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Transcripts

"Revision: The REAL Work of Writing" with Kim Siegelson.

Thursday, November 8, 2001

Moderator is Kristi Holl, author of 24 juvenile books and 150+ stories and articles, as well as the web editor for this site.

Kim is Kim Siegelson, author of several award winning books. She won an American Librarian Association (ALA) Award in 2000, has been a writer-in-residence at the Disney Institute in Orlando, and was Georgia's Writer of the Year in 2000. Her newest picture book, as well as a novel, are upcoming from Hyperion Publishers. Her books include In the Time of the Drums, Escape South!, Dancing the Ring Shout, and others.

Interviews are held on Thursday nights: 9-11 p.m. Atlantic/Canada, 8-10 p.m. Eastern, 7-9 Central, 6-8 Mountain, and 5-7 Pacific

Moderator: Good evening, everyone! Welcome to tonight's interview! I'm your moderator and web editor, Kristi Holl, and tonight I have with me Kim Siegelson, who will be talking about "Revision: The REAL Work of Writing." Kim has written several award winning books, and won an American Librarian Association (ALA) Award in 2000. Her books include In the Time of the Drums, Escape South!, Dancing the Ring Shout, and others. Welcome, Kim!

Kim: Hi, Kristi. Thanks for inviting me.

Moderator: Kim, can you tell us how you got started writing?

Kim: Well, I started when I was pregnant with my first son. I took a short course of 6 weeks at my local university's adult education classes which taught me enough to get started. It took another 2 years of practice and attending workshops and reading everything I could get my hands on before I got my first acceptance. That was about 10 years ago, and writing has become a career that I've been able to do at home. And it's been fun, too!

Moderator: What types of writing have you done (so that we know what kinds of revising you've had to do?)

Kim: I write pretty broadly. I've published short stories, articles, novels, picture books, and easy readers for children, as well as poetry and articles for adults.

SaraJ: Will we need to have different revising skills if we do picture books than if we write nonfiction or novels?

Kim: Good question, SaraJ. I've found that picture books end up with more revisions because they need to be so tight. I think the language you choose for them has to fill a great many functions in just a few words, so I truly labor over each one. With novels you need stamina. I usually revise them from front to back fewer times, but I do small revisions in waves as I go, redoing a portion of old material and then forging ahead into new material.

Moderator: Considering the marketing challenges today, how important is it that a new writer learn to revise thoroughly? I mean, isn't that an editor's job to shape the manuscript with the author?

Kim: I think one of the best compliments I've received from an editor was that I'm a great reviser. What she meant was that she could trust me to produce a good final product. Editors are so busy with non-editing tasks (administrative roles) that they have less time to do tedious line editing. A benefit of securing an editor's trust is that they will accept a novel in progress sometimes because they know you will be able to work with them to perfect it. And magazine editors will sometimes request work from writers whom they know can polish their work well.

SaraJ: To be a great reviser, did you also have to be really fast in getting it done for her?

Kim: Not necessarily. When you are working with an editor you are aware of their time frame and so it's easy to pace yourself. I have one novel I've been revising for a year, so I've made certain to keep the editor informed of where I'm at every few months.

Moderator: Do editors ever rewrite for you or without telling you?

Kim: None that I've worked with. The closest has been some suggestions in the margins, pretty much like some instructors do. I usually evaluate those suggestions and decide what I think. An editor's job is to help a writer tell her story in the best possible way. Editors usually don't want to take over the writing; they just want a good story or article.

Moderator: In your opinion, what is the purpose of revising? To check spelling and grammar? Fix word length?

Kim: Revision has many facets. I think the main purpose of it is to work toward clarity of purpose and character. Certainly spelling and grammar are very important, but that is nuts and bolts. I think my first task is to make sure I've told the story well, with good focus. With articles I look at things a bit differently than with stories, though.

Moderator: When do you yourself begin to revise? Do you write the whole rough draft first, and then revise? Or do you revise as you go along? Why do you prefer the method you use?

Kim: With picture books I write the entire first draft. This is also true of short stories and articles. With the shorter format it's easier for me to get it all down and then go back over it carefully. With picture books I begin by looking at the story flow and the language since they are often read aloud. Sometimes I read tricky passages aloud to see how they work. I then evaluate the language, asking myself if there is a better word to describe or evoke a particular feeling I'm working toward.

