Rx for Writers

Transcripts

Thursday, April 27, 2000

MODERATOR is Kristi Holl, Web Editor for the Institute's web site. Kristi is author of twenty-three middle grade novels, 100 articles and short stories, and has taught writing at the Institute of Children's Literature for fifteen years.

Kay is Kay Cornelius, author of seven full-length historical romances, one historical novella, and two contemporary novels, as well as many articles. Three nonfiction books for children will be published in 2000.

Names color coded in blue are audience members who had questions.

Interviews are scheduled for Thursday evenings: 8 Eastern, 7 Central, 6 Mountain, and 5 Pacific.

MODERATOR: Good evening, everyone! I'm glad you're able to join us tonight to hear Kay Cornelius discuss "Historical Research." Native Tennessean Kay Cornelius has lived in Alabama since l958. A former teacher, Kay is the author of seven full-length historical romances, one historical novella, and two contemporary novels, as well as numerous articles. Three nonfiction books for children will be published in 2000. Kay really enjoys researching history, and she'll be sharing unique ways to relive the past for fact and fiction. Welcome, Kay!

Kay: Thanks. It's good to be here.

MODERATOR: Kay, you've written historical fiction and nonfiction, for both adults and children. Has history always fascinated you?

Kay: Not really. I had good teachers in college, but what really made the connection for me was hearing stories of my and my husband's family history.

MODERATOR: How did you make the switch from writing for adults to writing for children?

Kay: It wasn't as hard as I thought, because I have grandchildren about the age of the group I was writing for. Also, my daughter teaches fourth grade and as a former teacher myself, I know what kids like to read.

MODERATOR: I know that you have books due out this spring, this summer, and this coming fall. Can you tell us a bit about them?

Kay: My first nonfiction book for children, THE SUPREME COURT, part of Chelsea House's "Know Your Government" series, is now available. Coming this summer in their "Women Who Win" series is a biography of basketball star Chamique Holdsclaw. Both are for the 10-12 year old age level. It will be followed in the winter by a book for younger children on Francis Marion, one of the "Heroes of the Revolution" books. Chelsea House sells primarily to schools and libraries, but THE SUPREME COURT is listed on Amazon.com.

MODERATOR: Kay, just so we know exactly what we're discussing tonight, could you define both "historical" and "research" for us? We may not all be on the same track.

Kay: To some people, history is anything that happened before they were born, but for the purposes of publishing, it's any time period prior to 1900. Research is anything a writer does to make sure that what s/he writes is accurate. It's not limited to historical works, either. Every writer ought to get the facts right, or the readers will quickly catch the mistakes.

MODERATOR: Is researching for nonfiction history different from researching for historical fiction?

Kay: Not really, except of course for fiction we are more interested in the culture and costumes, etc.

SaraJ: How many sources do you find to "prove" your facts?

Kay: One, if it's good enough. I have to submit a photocopy of the page where I find a fact.

MODERATOR: How do you take historical facts and turn them into fiction? (How much liberty can you take with the facts?)

Kay: The old saying that "truth is stranger than fiction" is really true! So many of the stories I have discovered about what people in the past really did are much more amazing than anything I could ever dream up. I don't use the people's real names in fiction, but their situations.

imhopeful: Are there rules for fictionalizing a historical person's story? Do I need permission from descendants in order to add fictional dialogue, etc?

Kay: It depends on what you are writing, and what the editors will allow. You do not need permission from relatives per se, but I would make sure that what I had "real" people say fit their characters and personalities as well as the time period. Too many writers try to put 20th century language into "old" mouths.

MODERATOR: At what point in writing does a piece go from being "creative nonfiction" to "historical fiction"? Are there guidelines, or is it every writer's own judgment call?

Kay: It's obvious that no one will really know what George said to Martha when he returned to Mt. Vernon, but as long as your characters are real persons, you must be careful not to invent too much for them to say or do. Usually a writer gets around this with a foreword to the effect that some things might not be strictly true, but are in keeping with the person/situations.

MODERATOR: When doing research, most writers use primarily libraries and the Internet. Do you have a preference?

