“The Picture Perfect Picture Book”

with Kim Norman

September 7-9, 2009

Jan: Welcome to "The Picture Perfect Picture Book." Plot, rhythm, language, pace, how do you balance the elements of great picture books? How can you tell if you've written one? Our guest, Kim Norman, is the author of CROCODADDY and JACK OF ALL TALES. Her upcoming picture books include I KNOW A WEE PIGGY WHO WALLOWED IN BROWN [Dutton, 2010] and TEN ON THE SLED [Sterling, 2010]. Aside from being a writer, Kim is also a mom, an artist, a gardener, a singer and an actress. She's also known for her rowdy school visits. To learn more about Kim, check out http://www.kimnormanbooks.com.

chippy: Welcome to the boards, Kim. It is a pleasure and a privilege to have you here with us. Thank you for taking the time to answer questions on picture books.

Kim: Thanks for the welcome. I think I'm going to have a good time here!

Pippi: As a new writer, I'm wondering if there are any themes that are overdone in the picture book market. Are there any themes that publishers see way too much of and want to avoid?

Kim: Excellent discussion question. Aside from writing and submitting a lot of books myself, I've also had the privilege of serving as the at-the-lecturn reader for several "First Pages" readings at SCBWI conferences. At a first-pages reading, we read aloud the first page (or so) of anonymously submitted works, then allow a panel of editors comment on whether they would continue reading at that point, including their reasons for that decision.

Kim: It's a popular conference presentation because it gives a snapshot of many editors reactions to many manuscripts. I've done it 3 or 4 times now, and I still continue to be surprised by the editors' responses. Sometimes they have said they'd keep reading when I KNOW I would have stopped; and sometimes -- when I thought a manuscript was quite good -- they have said they would stop reading. Which leads me to their reason for that: "It's well-written, but I've seen it a hundred times."

Kim: So here is what I have learned during those 1st pages readings, and as a conference judge myself:

Kim: 1. Color-themed books need to be handled carefully. I sold a color concept book to Dutton, I KNOW A WEE PIGGY WHO WALLOWED IN BROWN, but it was different from the overdone book the editors were complaining about: characters (usually girls) who are obsessed with a particular color. One editor specifically cited the popularity of the Pinkalicious books as the reason for seeing too many stories like that lately.

Kim: 2. Wise old fill-in-the-blank: This is my own, personal category that I've seen too many times as a conference judge. Basic scenario: young MC wanders out into the world, frequently stumbling over his own follies, (whatever they may be -- curiosity, dissatisfaction, selfishness, etc.) -- then, at the end, a wise old fill-in-the-blank creature (turtle, lion, eagle, frog -- for some reason, frogs are VERY popular!), steps in, gives a little lecture, and shows the MC the error of his/her ways. Blehh. It's the children's book equivalent of Deus ex Machina, a real no-no in modern children's literature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machine

Kim: 3. ABC books: I read & hear all the time that publishers are sick of ABC books, and yet I continue to see them released, so... go figure. I was in a large library last week where they had a whole shelf of ABC books. Some were older, but not all of them. So submit at your own risk, or maybe just find a different way to collect a series of ideas/images.

Kim: 4. Likewise bedtime stories. They say they're tired of them, (har har), but I keep seeing new ones. My agent has one in circulation myself, so let's hope the topic isn't dead!

Kim: 5. "Grandparent" books. This is another of my own personal peeves: stories that aren't really children's books. They're doting grandparent books which happen to have a few children in them. Stories like that simply need to be re-arranged to a more childlike point of view.

Kim: On the whole, I'd say there probably aren't any topics which haven't been done and done, again and again. The trick to a sale is more in the execution, and in finding just the right publisher for that particular book. Pinkalicious likely would not have been accepted by some publishers. But it hit just the right editor at just the right house.

Jan: Editorial Anonymous in her hysterical blog also added:
* inanimate object books (and she really meant "inanimate" -- where the blanket on the chair tells the reader all it's seen there).

Jan: * books about people's dogs -- apparently a lot of folks are writing about their dogs.

Jan: * squirrels...this is probably just a temporary rush. A few years back it was cats. I knew one editor who ranted (RANTED) about how much she hated cat books in a rejection letter about my picture book...um, my picture book didn't actually have a kitty in it. But I'm glad she got it out of her system.

Kim: Yes! I'm so glad you mentioned inanimate objects! Definitely! Also -- although this isn't a topic, just a story element -- avoid giving your characters alliterative names. (Sammy the Squirrel; Randy the Raccoon.") Editors think that's cheesy. It's a quick giveaway to them that you're new.

Kim: On the other hand, never say never, either. I have a friend who sold a book about talking punctuation marks to a well-known publisher -- AND she gave them alliterative names. So that was two no-nos at once, and yet she sold them the book AND a sequel. The first book (ALFIE, THE APOSTROPHE) is has done so well, it was recently released in paperback. Teachers love it.

Kim: BUT... she really REALLY knows her subject. She used to be a lawyer specializing in punctuation minutia. For the most part, I think it's good advice to avoid both of those potential pitfalls.

dell: Here's a couple more...I've heard that editors receive a lot of 'I love you' books and 'first day of school' books.

Jan: One more unexpected "frequent manuscript" is the death story -- parent dies, sibling dies, grandparent dies, kid is going to die -- and the book is focused on death and dealing with death.

mmmgood: The idea that the trick is in the execution is a repeated theme, and it's beginning to sink in. Two sides to a coin, I suppose: Execution, and the right publisher. Ms. Norman, do you have any tips on how to discern "execution?" In other words, how do I know if the third/fourth/fifth rejection is due to poor execution, or just not hitting on the right publisher yet?

Kim: Ah, that's a tough one. We all struggle with that: Do I leave it unchanged until it lands on the right desk, or will everyone reject it until I change it? It's such a balancing act. If you have a critique group, that will help a lot. I use my critique group as a sort of polling device. If 1 person objects to something, I look at it, but don't give it much weight, if it's a part I really like. If two object, I'll definitely give it more consideration. If three say something, it almost certainly needs reworking. I can't speak highly enough of how useful it is to have a critique group. And the longer you're together, the better it is, because you get to know each other styles.

Kim: And if one group doesn't work out, don't give up. Try another. I was lucky that both my groups have been a good fit, but I've head some people say they tried several before they found one that worked well. But I don't think I've every heard anyone who is published say they regretted the critique group experience, even if it wasn't smooth sailing all the way.

mmmgood: You say you've partcipated in two different groups, and have been pleased with both. How do you, personally, choose a group? Also, are these on-line, or do you physically get together?

Kim: I found both of my groups online. I think I found the first when someone put out a call for new members on the Yahoo Picturebook group. I think that group is now defunct. I stumbled into the second group when I made a fool of myself and replied to the FIRST group by accidentally posting my application to the whole Picturebook list. Boy, did I feel like a dope. But it worked out nicely. The first book did accept me, but someone who saw my application (it was just an email describing myself, my skills and my credits) and she wrote to me, too, saying she would like to invite me into her group as well.

Kim: I was so ignorant then, I didn't even know you can be in more than one group. But she kindly explained that many people are in more than one group, because they serve different purposes. Sometimes they're dictated by genre. My crit group buddy Sandy Alonzo is in my picture book group, but she also writes for older readers (she has a marvelous title coming out soon from Hyperion), so she is in a chapter book group, too.

Kim: I was in an inperson group for a while, which met in a library. But it was a bit of a drive for me to get there; ate up half a Saturday; so I didn't go very often, and after a while it sort of fizzled. And I do prefer the way an online group can give a more indepth critique since they have more time to respond, instead of just at a one-hour meeting.

Kim: One thing that's really important about a critique group: It's nice when they love your stuff, but you probably learn more when they DON'T love it. So be prepared to have a thick skin. You will get a lot more out of the experience that way. Everyone in my group is agreed that -- while there is never any reason for being mean -- we do NOT want anyone pulling their punches. If something we have written isn't working, we depend on our members to say so.

LadyLori: May I add my question to this one? If you are considering an on-line critique group, how do you know you can trust putting your work out into cyber space? Once it is posted, it's out there. What safeguards do you look for? (I'm a bit cautious by nature, and especially now as I had my identity stolen a few weeks ago. I don't want my stories stolen also!) I am part of an SCBWI critique group, but we meet only once a month. I would love to join an on-line group. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Kim: Oh Lori, I'm so sorry to hear that you're dealing with identify-theft! I know that can be such a nightmare to clear up!

Kim: Well, a few things make critique groups very different from an identity-theft situation. They're just totally different animals. I think I can safely say that there is almost no such thing as a person out trolling the internet looking for a story to steal from an unpublished writer. They'd be much more likely to pilfer from an already published story, tweaking it, hoping no one would notice the similarities. I'm not saying that it could NEVER happen, but it's just not a very productive way to conduct a criminal career.

Kim: One safeguard, if you could call it that, is that most people who are serious about writing begin to settle into a genre and style that works for them. So, even if you wrote something that others in your group liked, they probably wouldn't steal it simply because it's just not their sort of story. (Kind of like the various stories my mother, bless her, is always suggesting I write. If it doesn't come from my own heart, doesn't grab me, I'm not going to write it. It may be a cute duck story she found in her local paper, but it is someone else's story to write.)