With novels it is different. I tend to write the first chapter over and over until I feel like I have a solid base, then I take off running. As I write each subsequent chapter I reevaluate what I've already done, making sure that everything is meshing together. I begin my mornings by rereading the last few pages. I tweak here and there and then move into the new material by rereading a few pages. I can get myself back into the story quickly and easily that way. After I've finished the entire novel I put it away for awhile and then go front to back. At this point I'm looking for different things. I think everyone ends up with his or her own best method. These two different ones, based on length of the work, have just worked for me so far.

Tonia: Do you usually "shelve" your projects for a time after the first draft, before beginning revisions? And what is a good amount of time to let something "chill"?

Kim: Well, Tonia, I do shelve the work for a while. I put it away for between 5 days and 4 weeks. Longer books get put away for a longer time because I've usually been so immersed that I'm ready to put it away for a while and work on other things. Short stories and articles I put away for a shorter time. Picture books are somewhere in the middle.

wendymh: When I ask my son to read one of my humorous stories, I ask him if he laughed out loud as a check. What are the checks on character development in stories? Is it important to have tears or great emotion or evoke action?

Kim: Good questions. I think the most important thing to look at in your characters is are they strong and memorable? By strong, I mean do they own their story, or could you have plopped any old person in there without it mattering? Besides being strong and memorable, I hope the character is someone that kids can relate to and empathize with. You want a character that's human and humane. You want kids to "recognize" this character and want to hang out with him. You want your character to be authentic. We are adults writing for kids, so sometimes our own voices and opinions start to spout out of our characters' mouths. This is something to be aware of in a revision. Is this something a real kid would do or say, or is this me--the grown-up?

wendymh: How can you tell when a character is fully developed?

Kim: This has to do with dimension. To build dimension in your characters means to humanize them. They can't be "paul perfects" nor should they be "evil evans." You know your character is developed when they feel like real people to you. You know how they think, what makes them mad, what they want most, what they are afraid of, what would happen if they are put into different situations. It takes time to develop a character, but it is crucial in writing for kids because most kids' stories are character driven. Kids prefer books about recognizable characters with concerns they understand and relate to. As a writer you must take the time to build your character into a recognizable and complex human.

Moderator: On stories that are too long, where do you start cutting? (Is it different for short stories and picture books?)

Kim: Here's where I start. First I look at adverbs, especially the "ly" adverbs because that's a sign I've been "telling and not showing." I really try to get rid of most of the adverbs. Then I look at adjectives. Often there are too many that aren't necessary. In places with two or three, I cut to one or two. Here's another quick trick I learned from a friend called the "Magic 2." In big paragraphs see if you can delete 2 sentences. Then go over each sentence and see if you can delete 2 words. For short sentences see if you can delete 2 syllables.

Moderator: When doing revisions on an early draft, what are the most important things to keep in mind?

Kim: This will be a long answer so get ready! 1. Do you have a strong beginning? Does it make your reader want to continue reading? 2. Is your writing focused? Am I true to the expectations I set up in the beginning, or did I get sidetracked? 3. Is there a logical flow with each new idea or scene building from the last? Are my transitions between scenes smooth? With a picture book, have I given enough movement between scenes for an illustrator to have a variety of locations to work with so illustrations aren't static? 4. Can I tighten up my work by cutting extra words or scenes? (the Magic 2!) 5. In fiction is my main character strong, believable, distinct, and at the center of the story's action, or is he passive, bland and being swept along by things he can't control with little resistance? Are my characters' motivations in keeping with who he/she is?

Moderator: How do you know where to start revising if you see weak characters, and a dull plot, and lack of description? It can be overwhelming. Is there a particular order to follow when revising?

Kim: Here's what I do. Look first at character and conflict because they are crucial and interconnected. As I've said, a strong and memorable character is a requirement, and so is conflict. The conflict should be both internal and external, but it's the internal conflict that provides your character with the opportunity for growth and change. External conflict is usually seen as things the character must overcome, the obstacles in his/her way. After character and conflict I look at description. Prudent use of description is something I look at in the second go-round of my revisions. These are the details that will give your story resonance in the end. Have you put in enough to build a world for your character without sounding too flowery or melodramatic or precious?