Kay: There was no Internet when I started researching. My first book, set in 1740, I researched in one month at the local library's Heritage Room. Since then, I have used many other ways to research, and of course I use the Net.

janshltz: Have you ever been published by a state Historical Society? Do they have different requirements than mainstream publishers?

Kay: I have had an article in the TENNESSEE HISTORICAL QUARTERLY, and it had to have footnotes and be well documented. But the writing itself is not that different. Even scholarly journals are now trying to get writers to adopt a more conversational tone, rather than dull academic talk.

kmadsen: When you said that history was anything prior to 1900 for publishing purposes, what exactly does that mean? Could you not write a historical fiction set during World War I?

Kay: It would depend on your publisher. For romance novels, there seem to be a few "hot" periods, and anything else is ignored. I have read some good books set in WW I, and to me that is an historical period. WW II isn't to me because I lived through it!

MODERATOR: You once said that experiencing something yourself is the most accurate way to research. What exactly do you mean? Can you give some examples?

Kay: We can't time travel yet, but if you can get into a place that still has some resemblance to the period you're writing about, it's much easier to imagine what the characters would have seen, smelled, tasted, and felt. I was a docent at a house museum dating to 1819 and furnished with things from the 1835-65 time period. Going there was like stepping back into the past. And you should never write about women who wear hoop skirts without trying one on (men excepted, but few of them write such stuff anyway!)

bernie: Wouldn't 20 years ago be history for younger children? How do we know what editors define as historical?

Kay: Editors will tell you. Yesterday is history to some kids...they wake up in a new world every day! But if you will look in bookstores, you will get some notion of what eras are considered historical.

MODERATOR: You also said that it was important to "immerse both the writer and the reader into whatever time period has been chosen." How do you find sources--beyond the written word--to do this? And in a similar vein . . .

Patty: Do you research primarily from books, or do you do on-site research? Can you talk about some of the non-book research you do?

Kay: This is the fun part! Libraries have video tapes that cover a range of times and places. The History Channel is a fascinating resource. The Society for Creative Anachronism has all sorts of information about what people wore and ate and the dances they did, for many different time periods. There is scarcely a war that does not have its re-creators. These people are usually willing to show off their authentic clothing, uniforms, weapons, etc. I also use networking on writers' groups; nearly always if I have a question about something, they will know the answer or steer me to someone who does.

Carole k: How would you contact the Society for Creative Anachronism?

Kay: Type it in a search engine. They have a web site at http://www.sca.org/ Same for any other group--there is a web site of re-enactors for Revolutionary and Civil War battles, as well as the French and Indian War, etc.

MODERATOR: I'm backing up a bit to discuss a couple of points in more detail. Then we'll talk about more avenues of research, and then how to organize it all. But first...

Blue Phantom: How far can you stray from the real historical event when writing historical fiction?

Kay: Well, you have to stay true to the facts as they are known. It's more a matter of selection than anything else. As you know, a battle always looks one way to the victor and another way to the vanquished. I use the facts as a framework for the story, not the main point.

imhopeful: I read somewhere that 20 years ago is not considered historical, yet it's not contemporary enough for today's kids, so don't write about this era in fiction. Is this true?

Kay: There is some evidence that every generation is a little fascinated by the things their parents did. Right now, there's a miniseries about the Seventies that might be of passing interest to younger viewers, but the trouble is that something written then as "contemporary" might not be at all interesting to readers thirty years later.

MODERATOR: The following isn't a question, but it fascinates me!

ghanson: If you want an example of straying from the facts within a historical framework, read Harry Turledove's The Guns of the South -- where Lee won the Civil War!

kmadsen: So how do you get politically correct about Indians in history? Can you depict them scalping settlers or not?

Kay: Depends on how bloody you want your book to be. I try not to reconstruct facts to suit the changing opinions of today's readers. If a scalping took place (and many did), one can also report what happened to incite that action.

MODERATOR: When you're building a plot around an historical period, what kinds of things need to be researched?

Kay: Architecture, clothing, food, recreation, education of the times--anything the characters might find themselves needing to do or know. There is no need to go overboard and find out things that will not contribute in any way to the story, just because they are interresting to you as the researcher. That is a huge pitfall of doing historical research--know everything, but tell only what contributes to your story.