Kim: I can't honestly say that I've NEVER heard of a story being... ahem... borrowed. Someone in one of my crit groups told me it happened to her. But that's the only story I've ever heard in 8 years. When you compare that to the benefits of a critique group and the vastly improved chances of being published if you are in a group, I just think the benefits outweigh the risks.

Kim: Look at it this way: When you get on a bike, even if you're wearing a helmet, there IS a possibility that you could be hurt or even killed riding that bike. But how many of us are afraid to ride bikes? We know the odds and are willing to risk it.

mmmgood: So, how does the online critique work? Are the critiques open to all members to see? In other words, would you as a member have access to the critiques of another member's piece? It seems that would be a good way to learn. Our own "Moving Pen Library" works sort of that way. I need to get off my patooty and participate in that as well. BTW, no problem with thick skin here. I get a bit frustrated with all glowing reviews on my work. I much prefer those who let me know where the flaws are, so I can consider and correct.

Kim: I feel that I have learned as much from doing critiques and reading the critiques of others as I have RECEIVING crits. My two groups function slightly differently, (different schedules, that sort of thing), but the basics are the same: post the story for the whole group to read, and all who can do a critique in as timely a fashion as possible. In one group, it's a sort of unwritten rule that you wait until all (or at least most) of the critiques trickle in before commenting back, as the author of the story being critiqued. And I don't mean we answer back with any sort of justification of why we did this or that. But often a critique will open up a question in the mind of the author, who might ask, "Did everyone understand that the queen was angry?" or whatever.

yaya: I never had benefit of any kind of critique group, until I joined the Writer's Retreat. I must say, this has helped me so much, both from a reader's and a writer's perspective. My own writing has improved, I think, because I have seen how others have responded to it and I have sensed how others have reacted to the words I say about their work.

Kim: Yes, that's so true, isn't it? And I've learned from reading members' critiques of other members' stories, as well as learning as I critique things myself. Maybe because it beats it into your head a little bit. You start to think, "Hmmm. Maybe I should start following my own advice!!"

Angie: I was wondering if you could help me find the beginning path to writing picture books. I have taken the course in writing magazine fiction and non-fiction pieces. How can I use this knowledge to start down the avenue of picture book writing? Can you recommend HOW TO BOOKS, or other courses, or anything to help me get started? I'm just positive there is so much I don't know about attempting to write a picture book that I really just don't know where to start.

Jan: Good question, Angie and I'm sure Kim will have good answers. I just wanted to mention a couple of my favorite books on the topic:
Picture Writing by Anastasia Suen (this covers several areas of children's writing but every bit is excellent)
How to Write and Sell Children's Picture Books by Jean Karl is consider iconic.
Writing with Pictures: How to Write and Illustrate Children's Books by Uri Shulevitz (also considered a "must have")

Kim: Before I recommend reference materials and organizations, here's the biggest bit of advice: read read read! Read every type of children's book you can get your hands on. (I've been known to check out a stack of children's books, stuff them in a canvas bag, then walk next door to the YMCA, hang the book on the bicycle handle and peddle away, happily flipping thru picture books. Even lost some weight that way!)

Kim: But seriously, reading will help you to narrow the type of book you'd like to write. You'll probably find that the type of book you enjoy reading will also be the type of book you're most naturally drawn to writing -- although not exclusively. Reading lots of books will hone your ear for sentence structure, vocabulary level, pacing, etc. A hint about picture books: read them aloud, to yourself even, if you don't have a small child handy. Since picture books are usually designed to be read aloud, reading them that way will tune your ear to picture book cadence.

Kim: Are you a member of the SCBWI? (Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators) They're at www.scbwi.org They have conferences, literature & a newsletter for their members that I've found invaluable -- as well as the contacts one makes eventually. I used a free download of theirs which helped me with contract language before I got my agent. Stuff like that is only available to members, but they've got other useful info on the site that non-members can peruse.

Kim: It was at an SCBWI conference that I met my first editor, who liked the manuscript I submitted. After a couple of revisions, she bought it. I'm told that's still relatively rare, but it does happen -- or, at least, you meet and begin to build a relationship with an editor who might buy ANOTHER of your manuscripts.

Kim: Depending on your region, SCBWI may also help members form critique groups, although I think the position of critique group coordinator is empty right now in the Mid-Atlantic region. I actually found my group online, not thru SCBWI, even though I was a member. I responded to a call on a Yahoo email list I'd been frequenting. Link to that, below.

Kim: The Yahoo children's writing (CW) chat list is a place you can ask people for advice about this or that. That's where I met Jan, I think! They don't critique, per se, but they can answer the occasional manuscript-specific question like, "Is it appropriate to shift Point of View in a toddler's picture book?" And they love to answer questions about writing & submitting. Not giving out specific information about their own editors or agents, (people tend to be rather close-to-the-vest about that), but help with wording queries, or what have you. There's a mix of published & unpublished folks on the list; newbies & more experienced. Many of the unpublished folks are still very knowledgeable, having been at this a while, just not having gotten that lucky break that has sold a book yet.

Kim: The CW list is huge, with several thousand subscribers, so you may want to request daily digest if you join. There can be a certain amount of off-topic chat, too. But it's the off-topic chat that seems to keep the list alive. Some other, more on-target lists have fallen by the wayside. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/childrens-writers/

Kim: Several books you might want to buy:
The Children's Writer's & Illustrator's Market, published by Writer's Digest Books
A new one comes out every year with listings of hundreds of children's book and magazine publishers, as well as advice articles. I think it's quite a good book. I don't buy one every year now, since I know more about the industry and the types of publishers I should approach with my manuscripts, but it's a great place to start. A little overwhelming at first, so you'll also want to poke around libraries and bookstores, observing books that are similar to the type you'd like to write. That will give you the name of publishers who do the sorts of books you're interested in.

Kim: Another book I found very helpful:
The Business of Writing for Children by Aaron Shepard
Short and to the point, still only 10 bucks on Amazon. Told me some stuff I hadn't heard anywhere else. He has quite a bit of info on his website: http://aaronshep.com/kidwriter/index.html

Kim: The Complete Idiot's Guide to Publishing Children's Books by Harold D. Underdown
Quite comprehensive. Actually, Harold hangs out on the above-mentioned CW Yahoo chat list, so you might even be able to He's a really good guy, very generous with advice.

Oh, and a website you'll want to check out: http://www.margotfinke.com
Margot is a great lady -- also someone you'll find on the CW Yahoo list. She has a tremendous wealth of info on her site, as well as links to other sites you'll find helpful. Good luck, Angie. And have fun reading all those books!

Angie: do you know of any online courses (such as the Institute of Children's Literature) that help with the progression of creating a picture book? I loved that the Institute assigned an instructor and could provide feedback with each assignment, and would love if this were possible for picture books. Know of anything that resembles a course form of learning?

Jan: Eventually I hope the Institute will be able to offer such a course, but for now, Anastasia Suen does a picture book class online. You might check her website www.asuen.com to see all the details. Her course is intense and she requires you to read a lot of books.

Kim: Yes, what Jan said. Anastasia's course is very well-regarded. Someone in my critique group took it, I think. (Her picture book workshop, I mean.) I believe they thought it was valuable. I took the very first session she ever offered on School Visits. I thought that was worthwhile, too.

gigglebox: Does writing a picture book mirror writing short stories for magazines? I read another one of your answers that mentioned "32 pages and knowing where to page turn in your script" and it got me to thinking... could the skills I've learned for short fictional magazine pieces apply to writing a manuscript for a picture book?

Kim: Some skills will definitely come in handy. You probably already know about tension and conflict, motivation, characterization, etc. -- all things that are important in both picture books and magazine stories. But you'll want to strip away much of the description from a magazine story to make it work for a picture book. And you'll want to ADD scenic opportunities for the illustrator to show in a picture book.

Jan: As someone who wants to write picture books -- even in your magazine stories, try focusing on sensory detail OTHER THAN visual. Exciting action. Sound. Scent. Taste....things that are not easily rendered in illustrations. If you're writing for preschool markets during the magazine course (again, in prep for picture books), the magazines usually illustrate *fairly* heavily so even there you can focus on things other than sight and let the illustrator do the visuals.

Jan: Your writing in picture books still needs to *show* -- to include specific detail in action and sense impression...just not in SEEING. I've seen picture books that had great sensory detail in the text...mostly sound detail...but sometimes smell and taste if appropriate. And action is always very specific with strong clean verbs. So as your instructor pushes you to SHOW...just be sure to do it with a focus away from visuals so you're practicing for your ultimate market goal.

unomahi: I am a preschool teacher and a story teller. I read a lot of picture books and encourage my preschoolers to do the same, I have an idea which once they like and which one's they are able to read on their own after the second or third time of listening. I have a strong back ground in early childhood literature and a first degree in art. My question is that over the years I have written an illustrated several stories for fun and for teaching skills. ( I laminate and spiral bind my little books) Teachers in my school borrow and use this books and always tell me to publish.PLEASE WHAT IS THE VERY FIRST STEP towards publishing

Kim: Wow, it sounds as though you really know the sort of books that work for teachers. And, to be sure, as a teacher, you have read a LOT of children's books. So you have already started with my first bit of advice, which is always to read read read.

