually in the reference section of the library, but I can't think of the title. Also, if the person is listed in "Current Biography," the agent's information is given and sometimes I find the agent's name given in an article that I'm using in my research.

Mel: A book like the one you mentioned, Barb, is HOW TO FIND EVERYONE WHO'S ANYONE.

oma: Have you ever been a part of a critique group? If so, was it helpful?

Barb: Yes. In fact, I'm part of a critique group now. One thing that I like especially about being in a critique group is that other people will read something I've written and not quite understand what I wrote, so they'll ask questions. That helps me know where I need to give more information. Sometimes, something is so clear in my mind that I think people will just know what I meant. My critique group shows me that's not true.

Mel: Barb, THANK YOU for being here tonight! The two hours have passed like two minutes, talking about a very favorite topic, biographies. And thank YOU ALL for coming tonight! For those of us who’ve never written biographies, you've given us a good start toward that genre, Barb. We’re grateful to you for coming!

Barb: Thank you for having me and thank all of you for all the great questions.

Mel: Our next chat will be in the new year, 2003. On Thursday, January 9, Kristi Holl will be back with us, our first Guest Interview of the New Year 2003. She will be coming to us January 9 fresh from a freer freelance life, having joined a number of new critique groups and networking with other writers as never before. Check the announcement at the ICL web site soon for her topic at http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/rx/iclschat.shtml. Kristi will give us all a 2003 shot in the writer's arm to get us going in the new year, so please join us four weeks from tonight, same place here at the same time. THANKS again a million for coming tonight, Barb Kramer. Goodnight, and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all of you!

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