MODERATOR: If you do "hands on" research in all these areas (visiting buildings and locations, making the food etc.) doesn't it take forever? How much time to you allot to research before you begin the actual writing?

Kay: Most historical writers research constantly, whether or not they are in the process of writing a particular work. As I said earlier, I spent a whole month researching for my first book. With others, the time has been shorter or longer, but usually you can proceed once you have the basic facts and stop to research on a "need to know" basis. Some things can be glossed over or left out if the research proves to be too time-consuming.

janshltz: Do you visit the sites in your books and pick up 'vibes'?

Kay: I have visited some in person, and yes, there are "vibes" in those places.

Patty: Are you saying it's not necessary to know everything? Or that you should know everything but only include what's necessary in the book?

Kay: No one knows everything about anything. Know as much as you can because that gives you insight into the characters' lives. But don't stop the action to explain how a spinning wheel was made or how flax is hackled just because you have learned to do both in the interests of historical accuracy!

Patty: How long do you usually research before you begin writing? How do you know when to stop researching?

Kay: It depends on the subject. For Francis Marion's biography, it took me longer to do the research than it did to write the manuscript. When you feel that you have enough facts and anecdotes to flesh out the historical skeleton into a living, breathing person, it is time to start writing. However, I have had times when I was so interested in a subject that I continued to research it even after the book in question had been published.

scsinykin: A month seems a terribly short period of time to me!

MODERATOR: I was thinking the exact same thing!

Kay: Well, I wasn't as exact in those days as I am now. But if all you do for four weeks is look up a particular period in history, you will learn a lot about it.

stanton: Do you research two different periods at the same time? Or does it get confusing?

Kay: Stanton, I have had two periods going at once with no problem.

Blue Phantom: Do you worry much about writing erroneous material when there is very little known about the subject? For instance, I read a children's book once that said Indians lived in hollowed out trees--that's just not possible unless the trees were sequoias.

Kay: I haven't encountered that problem yet. Usually if something is erroneous, it's because someone either invented something or an error was reprinted. In my first book I invented a portable "chalkboard" for a schoolmaster. No one has ever caught me!

janshltz: Have readers ever challenged you about historical facts? I know sometimes there's more than one version of events.

Kay: Not that I know about. I am very careful to be accurate, and that reduces the possibility of being challenged.

kmadsen: You mentioned that we should not put 20th century dialogue into the characters' mouths of other time periods. So how can a writer "hear" the language of the time she is writing about?

Kay: One way is to read as much as you can that was written during that time. Diaries, for example. Today I spent several hours at our library reading the diary a woman kept during the Civil War. It was almost like she was talking to me. In cases where you cannot do this, at least make sure that the people don't use slang or too-modern expressions. Just as a few dialect words can give the effect of a speech pattern without confusing the reader, so can a few words and phrases give the flavor of another era.

scsinykin: How do you know how people spoke, particularly if they spoke another language?

Kay: Good question. As you know, the written word and the spoken word are two different animals. This is where GOOD movies (those done with care) can be helpful. The PBS miniseries of THE SCARLET LETTER is a good example, as are other productions (such as ROMEO AND JULIET) that use the best research to flesh out the times and characters being portrayed.

ghanson: Is there any time period left that doesn't have information readily available?

Kay: Not that I know about, but some is easier to find than others. Dinosaurs don't make very good characters, do they? (But then, they were pre-history so we can scratch that.) CLAN OF THE CAVE BEAR and other books are proof that any period is fair game, I suppose.

MODERATOR: Can you suggest a solution to the following concern?

scsinykin: When we use other books as resources, we ASSUME that the info therein is accurate. We are not aware of when the author has fictionalized something--an incident that created great problems for friends of mine on their book involving a young lighthouse keeper.

Kay: When possible, check a second source. I discovered an error in two books that happened because one writer confused malaria with yellow fever and the second writer merely copied the first, assuming it was reliable.

imhopeful: How do you find all these books at a library, like diaries, etc? I live in a rural area close to small towns only. How do we find this information?