Kim: A big thing is joining SCBWI. That will not only afford you access to the info on the SCBWI website, it will also put you in touch with other writers in your area interested in children's books as well. It may help find you a critique group, whether in person or online. I've done both and each has its own merits. I enjoy being in a room with people who are as passionate about children's books as I am, but I like how an online group can give you more indepth feedback because the critiques take place over the course of a week or more.

Kim: I have been in my critique groups for nearly 8 years. (!!! Time flies!) I had been writing on my own, and had even started submitting, before I joined a crit group. But, seriously, it was the joining of a group that really set me on a true path to publication. There is just nothing like it. Most of my crit group partners I have never even met, in person, and yet I cherish them like family. Really, it's amazing how well you can get to know a person thru correspondence, even if you have never heard their voice, let alone meeting them in person to exchange hugs.

Kim: So, bottom line: how-to books and SCBWI are probably the first steps you'll want to take. Have fun, and good luck!!

moncheri: You know how we are told that one of the elements of a good children's book, in this case, picture book, is that the main character should be a child (and he or she should be the age of your target reader). What are your thoughts on that? I'm working on a picture book right now. It is about a child and her aunt. But with my first instinct and idea of the plot, I wrote the aunt as the main character, who outwits the child.

moncheri: The common feedback I got (you guessed it), is that the child should be the problem-solver. So I revised it, and the child is now the star, not the aunt. But then, I also got one feedback, saying she prefers the original version, and that the Aunt outsmarting the child is more of a gem of a story. I know there are many picture books out there that defy this convention. But as a new writer, trying to tap into the competitive world of picture books, should I be safe and stick with the norm?

Kim: This is an excellent question! From the way you describe it, if the aunt is totally in charge, sort of running the show, then I'm not sure it will work as a children's book. However, if you give the aunt childlike qualities, it might work. For instance, if she is tricking the child because the child is a sort of "alpha" character, (almost a bully) who deserves to be tricked, it might work. But it sounds very tricky. Another "adult" creature who works as a viewpoint character for children's books are animals. Many children's books feature adult animals -- even animals with jobs, like the ones in Richard Scarry's books -- but because they're animals, children seem be able to identify with them. In fact, I wonder if that wouldn't work in your book? If you haven't tried that, it might be just the ticket! Just sort of brainstorming out loud for you.

Kim: Now, I don't know how long you have been working on the story, but if it's quite a while and you're simply loath to make the change when most people tell you you have a problem, you're not doing yourself any favors. I know it's hard to let go of your original vision sometimes, but often, when you do, you find yourself very happy with the new version. I have felt that way many times, when my critique group has been less than enthusiastic about something I submitted. At first I'm in a teensy bit of a snit, "Hmmph. Well, what does SHE know. She just doesn't get it!" (I never post this to my group, mind you!! ) But after thinking about it for a day or two, I often come to see how right they are. I use my critique group as a sort of polling device. If enough people say it's a problem, than I do make changes. It sounds as though the polling numbers are saying your point of view is a problem, but you're clinging to that one opinion that agrees with yours. What that person may be missing, when they say they preferred the original, is a certain amount of "vinegar" and wittiness that is missing from the rewritten version. See if you can inject the original life back into the story, while still following the advice of changing MC. Can you just change the aunt into a child? So that it's more a battle between peers?

moncheri: Thank you for the wonderful insights! Having experienced this struggle with adult MC issue, it got me thinking...why some books that do have adult human characters can work and be successful. E.g. Strega Nona by Tomie dePaola. Is it because the human MCs are in a sense not your typical adult in real life...but somebody quirky like Strega Nona...or someone that belongs to a folktale? I'm wondering.

Kim: I think you pegged it when you mentioned fairy tales. Those often do seem to have adult characters, particularly old women. Again, I think if the author can infuse the character with childlike qualities, it can definitely work. Not all publishers want fairy tale type stories, but enough do that it's not total "death" to a manuscript which uses that form. Which is a good thing, because I LOVE fairy tales!

Jan: I think there are a couple reasons old women can make good story characters. They share some of the same "issues" as small children: physical limitations (old women in stories are often a bit physically frail and almost always short...two things they share with small children who have limitations to what they can manage physically and tend to be short ). They have a place in society that is not powerful -- which, again, sets limits on them. Often they must depend upon their wits, courage or cleverness to overcome the story problem since they are powerless -- how much more like kids could you want?

Jan: Kids can relate to those elements of "old woman-ness." Now if your main character is an adult but not an elderly person -- they generally play one of two roles: they're the wise fool (again, being looked down upon by "adult" characters because of their foolishness but ultimately "winning" at the end of the story because they're very foolishness gives them an edge, a unique perspective and creativity -- this is their "kid-ness") or they're the foil for the "kid" characters -- in this, the adult plays an adult but they don't "win" -- it allows the young reader to feel some superiority over these powerful creatures known as "adults." The most common form of this is the "idiot dad" -- such as you see in the Berenstain Bears (not my favorite).

Yaya: I have some stories I have written that I believe would make great picture books. Do you think that there are publishers who might be interested in stories that would include pictures drawn on the computer? I am not talking about clipart or anyone else's pictures, but things I have drawn, myself. The stories need to have very simple drawings, much like Ed Emberley does with his thumbprint books, so do you feel that there is a market for the two things to be tied together? Thank you.

Kim: It seems as though trade publishers (those who publish the sort of books you'll find on the main picture book display shelf in Barnes and Noble) are being slow to transition to books that have an obvious computer-generated look. Of course, many illustrators are doing a combination of traditional and computer, so that it looks like a traditional painting or collage, when -- in fact -- there are a lot of layers of Photoshop in the finished product.

Kim: But there are some illustrators doing great work with CG images, so if it works for the project you're considering, I don't think a publisher would reject simply because it's CG. I have heard some art directors complain that they don't like work that is OBVIOUSLY CG. But, by that, I think they mean where it's a sort of CG "cheat." Manipulated photographs, for instance, rather than relying on strong drawing skills. But if the whole POINT of the illustration is CG, and it's not just cheating, then I think some editors would respond to that. But not all, by any means.

Jan: Keep in mind, yaya, that unless your art is competitive with professional illustrators, you should not ever ever send it with your manuscript. Editors see piles and piles of manuscripts with cute hand drawn or computer drawn simple little sketches and (by and large) they don't even read them. They figure if you haven't researched enough to know not to send such things, you probably don't write well enough for publication and they can save time in their day by skipping that submission. That's cold, but editors are buried these days -- especially editors who accept picture book submissions because so very many new writers think picture books are the only form of "children's book." When you have a teetering stack of manuscripts taller than you are, if you can cull a few out quickly without reading them...well, you probably would. So...only try being your own illustrator is you are confident your work is competitive with professional illustrators in the field and ONLY if you totally have researched and learned the proper submission steps for sending illustrations.

Yaya: I would like to know if it is gonna' take me years and years and years to get published. I am old. I don't have that many years and years to throw around. Please tell me it did not take you years and years and years to break into the picture book market.

Kim: Well, it depends on where you count my starting point. (Please forgive, if any of you have heard this from me a thousand times before! Seems as though I bored people with it many times.) I can tell you that I finished my very first picture book manuscript, (first draft, I mean), just before sunup one morning, after putting my younger son back into his crib after a pre-dawn nursing. He was nearly 14, in 2007, by the time my first book came out. BUT! I may be a bit of a slow-poke. For one thing, I'm stubborn and frugal, (ie CHEAP!) and a bit of a maverick. So I didn't take any classes, and most of the how-to books I bought were 2nd-hand. And I didn't discover the internet as the amazing educational resource it IS until just before I found my critique group in 2001. So I think anyone who is clever and driven could break in much more quickly than I did. I know some who have. Also, my journey was a little rambling at first. I didn't know WHAT I wanted to write; so I wrote verse and then romance (just not my thing), and then began to discover my love for children's books. (RE-discovered them, actually, since I was a voracious reader as a child.)

Kim: So, if you pinpoint my starting place as when I really settled on children's books (you already seem to be there!), and perhaps the first regional SCBWI conference I attended (feeling lonely and lost) about 8 or 9 years ago, that's not so long, right? I think maybe the 1st conference I attended was fall of 2000. At my 3rd conference, in 2002, I met my future Dutton editor. Six months later, in the spring of 2003, she bought the manuscript she had reviewed at the conference. (After I revised it a couple of times for her.) Now I look forward to the regional Mid-Atlantic conference like "old home week." I get to see dear friends I've made over the years, and am also sometimes paid to attend because they often find something for me to do that puts me on the faculty. So my start-to-break-in point may be short or long, depending on how you measure it. If someone had told me, when I put my son back into his crib that morning, that he would be a hulking teen before my first book hit the shelves, I might have been scared away. But because I didn't have a crystal ball, and it was a day-by-day journey, it doesn't seem that long. Certainly the time from my child's infancy to "shaving years" has seemed achingly brief.

Kim: That first book has never sold... yet. That's pretty common, I think. I'm betting most published authors write several books before they learn enough to sell something. But it is now in the hands of my agent, after myriad revisions and a title change. So I do hope to see it in print some day.

yansmom: My question is geared toward detail and description. I know that it should be minimal as the illustrations will take care of this, but I was just wondering how do you know if you've got enough of it, or too much? Are some things okay to include if you want to give the illustrator a bit of guidance? Or is the illustrator fully in charge once he gets the manuscript? In a short story, if I wanted to let the reader know the character is angry, I would use facial expressions, or body language or movement--for example: Sophie stomped her foot, but how would you include something like this in a PB manuscript? Is it okay to include things like facial expressions and then that detail would be omitted once it's been illustrated? Can you add small notes for the illustrator when you feel the story needs it to work? Any words of wisdom on this would be extremely appreciated. Thank you!