Moderator: What if you're writing nonfiction, either a book or article? Where do you start revising in that case?

Kim: Easier, I think! I begin by asking myself if my article is well focused. Have I narrowed things down enough that I can give more than general information. Is the information I've given interesting without sounding like a textbook? Is it something kids are interested in, or is it too adult or too esoteric? Finally I look at the way it's organized. It should flow well and follow a logical path.

Moderator: Do you have any kind of checklist you go by to make sure you've revised all the story or article elements?

Kim: I don't, but I think it's a good idea for beginning writers. I suppose I do have a sort of checklist in my head. I've just listed several here. If it's helpful, I think posting a list of the things I've talked about here would be good.

loulou: When do you know when to stop revising? How many drafts are enough?

nighttime: I have revised some stories so much, I end up with a completely different one than what I started with.

Kim: You know, loulou, this might be a personal preference thing. Here's what I think, and it might answer your question as well, nighttime. Do one revision to clean things up, the grammar, spelling, etc. While you're doing this you should be aware of how the story is working: the characters, conflict, dialogue, setting, flow. Make some notes as you move along, anything you think of. Then go back and rework those spots where you've made your notes. Now put it aside again and work on something else. On your third go-round you want to make sure your changes from before are still working, and note anything else that hits you as "false" or "dull," but at the same time look for theme. Theme is elusive and doesn't usually show up until late in revision (at least for me), but it's the thing that gives your story resonance. Ask yourself if you see any recurring elements. Do they come together and twist into some sort of statement? What are the underlying concerns? Try to bring out what you "meant" without actually stating it. For things you've just worked on too long, try this technique I learned from Natalie Goldberg: On short stories and articles try rewriting from memory. Rewrite all of it without looking at your original draft. Don't be afraid! Think of it as an exercise, but I think you'll be surprised at how much fluff gets tossed out this way. You end up with the core of what you started out with, what your original intent was. It works also with novels. You simply try rewriting a chapter or a page from memory. Give it a try, especially if you've polished your story to sawdust! Revise character and conflict first, then plot and structure a close second, then the "grace notes" of detail, description, and finally theme.

lfg50: When does it become too much revision to a story? Can you overdo revising?

Kim: Yes, you can revise too much. There's the story of the diamond cutter who wanted a perfect stone and he cut and polished so long that he ended up with diamond dust. I think this happens most often when you obsess over your story, don't take a breather, and don't get outside comments. I love doing at least one revision without comment from "outsiders". It's like having your own beach without anyone else's footprints in the sand. But it's good to get other opinions, too. Just take them with a grain of salt, and consider the source. Get opinions from someone you trust, and someone who knows children's books. Make friends with your local children's librarian, or find a critique group of fellow children's writers.

Blue Phantom: Have you ever written a final draft that you feel is just fine without further revision, but your editor doesn't agree?

Kim: Nope. Of course I always assume it's the best I can make it, or I wouldn't send it out. But I look forward to getting my editor's opinion because I know she is absolutely familiar with children's books and I know she wants me to look good. That's not to say I've never argued about editorial suggestions. Sometimes, after careful consideration, I've decided I simply can't part with something she's wanted to cut, or I felt her vision didn't mesh with mine. What I do without fail is try it her way first. After all, if I don't like what I see I can hit "delete" and go back to my way. I can tell you this, you have less leeway to "argue" in the beginning. But if your editor learns to trust your judgment and knows that you are open-minded and fair about her suggestions, then she will go with you more often than not.

Blue Phantom: I had to make some character revisions in my YA novel that I'm writing with ICL. I found, however, that as I made the revisions my plot changed so much that I ended up with a whole different ending to the story, far from what I had originally outlined. Do you find the same to be true in your work? Does it bother you?

Kim: It doesn't bother me if the story is better for it. Sometimes what you end up with is truer to what should have been there in the first place. Sometimes you start out trying to force a particular ending that you had in mind, but as your characters develop and the story moves that ending doesn't really work anymore. Yes, I've had that happen, but the results so far have been surprisingly good.

PMDJ: Have you ever withdrawn a manuscript or book because you felt the requested revision would completely change the point you were trying to make in the story?