Kay: The Internet has many diaries and lots of sources...use your favorite search engine and you will be surprised what you can find. I downloaded the whole text of Parson Weems' book about Francis Marion from the Internet. I was told last week that a diary kept by a man from the same unit as a relative during the Civil War has been put on a web site and is available. I also read a first-person narrative of a lieutenant who accompanied many of the Cherokees on the Trail of Tears. You can also use the Interlibrary loan; I have gotten rare things from it.

janshltz: Regarding characters in historical fiction: Is there an advantage in using real characters and fictionalizing their words and actions, or better to create a character and use the history as a backdrop?

Kay: I feel that any real people should be very minor characters, but having references to them made by the characters, or perhaps a cameo walk-on can add an air of authenticity. In my novella, I used Davy Crockett, who was a scout in my great-great-great- grandfather's company in the Creek Indian Wars, but the editor changed his name to something else because they didn't want any real characters in a work of fiction.

MODERATOR: I have many questions still to get to in the moderator box, but I want to move ahead--at least briefly--and discuss some nuts and bolts of what to do with all this information...

scsinykin: When researching for historical fiction, what is your method of organizing research information?

Kay: Coming from an academic background and having taught The Research Paper to hundreds of high school students, I practice what I preached. I use 3x5 or 5x7 cards, one fact or passage to a card, keyed to the info as to where I got the information. That way, I can arrange and rearrange the order of the information, while always knowing from whence it came.

gvl: How do you include Internet information (and other unusal sources) in a bibliography? What is the format?

Kay: Believe it or not, there is a reference book out there now that shows how to document these things. Since I have to send photocopies for my children's books, I just print the pages from the Internet, and the attribution usually shows up in the heading.

Bernadette: Just wondering, what is the difference between your novel and your novella?

Kay: Length. The short historicals are around 50,000 words. The novella was 18,000, and the long historical (TWIN WILLOWS) was over 100,000 words.

Patty: For a biography, did you use primary sources? Journals, interviews with relatives, etc.?

Kay: I have done two biographies. The living person was much harder to do because I could not get through to talk to her in person (she has so many demands on her time, and there are so many weirdos out there that might not be honest with her), but I did read all I could that had been written, and I talked to some of her relatives. I did not use the conversations with the relatives in the bibliography. For the other person, I read several bios, and had to select the information that I thought children would like the best. The publisher wants at least one or two sources to have a 1999 copyright date so that meant using newspaper/magazine articles.

lka: How much time each day did you spend researching?

Kay: It doesn't work exactly like that. I research until I have found all I think I'll need, then when I start writing I nearly always go back and look for more. I don't stay at it more than a few hours at a time, because that gets old!

MODERATOR: Since all the research takes so long, do you use it for more than one project? If so, how?

Kay: Yes. That has been quite serendipitous. My second book had a real man who was the commander of the force that occupied Huntsville in 1862. He was a fascinating person, and even after the book was finished, I did more research, until I had enough to write a scholarly article, which ALABAMA HERITAGE published. In going to Cincinnati and reading original letters he wrote while in Huntsville, I discovered some information that no one here knew. I also proved my original surmise that this man was the "learned astronomer" that Walt Whitman mentioned in his poem of the same name. It was a real thrill to make a connection no one had apparently ever made.

MODERATOR: That's fascinating! Backing up to an earlier comment you made...

Hermione: Can you give an example of a story in which you used a battle and introduced fictional characters?

Kay: My books don't have many battles as such, but the Siege of Bryan's Station, Kentucky in 1782 was a real event in which my great-great-great-great-grandfather had a part. In TWIN WILLOWS, I relate the story of that siege, using the names of many of the real people who were there then (including Richard Johnson, a babe in a cradle set afire by the Indians' arrows, who grew up to hate all Indians and supposedly killed Tecumseh and became vice-president due to that claim), but I didn't use my relatives' names.

bernie: When you are thinking of new work, do you start with a character or a time period?

Kay: I have done both, but I like certain time periods better than others and feel more comfortable with them, having already done so much research (such as the 1780 period and the Civil War), so I am more likely to take the period and find someone exciting to live there.

Bernadette: Have you (or would you do) a fictional story of a true happening and rewrite it to how you would like it to be?