Kim: It is definitely a balancing act, deciding what to include and what to leave to the illustrator. My most basic rule is, I never include illustrator notes unless there is something that must be in the picture that is not clear in my words. For instance, at the end of JACK OF ALL TAILS, it was necessary to add this note: (Illustration note: She is running on a giant hamster wheel.) The note was necessary because the only words one the page are, "It runs in the family!" -- not clear enough that the illustrator would have known about the hamster wheel otherwise.

Kim: Little "stage directions" that are part of your actual narration, like foot stomping, scowling, etc. are a little more tricky. One way to get around them is to make it clear in the dialogue that the character is frustrated, frightened, angry, and let your illustrator then show it in the body language. You can get away with a few. I think the best way to get a feel for this is to check out a stack of new books from the library and really study them. Compare the text to the pictures. How much is told in the text and how much in the pictures? This will vary from publisher to publisher, so you'll have to decide how much you are comfortable with.

Yaya: I haven't had a chance to see any of your books, so I would like to know what your preference is in writing? Do you do lots of rhyme or, do you prefer to write in a more conversational tone?

Kim: My first book was in prose, because I'd heard the advice we all hear: editors don't want to see rhyme. But I actually have a lot of skill with rhythm and rhyme (I used to sing in a big band; I think my musical abilities are a big part of my verse-writing abilities), so I decided to go with my gut and risk sending out a rhyming book, CROCODADDY, which was snapped up fairly quickly by Sterling. (11 weeks from query to offer, which is lightning fast by publishing standards.)

Kim: Since then, I have decided to go with my natural bent and write more rhyme. Three of my four currently sold books are in rhyme, and my agent seems to like rhyme and feel comfortable marketing it.

Kim: Rhyme is the only type of writing that really pulls me back to the desk to keep working. With other types of writing, I tend to procrastinate, like it's a dreary homework assignment. Not that -- as with most projects -- I don't enjoy writing prose once I make myself sit down to do the work; I do enjoy it once I get going, (not unlike exercise!) But with rhyme, I'm actually EAGER to get back to work every day.

yaya: What's the difference between a storyboard and a dummy?

Kim: A storyboard is the whole story laid out, two-dimensionally on a single page (whether a piece of notebook scrap paper or something as big as a huge presentation tablet.) A dummy is like a little book. One of my editors called it a "turning dummy," meaning you can turn the pages.

LadyLori: You mentioned making a dummy in another response. I have heard of doing that, but am not clear about it. If I take my manuscript and set up a dummy, do I send that with my query letter? I have read that some people do, but I don't know if it is expected or valuable to do so. I have also read that the editor/publisher(or illustrator?) will decided where the page turns will be. So the dummy may give me a sense of the book, but may not be what someone else envisions. Could you talk more about the value of a picture book dummy, please?

Kim: The sort of quick dummy I was suggesting would be for your eyes only. And it doesn't even have to be a "turning dummy," (the kind made out of 8 sheets of paper.) More often than not, I'll just print out my manuscript and start marking it with a pencil (so I can erase all I want), deciding where I think the page turns would be. You are right that the publisher will make the final page-turning decisions, so -- unless you are an illustrator -- you will only be sending a plain, text manuscript with no page-turns mentioned. (Unless it's really important to the pacing of the story, like Rick Walton's hilarious and brilliant ONCE THERE WAS A BULL... FROG.)

Kim: The reason you want to either mark up your manuscript or make the turning dummy is to see, for yourself, whether you have enough variety in your scenes for an illustrator to fill a 32 page book.

Kim: Another tool I find really useful is a storyboard. In fact, for the way my brain works, a storyboard is better, because I can see the whole thing laid out all at once. I can see if my wind-up is too long or if my resolution starts too early or too late. Oh wait! I can share that with anyone who would like to see one. Give me a little bit and I'll come up with a spot where you can download it as a PDF.

Kim: Here's the promised storyboard. Please forgive the tacky page I've used to create the download page. It's an old website I used to use as a place to practice using my iWeb program. http://web.mac.com/kimnorman/iWeb/Site/Help%20for%20Writers.html

Emac: Just curious, Kim. How often does the pacing that the illustrator and editor choose turn out a little different than your own? Have you ever been surprised by the pacing choices they made that were different than what you originally envisioned as the author?

Kim: I learned a LOT about pacing from my first editor. She felt it was important (and she was right) that all the "gags" happened after the page turn. Hate the word "gag;" sounds kind of hacky, but it's the only word I could think of. Maybe a better word is the humorous payoffs. So we'd do the setup on a right-hand page and the payoff would come after the page-turn. So far, I've been happy that my editors and I are generally on the same wavelength. But maybe that's not a surprise, when you think about it. Generally, if an editor is drawn strongly enough to your book that she's willing to go to bat to acquire it, it means you likely have similar tastes.

Kim: I usually just print it up and write directly onto it. It's a little small, but you can just indicate text; not all of it. Or you might be able to paste it into MSWord and then type your text, small, over each little box. I'm not that familiar with Word, though, so I don't know. I'm a graphic artist, so I have all kinds of graphics programs that allow me to manipulate it. Sometimes I scribble little thumbnail drawings on it -- again, for my eyes only -- to see the flow of the story.

Z-Little-Lady: How many words are preferred per page?

Kim: I don't think there's any rule. You'll notice in some picture books there is a lot of word on some pages, with a lot less -- or even none -- on some spreads.

Kim: And it's definitely a matter of taste, which works best for you. I prefer a storyboard because, the way my brain works, I prefer to see the whole project spread out. (That's why my desk is a mess, too!) Others respond more favorably to a tangible little book they can hold in their hands.

moncheri: I notice that in your storyboard, you begin with page 5. I referred to other versions of dummies and storyboards, and they are similar in this way...saying to cross out page 1 and page 32. And start writing on page 5 (coz we have to leave the first few pages for title page, publisher info stuff). Then I went to examine the picture books that I have. All of them start on Page 4 or 6 (left side of the book). My question is, since there are different variations, and our dummy is for ourselves only, if we lay out our story differently from how the publisher does it...will it jeopardize our chances? e.g I may think that a 4-sentence para can fit onto 1 page - but the publisher thinks 1 sentence per page. My book will then be over 32 pages...and he/she will conclude...okay, reject! And is it true that we should stick to the 32-page format to maximize our chances? My manuscript is running to 40+ pages

Jan: If you have TOO many images (but not too much word count) then you will not be rejected for that. Editors will love the liveliness of your story. I've seen stories with several "illustrations" on a page to show multiple images (for example, in a story where a child changed clothes a lot...the page included the character in several outfits. An editor may break the story up a bit differently than you did in your story board -- probably will in fact -- but the story board is mostly so you can see that it COULD work for the full book's worth of very different illustration possibilities and that it COULD work in terms of pacing and story arc. It's for too little illustration story potential that you get rejected. Or if it's too wordy, or seems as though it would work better for a chapter book (Andrew Clements wrote FRINDLE as a picture book and it didn't work as a picture book and eventually became a novel) or just because the editor is having a nervous tick about cats (or whatever) -- rejections are a mysterious thing but it WON'T be because you're story is just too illustratable.

Kim: Yes, great example, Jan! Or they might show actions in overlapping circles or whatever. The Berenstain Bears did that a lot. I agree with Jan, I think you're in much greater danger of rejection with too LITTLE visual action than too much. They don't have to show everything, either.

Kim: About the page 5 thing, you're right, that's just sort of a norm. Most of the pic books on my shelf start on page 5, a right hand page. Many carry the story all the way to page 32. Some publishers are putting the copyright stuff on page 32 these days, but even then, sometimes I've seen it sort of crammed down into a corner while the story wraps up on that page. So there are no rules set in stone. It's just that they'll almost never use all 32 pages for the story. Then, on the other hand... in STINKY CHEESE MAN, that little red hen sort of intrudes on the title page, doesn't she? But that's a book that broke rules left and right: length, layout, you name it. mmmgood: I would like to ask about rhythm, meter, and cadence -- I'm still a bit confused as to what is what. Is there a piece (perhaps a poem) that you could post here, then use it to explain the differences in these terms? Perhaps if you could point out the rhythm, the cadence, and the meter in a specific poem, I might be better able to grasp the different meanings and functions of each.

Kim: Okay, I'll start with meter, which is the easiest to define: That's the distinctive "beat" you hear in any rhymed, metered poem:

i THINK that I shall NEver SEE
a POem LOVEly AS a TREE.

Kim: (It's ironic to note that -- while meter is the easiest for me to define -- it is among the hardest to write, which is why you hear so many editors saying, "PLEASE do not send rhyme!" It's like water torture, I imagine, going thru hundreds of badly rhymed & metered submissions.)

Kim: Rhythm is definitely part of the metered phrase I demonstrated above, as it is a part of music. The lines above had 4 beats to the line, sort of like four beats to the measure.