Kim: Unfortunately, yes. That is so painful. It happened with one picture book. The editor loved everything but the ending, and I just didn't see it her way. We tried to work it out, but I ended up pulling it in the end. Here's the kicker: that book still isn't sold and I've wondered if I should rethink her suggestion!

Moderator: How important is it to get critiques of your work during the revision process? Do you have a critique group or partner for this?

Kim: Early on I did have a group and they were very helpful. I must say now, though, that I think getting opinions in the middle of writing can be hurtful too. Usually I'm sort of winging it, a little unsure. It's best for me if I stick to my own vision early on without outside influences. I need to follow my own vision without getting tangled up with comments that make me doubt myself. That said, I also think that when you first start out and have little experience, it's great to get positive support from someone who is familiar with children's books, and who understands a writer's struggle.

Moderator: If you belong to a critique group and get mixed messages about what needs "fixing" in your manuscript, how do you decide which advice to accept and what to ignore?

Kim: I always listen to all advice as politely as possible. Then I look at what might be the common elements in that advice. Maybe they gave different advice about aspects of my character, but together that advice points to a problem with character. Maybe what I need to look at is the broad picture of their advice. In all things trust your own instincts, but don't be resistant to trying different things. I always take a deep breath and think of those comments as suggestions only. I can do what I want, so why not rework as an exercise? No harm done.

Moderator: Some editorial comments are vague. What does it mean when someone says your story is too slight, or the plot is thin, or a character needs dimension?

Kim: That vagueness is the editor trying not to push you or change your vision of things, but it sometimes just ends up making you tear out your hair. A slight story usually means that it lacks energy or seems bland and familiar, the characters and plot don't sustain the reader, and there is no depth or meaning. Rev things up with more active language (watch passive verbs), fresh visuals, a dynamic main character, tension and a clearly defined theme. A thin plot is one that is predictable, without struggle. Poorly defined characters need additional humanizing characteristics and traits. He may be too good or purely bad. I see this most often in secondary characters, but also in main characters.

Moderator: What do you do if you've revised something so many times that you're sick of working on it?

Kim: Put it away! Don't look at the thing again for at least two weeks. Do some marketing work, make lists of publishers you want to approach, read some good children's books that are current, look through children's magazines, go to a writer's workshop (it doesn't have to be one for children's writers), garden or travel, start working on a completely different project. If you've just finished a novel, work on a picture book or easy reader. If you've finished a nonfiction piece, try writing in a journal or begin research on a new topic.

Moderator: How do you judge when a manuscript is finished enough to submit?

Kim: If it pleases you to read it. If you've put it away and pulled it out again and it surprises you. You ask yourself, "Wow, did I really write this? It's darn good!" That's when you send it out with a fond farewell and move on to something else!

Moderator: Are there any writing how-to books that you've found helpful for learning to revise?

Kim: Many that address different aspects of writing, but I'll put down the ones that I think are most helpful and broad: REVISION: A CREATIVE APPROACH TO WRITING AND REWRITING FICTION by David Kaplant, GETTING THE WORDS RIGHT by Theodore Cheney, EDIT YOURSELF by Bruce Ross-Larson, and the "Tool Box" section of Steven King's book ON WRITING.

Moderator: I think I'll add my favorites here too: SELF-EDITING FOR FICTION WRITERS: HOW TO EDIT YOURSELF INTO PRINT by Renni Browne and Dave King, BEGINNINGS, MIDDLES & ENDS by Nancy Kress, and BEYOND STYLE: MASTERING THE FINER POINTS OF WRITING by Gary Provost.

And now, I'm sorry to have to stop here, but we're out of time now. Kim, thank you so much for coming tonight and sharing your expertise with us. We know we have to rewrite and revise, but it can be daunting sometimes! Thanks for simplifying this for us!

Kim: It's been fun! My pleasure.

Moderator: Just a reminder: two weeks from tonight is Thanksgiving already! Can you believe it? We won't have an interview that night, and I hope you'll all be stuffing yourselves with your family. I know I plan to be! Our next interview in this room will be December 6, when Carol Gorman will join us to talk about "Successful School Visits," how and when to go about doing them, what to do when you're there, and much more. In the meantime, safe travels, everyone! And Happy Thanksgiving early!

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