Kay: I have not done that yet, but if it would work out in the confines of the plot and be sensible, I might. But that would be cheating, in a way. And one thing I have always insisted on for myself is that I stay true to the times.

JAMES55CLINTON: Can ancient nordic sagas or legends be considered historical?

Kay: Certainly. I find them fascinating myself, even though, like the ILIAD and ODYSSEY, such works are often neglected as sources of rather dramatic action.

kmadsen: Have you ever included looking through census records for names of characters or occupations?

Kay: Good question, and that's a very good source. I have also gotten a ton of information from browsing through family histories (not my own, mind you!) in the public library. Many years ago the Boones wrote a family history (I mean the Daniel Boone family here) that has several chapters devoted to a detailed description of "pioneer ways" and another family history had a detailed account from a woman who was captured by Indians and saw one child killed. She kept her son with her and was adopted by the chief and then ransomed for $200--a huge sum in 1780--and walked through the wilderness to get back to "civilization." The survivng son became a scout for Jim Bridger and was killed by Indians at Yellowstone years later. I was just browsing when I found that account.

Patty: Would you say you use more personal historical sources--like diaries and family histories--or more scholarly sources?

Kay: I like the personal sources when I can find them, especially for fiction. But scholarly sources are helpful too. I track down a subject or a time period any way I can.

janshltz: Would oral histories you might gather from people qualify as 'research', even if it's not been authenticated or written in books?

Kay: Yes, as long as you document the speaker and give the date and place of the interview.

imhopeful: Am I right that Laura Ingalls Wilder's books are classified as historical fiction? Why is this? I thought these stories were true.

Kay: They are based on her recollections of her childhood on the prairie, but I believe she used some fictional material, perhaps. She was not writing an autobiography as such, but more a somewhat fictionalized memoir.

MODERATOR: The following is a thought-provoking question--reminds me of today's news shows and newspapers...

Bernadette: When researching, aren't there any "happy findings" to be found?

Kay: Yes, and it's always nice when real-life stories turn out to have happy endings. Many do, and even the ones that don't provide us with a sense of the drama and hardships that those who went before us had so that we could enjoy the advantages we have today.

bernie: I read somewhere that many areas of history were glossed over or reported in a prejudicial way. How do you decide when researching which are true reportings rather than prejudicial ones?

Kay: The best way is to use many different sources, and then consider what ax each of them might have had to grind. Newspapers were not always fair and impartial, by any means. Reading official documents of historical events is tedious, but it provides more balanced insights to some things.

MODERATOR: Kay, have any of your books gone out of print?

Kay: Unfortunately, the first crop is now out of print--that's the bad news. The good news is that they will all be available electronically in the near future.

SaraJ: I saw in an SCBWI Bulletin about something called "backinprint." What is that? Is that what you're talking about?

Kay: No, "backinprint" is another way that writers who have the rights to their material can place it for purchase on the Internet. That is different from the electronic publishers who scan the text and give it a new cover (the writer does not own the copyright to the covers) and then sell in in e-form.

MODERATOR: Do you sell books online from your own web site?

Kay: I don't have my own web site, but I am a part of the Heart of Dixie Romance Writers' web site and the Barbour Heartsong Presents site. Both have a link to my e-mail which you can use if you like.

MODERATOR: I'm sorry to interrupt here, but I'm afraid we're out of time. Thank you so much, Kay, for joining us tonight and giving us such practical, concrete help on the topic of historical research.

Kay: I have enjoyed it...and the storms seemed to have gone away. Good-bye!

MODERATOR: We have a slight chance of plans next week for our Open Forum. Because my "baby" is graduating this year, I (Kristi Holl, your moderator) have a number of concerts and award programs coming up on several Thursday Open Forum nights. For those nights, my friend Mel Boring has agreed to sub for me and field your questions. You're in for a treat with Mel, as those of you know who have heard him speak before here. Besides teaching writing for nearly twenty years, he's a real nonfiction expert, and you can read his previous transcripts to learn more about him. Mel will welcome your questions on writing nonfiction, getting published, juggling family and writing, making time for your writing...and anything else you care to ask. If you have questions you want him to receive ahead of time, just email them to me at the webeditor address in this site, and I'll get them to Mel. And in the meantime, good night, everyone!

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