Kim: But rhythm & cadence can be used more subtly, too, in un-metered text, as in open verse. I think, since you're finding it confusing, I'll just talk about meter and cadence, since rhythm sort of flows between both of them, interchangeably. So, if meter is based on distinct beats that you can count, cadence is a bit more subtle, but you can hear the beats -- a sort of rise and fall of energy -- if you listen carefully. It's just that they won't be consistent, (always four to a line, for instance.)

Kim: The best I can do to describe cadence, online where you can't hear my voice, is to fall back on Dr. King. Listen here where he chooses to speed up and slow down his sentences, as well as using rising and falling pitch, taking his voice high into a tenor range or low into a baritone range. Dr. King is deliberately exaggerating the cadence, of course, for dramatic effect. It worked... well... like a dream.

mmmgood: I think I got it now, Ms. Norman. What threw me is that in music, these terms are used nearly interchangably. Even if you look at a thesaurus, you'll find that they are synonyms. Listening to Dr. King's speech truly did help. Thanks very much for finally getting this through my head!

Kim: To be honest, in their strictest sense, the terms probably ARE interchangeable. It's just that, often, when a reviewer talks about the rhythm or cadence of a book's language, he/she is talking about something other than beat/meter. It's something a little more nebulous than that. Glad Dr. King helped. He helped us all!

Denise: Thanks for all your time. I have really enjoyed going over the questions and your answers in this workshop. I would like to illustrate and write my children's book but am not sure how to submit it. For example do I write it up like I see it or there things I should know? Also, as for graphics what is most popular for illustrating stories for children? Such as watercolour (spelled the B.C. way), pencil, acrylic, oil, or black and white pen drawings. I love colour (spelled the B.C. way), and am always drawn to children's books that have deep rich illustrations. However, I often look at how something is drawn too if it is cute, funny or absolutely strange.

Kim: Unless you are a trained illustrator with years of experience, I urge you to think twice about attempting to illustrate your own story. I suspect this may be the case if you are not sure about what medium to use. An experienced illustrator would already have a preferred medium or two. (Really any medium is acceptable these days, from photos to watercolors to gouache to collage to computer illustration to a combination of all of the above.)

Kim: Aside from the sheer Herculean task of selling a picture book illustrated by a non-professional, there is the consideration I made in another post about how hard it is to sell both, even if you ARE a seasoned illustrator. Sometimes the publisher will reject because art director doesn't think that particular illustration style is right for the story, even if the editor loves the story. Or sometimes they'll reject because they would have preferred to match an unknown writer with a better-known illustrator. It is just SO hard to sell both story and pictures together that I would urge you against the idea unless you are already a published illustrator with a strong, defined style.

Kim: I'm an artist myself. I've been a graphic artist for 30 years and have done some fine art paintings and collage as well as dozens of theater sets. But I in no way feel that qualifies me as an illustrator. Primarily because I don't have a strong style. You know how you pick up a book and think, "Hey, this must be by the same illustrator who did IF YOU GIVE A MOUSE A COOKIE.... or NO, DAVID or WHERE THE WHILE THINGS ARE"... even if you didn't know that illustrator's name? That's the kind of distinctive style I'm talking about. It takes years to develop a strong style. Publishers WANT artists with a strong style, although I know a few illustrators who have a couple of different styles, depending on the job. But they deliberately USE those different styles, and one would never be confused with the other. I KNOW I don't have that kind of skill, even after all these years as a graphic artist. So, again, do think hard about it before attempting it.

Denise: Do I send in a dummy book of how I see the pictures, words and actions of characters or do I submit them seperately? And how are they sent... with paper in between the pictures? Would editors prefer a whole story board similar to the one you shared with us but there doesn't seem to be room for pictures. Anyway, hope my question is clear.

Kim: I think most artists submit a dummy with just quick sketches and only a couple of finished illustrations. They don't send originals, of course, just scans of the originals. Someone in my critique group said she was cutting it back to something even simpler. Just mostly text, with a couple of images pasted into the document in the appropriate places, so the editor could see a couple of finished images with the text. There doesn't seem to be any one set way of submitting with illustrations. As long as it's neat and the editor can see your vision, it's just fine. For many houses, you'll have to query first, which will save you money, since you'll only send the full dummy to those who request the whole thing.

Kim: Sue Corbett, the Miami Herald children's book reviewer, (who actually lives near me in Virginia) was telling me about a book that DID arrive at the publisher as a sort of collaged mess, but it was so charming and exquisitely executed that the publisher published it almost as is -- messy, bumpy cover, jagged pages and all. It must have been astronomically expensive to produce! I'm drawing a blank on the title. Does that sound familiar to you, Jan? Of course, the messy, journal style of the book was the whole point of producing it that way; it was connected to the story somehow.

Denise: I recall a similar book that looks professionaly shabby and torn called Little Mouse's Big Book of Fears. It is raggedy, has holes in it and is just a college of messiness but absolutely adorable. Written by Emily Gravett it is about a little mouse confronting his fears, there are so many things to explore on each page, a wonderful book. Well I guess anything goes if you believe in it, do it. What is a query -- something you do by phone? email? Letter?

Kim: If they'll take email queries, that's cool. Definitely go for it. Lots of agents accept e-queries now. Publishers may be moving that way, but it seems as though most still prefer snail-mail submissions. I have written two posts on my blog explaining about queries. One contains the entire text of the query that led to the sale of CROCODADDY, and the other explains about that pesky term you see so often in publishers' listings, "No unsolicited submissions." Doesn't mean you can't submit; just means they want to see a query first. See the two links below:
http://stonestoop.blogspot.com/2008/01/sample-of-winning-query.html < a href="http://stonestoop.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-unsolicited-manuscripts-doesnt-mean.html">http://stonestoop.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-unsolicited-manuscripts-doesnt-mean.html

Kim: If you Google the term "How to write a query letter" you'll find lots of examples.

Jan: You can find an example in the Insitute article collection at http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/rx/ws07/cleverqueries.shtml

Mikki: I don't write picture books, but I am interested in something I've heard about them from the SCBWI boards. There was a discussion about PBs sometime ago concerning the length of time it takes to get one published. Someone asked why so many writers want to write PBs where there seems to be such an over-abundance of them. This person said she had been told by her agent not to consider writing them, because if and when one was accepted for publication, it would take any where from 5 to 10 years to get the book published.

Mikki: Needless to say, there was a rather heated discussion about this! But I was wondering what your take is on this...does it really take such a long time for PBs to be published, or it is really just about the same lenght of time for any other book? And if it does take longer, why? A final question: are most rhyming PBs written in iambic meter?

Kim: Sounds like there was a bit of exaggeration going on. I have heard of a book occasionally being moved enough times that 10 years elapses, but it's hardly the norm, nor is 5 years. My WEE PIGGY book has just been moved back to 2012, so it will be five years for that one, but that had more to do with the economy than with typical publisher schedules. I was just glad they didn't cancel it all together, as they did one of my friend's books.

Kim: I'll give you the times on my books:
JACK OF ALL TAILS, (Dutton): 4 years
CROCODADDY, (Sterling): 3 years
TEN ON THE SLED, (Sterling): under 2 years (I sold it in Jan 09, and they're shooting for holiday -- fall -- 2010.)
I KNOW A WEE PIGGY WHO WALLOWED IN BROWN, (Dutton): 5 years, (but, as I said, that's the economy, plus being "orphaned" when the acquiring editor left to take over as boss of Disney/Hyperion.)

Kim: Most picture book authors I know have similar numbers.

Kim: It does take longer than chapter books, just because of the added time to select & schedule an illustrator, then the time for the illustrator to do the work. And there might be a little more time in the printing process because of all the color pages, but probably not that much more these days, since so much is handled digitally.

Kim: But once you get past that initial wait for the first book, if you keep writing and selling new books, it doesn't feel like such a long wait anymore. If the schedule stays as is, the chronology for my currently sold books is 2007, 2009, 2010, and 2012. Not such a bad stretch in between them. I had already sold my 2nd book, to a different publisher, by the time the first came out. That's pretty common, I assume. I'd like to work my way up to one and then two per year, but I don't think that will happen until the economy turns around.

Kim: As for the agent discouraging picture book writing, that probably has more to do with the income an agent derives from pic books than scheduling. If the agent is good enough to wrangle her author all the money up front, (mine is), then what difference would the release schedule make to the agent? (Other than waiting for royalties, of course, but those are never a given. I always assume that the advance is the only money I'll see for a picture book. If it sells well -- as Crocodaddy seems to be doing -- and earns out to the point that I'm receiving royalties, I consider that gravy.)

Kim: It's more likely the agent is discouraging picture book writing because picture book authors split the royalty with the illustrator, thus reducing the agent's income as well. So, on average, instead of receiving a 10% royalty on a book, the author gets 5%, which affects the size of the advance and, of course, the agent's income. On average, chapter book advances are larger than picture book advances, (anywhere from 2 to 10 times as much), so that affects agents' incomes, too. (I'm talking averages for "mid-list" authors, who are producing consistently, but aren't superstars. Stars and occasional lucky newcomers may get higher numbers than that, but those are far from the norm.)

Kim: So I actually felt quite lucky to find an agent who loves picture books and was willing to take me on. Even with 3 sales to respected publishers under my belt, I knew agents wouldn't be knocking down my door to represent me, even when I started looking for one while I had a fairly likely offer for a 4th book on the table. She came in to negotiate that 4th sale, and did a great job.

LadyLori: I've been working my way through Ann Whitford Paul's book Writing Picture Books: A Hands-On Guide From Story Creation to Publication. (A great book, by the way!) One thing she suggests is making a study of each character in the story: name, dob & age at time of story, appearance, relationship with others, personality. She gives further ideas for delving deeper. I found this to be fun & enlightening even though a lot of the information would never make it into the story. I even did a study of the mc's father, who never appears, but whom I realized mc takes after (as she is very different from her mother). It was helpful to then revise my ms in light of what I now knew about each character: making sure that s/he was consistent in what s/he did and said with her/his overall character. Do you do character studies? Do agents or editors ever want this kind of back story?

Kim: While I've never done a formal character study, I do often know more about my characters than ever appears in the book. For instance, in JACK OF ALL TAILS, I knew that the parents (who are never named) were Jack and Maxine Kibbleman. I must have talked about it somewhere -- on a blog, maybe -- because I found a review in a library website once which mentioned the Kibbleman family -- but their names are never mentioned in the story, so that reviewer must have really done her homework!

Kim: Once, to shake a story I was stuck on, I wrote a dialogue between myself (as a sort of interviewer) and the main character. I'll be honest: it didn't help much. Haha! But I'll bet it might help SOMEONE, so it never hurts to try to look at a project from various angles.

LadyLori: Is it important to make the age of the main character of a picture book known? I understand that the illustrator will provide the description, but what about the age? I'm working on a story of a child who discovers a second meaning of her name that causes her to be ridiculed. She does an internet search and comes to understand the beauty of the name and why her parents chose it for her. Kids today are internet savvy, so at first, I identified her as a second grader. Then I wasn't sure if she should be in third grade if she knows how to do a "Google Search." (I was in third grade when I found out about my own full name for the first time, so that's not too far fetched.) Anyway, I thought it might be safest to not give an age or grade and let the illustrator portray what feels right. What do you think? Would the agent/editor/publisher want me to make it clear? I think the story is appropriate for 6-8 year olds.

Kim: I don't think I have ever specifically identified the age of any of my MCs. Usually an editor can tell based on the situation. In JACK OF ALL TAILS, the MC is about 8 or 9, but it's never really said. And because of the nature of play between father and son, it was just natural to make the boy younger, maybe 5, in CROCODADDY. Sometimes it might be important, say if you're making a point that a character is excited about entering 3rd grade in the fall, or what have you. For this particular story, you might get some complaints from editors about the child using the internet, regardless of her age, so you might want to make sure to show that she is being supervised -- in the library or wherever.

Quill: As an illustrator yourself, I wonder if you could speak to the importance of both words and art. I have heard it said that in the current trend of the children's book industry, illustrations can make or break the success of a picture book. Obviously, so can good or bad writing. But it seems like the emphasis is on illustration. Even if you have a well-written story, unless you also have great illustrations or a good illustrator, the book may not succeed. Do you find this to be true? Is this indeed a "current trend?" I'm guessing that our words should paint pictures and evoke worlds that stand of their own merit, and ultimately of course help an illustrator to do justice to the story. I'm just reluctant to believe that the final measure of success all comes down to who illustrates the picture book, or what the illustrations are like.

Kim: I think it's true that picture books are relying more on pictures to tell the story than they did in decades past. Although I think the trend started decades ago, in the 60s, when Maurice Sendak started working wordless illustrations into his books. (Maybe he was doing it before that, when he started illustrating for Harper in the 50s; I'm no Sendak scholar!), but -- at any rate -- it does seem that publishers are wanting shorter manuscripts, which means it's on the illustrators to build more story around the brief text.

Kim: I wouldn't say it's a "current" trend, though, that -- in a great picture book -- the illustration always ADDS to the story, rather than merely showing what is already stated in the words. I love pointing out to students, when I do school visits, how the illustrators have added details that are not in my words. It gives me as much delight as the students.

Kim: I have noted that, certainly, in reviews, illustrations are given absolutely as much weight as the text, if not more. Even my own CROCODADDY has received many reviews where the reviewer states that -- while he/she enjoyed my verses -- it was really David Walker's illustrations that make it a true delight. Hey, I'll take that off-handed compliment. It was my idea that launched the whole thing, after all.

Kim: And certainly having a "name" illustrator can help a book's sales. That's probably as unfair as a "name" actor making a movie a success, when we all know there are probably a thousand unknown actors in Hollywood who could have done just as good a job in the part. But that's the nature of fame. It does help sales whether we like it or not.

Kim: But, as an illustrator, I think you should rejoice in the fact that your work is being given so much weight. For centuries, illustrators have felt, (and often still do feel), as though they are playing second fiddle to authors. It's about darned time they got their due, don't you think? I say hooray for the storytelling illustrators! Without them, my books would be pale, puny things indeed.

chippy: Say I've written my manuscript, and I'd love it to be a picture book. How do I decide if it is or if it is just another story? What are the things to look for to make my story into a picture book?

Kim: You're right, there is definitely a difference between a picture book and a story, (the sort you might read in Highlights.) You would probably find it very instructive to type up a few picture book texts and view them without illustrations. Then compare them to a Highlights story. You'll find that the picture book text seems a bit incomplete, while the Highlights story can stand alone with perhaps just the one or two illustrations that Highlights added to the story. Picture books are less likely to have what I call "stage directions," describing the movements of the characters, or even their appearances. The illustrator will do much of that in a picture book.

Kim: And then -- hugely important -- a picture book must have lots of potential for illustration. If nothing much changes visually in the story, (the characters are sitting in the library the whole time, for instance), then it may not be a good fit for a picture book. My first editor at Dutton once said in an interview that she knows a story has potential when she starts seeing the images in her head as she reads the story. The picture book will have at least 14 illustrations; perhaps more. They each need to be different. An illustrator can stretch it, a bit, by showing the same scene from a different angle, but that can be tedious. it's even better if there are lots of events for the illustrator to picture.

mmmgood: Writing rhythm and rhyme stories and/or poetry is something I enjoy immensely. Embarrassingly, I never know exactly what it is I am writing. A story? A poem? If it has a well-established plot with a beginning, middle, and end … does that constitute a story? Along those same lines, is there a difference between a “picture book” and an illustrated short story?

Kim: If your poem has some narrative or chronology, with a little conflict thrown in, you're probably on your way to a picture book. But I have read many narrative poems which would make lousy picture books. The key is probably in the visuals: does your poem have 14 or events that can be illustrated in distinctly different illustrations?

Kim: Or at least, say 8, which could be illustrated in a variety of angles to come up to the required 13 or 14 spreads. One of my editors rejected Crocodaddy citing that exact problem: that she couldn't envision enough various illustrations for the story. An editor at another house snapped it up quickly and hired David Walker, whose illustrations have been getting better reviews than my text! LOL! So sometimes it just requires a different vision.

Kim: But I would recommend that you take one of your poems and lay it out on a simple dummy. Just 8 sheets of paper, folded in half to equal 32 pages. Don't forget that the story usually starts around page 5, after the title and copyright pages, etc.

Kim: As to your second question: I think the main two differences between a picture book and an illustrated story are length, and the amount to which the story is told THRU the pictures. A picture book manuscript should feel a little bald, a little unfinished. That's because it IS unfinished until the pictures are added. It also steers clear of what I call "stage directions." ... "David turned and gave me a stern look." The illustrator will show that, so need to mention it.

Kim: You might find it instructive to go to the library and type up the text of several new books. (New because that will give you an idea of what publishers are buying these days. Books from the 80s and 70s were often much wordier.)

Kim: I had time on my hands last Tuesday, waiting to pick up my son from Busch Gardens Williamsburg, so I treated myself to a trip to the lovely Wmbg library where I spent a happy hour or two in the children's section, reading books I'd had my eye on for a while, even typing up 4 or 5 of them so I could study the text without the illustrations. I do this not only to learn, but as a form of market research. I have an agent, but it is still a collaborative effort, marketing my manuscripts. So when I see a book that is similar in theme or tone to one of my books, I tell my agent about it, and who published it.

mmmgood: I never thought of "typing up" a book. Excellent idea.

Kim: It definitely is helpful, especially for studying picture books. It lets you see the root story without being influenced by the illustrations. It's also a great help to see how little is really in the words sometimes in terms of "stage directions." When you see the text alone, you really see how much the illustrations help to drive the story.

becca: What are the bare bones essentials of a Picture Book? Like 'must have' this to be successful. Also, 'must have' in the story to make it work as a Picture Book.

Kim: Interesting way to phrase the question. I'm not sure there are any must-haves, but there are probably a combination of "sure BETTER-haves" to make a book saleable. For instance, one is often told, "A story must have conflict." But what about a sweet bedtime book like Goodnight Moon, or a "slice-of-life" book that details the simple actions of a child's day at the beach? So, instead of a single set of "must-haves" I think of it as more a set of qualities to choose from. Combine the right set of qualities, and you have a good book. If NONE of those qualities are there, you probably have a clunker that needs more work. From the following list, I'd say you need at least 3 to have a successful book:

Kim: 1. CONFLICT. It doesn't have to be big a big fight to be considered conflict. It could be as simple as a child worrying about learning to tie his shoes; or -- as in my JACK OF ALL TAILS -- I finally discovered that the conflict is over Kristi, the MC, trying to discover which pet she is really good at impersonating.

Kim: 2. PACING. Pacing can be manipulated in a variety of ways: page turns; sentence length, (shorter sentences speed up the action; longer ones slow things down); accelerating conflicts, (they happen closer and closer together, for instance); etc.

Kim: 3. INTERESTING CHARACTERS. Note I say "interesting" rather than "likeable." Some characters just aren't very likeable, such as Alexis O'Neill's RECESS QUEEN, or Barbara Bottner's BOOTSY BARKER, but we're still drawn to them and often find them more interesting than the main character. Certainly I feel that way about the 1st person MC in BOOTSY BARKER BITES. I don't even remember the narrating character's name, and of course, her nemisis Bootsy gets the book title. I think my son felt the same way. When he was a toddler, I thought it was very strange that he kept making growling sounds when people talked to him at the grocery store. I finally figured out that he was imitating obnoxious little Bootsy!!!

Kim: 4. HUMOR. Not a given, by any means, but definitely popular with kids and editors alike.

Kim: 5. WORD PLAY, such as alliteration (my big weakness), surprising verbs, repetition, that sort of thing. Great wordplay can turn a ho-hum story into a winner.

Kim: 6. UNIQUE SETTING. Many old themes have been successfully reworked simply by changing the setting. Of course, then words often come into the picture, matching the dialogue and narration to the setting. (Making it sound southern, for instance.)

Kim: 7. SURPRISE ENDING. Definitely not something you find in every story, but -- done right -- it's very pleasing and memorable. A surprise ending only works once, of course. So a book has to have MANY other of the above elements, as well, to work.

Kim: 8. VOICE. Sometimes it's a struggle finding just the right voice for a story. Should it be 1st or 3rd person. Loaded with dialogue (letting the dialogue tell much of the story) or heavier on narration? And what kind of narration? Old fashioned fairy tale narration or inflected narration that carries the feel of a certain region? Either way, memorable voice can make a book more appealing to an editor and reader.

Kim: 9. ONE THING. Generally, a picture book is about ONE THING. Everything you write needs to be heading towards that ONE THING; one happening, one goal, one conflict, etc. For instance, if your story is about a boy who encounters a bear in the woods, and the bear is funny and clumsy, which leads to conflict, then stick with that theme: the funny, clumsy bear. Don't gum it up with tangents, like the boy worrying that he'll be late for dinner and his mother will be angry, blah blah. Not unless it's the bear's clumsiness that MAKES him late.

Kim: 10. EMPATHY. I don't mean the MC has to have a big, pathetic problem that makes the reader feel sorry for him/her. I'm talking about the MC having a problem that the reader can identify with even if they've never had that exact problem before.

Kim: I don't think you need all ten of those things above to create a successful manuscript. But you'd surely better have at least 3 of them. 4 or 5 would be even better!

mmmgood: "...or a "slice-of-life" book that details the simple actions of a child's day at the beach?" Conflict, conflict, conflict. This has been my nemesis. I've written a series of "Let's Pretend," um, short stories? Lengthy poems? It's been discouraging, as I don't even know what label to put on them, or whether or not they are even marketable. They are basically big, bossy sister with big heart makes up all sorts of pretend play to fill the day with her little brother stories. I bring them up so often in these Guest Speaker Workshops, that I imagine my friends out here are thinking "get over it already, Marie!" There is no real conflict in most of them, although some contain conflict. Mostly, they are just great fun, written in rhythm & rhyme style, with a consistent voice and message. I'm so glad to hear someone in-the-know who feels conflict is not an absolute must have. I love the "slice-of-life" book idea. Bless your heart!

Kim: Sadly, quiet, slice-of-life books are among the hardest to sell these days. Short stories are even harder. Everyone wants craziness like Captain Underpants or Walter the Farting Dog.

Kim: Since you're writing about a brother and sister, could you try to work in some conflict? And it could be a problem that there is not enough happening in them for an illustrator to depict many distinctly different scenes. So -- while the no-conflict thing may not be the biggest problem with your book -- it may be that you have too few of those 10 Must-Haves. You might look thru the stories comparing them to that list to see if there's a way you can work in a few more of the Must-Haves to raise the manuscript from merely amusing to being a "must-have" for an editor.

Kim: For instance, you say the sister is bossy. But is she REALLY bossy? Or is the brother just so wishy-washy that he just goes along with whatever she suggests? Maybe you could ramp up some conflict by making her a little annoying; maybe she repeats a cloying grown-upish phrase or something like that.

Kim: I remember one of my sons getting SOOOO annoyed by the conceited Glass Cat in one of the Oz books. Definitely, that cat with his repeated phrase "my brains are a beautiful pink, you know!" WAS becoming annoying. But it really sucked my son into the story and made it memorable for him, just by virtue of the fact that he DID react so negatively to that obnoxious cat.

Denise: I am very new at this and am wondering what advice you might have for writing a picture book where there might be an ick factor. For example the animals can take off their fur like clothes.

Kim: Sounds funny, but I don't understand the "ick factor?" As for ick factor, I've seen some pretty gross subjects for picture books: bodily function noises, snot, you name it. I think the reason for that is that publishers are always looking for something that will be a hit with boys.

Denise: Yes the animals can take off their fur (suits) because it is wash day and I was just wondering how to go about this without it being too gross. Perhaps the pictures would do the trick, maybe? You know cute funny looking pick bums sticking out. Boys might like that and girls too might think it was funny? What do you think.

Kim: I think that could be really funny, Denise. I think it would be easy enough for an illustrator to show a "naked" animal without it looking gross. I love the idea!

Okami: I have several questions: How do you keep the writing simple and short without patronizing your audience? How do you adjust the scope for writing in a shorter form? When you first started, did you have trouble working in a short form? Can you offer any tips on "Thinking in smaller terms" for someone like me who can only produce 500 word fragments and not REAL picture book stories?

Kim: You set yourself too hard a task if you deliberately set out to write a book that is "deep." I have always laughingly said, "There is nothing deep about my books!" And that is true -- on one level. They're not about alcoholism or racism or discrimination or domestic violence or any of the other thousands of problems that plague humankind. But when you break it down, my books really ARE about important human issues: family unity, economy, ingenuity, father-son bonding, self-realization, ecology, even plain old love, (which is the widest topic ever tackled!)

Kim: But, did I start out saying, "I think I'll write a book about father-son bonding and show the world how important that is!"...? Nope, not on your life. That would have scared me too much. I simply set out to write a book about a boy with a great imagination who plays with his father, whom he calls the Crocodaddy. (A word that evolved in our backyard pool. The original Crocodaddy lurked there! So that was always the title, although the art director cut the article "The" on his final cover design, which was fine with me.)

Kim: The irony about picture books is -- although they are designed for the youngest audience -- they often have bigger words and more complex sentence structure than those written for slightly older kids. That's because picture books are often designed to be read TO children by adults, as opposed to early reader books, like the Little Bear series, which are designed for new readers to read them on their own.

Kim: you may be confusing length with depth. How many times have you read a really beautiful short poem and taken volumes of meaning form it? Frost's "The Road Not Taken" is four stanzas, 144 words. But people have found much depth of meaning in it. They have also taken great meaning from a brilliantly succinct quote: I want to know God's thoughts... the rest are details. -- Einstein An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind. -- Gandhi In fact, one might argue that being too WORDY is talking down to an audience. You're too young to remember them, (although you may have bumped into them on cable), but there were a plethora of TERRIBLE sitcoms in the 1970s whose biggest failing was that they assumed the audience so stupid, (and they were probably right) that, after a character delivered a funny barb, a 2nd character would reply in a way that basically explained the joke. Thus adding words to the script and draining all humor from the original gag. I am often guilty of this myself, so don't feel bad if wordiness is your natural bent. My long-suffering critique group has probably overused their scroll bars over the years, trying to find the spot where I finally make my point! Haha!

Kim: you leave out the parts that can be told by the illustrator. AND you look at your story to make sure you are starting it at the right place. You may be starting it too soon, or ending it too late. By that I mean you may be giving us too long a set-up, or too long a wind-down. Set-up should happen within the first two or three pages (maybe even on the FIRST page), and wind-down CAN be as brief as one page, although certainly the last couple of spreads might be part of the wind-down process. (The resolution of the story, I mean.)

Kim: Sometimes I still do! I've never gone to 11,000 words in a 1st draft, but I have gone as high as 2,500. If you're at 11,000 words, I think you're trying to tell too long a story for the genre you are targeting. By long, I mean in terms of number of events, not number of words. Look at the words, "and they lived happily ever after." That encompasses eons of time and events, but is told quickly because it's really not part of the story. If it WERE part of the story, it would be a Michener novel, not a picture book, (although you'd have to throw some tribulations in there with all that happiness!)

Kim: I feel your pain. I do. I am the QUEEN of the great premise. I have folders full of great ideas, great premises. But until that premise converges with a great character, an urgent conflict, it's just a premise, not a picture book. I think you might want to start with your own stories. Remember when you selected the topic for your first term paper, and your teacher warned everyone to be careful to narrow the topic? "Don't just write about love, write about how one romantic poet addressed love in one poem. Don't just write about Coleridge, write about how his drug addiction infused his Ancient Mariner." Perhaps you could do the same sort of winnowing in your stories. See if there's a smaller, more succinct topic you can glean from a longer story, and write about THAT.

luv2rhyme: Is there a market for the "fairytale rhyme" or fantasy book concept for 2-6 yrs olds? Why are Board books so much in demand now?? Is it good idea to think of a picture story book as more or less a long, illustrated poem? (that would really help me make the transition!)

Kim: I love fairy tales. I love the long languid feel of a story that's told almost exclusively in narrative, the way fairy tales were told, as opposed to today's books which have more dialogue. Not sure there's a market for it anymore, but that doesn't keep me from loving them.

Kim: If rhyme is what comes most naturally to you and you do it well, I think you should DO it. If you're really good at it, and all your musically-inclined friends agree you're good at it, (musical friends are handy, because they generally have a strong, innate sense of rhythm), then I think you SHOULD write that way. I think everything Lisa Wheeler has published is in rhyme. She's great and still selling like hotcakes.

Kim: I know what you mean about thinking spontaneously in rhyme. When I'm enmeshed in a rhyming project, my brain does that too. In fact, it can be a little annoying, having that little metronome ticking in your head all day long. Haha! I REALLY had that trouble with Crocodaddy, because it's such an infectious rhythm: "CROC-odaddy, CROC-odaddy" over and over again. Aaaaaa!!

Kim: Now on this issue of fairy tale rhyme and fantasy concept rhyme -- Little kids love rhyme. I think if you just immerse yourself in old-timey nursery rhymes and then start writing them about things that affect kids now, it could be salable. Although, my agent was reminding me again yesterday what a tough sell that poetry anthologies are. But hey, they ARE out there, so somebody is selling them, right?

Kim: Now, about the demand for board books: It's probably being driven by demographics. Baby boomers are starting to become grandparents, so there's probably been an uptick in births in the past few years. Also, I have noticed a trend to re-release picture book classics, and even recent picture book bestsellers, as board books. Probably publishers are finding it an economical way to cash in on a book's popularity without a lot of extra expense, since the illustrations are basically done already. I haven't compared a board book to it's picture book counterpart, but I imagine there's often some editing to shorten the text. But that's just my guess. I haven't really looked into it.

Jan: Excuse my insertion. Although board books continue to sell well to parents with tiny children, I've heard again and again that they are NOT in demand at publishers. It's much cheaper for them to produce them through a packager (thus not taking submissions) or by "re-visioning" picture books into board books (again, therefore not taking submissions for new board books.)

Kim: Now, about thinking of picture book stories are long poems -- Well sure, why not? Whatever floats your boat, as they say. I also always think in terms of picture book rather than poem when I write in verse. I guess I'm probably spoiled, since I've broken into picture books, but let's be honest: picture books pay a LOT better than magazines for what is often basically the same thing: a multiple-stanza poem. When you come right down to it, all my rhyming books are "just poems." So I had the choice of trying to sell them to a children's magazine, (which may have taken even longer to publish them, and been darned slow to pay, I'm hearing), or trying to sell it to a publisher which pays 100 to 200 times as much for the same number of words.

Kim: I don't want to discourage mag writers, if that's your first love. Some stories are only a fit for magazines and would never work as a picture book. If a poem has no variety of imagery, it's probably not a good fit for a picture book. But if you lay it out in a dummy or storyboard and feel it really COULD work as a picture book, I'm all for sending it to a book publisher rather than a magazine. The response time is about the same, and the pay is much better. And, from what I hear, the rate of success (the ratio of submissions to sales) isn't all that different, either.

Kim: Just do your homework and make sure that you have a great STORY as well as great rhyme. Fabulous rhyme without some of those other 10 "must-have" elements I outlined in another thread won't sell a manuscript.

Kim: P.S. -- and to the snobby judge from a writers' conference I once attended: in case you are looking in on this thread: I KNOW my "poems" are not really "poems." (The deep, incomprehensible stuff you find in, say, the NEW YORKER.) I KNOW it's more accurately categorized as "light verse." But that's why no one would play with you on the playground when you were a child: because you are a pedantic bore.

Z-little-lady: Are there still books like the "Little Golden Books" being published anymore? Are there still picture books about words and the alphabet, and numbers still in demand?

Kim: There are several fun ways for you to familiarize yourself with what is being published these days: trips to bookstores and libraries (pull out the newest books at the library), and looking at publisher catalogues. Many publishers allow you to download their catalogues now. You can also do an advanced search on Amazon: just plug in a publisher's name and narrow the search to the past few years, say the past 4 or 5.

Kim: I think one of the main differences between today's books and those Little Golden books of yore is the greater diversity you see in today's books. Little Golden land was populated by mostly white families. So it's a great thing that publishers finally looked around and noticed that there is diversity in the world.

Kim: When I think of the Little Golden books, I think of the text as being very simple, more like today's early reader books -- like the Minarik/Sendak Little Bear books. (Which started 50 years ago, so they're hardly contemporary, but they still hold up.) So, if you are drawn to that sort of book, you can probably get a lot of help from your local children's librarian. Ask her to recommend some early reader books. Try Cynthia Rylant. She's a master at keeping a story clipping along while keep the vocabulary and sentence structure to manageable levels for young readers.

Kim: As for the Disney titles: I doubt they're publishing those fairy tales again, because it's been done. They are probably continuing to concentrate on book-tellings of their animated movies. And those are likely to be produced by book packagers, not a market that's very open to new writers. Here's Wikipedia on book packagers

Kim: I love old books, too. I stocked my children's shelves with 2nd-hand titles when they were small. Have kept many of them with hopes of reading them to a grandchild some day. One of my favorites is PICKLE FOR A NICKEL. Love the repetition in that story.

Kim: Recently, I heard some statistic that your child has been read a thousand books by the time he starts school, he is likely to be more ready for school. I did the math and realized that my kids had been more like 10 thousand books by kindergarten! We always read 3 before nap time and 3 before bedtime. That's about two thousand a year, if you count each reading as one book, even if we're rereading it. (Okay, I'll confess, sometimes I edited. Haha! And my younger son probably got more like TWO before naptime and two before bedtime.) But he turned out to be a stronger reader than his big brother, so it certainly didn't hurt him any.

Kim: Also, in 1st grade on Christmas night, he took his new copy of STUART LITTLE from my hands and informed me he was going to read it to ME. He did, and that was the end of my reading picture books aloud to him. I'm happy he was such a good reader, but I still mourn the passing of those bedtime picture book readings.

Kim: While it benefited my children, it clearly benefited me, too. Imagine reading aloud 10 thousand books. No, wait, that's 20 thousand if you add up books read to both boys. (My boys are 5.5 years apart, so only Harry Potter was read to both at the same time.)

Kim: My goodness! I've never done THAT math before. And, to give my husband credit, he often did the nap time reading, since he works evenings. I do believe reading all those books aloud really tuned my ear to the language and cadence of picture books.

DeliaJolie: I have a few questions: When did you decide to hire an agent? How did you find your agent? How does he help you? Do you really need an agent? Do we all need one?

Kim: I had already sold 3 books and was on the cusp of my 4th sale before I decided to bring in an agent. I hadn't really looked hard for an agent before that. I'd been doing pretty well on my own. But there are some parts of the authoring '"job" I really dislike, and they're exactly the things that an agent can do, specifically: submitting manuscripts and then negotiating the contract once an offer is made.

Kim: So that's the answer to your first question. Number two: how did I find my agent?... It was thru a referral. Many agents DO require referrals: an introduction thru one of their clients, for instance, or -- as in my case -- a recommendation from one of my editors. In fact, it was the very editor considering buying that 4th book, TEN ON THE SLED. I knew from previous conversations as we worked on CROCODADDY together, that she really likes working with agents, so I asked if she could recommend anyone.

Kim: She recommended two. One is was very kind in her response, but wasn't really interested in repping any more picture book authors right now; the other turned out to be a great fit. We have similar tastes, and she likes my work. So she signed me and she did a great job negotiating that offer that was on the table when I brought her in.

Kim: (Not all agents require referrals, and many take e-queries, which is a nice time saver. So just read their submission guidelines on their websites and follow their guidelines.)

Kim: My agent has since negotiated another deal for some sticker books I'll be writing. (Just finalized the manuscript for the first one on Friday. Yay!) It's wonderful having someone else who is better at details than I am. But, of course, I still have to read the whole contract and still keep my ear to the ground for editors and publisher producing books similar to mine. When I see something that might be a good fit, I pass it on to her. In fact, I have a large file if info I had collected about editors over the years. I shared it all with my agent. So even with an agent, I'm still doing many of the things I did all along: networking, researching the market, checking out new books, etc.

Kim: Your 4th question: Do we all need one? Well, as you can see from my story, I did just fine selling books without an agent. In fact, before those sales, I'm not sure I COULD have gotten one. I think it's probably harder to get an agent than to sell a manuscript, especially if you write picture books, since many agents aren't interested in picture book authors. We're just not as lucrative because we split our royalties with the illustrators, thus lowering the agent's commission as well. So, if you get a chance to meet with an agent at a conference, I would definitely encourage you to make the most of that opportunity. But I would also recommend that you pursue selling directly to publishers. After all, you get to keep all the money that way!

Jan: And that's all folks. My thanks to the brilliant Kim Norman for sharing her time with us and to everyone who come with questions in hand and made this a super workshop. Yay!